Having trouble with your Festool power tool? Well, we're here to help you. Before posting to the forum, give us a chance to diagnose and resolve your issue. In the U.S. and Canada, call us toll-free at 888-337-8600 on Monday-Friday between 8a-5p EST or contact us via email at service@festoolusa.com. For other countries, please visit http://www.festool.com for contact information for your local Festool service department.

Author Topic: Festool price rant  (Read 8735 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline backhoebb

  • Posts: 12
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 06:18 PM »
I think jg summed up many of our thoughts precisely. as Festool prices continue to rise I will be either more inlined towards brands like maffel and metabo. expensive but with real quality to show for it.


 I am not offended by Festool doing this, I'm concerned the company is going to force us, actual users, to look elsewhere for tools. I've always believed in paying for quality,  buy my hand tools on my vacations to Switzerland. but I'm sorry, 720 is just too much for a mft3, this goes for more and more of there tools to.

I am a long time believer and Festool and will continue to buy there "gamechanger tools" but the added prices will have me looking elseware for the rest of them.

-Robert 

 
festool collection: hk55,55" guide rail, fsk420 rail, rip fence, ct 26

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline LooseSox

  • Posts: 118
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 06:21 PM »
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!

Offline James Biddle

  • Posts: 136
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2018, 08:27 PM »
The good thing about all of these price increases for me is in recouping my investment when I sell.  The bad news for Festool is there are now fewer buyers at the top end market because those people bought my tools. 

The innovative tools that Festool's produced that I still feel compelled to hang onto?  My Domino, Vac-SYS, my partner's Conturo (jury's still out on the HKC saw).  My 5 remaining sanders, 2 drills, 2 routers, jigsaw, 2 vacuums, MFT/3 have all been equalled or surpassed by the competition (in my mind) and are open to replacement.  I've sold the Kapex, 3 sanders, 2 TS55 saws, many tracks; the buyer got them cheaper than new and I recouped the majority of my initial investment.

An increasing pricing strategy will always collapse at some point.  There has to be someone new at the entry level to pay the new price. If I can sell my Festool for my initial investment and head up to one brand or down to another with only the cost differential from what I paid several years ago until now, why not?  There's no penalty for switching.  It creates the exact opposite effect as brand loyalty.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 165
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2018, 06:19 PM »
Prices don't drop, it's just about the rate of increase.  If the price of something increases at a rate less than the inflation rate, it effectively does drop in price.

I haven't followed Festool long enough to know their history, but it looks like they have operated like most businesses in their situation.  They are a global company, selling products made in one place all around the world.  Which means different import/export regs/fees. Different rules for how they operate in each country, cost of operations in each country so on and so forth which is why you can't simply take a product, apply a currency convertor and get "what it should cost".   A big part of this will also be looking at how much they sell in a country verses cost to run there.  I understand their stuff in Australia cost a lot. That makes sense. Australia has 24million people, that's 1/13th the population of the US, so you have to ship stuff to the other side of the planet, maintain what would probably be a similar overhead of the US, yet have in theory 1/13th the sales.  Similar for Canada which is about 1/10th the population of the US.

I'd believe Festool went cheap when entering the US market and now is trying to slowly adjust to get back on track.  Clearly they know how much they can push each year without a revolt.

Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.

Festool also is in a situation like other companies who make products that usable life/sales life can be decades.  This is seen in things like high end camera gear.  The price of stuff keeps going up and people scream, but they forget that the stuff was designed in year X with various cost assumptions.  Over time, cost to make stuff will go up (materials, labor, etc).  Non-Reoccuring Engineering was baked in at the beginning when it hit the market, and by the time it has been amortized the price of the materials, labor, etc has gone up, and everything else.  They will have to keep raising prices to keep track and after a long period of time if they didn't raise the price it could be a big jump, add to it if they had to go back and find new source or supply for parts, re-qualify suppliers, etc.  You could see a big jump in something that looks the same to the user.  This is all a common cycle for companies that don't change models of products every few months/years.  In general people appreciate products not being changed a month after they buy them.

If I was to complain on price increases it's not so much the increase, it's how they do it.  They treat it like a holiday, announcing in advanced the changes like a ceremony that people all wait for.  If you have to raise a price, then raise a price, but don't go celebrating it and making a grand thing about it.  They use it as a sales gimmick. They know the way they do it will cause people to run out and buy stuff.  It's much like a reverse sale.  Cause people to rush out and buy something that they were not urgently looking to buy because they don't want to wait and pay 1% more.

In the end, they know they don't have much competition in the US market.  Mafell gives them a competitor in 1 thing, a saw.  I've thought about that route, but then you have the issue they don't make anything else for the US market (that is, they don't make tools people outside of timber framers are going to buy).  I don't think to many people need a planer to true up the redwood they just felled in the back yard.

Not buying their tools won't suddenly cause them to drop prices. It will more than likely cause prices to go up due to overhead, and lower volume tools to be eliminated.

People will clearly keep buying their stuff as they have for a long time.  What will cause people to really question buying stuff is bad changes such as drop of metric support, or elimination of tools lots of people want (MFS), or never bringing complete systems (CMS modules).  That's the areas where Festool has to be careful.   They know that if someone wants track saws they have limited options, if they want nice LR32 solutions not many either, or good dust control options shrink.  People wish all tool companies had standardized container system.  So Festool isn't going to have much reason to change there.  Other things like drills, well looks like people buy them, not sure why when you can get any drill you want from anyone for much less and no conflict with "system" approach to things like you get with some of the other tools.

It's all the non-price based issues that are the bigger issue for their growth and getting new buyers. People plan things out, it's how it works when you buy into a "system".  That's where I'm at.  It's not the prices thats caused me to not move forwards right now with making a dealer/retailer have a really nice day, it's everything else they have done since I discovered them began to plan purchases. 

I've been reading this forum for many years now before making an account, one thing that is pretty clear is a lot of folks do not see it from the perspective of someone coming in new.  Those people don't "all ready have what I need",  they want tools that you might own, but Festool no longer sells in the US.  They also don't have an entrenchment such as owning rails or accessories.  For folks like me, Festool looks much more messed up than it probably looks to those who have owned their tools for a long time.  What Festool charged in 2002 doesn't mean much to us.  I'm guessing a fair number of folks here are also into photography (the 2 hobbies run in the same circles).  Festool's pricing is fine to anyone who has owned much DSLR gear.  But in camera gear, you never have to deal with gear being available in some countries and not others.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2018, 12:28 PM »
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I would have like to see some refinement in things like the routers and battery platforms.  If Bosch finally brings their track saw to the US/Canadian market, their will be a huge shake-up in the track saw world.  The Mafell made Bosch Track Saw is a seriously good Track Saw for it’s price point.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 223
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2018, 05:30 PM »

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 
[/quote]

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 977
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2018, 06:18 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1468
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2018, 07:37 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I would buy Honda.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 10:46 PM by Svar »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2018, 09:34 PM »

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!
[/quote]

The price increases haven’t happened yet.  They’re slated for the fall.  Festool is one of the most over margined tools in the world.  Festool is probably making 60% margins on their tools.  There really isn’t much rhyme or reason to the price increases.  Europe has low inflation and stable prices, wage inflation is low ect...

Festool is simply hiking the prices for the sake of hiking them.   
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4944
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2018, 10:17 PM »
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I buy Honda.

I buy neither...

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 165
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2018, 11:49 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

It's not price fixing.   If Festool called up Mafell and other members of the Track Saw Manufactures Association of Earth and decided on a price they would all charge for track saws, that would be price fixing. This sort of action is taken seriously in most all countries including countries like the US.

Festool makes the products and says it cost X amount. There is no price fixing when the maker of it decides the price on their own. That's what every product made has. One company can not "price fix" by itself.

A company like Festool does not have to sell thru 3rd parties.  They could just sell them all themselves and the price would be the price just like it is now.  They give others the ability to sell Festool products and in exchange those re-sellers agree to the price. 

When you don't control the price across the board you get all forms of problem, mainly scammers. People go "price hunting" find some shop with a price much lower than the rest, so they buy from it and think they are getting a deal.  Maybe the product will ship, maybe they never see it, or maybe random charges end up on credit card that can't be explained, or hidden fees.  Have a problem, oops that website doesn't exist anymore, where did they go.  And will the people who got taken say "I made a mistake and didn't buy from a reputable shop?"  No, they will go online and curse the manufacture.   Having the price be the same means everyone is on the same page, people buy from where they feel is reputable, or maybe they liked the staff, or they buy from the local store since the online place is no cheaper and it means they can have the product that day and not pay shipping.

Beyond scammers, it becomes the race to the bottom.  Product cost 1000 USD.  Someone decides they can cut it to 990 USD.  Suddenly other retailers find no one is buying because people cared that much about 10 bucks (same people who drive cross town to save 2 cents on gas and thing they are "saving").  So now everyone drops 10 bucks.  Then a different shop drops 15 bucks...... Cycle continues.  Now it becomes who blinks first.  How many places can cut margin and still keep the lights on due to a silly war a few dollars at a time.  Shop after Shop bails, consumers get mad at loss of retailers they liked.  This keeps going until there is one left standing, which is almost certainly going to be the one that started the largest, so someplace like Amazon wins, and then once the last competitor is gone after the price hit 700 bucks, they turn around and the price goes to 1200 USD.   This has been going on in business since forever. But now as direct sales from manufactures has become a much more practical thing in the internet age there is a way for companies to change this.    The Manufacture->Distributor->Wholesaler->Retailer->Customer model with no skipping steps and each adding their own markup business model is dead.  Endless companies still work this way, they just don't realize how soon/quick a new player is going to go Manufacture->Customer  and blow up the world they knew.  Set pricing means both or any variation of these models can co-exist.

Apple gave the market stability, companies who sold stuff below cost and would make it up in volume went away.   If you want to end up with 1 retailer for all things in the future (Buy-N-Large as the Movie Wall-E had) then having shops drive the price and create destructive price wars, then sure, don't have pricing like Festool does.  People don't want to live thru a Wall-Mart style destruction cycle, not in their town, not online.  Sure they are cheap when they are new and growing, but once everyone else is dead they charge what ever they want.

Consumers like consistent pricing.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5697
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2018, 01:18 AM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

It's not price fixing.   If Festool called up Mafell and other members of the Track Saw Manufactures Association of Earth and decided on a price they would all charge for track saws, that would be price fixing. This sort of action is taken seriously in most all countries including countries like the US.

Festool makes the products and says it cost X amount. There is no price fixing when the maker of it decides the price on their own. That's what every product made has. One company can not "price fix" by itself.

A company like Festool does not have to sell thru 3rd parties.  They could just sell them all themselves and the price would be the price just like it is now.  They give others the ability to sell Festool products and in exchange those re-sellers agree to the price. 

When you don't control the price across the board you get all forms of problem, mainly scammers. People go "price hunting" find some shop with a price much lower than the rest, so they buy from it and think they are getting a deal.  Maybe the product will ship, maybe they never see it, or maybe random charges end up on credit card that can't be explained, or hidden fees.  Have a problem, oops that website doesn't exist anymore, where did they go.  And will the people who got taken say "I made a mistake and didn't buy from a reputable shop?"  No, they will go online and curse the manufacture.   Having the price be the same means everyone is on the same page, people buy from where they feel is reputable, or maybe they liked the staff, or they buy from the local store since the online place is no cheaper and it means they can have the product that day and not pay shipping.

Beyond scammers, it becomes the race to the bottom.  Product cost 1000 USD.  Someone decides they can cut it to 990 USD.  Suddenly other retailers find no one is buying because people cared that much about 10 bucks (same people who drive cross town to save 2 cents on gas and thing they are "saving").  So now everyone drops 10 bucks.  Then a different shop drops 15 bucks...... Cycle continues.  Now it becomes who blinks first.  How many places can cut margin and still keep the lights on due to a silly war a few dollars at a time.  Shop after Shop bails, consumers get mad at loss of retailers they liked.  This keeps going until there is one left standing, which is almost certainly going to be the one that started the largest, so someplace like Amazon wins, and then once the last competitor is gone after the price hit 700 bucks, they turn around and the price goes to 1200 USD.   This has been going on in business since forever. But now as direct sales from manufactures has become a much more practical thing in the internet age there is a way for companies to change this.    The Manufacture->Distributor->Wholesaler->Retailer->Customer model with no skipping steps and each adding their own markup business model is dead.  Endless companies still work this way, they just don't realize how soon/quick a new player is going to go Manufacture->Customer  and blow up the world they knew.  Set pricing means both or any variation of these models can co-exist.

Apple gave the market stability, companies who sold stuff below cost and would make it up in volume went away.   If you want to end up with 1 retailer for all things in the future (Buy-N-Large as the Movie Wall-E had) then having shops drive the price and create destructive price wars, then sure, don't have pricing like Festool does.  People don't want to live thru a Wall-Mart style destruction cycle, not in their town, not online.  Sure they are cheap when they are new and growing, but once everyone else is dead they charge what ever they want.

Consumers like consistent pricing.

Wow, huge story in which about everything about economics, law and consumer psychology is plain wrong. But thanks for your thoughts.

- It IS price fixing.

- Consumers like LOW pricing.

- Competition does not lead to monopolists and scammers, but to low prices.

Offline TheSergeant

  • Posts: 90
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2018, 01:47 AM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2197
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2018, 09:52 AM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....
   I don't get you at all. You already OWNED all of those tools, you paid the money and you seem to say you were enjoying using them. Maybe you made money with them as well?
  So, you're selling them off because you're 'betting' the value of them is going to fall drastically in the future or that tools which have never been posted as prone to failure are going to fail on you?   I don't see a single Kapex in your 'sold off' list.
 This makes no sense to me at all since none of what you sold off is ever really talked about as fragile in the least here on FOG and other Forums.   [huh]
 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 58
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2018, 12:53 PM »
I don't get it either. 

The tools are good, some are excellent. They provide functionality that you'll need to replicate somehow, after selling existing green tools at 50-80% of new cost.

Like everyone else here, I see full well that some accessories are pretty poorly designed others are positively horrid (MFT3 protractor and rail locks, LR32 distance stop,  plastic accessories for the otherwise excellent DF500, etc, etc) but i can't easily replace them.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CXS • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline TheSergeant

  • Posts: 90
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2018, 02:36 PM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....
   I don't get you at all. You already OWNED all of those tools, you paid the money and you seem to say you were enjoying using them. Maybe you made money with them as well?
  So, you're selling them off because you're 'betting' the value of them is going to fall drastically in the future or that tools which have never been posted as prone to failure are going to fail on you?   I don't see a single Kapex in your 'sold off' list.
 This makes no sense to me at all since none of what you sold off is ever really talked about as fragile in the least here on FOG and other Forums.   [huh]

I didn't just sell them to sell them.  I started looking at what what other manufacturers were offering and realized there much better tools being sold at much lower prices.  I sold my Festools and replaced them with better tools and literally had $1,000+ left in my pocket.  I did it now because there's still a demand for Festool in the used market for hobbyist and I saw an opportunity to upgrade and make money at the same time, which is almost unheard of.  The demand is there because people still perceive these tools as being superior, in part, because of their price.  I think people are waking up though and I don't think the demand in the used market is going to be there in a year, or two or three.   

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 11528
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2018, 04:47 PM »
Well, what started as a proclaimed rant has produced a thread where many have provided thoughts and insights for Festool and the rest of the internet to read.  But sensing that this thread has run its practical course whereas the prices in effect will remain in effect unless Festool takes action mid-sales-year and Festool won't discuss marketing strategy in public, I am going to lock this thread.

Hopefully everyone will have the time and inkling to go and safely use their tools of whatever color.

Peter Halle - Moderator