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Author Topic: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?  (Read 3083 times)

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Offline pita

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If not. why?

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Offline TylerC

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 01:20 PM »
As of now, there are no plans to release the HK 85 in North America. It wasn't designed for the US and would not be able to get UL certification.

Offline Svar

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 04:02 PM »
It wasn't designed for the US and would not be able to get UL certification.
How come disposable junk tools from South Asia can get UL certifications, while top notch Festool saw can't? Mafell does not have a problem selling K85 in US. So the question is: unable or unwilling?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 04:06 PM by Svar »

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 04:36 PM »
It wasn't designed for the US and would not be able to get UL certification.
How come disposable junk tools from South Asia can get UL certifications, while top notch Festool saw can't? Mafell does not have a problem selling K85 in US. So the question is: unable or unwilling?

As far as I know, many, if not all, Mafell tools in the US don't have a UL or CSA certification.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2017, 04:42 PM »
It's a foolish standard when the tools are coming from the EU which has standards at least equal to the US equivalents. If it is good enough for the EU then it is more than adequate for the US. UL certification is a shakedown that only catches the bad guys, but punishes the good ones through forced compliance.

Offline antss

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2017, 04:45 PM »
"and would not be able to get UL certification."

why would UL fail this saw ?   They are usually less stringent that European testing agencies.

On the face of it, that answer sounds like a pile of......................

sawdust  [big grin]


Offline Svar

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 04:58 PM »
As far as I know, many, if not all, Mafell tools in the US don't have a UL or CSA certification.
Does their official dealer (Timberwolf tools) sell 120V K85 without UL certification? Or UL and CSA are not required?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 05:42 PM by Svar »

Offline TylerC

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 05:50 PM »
@antss It shouldn't be surprising that a tool designed and engineered for European markets would pass European regulations but not US regulations. This is one of the most consistent reasons for NAINA.

Offline antss

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 06:13 PM »
Thanks for the deflection @TylerC - but you still didn't answer the question.

What feature, or omitted safety device would keep the saw from passing  UL ?

In the 60-70's German cars weren't designed for the U.S. market and they soon had to have fat bumpers added and then smog accessories to pass U.S. standards that weren't applicable in Europe.  Those were add ons rather than "designed into" the product.  In that case the U.S. was the more stringent standard.

So, what won't pass UL listing and can't easily be solved by capable designers/engineers ?  After a quick look , I don't see anything remarkable about the base saw that would raise an eyebrow - or inspire sales.  - Which I suspect is the real reason you don't have plans to bring to NA.  Looks like an HK55 on steroids.

Offline pita

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2017, 06:54 PM »
As of now, there are no plans to release the HK 85 in North America. It wasn't designed for the US and would not be able to get UL certification.

That's a bummer, just finished awkwardly crosscutting stair treads with my ts75 and a 55" rail. The whole time thinking how great it would be to have a fsk rail on my ts75...maybe they could sell an aftermarket base to convert the TS line for fsk rails.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 07:30 PM »
As far as I know, many, if not all, Mafell tools in the US don't have a UL or CSA certification.
Does their official dealer (Timberwolf tools) sell 120V K85 without UL certification? Or UL and CSA are not required?

Yes.

There is no law requiring UL certification of a tool.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2017, 07:32 PM »
As far as I know, many, if not all, Mafell tools in the US don't have a UL or CSA certification.
Does their official dealer (Timberwolf tools) sell 120V K85 without UL certification? Or UL and CSA are not required?

Yes.

There is no law requiring UL certification of a tool.

There is also a difference between UL listed and UL certified. You'll see different UL labels on different tools. Each label design designates the testing level.

Tom

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2017, 07:44 PM »
It is time some posters take a deep breath.  If you honestly think that FESTOOL will answer some of the questions posted here in a public forum on the internet then you are extremely optimistic.  FESTOOL has long had a policy that they will not discuss internal business or marketing on this forum.

Tom is correct that UL approval is not required by law, but I offer that it is fairly common for insurance carriers to have requirements that are contractual. 

I am not speaking for FESTOOL here but rather from my own experiences.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline vkumar

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2017, 11:23 PM »
It wasn't designed for the US and would not be able to get UL certification.
How come disposable junk tools from South Asia can get UL certifications, while top notch Festool saw can't? Mafell does not have a problem selling K85 in US. So the question is: unable or unwilling?

This.

Also probably the Mafell has ETL certification which is equivalent to the UL certification in the US.
Vijay Kumar
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Offline vkumar

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2017, 11:27 PM »
As far as I know, many, if not all, Mafell tools in the US don't have a UL or CSA certification.
Does their official dealer (Timberwolf tools) sell 120V K85 without UL certification? Or UL and CSA are not required?

Yes.

There is no law requiring UL certification of a tool.

Tom
There is no federal or state law,  However local ordinances and permitting process requires UL, or ETL certification. required by insurance companies indirectly for( fire) safety among other things.
Vijay Kumar
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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2017, 12:11 AM »
As far as I know, many, if not all, Mafell tools in the US don't have a UL or CSA certification.
Does their official dealer (Timberwolf tools) sell 120V K85 without UL certification? Or UL and CSA are not required?

Yes.

There is no law requiring UL certification of a tool.

Tom
There is no federal or state law,  However local ordinances and permitting process requires UL, or ETL certification. required by insurance companies indirectly for( fire) safety among other things.

Not they don't, show me one policy, ordinance, or local law the requires specifically a U.L. or ETL certification for a portable power tool.

OSHA does no require U.L. either.

Tom

Offline vkumar

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2017, 12:15 AM »
Here is the city of Chicago's requirements.
Chicago

And here is OSHA's take on the various labs.OSHA

« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 01:04 AM by vkumar »
Vijay Kumar
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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2017, 12:23 AM »
As far as I know, many, if not all, Mafell tools in the US don't have a UL or CSA certification.
Does their official dealer (Timberwolf tools) sell 120V K85 without UL certification? Or UL and CSA are not required?

Yes.

There is no law requiring UL certification of a tool.

Tom
There is no federal or state law,  However local ordinances and permitting process requires UL, or ETL certification. required by insurance companies indirectly for( fire) safety among other things.

No they don't, show me one policy, ordinance, or local law in the U.S. that requires specifically a U.L. certification for a portable power tool.

OSHA does no require U.L. either.

Tom

Offline TylerC

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2017, 08:40 AM »
It is time some posters take a deep breath.  If you honestly think that FESTOOL will answer some of the questions posted here in a public forum on the internet then you are extremely optimistic.  FESTOOL has long had a policy that they will not discuss internal business or marketing on this forum.

Tom is correct that UL approval is not required by law, but I offer that it is fairly common for insurance carriers to have requirements that are contractual. 

I am not speaking for FESTOOL here but rather from my own experiences.

Peter

Peter is right. It wouldn't be wise for us to publicly discuss internal details of our business practices. We want to answer things as well as possible (ex. "The HK 85 isn't coming to NA anytime soon because of UL approval"). However, it wouldn't be prudent for us to offer details on topics like this (ex. "The reasons this tool wouldn't is UL approval are ..."). I'm sure you all can appreciate the balance that we have to strike.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 476
Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2017, 09:38 AM »
Here is the city of Chicago's requirements.
Chicago

And here is OSHA's take on the various labs.OSHA

Chicago only requires the certification for electronic control equipment, not power tools. This is inline with the items OSHA specifies.

Offline grbmds

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2017, 10:12 AM »
Isn't the HK55 similar? Not having a need for either of these saws, I don't know what the differences are except for cutting depth? Not sure why people get upset about what Festool offers in the US. As far as I know, no single tool company offers all the tools I need and use in my shop. Why would Festool be any different?
Randy

Offline pita

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2017, 11:33 AM »
It is time some posters take a deep breath.  If you honestly think that FESTOOL will answer some of the questions posted here in a public forum on the internet then you are extremely optimistic.  FESTOOL has long had a policy that they will not discuss internal business or marketing on this forum.

Tom is correct that UL approval is not required by law, but I offer that it is fairly common for insurance carriers to have requirements that are contractual. 

I am not speaking for FESTOOL here but rather from my own experiences.

Peter

Peter is right. It wouldn't be wise for us to publicly discuss internal details of our business practices. We want to answer things as well as possible (ex. "The HK 85 isn't coming to NA anytime soon because of UL approval"). However, it wouldn't be prudent for us to offer details on topics like this (ex. "The reasons this tool wouldn't is UL approval are ..."). I'm sure you all can appreciate the balance that we have to strike.

Thanks for answering my question Tyler...

Offline aloysius

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2017, 08:02 PM »
A Festo/ol 110v 85mm saw isn't available in the north american market, however a Mafell equivalent is.  Personally, I'd take the latter any day, if only for their vastly superior rail system.

Doesn't this answer any possible questions regarding availability rather comprehensively?

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".   Jonathan Swift.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 08:08 PM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline dmick

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2017, 09:48 PM »
I recently spoke with a Festool Employee at length about their tools entering the US market and while other companies have different inspectors and may push for a tool to hit the usa, Festool does not push back on the decision! Other tool manufacturers like Makita and Mafell who seem to get away with whatever tools they want to enter the market here, for some reason Festool is getting a denial or not even trying to get the tool sent here because of a little red tape or amount of work required to have it pass standards......which is a little ridiculous!
Festoolian since 1999

Offline TylerC

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2017, 09:50 PM »
I recently spoke with a Festool Employee at length about their tools entering the US market and while other companies have different inspectors and may push for a tool to hit the usa, Festool does not push back on the decision! Other tool manufacturers like Makita and Mafell who seem to get away with whatever tools they want to enter the market here, for some reason Festool is getting a denial or not even trying to get the tool sent here because of a little red tape or amount of work required to have it pass standards......which is a little ridiculous!

I don't know who you talked to, but don't take one employee's opinion as gospel truth.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2017, 07:43 PM »
I recently spoke with a Festool Employee at length about their tools entering the US market and while other companies have different inspectors and may push for a tool to hit the usa, Festool does not push back on the decision! Other tool manufacturers like Makita and Mafell who seem to get away with whatever tools they want to enter the market here, for some reason Festool is getting a denial or not even trying to get the tool sent here because of a little red tape or amount of work required to have it pass standards......which is a little ridiculous!


As has been mentioned, some companied don't bother getting UL ratings for some, or all, of the tools they sell in the USA. If a manufacturer only expects to sell a small number of that particular tool or model it's not worth the cost. While I'm not sure the exact cost, I've read that it can cost tens of thousands of dollars to have some tools UL rated. If a company is worried about cost, and the cost of liability if they don't get a tool UL rated, they may choose not to sell the tool in the USA.

There are actually a bunch of Makita tools that Makita has never sold in the USA, and others which they stopped selling in the USA. Some of the tools though are still sold in Canada. It may be less costly and or easier to get tools CSA rated than UL rated.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2017, 06:54 AM »
Here is the list of currently accepted NRTLs, of which the most recognizable
s probably UL and second probably CSA, at least here in North America.
As far as I know they are considered equal and interchangeable as far as OSHA
is concerned, meaning that both stamps are not required. CSA certification is
accepted here in the USA w/o having to also obtain the UL cert and the opposite
is true.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

I believe this is the specific UL standard under which portable power tools are covered:
https://standardscatalog.ul.com/standards/en/standard_745-1_2

In addition there are requirements in NFPA70 & NFPA70E (aka NEC) which have to be met.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline dmick

  • Posts: 38
Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2017, 01:17 PM »
In Canada they accept the USA UL Rating?? I thought the CSA was a lot tougher standard?
Festoolian since 1999

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Does anyone know if there will be a U.S. version of the HK85?
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2017, 04:07 PM »
Don't know about Canada, I was referring to OSHA considering them the same or equal in
their eyes. Didn't mean to imply the Canada accepted the UL label. I have no idea if they do.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?