Having trouble with your Festool power tool? Well, we're here to help you. Before posting to the forum, give us a chance to diagnose and resolve your issue. In the U.S. and Canada, call us toll-free at 888-337-8600 on Monday-Friday between 8a-5p EST or contact us via email at service@festoolusa.com. For other countries, please visit http://www.festool.com for contact information for your local Festool service department.

Author Topic: Festool price rant  (Read 8607 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline backhoebb

  • Posts: 12
Festool price rant
« on: May 14, 2018, 02:44 AM »
festool
This is getting out of hand. the price increases need to slow or you risk alienating a serious majority of your customer base. at 600 or so in 2015, my mft3 set was an expensive investment in quality, German engineering. Now at 720, I would not again purchase one, a common view among my circle of construction and cabinetmaking friends. The carvex, at 390 dollars, I'm sorry but that is just too much for a jigsaw. I have a carvex, its great, I wouldn't trade it for anything(I already own a p1cc) but I would not purchase it again at that price. festool has to make money, but with added cost has to come added value. otherwise the consumer base will move towards different brands of power tools. the tools are great and the dust collection is top notch, but they have to be within the reasonable sphere of affordability unless you want to lose your professional customer base. I write this as constructive criticism, quality surley comes at a price, but the price has to reflect the product.
regards

robert Lockwood

lockwood construction LLC
festool collection: hk55,55" guide rail, fsk420 rail, rip fence, ct 26

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline mrB

  • Posts: 452
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 03:29 AM »
I feel for you guys! And I have to say that Festool US' annual price hikes have always seemed extreme! Insultingly so.
We don't suffer nearly as much in Europe. And since a few years back dealers have been able to offer serious discounts as a permanent situation. With out this I wouldn't own nearly as many green tools as I do. Before the change I owned 3 Festools, now I've almost lost count. If I was in the US, Festool would get a lot less business from me.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2306
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2018, 05:09 AM »
I’m not involved with setting prices on any product any more as I am retired, but I do know there are many factors that affect prices. One of the big price drivers is the cost of litigation insurance. The US legal system allows anyone to sue for anything. Companies have to have lawyers and legal insurance and those are expensive. Another factor is currency exchange rates... US dollar vs Euro. Staff salaries rise. Health insurance for employees cost more every year. It’s complex. And, Festool has to generate a profit even as their costs rise.

Thus, their prices go up.
Birdhunter

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 218
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 07:18 AM »
Festool may have various reasons for relentless price increases in the USA but the Euro:Dollar exchange rate isn't one of them!  Here is a 10 year trend chart...looks like this factor would have netted us a 30% price reduction in 2014-15 and 40% since 2010.  Instead the price of the Kapex is up about 20% since 2010!  Of course there have been many improvements to the Kapex since 2010...nope same saw except the newer ones do come equipped with that "improved" motor armature.  The relentless annual Festool price increases are all about supporting Festool's luxury goods tool model, where the high price is a feature, not a problem!

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 09:04 AM »
Festool may have various reasons for relentless price increases in the USA but the Euro:Dollar exchange rate isn't one of them!  Here is a 10 year trend chart...looks like this factor would have netted us a 30% price reduction in 2014-15 and 40% since 2010.  Instead the price of the Kapex is up about 20% since 2010!  Of course there have been many improvements to the Kapex since 2010...nope same saw except the newer ones do come equipped with that "improved" motor armature.  The relentless annual Festool price increases are all about supporting Festool's luxury goods tool model, where the high price is a feature, not a problem!

It hurts more in Canada.  You can find the odd dealer selling at better prices but It’s ridiculous to see annual price increases on tools.  It’s pretty stupid. 
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 781
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 09:28 AM »
I have this image in my mind of a Festool marketing meeting where the chief marketeer stands up and says, "Well it's happened again.  We've raised our prices and we sold more stuff again this year than last.  I see a pattern developing here.  From now on, raising prices will be part of our brand mystique - let's see how much we can get away with next year!"

I'd love to see Festool let the market price their stuff.  I'm still amazed that the U.S. allows them to dictate prices to retailers.  Given that, however, it's all about the market.  If people quit buying their stuff, prices will come down.  If Milwaukee, Makita, and DeWalt continue to innovate at a faster pace, incorporating elements of Festool design, prices will come down.  Complaining about the price of tools is like complaining about of price of housing or trucks or... anything else.  For example, it looks to me like the price of cars is up about 20% since 2010, but with a fair amount of innovation in drive chain to improve gas mileage, and in nanny electronics that are a mixed bag.  Companies will do what the market can bear.

I wonder if Festool as a company has formed spending habits commensurate with their prices.  If so, it will be very painful for them if prices have to be lowered.  I have an image in my mind of where I would start to cut costs if I were them, and it's pretty much the same image that I started the post with.  But as long as more people keep buying their tools at constantly rising prices, it ain't gonna happen.

Added - I found this link on car prices.  Looks like less than 10% on average since 2010 - actually a decrease relative to inflation.  But the car that I'm looking at saw a 20% increase. Dang!

http://wgntv.com/2016/04/25/the-average-car-now-costs-25449-how-much-was-a-car-the-year-you-were-born/

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:48 AM by HarveyWildes »

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 517
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 09:54 AM »
@Steven Owen
It hurts more in Canada.  You can find the odd dealer selling at better prices but It’s ridiculous to see annual price increases on tools.  It’s pretty stupid.

but but.. you only pay 5% sales tax where I am it's 12-15%  [eek]

I agree, it is ridiculous and it is with everything. Personally I haven't get an increase in the last 12 years  [blink]
Mario

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 605
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 09:59 AM »
The prices will never go down (although I think they did on batteries one time). I have never heard of any German-made product experiencing a price reduction. The company is probably more concerned about taking care of their employees and not milking every last bit of usefulness out of them at the lowest possible price while working them to death. I'll take the price increases knowing that someone is at least benefitting.

Offline nvalinski

  • Posts: 32
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 10:18 AM »
I'd love to see Festool let the market price their stuff.

I think the only big problem with letting the "market" decide on price is that long term, the "market" becomes online retailers or big box stores that are more than happy to only make a dollar or two on top of the cost and make their profits on quantity. Profits of only a few dollars per tool does not pay for good support or training. I think you'd be saying goodbye to a lot of the Festool Roadshows, Festool Sedge, and the good support that we see in terms of a long warranty and quick turnaround time on malfunctioning tools.

If I'm not mistaken, the US prices have generally cheaper than the rest of the world too. A quick search finds a TS 55 at ~585 euro in Germany, which would be roughly $700 in the US. Seems like we are just finally reaching the point where we have the same price on tools with the most recent price update (TS 55 now sells for $690), so hopefully that means it has leveled out.

Offline Joe Felchlin

  • Posts: 128
  • Just another day in paradise - Livin’ the dream!
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 10:39 AM »
A longtime buy/user of Festool products - When I’ve commented on this subject -
I’ve been chastised on this forum - And even been told to “just sell” my Festool tools.
I was an relatively “early adapter”/purchaser of Festool products.
Like many of you all - I love my Festool products. I’m not selling anything.
I’m just increasingly disappointed in the direction the brand is going - And I’m hesitant about buying anything else “Festool”, given what I read/see happening.
Apparently... I’m not alone.
Many of Festool’s “forever loyal and faithful” - Are also increasingly concerned.
The “drumbeat” of discontent continues... Price increases... Tool problems... Service issues. And it’s getting “louder” - And more frequent.

On FEB 25th, Eric/ERock/ThePoplarShop - A longtime ardent Festool advocate - And producer of multiple terrific Festool “How To” videos - Said it best in his latest post:
“I don’t believe in the company anymore”. 

Recently, I saw a posting by Brice Burrell, a “forever” vocal Festool apostle -
Another well known, respected - And frequent FOG poster/video producer -
Opting to look at alternatives to Festool products.
See/Search: TS 55 Reliability/Quality Problem - Reply #13  May 5, 2018
“We will be getting the Bosch version of the MT55 here in the states in the fall.  It doesn't have all the features of the Mafell but it comes in at the same price of the TS55.  I'll into replacing my 12 year old TS55 then.”

Reminds one of an old business axiom:
“Ignore your customers - They’ll go away.”
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 11:34 AM by Joe Felchlin »
FESTOOL: CT26 and CT33 E HEPA Dust Extractors, MFT 1080, MFT-3, TS 55 REQ-F-Plus USA, TS75 EQ, Guide Rails: 1080's/1400/3000mm, LR 32-SYS/Holey Rail, Parallel Guides and Extensions, OF1400 EQ Plunge Router, OF1010 EQ Plunge Router, HL 850 Planer, RO125 FEQ Rotex Sander, LS 130 EQ Linear Detail Sander, DX93E Detail Sander, C12 Cordless Drill, CXS Cordless Compact Drill Driver, SYS-Centrotec-Set, Domino XL DF 700 EQ Plus Tenon Joiner Set, Domino DF 500 Tenon Joiner | WOODPECKERS: DF 500 Offset Base System | BOSCH: 5412L Compound Miter Saw, 4100-09 10-Inch Table Saw | POWERMATIC: 60HH 8" Jointer, PWBS 14" Bandsaw w/Riser Block | MAKITA: 2012NB Bench Top Planer | JESSEM: Mast-R-Lift XL/Fence/Slide, Rout-R-Plate/Table Stand | RIKON: 50-120 6inX48in Belt-Disc Sander | JET: JBOS-5 Benchtop Oscillating Spindle Sander | PORTER CABLE: 7518 and 690LVRS Routers, 557 Pro Plate Joiner, 16/18/23 Gauge Nailers | LEIGH JIGS: D4R 24 Pro Dovetail Jig, FMT Pro Mortise & Tenon Jig | LIE-NIELSEN: Almost every hand plane | DOWELMAX: 3/8" and 1/4" | KREG: K3 Master System | FEIN: Multimaster FMM 250 Q Kit | TORMEK: Super-Grind 2000 | DUST DEPUTY: Industrial (ALL) Steel Deluxe Cyclone (2)

Offline zapdafish

  • Posts: 479
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 11:30 AM »

I feel the same way about iphone pricing but they seem to be doing quite well.
CT22, TS55, Kapex, RO150, Domino, RS 2 E

Offline Joe Felchlin

  • Posts: 128
  • Just another day in paradise - Livin’ the dream!
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 11:43 AM »
Apparently, Tim Cook doesn’t agree with you.
At $1,000 apiece, the iPhone X isn’t selling as well as Apple thought it would.
Disappointed with sales being LESS than expected - Apple’s new direction:
“Apple's Three New iPhones for 2018: Bigger, Faster, Cheaper”
http://fortune.com/2018/02/26/apple-new-iphone-release/
Thx for making my point for me. Companies that “listen” to their customers - Adapt, grow, and prosper.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 11:48 AM by Joe Felchlin »
FESTOOL: CT26 and CT33 E HEPA Dust Extractors, MFT 1080, MFT-3, TS 55 REQ-F-Plus USA, TS75 EQ, Guide Rails: 1080's/1400/3000mm, LR 32-SYS/Holey Rail, Parallel Guides and Extensions, OF1400 EQ Plunge Router, OF1010 EQ Plunge Router, HL 850 Planer, RO125 FEQ Rotex Sander, LS 130 EQ Linear Detail Sander, DX93E Detail Sander, C12 Cordless Drill, CXS Cordless Compact Drill Driver, SYS-Centrotec-Set, Domino XL DF 700 EQ Plus Tenon Joiner Set, Domino DF 500 Tenon Joiner | WOODPECKERS: DF 500 Offset Base System | BOSCH: 5412L Compound Miter Saw, 4100-09 10-Inch Table Saw | POWERMATIC: 60HH 8" Jointer, PWBS 14" Bandsaw w/Riser Block | MAKITA: 2012NB Bench Top Planer | JESSEM: Mast-R-Lift XL/Fence/Slide, Rout-R-Plate/Table Stand | RIKON: 50-120 6inX48in Belt-Disc Sander | JET: JBOS-5 Benchtop Oscillating Spindle Sander | PORTER CABLE: 7518 and 690LVRS Routers, 557 Pro Plate Joiner, 16/18/23 Gauge Nailers | LEIGH JIGS: D4R 24 Pro Dovetail Jig, FMT Pro Mortise & Tenon Jig | LIE-NIELSEN: Almost every hand plane | DOWELMAX: 3/8" and 1/4" | KREG: K3 Master System | FEIN: Multimaster FMM 250 Q Kit | TORMEK: Super-Grind 2000 | DUST DEPUTY: Industrial (ALL) Steel Deluxe Cyclone (2)

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5195
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 11:55 AM »
Prices go up, cost increase. The cost of a new truck is this year is more than was last year. Ya cant expect to buy a rolls royce for the price if a yugo.

There are a lot of a companys makeing tools that have dust collection, guide rails etc that are a lot cheaper then festool. You dont need to buy festools.

I saw that harbor freight has some inexpensive tools .

Putting thing in perspective :

When was the last time you were in Germany or Europe?

I returned from living there for 4 years 11 mos ago.

There you have the EU regulations both safety and manufacturing which increases, various Licensing fees, You have export and import taxes, you have general cost increases of employees. Energy cost increases not to mentio Fuel cost increases, labor cost increases from where FT buys their parts from. Not to mention a Value Added Tax (VAT). I think Germany is 16% on everything bought or sold.
Then shipping cost increase (fuel for the ships, wages, taxes, dock fees) etc. Dont forget that VAT applies.

Then when the products reach the USA cost Doc fees Import fees, Shipping fees Fuel cost wages, Insurance increases even rent and advertisment cost for the B&M stores etc etc.

A good example of what Im talking about, what is the cost of a dominos pizza delivered to your door in the USA? Its about $7 bucks plus tip right?

In the UK that same domino pizza (depending on conversion) will cost you roughly $20 a pizza not including tip or 15 GBP .

Ive paid over $20 bucks in the UK (after the conversion) for a burger. UK has a 20% VAT.

Cost in Europe are different than here and go up all the time.

 The price of everything goes up.

The cost of Birch shop plywood has increased something like $20 a sheet from 4 years ago and Calif added a enviromental tax on each sheet which adds a buck or so per sheet .

1/2 Baltic Birch was when I left somethnig like $20 for a 5'X5" Sheet its running about $36 now.

Heck.,  I can drive to Las Vegas Nevada pay something like $10 bucks a sheet less for 19mm Shop Birch a sheet and its in the middle of the desert and everything comes into the Port of LA to be shipped there. Added cost prolly state taxes (Calif is the worst)......

Have look at at building materials look at the cost increases. Go to the Home Depot and compare the price of a tube of caulking or gallon of paint to what it cost even last year?

I just paid $86 bucks for a gallon of WB finish that used to pay $30 bucks for a few years back.

You have to look at the big picture.

When was the last time you went to go grocery shopping? When was the last time you bought a pair of Levis?

Licensing fees (registration cost) for vehicles.

Things go up. When I was a kid I paid $5 to get into Disneyland its over $100 just for a ticket to get in now.
 I use to pay a $1.25 to get into a movies for a Sat matinee with 2 movies and a cartoon and news reel.

When was the last time you went to a movie?

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 12:46 PM by jobsworth »

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 614
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 12:37 PM »
Prices go up, cost increase. The cost of a new truck is this year is more than was last year. Ya cant expect to buy a rolls royce for the price if a yugo.

There are a lot of a companys makeing tools that have dust collection, guide rails etc that are a lot cheaper then festool. You dont need to buy festools.

I saw that harbor freight has some inexpensive tools

I also don't like price increases, but I do like Festool products, and will therefore continue to buy them. 

Recently, I thinned out and sold a few items for almost exactly what I paid for them two years ago (try that with DeWalt).  I just woke up one morning and realized I had purchased a few "wants", and not "needs" along the journey.  Naturally, I used the money from the sales to purchase more Festools!
   
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 12:42 PM by McNally Family »
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5195
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 12:53 PM »
@McNally Family

I hear ya bro, There are some new(er) festools I woud love to have but Im priced out right now. The Conturo, and the Vacsys are a couple of them. So I make due with out them. I still edge and using the wifes old iron.  I have to build a kitchen for my BIL but Im not going out to get a contruro unless he pays for it which though I havent asked him yet He prolly won't. So Ill just get real cozy with the wife old iron.

Even Festool end user training used to be $200 then it went up to $250 and now $350 or so.

 The cabinet class combined with the doors and drawers is $700 buck now.

Thats life right. Things go up, life goes on
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 12:56 PM by jobsworth »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 594
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2018, 12:55 PM »
I am only loyal to my money, not to brands. I don't care how Festool or any other brands increase their prices as my purchase decision is based on what I think is fair. I can practically afford any woodworking tools or machines -- Festool or other premium brands, but I don't have most of them because I don't have any needs or wants for them. For those that I do want/need, I buy them regardless of how much their prices have gone up over the years -- or will continue to go up, as long as the prices are acceptable to me. Many people say the Kapex is overpriced; I would agree so if and when my Kapex's motor burns out. For now, it is the best saw (not counting the SawStop) I have ever used.

As a businessperson, I raise my fees periodically (with no fixed patterns) and my clients will decide if they can accept the increases. If they don't think so, I will lose some of my clients -- and my earnings, but I am not going to offer my service below the competitive rates that I think I deserve. Of course, there is always someone out there who is willing to do more for less, but I am not one of them. I suppose Festool pricing policy works similarly.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 01:01 PM by ChuckM »

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 182
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2018, 01:08 PM »
FWIW I think that this issue needs to be viewed from within a much larger context.

I view the premium price of these tools in two ways, neither of which is necessarily complimentary. The first has to do with the principle of "what it actually costs to produce something". In this case, we're talking about tools in general and premium tools in particular. However, the same principle applies whether we're talking about the production of tools or food or anything else.

When manufacturers/brands opt to externalize the bulk of their costs - by choosing to produce their goods in distant and despotic lands that lack both the rule of law and adequate labor & environmental protections (all of which combine to shove many of the costs of production onto the backs of exploited workers and the environment and, increasingly, even onto the rest of society - by way of funding corporate welfare, producing mass migrations of climate/economic refugees and/or increasing workers' reliance on various forms of public assistance, etc.), rather than manufacture in evolved democracies (like Germany or, to a lesser extent, the United States), the result will be a) the end retail price of the applicable widget will almost always be less then a comparable widget produced in a place where the water, air and soil are relatively clean and where workers enjoy such "luxuries" as strong organized labor, ample time-off and affordable state-sponsored healthcare, childcare, education, elder-care, etc. and b) the quality of the applicable widget will often (though not always) suffer.

When I purchase a Festool product I am, whether I understand it or not, supporting an entire system which prioritizes product quality and the rights of workers & the environment (and, to some extent, the rights of consumers) over the detriments associated with the "race to the bottom" (the latter as practiced by the bulk of tool manufacturers). IOW I choose to support mothers and children, specifically, and people, in general, having universal access to world-class education, world-class healthcare (if not also clean air, water and soil) and the attendant award-winning quality of life that these "luxuries" produce. I support these things for everyone on the planet but I don't buy the argument that by purchasing sweatshop-produced goods I can indirectly improve people's lives in the Majority World. To meaningfully do that, we would have to lift the yoke of U.S. and European imperialism and in its place institute a system of economic reparations to make-up for the last half-millennium of abuse and exploitation. 

Just like the cost of small-scale, organically-produced food more closely mirrors the actual cost of what it takes to produce food (by utilizing a system that, relatively speaking - and relative to conventional ag - doesn't pollute the environment, pays its workers a fair wage and which works with nature instead of against it), the cost of a high-quality tool produced in Germany more closely mirrors the actual cost of what it takes to produce tools without (and, again, this is all relative) trashing the environment, without exploiting workers and without asking/expecting the larger society to shoulder many of the costs of production (direct government subsidies for things like transportation, energy, etc., aside).

The second way in which I view the now regular price increases - and this could be seen as an even more global (if not also cynical) view - is through the lens of human overpopulation (as manifested by resource depletion and climate change and all of the attendant massive-scale consequences). Given what countries like Germany (which, after all, is still at its heart an industrial nation) are facing as a result of the weakening of the North Atlantic Current (a.k.a "North Atlantic Drift" and "North Atlantic Sea Movement") - and the very real potential for it to shut down altogether - and the realities of doing business on a planet that is rapidly approaching many of the associated finite limits, there is an increasing incentive, particularly among the wealthiest among us, to take steps, no matter how utterly silly (like amassing and concentrating monetary wealth), to "prepare" for the looming collapse of society. Given the reality of our situation, therefore, I wouldn't put it past Tooltechnic's owners to increasingly want to engage in the business of transitioning as much wealth as possible from "the people" to "the 1%". Now, I am not privy to TTS Tooltechnic System AG & Company's books so I can't know for certain what the breakeven point is and how close to it (or far beyond it) the current pricing scheme is - IOW what profit margins are, relative to what retail prices currently are, relative to what consumers are willing to pay, relative to what it actually costs to participate in adequately funding an evolved welfare state. However, given that more and more people are waking up to the very real and present threats that we (and future generations) face, it wouldn't be unreasonable to postulate that the people at the very top of Tooltechnic may a) see the writing on the wall and b) may, as a result, be seeking to maximize their wealth as a (no matter how pointless) hedge against near-future troubles.

For me, acquiescing to Festool's pricing comes down to my desire to do less harm. Which is why, in the context of building projects with the aid of electric tools, I prioritize buying pre-owned Festools (over new), using locally sourced and/or reclaimed materials as often as I can, avoiding toxic chemicals/ingredients and why I do everything I can to buy non-sweatshop-produced tools (and, in the other parts of my life, locally and/or ethically produced consumer goods). That said, I am not a Luddite and I choose to participate, no matter how far in the margins, in the larger economy - I just try to do so as ethically as possible. I could do much more but this is where I am currently at. Plus, I have no illusions that any of my actions are producing any truly meaningful effects, beyond those that exist in my own head (which help me get out of bed in the morning). Our fate, after all, has already been written.

So, as a toast, here's to futile efforts and even more to futile ideas. And, to the FOG, which serves as a wonderful distraction from the chaos taking place outside. Cheers. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 01:30 PM by TinyShop »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1797
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2018, 02:59 PM »
If I find that a price is too high for a tool, I don't buy it.There are many high quality tools on the market these days, including many vacs with HEPA filters and auto start features, sanders, routers, track saws, even MFT type work tables. Many of those tools are less expensive and, for many of us, would serve our needs. For those tools that are unique to Festool, like the Dominos, I guess I'd say a premium price is justified.

I have a number of Festool tools, including the MFT, a vac, routers, the Dominos, track saw, VacSys, and a couple of extra guide rails. While I did not necessarily like paying the high prices, I don't regret buying them. Regret for buying them takes the fun and satisfaction out of using them. When I use one of my Festools, I get satisfaction out of how well it operates, how vibration free and dust free the sanders are, how well the vac sucks up dust and chips, how easy it is to set up my OF1400, how the VacSys facilitates sanding, Dominoing, and routing, how square my cuts are on the MFT/Miter gauge setup; just to name a few.

If I don't want to pay the price, I don't buy the tool. My opinion is that if the price is too high, don't buy the tool. That's the best and quickest way I know to show any company that their tools aren't worth it. (Just me, of course. I'm sure others see things differently.)
Randy

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7349
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2018, 03:16 PM »
Recently, I saw a posting by Brice Burrell, a “forever” vocal Festool apostle -

I buy tools that offer the best value for my money.  That was Festool a decade ago.  Now, there is a lot more competition from the other brands and they are beating Festool in innovation and value more and more everyday.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3475
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2018, 03:39 PM »
The value proposition should always be part of the tool buying process unless cost is not a concern but in the US keep in mind that when Festool began selling here they offered the tools at prices far below what the rest of the world paid. Don’t know how prices compare across counties these days since the EU has forbidden price fixing which is still in effect in the US.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 605
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2018, 03:42 PM »
Apparently, Tim Cook doesn’t agree with you.
At $1,000 apiece, the iPhone X isn’t selling as well as Apple thought it would.
Disappointed with sales being LESS than expected - Apple’s new direction:
“Apple's Three New iPhones for 2018: Bigger, Faster, Cheaper”
http://fortune.com/2018/02/26/apple-new-iphone-release/
Thx for making my point for me. Companies that “listen” to their customers - Adapt, grow, and prosper.

Apparently you overlooked what Apple reported at their last Earnings Report (last week I believe) which was that the iPhone X was the best selling phone every week of the quarter being reported on. This Fortune Magazine writer, like all but a few analysts, knows absolutely nothing and are just spewing off at the mouth and getting traction with the financial magazines, sites and blogs. It comes down to a bunch of fools (analysts) trying to sharpshoot supply chain purchases of which they know nothing about. There has always been the group of analysts who say Apple could sell so many more phones and computers if they lowered their prices. BMW, Mercedes and others could also do the same, but they choose not to because they don't have to. Looking at the mobile phone market Apple has captured almost all of the profit with a few percent being taken by Samsung even they sell a ton more phones than Apple. When you have a premium product like Festool (or Apple or BMW or Rolex, etc) you can dictate the pricing not an analyst who is only worried about volume.

For the record Fortune Magazine is but a shadow of its old self. A month magazine cannot compete with the thousands of blogs and articles being posted everyday leaving them the only option which is to speculate and hype what little nugget they do have in the hopes of salvaging their business.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:46 PM by JimH2 »

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 55
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2018, 04:09 PM »
The comparison with Apple and Festool is also missing an important difference.  When Apple ships a new product it usually has new features and capabilities, they don't keeping selling the same phone and raise the price every year.  I would like to see more innovation from Festool that justifies the higher prices. 

I own a number Festool products and like using them.   Especially their dust collection.  I now dislike using some of my older tools that don't have dust collection.  I have been replacing them with Festool.
Bob

Offline ProCarpenterRVA

  • Posts: 72
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2018, 04:54 PM »
The prices will never go down (although I think they did on batteries one time). I have never heard of any German-made product experiencing a price reduction. The company is probably more concerned about taking care of their employees and not milking every last bit of usefulness out of them at the lowest possible price while working them to death. I'll take the price increases knowing that someone is at least benefitting.
This.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Offline Joe Felchlin

  • Posts: 128
  • Just another day in paradise - Livin’ the dream!
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2018, 05:43 PM »
JimH2 -
I didn’t overlook anything. I study the Far East, European, and American markets, daily. I’ve been a serious investor for 30+ years - And make my living as a “day trader” - Successfully making six figure trades, daily.
Say what you will... Fortune’s Apple article was only one of MANY analysts, reviews, and articles - Saying exactly the same thing. I just picked the first on the list I Googled.
Nonetheless... The POINT is:
Apple is LISTENING TO THEIR CUSTOMERS’ feedback. ADAPTING. And CHANGING .

Festool appears to NOT be listening to their historically core market: woodworkers and craftsmen - As they now appear to be further expanding their marketing and product line - Into the broad spectrum construction trades market.
The questions seem to be:
Will Festool’s business model shift erode the quality of their brand in the eyes of their core customer market?
Will they continue to buy Festool products - As Festool tries to compete in today’s tool market on “yesterday’s” reputation.
Or... Does Festool really care - If they can sell “less quality” to more tool buyers?

The Festool “protectionists” will continue to “swear by the brand” - No matter how many price increases happen without any improvements or value added to the MFT3; no matter how many Kapex motors burn out; no matter how many times they have to return their tools to Festool Service to get correctly fixed. But... Increasingly...
The majority of us woodworker/craftsmen are taking Brice Burrell’s view:
It’s a choice - And ultimately - A PRICE versus VALUE decision.
I don’t feel good about Festool’s apparent current direction. Early on, I “bought into” the Festool system. I’m still - For now - A Festool advocate.
And, I really, really, hope that I’m wrong.
But, reading the FOG every day - The “drumbeat” of discontent - Sadly - Continues.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:38 PM by Joe Felchlin »
FESTOOL: CT26 and CT33 E HEPA Dust Extractors, MFT 1080, MFT-3, TS 55 REQ-F-Plus USA, TS75 EQ, Guide Rails: 1080's/1400/3000mm, LR 32-SYS/Holey Rail, Parallel Guides and Extensions, OF1400 EQ Plunge Router, OF1010 EQ Plunge Router, HL 850 Planer, RO125 FEQ Rotex Sander, LS 130 EQ Linear Detail Sander, DX93E Detail Sander, C12 Cordless Drill, CXS Cordless Compact Drill Driver, SYS-Centrotec-Set, Domino XL DF 700 EQ Plus Tenon Joiner Set, Domino DF 500 Tenon Joiner | WOODPECKERS: DF 500 Offset Base System | BOSCH: 5412L Compound Miter Saw, 4100-09 10-Inch Table Saw | POWERMATIC: 60HH 8" Jointer, PWBS 14" Bandsaw w/Riser Block | MAKITA: 2012NB Bench Top Planer | JESSEM: Mast-R-Lift XL/Fence/Slide, Rout-R-Plate/Table Stand | RIKON: 50-120 6inX48in Belt-Disc Sander | JET: JBOS-5 Benchtop Oscillating Spindle Sander | PORTER CABLE: 7518 and 690LVRS Routers, 557 Pro Plate Joiner, 16/18/23 Gauge Nailers | LEIGH JIGS: D4R 24 Pro Dovetail Jig, FMT Pro Mortise & Tenon Jig | LIE-NIELSEN: Almost every hand plane | DOWELMAX: 3/8" and 1/4" | KREG: K3 Master System | FEIN: Multimaster FMM 250 Q Kit | TORMEK: Super-Grind 2000 | DUST DEPUTY: Industrial (ALL) Steel Deluxe Cyclone (2)

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 11499
  • Another Avatar Coming Soon
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2018, 06:43 PM »
Well I guess Festool will have some time to evaluate pricing strategies before next Spring and I know that they read comments. 

Peter

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 09:57 PM »
A longtime buy/user of Festool products - When I’ve commented on this subject -
I’ve been chastised on this forum - And even been told to “just sell” my Festool tools.
I was an relatively “early adapter”/purchaser of Festool products.
Like many of you all - I love my Festool products. I’m not selling anything.
I’m just increasingly disappointed in the direction the brand is going - And I’m hesitant about buying anything else “Festool”, given what I read/see happening.
Apparently... I’m not alone.
Many of Festool’s “forever loyal and faithful” - Are also increasingly concerned.
The “drumbeat” of discontent continues... Price increases... Tool problems... Service issues. And it’s getting “louder” - And more frequent.

On FEB 25th, Eric/ERock/ThePoplarShop - A longtime ardent Festool advocate - And producer of multiple terrific Festool “How To” videos - Said it best in his latest post:
“I don’t believe in the company anymore”. 

Recently, I saw a posting by Brice Burrell, a “forever” vocal Festool apostle -
Another well known, respected - And frequent FOG poster/video producer -
Opting to look at alternatives to Festool products.
See/Search: TS 55 Reliability/Quality Problem - Reply #13  May 5, 2018
“We will be getting the Bosch version of the MT55 here in the states in the fall.  It doesn't have all the features of the Mafell but it comes in at the same price of the TS55.  I'll into replacing my 12 year old TS55 then.”

Reminds one of an old business axiom:
“Ignore your customers - They’ll go away.”


That’s exciting news.  Where did hear about the Bosch MT 55 coming to Canada?  It’s an excellent Track Saw for the money. 
 
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2477
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2018, 12:43 AM »
Pricing is what it is -- if something provides value, then cost is less important. In the absence of value, price is what matters. If one does not like the price for a tool or accessory, no one is forcing you to buy it. There are good alternatives out there in a range of prices and some things are even more expensive than Festool. I do not like paying higher prices, but in the long run it really does not have a huge impact one way or the other. As others have said, FT holds value and you can often sell things for around the price you paid in time.

Offline JG

  • Posts: 10
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2018, 11:24 AM »
I hesitate to respond to this post only due to title contaning the word 'rant'.  I prefer the title include 'constructive advice from the loyal consumers'.

I also have concerns over the constant price increases.  I personally own several Festool products.  I have not purchased additional ones in the spring time before the increases occur.  I do not succumb to quick decisions to avoid a price increase.  If the product has improved features, I do not have an issue paying more.  I take issue with the hurry up and buy before the price goes up marketing program. 

The most recent price increases on the Festool vacs did come with some new beneficial features. I am considering purchasing the new CT Midi.  I am still conducting my research before making a final decision.

I hope some recent events are being considered by Festool when planning for their future. First is the brushless motors.  For many years Festool almost exclusively had the market on brushless motors.  I am not sure if the patents have expired, but it seems that all the major players (DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Bosch, among others) seem to be constantly releasing cordless tools with brushless motors.  These manufacturers offer their tools at prices much cheaper than Festool.  They also offer the consumer hundreds of other compatible tools on the same battery platform. 

Another issue involves dust extraction.  Festool was the leader in offering tools that connect to vacs to reduce dust and collect it at the source.  With the newly enacted OSHA silica rules in the US, all the major manufacturers now offer very good HEPA vacs that connect to tools.  While the current focus of these manufacturers is on SDS drills and grinders being used for concrete (to quickly comply with the recent OSHA regs), I expect other tools and applications will quickly follow.  Many of these vacs are much cheaper and very comparable in performance to the Festool.

Also, Bosch recently released their Flexbit 12V driill which offers the same features to the Festool drills.  At a price of approx $199, it seems to be a valid competitor to Festool for the cost conscious consumer.  It also allows the consumer to use other tools Bosch offers on the same battery platform.  I expect other manufacturers might follow.

All the manufacturers now offer very strong boxes that lock together for transportation to the jobsite. For example, a consumer can purchase several of DeWalt TSTAK boxes for the cost of one Festool box.  While the TSTACK line does not have all the selection of boxes that Festool offers, their line is growing and they are much stronger and less expensive.  Milwaukee also just released their packout line of boxes which really competes with Festool from a price and performance perspective. 

The major manufacturers seem to be eating away at Festool's dynasty.  I still use and love Festool products.  Their precision make my work much easier.  I notice the Festool cult following, now has a branch of converts who are offended by the annual price increases.  Hopefully Festool can consider the valid points made by everyone.  I am not so offended by Festool that I will not purchase any new Festool product, nor I will sell all my existing Festool products.  However, I will not make any future Festool purchase if I do not see the real cost benefit to me as a consumer; a decision which has been more difficult in light of the new products from other manufacturers.  I do own tools from the other majors so I am not completely locked into the Festool system.  I can be selective. My preference is that Festool only increases the prices on existing tools when they release the same tools with improved features.  Just my thoughts.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 517
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2018, 12:03 PM »
I come to realize that the increase in price is in the 0.5% to 1.5% range. This is based on FestoolShop Canadian online store.

Also tools like the Kapex did not get an increase. We all know why  [wink] and to me this is an acknowledgment on Festool part.

The gas this week went from 1.28 to 1.39 that's 8%  [eek]
Mario

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5195
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2018, 12:40 PM »
I owe I owe I owe so off to work I go

Offline backhoebb

  • Posts: 12
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 06:18 PM »
I think jg summed up many of our thoughts precisely. as Festool prices continue to rise I will be either more inlined towards brands like maffel and metabo. expensive but with real quality to show for it.


 I am not offended by Festool doing this, I'm concerned the company is going to force us, actual users, to look elsewhere for tools. I've always believed in paying for quality,  buy my hand tools on my vacations to Switzerland. but I'm sorry, 720 is just too much for a mft3, this goes for more and more of there tools to.

I am a long time believer and Festool and will continue to buy there "gamechanger tools" but the added prices will have me looking elseware for the rest of them.

-Robert 

 
festool collection: hk55,55" guide rail, fsk420 rail, rip fence, ct 26

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline LooseSox

  • Posts: 116
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 06:21 PM »
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!

Offline James Biddle

  • Posts: 133
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2018, 08:27 PM »
The good thing about all of these price increases for me is in recouping my investment when I sell.  The bad news for Festool is there are now fewer buyers at the top end market because those people bought my tools. 

The innovative tools that Festool's produced that I still feel compelled to hang onto?  My Domino, Vac-SYS, my partner's Conturo (jury's still out on the HKC saw).  My 5 remaining sanders, 2 drills, 2 routers, jigsaw, 2 vacuums, MFT/3 have all been equalled or surpassed by the competition (in my mind) and are open to replacement.  I've sold the Kapex, 3 sanders, 2 TS55 saws, many tracks; the buyer got them cheaper than new and I recouped the majority of my initial investment.

An increasing pricing strategy will always collapse at some point.  There has to be someone new at the entry level to pay the new price. If I can sell my Festool for my initial investment and head up to one brand or down to another with only the cost differential from what I paid several years ago until now, why not?  There's no penalty for switching.  It creates the exact opposite effect as brand loyalty.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 151
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2018, 06:19 PM »
Prices don't drop, it's just about the rate of increase.  If the price of something increases at a rate less than the inflation rate, it effectively does drop in price.

I haven't followed Festool long enough to know their history, but it looks like they have operated like most businesses in their situation.  They are a global company, selling products made in one place all around the world.  Which means different import/export regs/fees. Different rules for how they operate in each country, cost of operations in each country so on and so forth which is why you can't simply take a product, apply a currency convertor and get "what it should cost".   A big part of this will also be looking at how much they sell in a country verses cost to run there.  I understand their stuff in Australia cost a lot. That makes sense. Australia has 24million people, that's 1/13th the population of the US, so you have to ship stuff to the other side of the planet, maintain what would probably be a similar overhead of the US, yet have in theory 1/13th the sales.  Similar for Canada which is about 1/10th the population of the US.

I'd believe Festool went cheap when entering the US market and now is trying to slowly adjust to get back on track.  Clearly they know how much they can push each year without a revolt.

Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.

Festool also is in a situation like other companies who make products that usable life/sales life can be decades.  This is seen in things like high end camera gear.  The price of stuff keeps going up and people scream, but they forget that the stuff was designed in year X with various cost assumptions.  Over time, cost to make stuff will go up (materials, labor, etc).  Non-Reoccuring Engineering was baked in at the beginning when it hit the market, and by the time it has been amortized the price of the materials, labor, etc has gone up, and everything else.  They will have to keep raising prices to keep track and after a long period of time if they didn't raise the price it could be a big jump, add to it if they had to go back and find new source or supply for parts, re-qualify suppliers, etc.  You could see a big jump in something that looks the same to the user.  This is all a common cycle for companies that don't change models of products every few months/years.  In general people appreciate products not being changed a month after they buy them.

If I was to complain on price increases it's not so much the increase, it's how they do it.  They treat it like a holiday, announcing in advanced the changes like a ceremony that people all wait for.  If you have to raise a price, then raise a price, but don't go celebrating it and making a grand thing about it.  They use it as a sales gimmick. They know the way they do it will cause people to run out and buy stuff.  It's much like a reverse sale.  Cause people to rush out and buy something that they were not urgently looking to buy because they don't want to wait and pay 1% more.

In the end, they know they don't have much competition in the US market.  Mafell gives them a competitor in 1 thing, a saw.  I've thought about that route, but then you have the issue they don't make anything else for the US market (that is, they don't make tools people outside of timber framers are going to buy).  I don't think to many people need a planer to true up the redwood they just felled in the back yard.

Not buying their tools won't suddenly cause them to drop prices. It will more than likely cause prices to go up due to overhead, and lower volume tools to be eliminated.

People will clearly keep buying their stuff as they have for a long time.  What will cause people to really question buying stuff is bad changes such as drop of metric support, or elimination of tools lots of people want (MFS), or never bringing complete systems (CMS modules).  That's the areas where Festool has to be careful.   They know that if someone wants track saws they have limited options, if they want nice LR32 solutions not many either, or good dust control options shrink.  People wish all tool companies had standardized container system.  So Festool isn't going to have much reason to change there.  Other things like drills, well looks like people buy them, not sure why when you can get any drill you want from anyone for much less and no conflict with "system" approach to things like you get with some of the other tools.

It's all the non-price based issues that are the bigger issue for their growth and getting new buyers. People plan things out, it's how it works when you buy into a "system".  That's where I'm at.  It's not the prices thats caused me to not move forwards right now with making a dealer/retailer have a really nice day, it's everything else they have done since I discovered them began to plan purchases. 

I've been reading this forum for many years now before making an account, one thing that is pretty clear is a lot of folks do not see it from the perspective of someone coming in new.  Those people don't "all ready have what I need",  they want tools that you might own, but Festool no longer sells in the US.  They also don't have an entrenchment such as owning rails or accessories.  For folks like me, Festool looks much more messed up than it probably looks to those who have owned their tools for a long time.  What Festool charged in 2002 doesn't mean much to us.  I'm guessing a fair number of folks here are also into photography (the 2 hobbies run in the same circles).  Festool's pricing is fine to anyone who has owned much DSLR gear.  But in camera gear, you never have to deal with gear being available in some countries and not others.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2018, 12:28 PM »
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I would have like to see some refinement in things like the routers and battery platforms.  If Bosch finally brings their track saw to the US/Canadian market, their will be a huge shake-up in the track saw world.  The Mafell made Bosch Track Saw is a seriously good Track Saw for it’s price point.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 218
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2018, 05:30 PM »

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 
[/quote]

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 947
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2018, 06:18 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1422
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2018, 07:37 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I would buy Honda.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 10:46 PM by Svar »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2018, 09:34 PM »

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!
[/quote]

The price increases haven’t happened yet.  They’re slated for the fall.  Festool is one of the most over margined tools in the world.  Festool is probably making 60% margins on their tools.  There really isn’t much rhyme or reason to the price increases.  Europe has low inflation and stable prices, wage inflation is low ect...

Festool is simply hiking the prices for the sake of hiking them.   
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4836
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2018, 10:17 PM »
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I buy Honda.

I buy neither...

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 151
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2018, 11:49 PM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

It's not price fixing.   If Festool called up Mafell and other members of the Track Saw Manufactures Association of Earth and decided on a price they would all charge for track saws, that would be price fixing. This sort of action is taken seriously in most all countries including countries like the US.

Festool makes the products and says it cost X amount. There is no price fixing when the maker of it decides the price on their own. That's what every product made has. One company can not "price fix" by itself.

A company like Festool does not have to sell thru 3rd parties.  They could just sell them all themselves and the price would be the price just like it is now.  They give others the ability to sell Festool products and in exchange those re-sellers agree to the price. 

When you don't control the price across the board you get all forms of problem, mainly scammers. People go "price hunting" find some shop with a price much lower than the rest, so they buy from it and think they are getting a deal.  Maybe the product will ship, maybe they never see it, or maybe random charges end up on credit card that can't be explained, or hidden fees.  Have a problem, oops that website doesn't exist anymore, where did they go.  And will the people who got taken say "I made a mistake and didn't buy from a reputable shop?"  No, they will go online and curse the manufacture.   Having the price be the same means everyone is on the same page, people buy from where they feel is reputable, or maybe they liked the staff, or they buy from the local store since the online place is no cheaper and it means they can have the product that day and not pay shipping.

Beyond scammers, it becomes the race to the bottom.  Product cost 1000 USD.  Someone decides they can cut it to 990 USD.  Suddenly other retailers find no one is buying because people cared that much about 10 bucks (same people who drive cross town to save 2 cents on gas and thing they are "saving").  So now everyone drops 10 bucks.  Then a different shop drops 15 bucks...... Cycle continues.  Now it becomes who blinks first.  How many places can cut margin and still keep the lights on due to a silly war a few dollars at a time.  Shop after Shop bails, consumers get mad at loss of retailers they liked.  This keeps going until there is one left standing, which is almost certainly going to be the one that started the largest, so someplace like Amazon wins, and then once the last competitor is gone after the price hit 700 bucks, they turn around and the price goes to 1200 USD.   This has been going on in business since forever. But now as direct sales from manufactures has become a much more practical thing in the internet age there is a way for companies to change this.    The Manufacture->Distributor->Wholesaler->Retailer->Customer model with no skipping steps and each adding their own markup business model is dead.  Endless companies still work this way, they just don't realize how soon/quick a new player is going to go Manufacture->Customer  and blow up the world they knew.  Set pricing means both or any variation of these models can co-exist.

Apple gave the market stability, companies who sold stuff below cost and would make it up in volume went away.   If you want to end up with 1 retailer for all things in the future (Buy-N-Large as the Movie Wall-E had) then having shops drive the price and create destructive price wars, then sure, don't have pricing like Festool does.  People don't want to live thru a Wall-Mart style destruction cycle, not in their town, not online.  Sure they are cheap when they are new and growing, but once everyone else is dead they charge what ever they want.

Consumers like consistent pricing.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5695
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2018, 01:18 AM »
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

It's not price fixing.   If Festool called up Mafell and other members of the Track Saw Manufactures Association of Earth and decided on a price they would all charge for track saws, that would be price fixing. This sort of action is taken seriously in most all countries including countries like the US.

Festool makes the products and says it cost X amount. There is no price fixing when the maker of it decides the price on their own. That's what every product made has. One company can not "price fix" by itself.

A company like Festool does not have to sell thru 3rd parties.  They could just sell them all themselves and the price would be the price just like it is now.  They give others the ability to sell Festool products and in exchange those re-sellers agree to the price. 

When you don't control the price across the board you get all forms of problem, mainly scammers. People go "price hunting" find some shop with a price much lower than the rest, so they buy from it and think they are getting a deal.  Maybe the product will ship, maybe they never see it, or maybe random charges end up on credit card that can't be explained, or hidden fees.  Have a problem, oops that website doesn't exist anymore, where did they go.  And will the people who got taken say "I made a mistake and didn't buy from a reputable shop?"  No, they will go online and curse the manufacture.   Having the price be the same means everyone is on the same page, people buy from where they feel is reputable, or maybe they liked the staff, or they buy from the local store since the online place is no cheaper and it means they can have the product that day and not pay shipping.

Beyond scammers, it becomes the race to the bottom.  Product cost 1000 USD.  Someone decides they can cut it to 990 USD.  Suddenly other retailers find no one is buying because people cared that much about 10 bucks (same people who drive cross town to save 2 cents on gas and thing they are "saving").  So now everyone drops 10 bucks.  Then a different shop drops 15 bucks...... Cycle continues.  Now it becomes who blinks first.  How many places can cut margin and still keep the lights on due to a silly war a few dollars at a time.  Shop after Shop bails, consumers get mad at loss of retailers they liked.  This keeps going until there is one left standing, which is almost certainly going to be the one that started the largest, so someplace like Amazon wins, and then once the last competitor is gone after the price hit 700 bucks, they turn around and the price goes to 1200 USD.   This has been going on in business since forever. But now as direct sales from manufactures has become a much more practical thing in the internet age there is a way for companies to change this.    The Manufacture->Distributor->Wholesaler->Retailer->Customer model with no skipping steps and each adding their own markup business model is dead.  Endless companies still work this way, they just don't realize how soon/quick a new player is going to go Manufacture->Customer  and blow up the world they knew.  Set pricing means both or any variation of these models can co-exist.

Apple gave the market stability, companies who sold stuff below cost and would make it up in volume went away.   If you want to end up with 1 retailer for all things in the future (Buy-N-Large as the Movie Wall-E had) then having shops drive the price and create destructive price wars, then sure, don't have pricing like Festool does.  People don't want to live thru a Wall-Mart style destruction cycle, not in their town, not online.  Sure they are cheap when they are new and growing, but once everyone else is dead they charge what ever they want.

Consumers like consistent pricing.

Wow, huge story in which about everything about economics, law and consumer psychology is plain wrong. But thanks for your thoughts.

- It IS price fixing.

- Consumers like LOW pricing.

- Competition does not lead to monopolists and scammers, but to low prices.

Offline TheSergeant

  • Posts: 89
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2018, 01:47 AM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2196
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2018, 09:52 AM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....
   I don't get you at all. You already OWNED all of those tools, you paid the money and you seem to say you were enjoying using them. Maybe you made money with them as well?
  So, you're selling them off because you're 'betting' the value of them is going to fall drastically in the future or that tools which have never been posted as prone to failure are going to fail on you?   I don't see a single Kapex in your 'sold off' list.
 This makes no sense to me at all since none of what you sold off is ever really talked about as fragile in the least here on FOG and other Forums.   [huh]
 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 56
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2018, 12:53 PM »
I don't get it either. 

The tools are good, some are excellent. They provide functionality that you'll need to replicate somehow, after selling existing green tools at 50-80% of new cost.

Like everyone else here, I see full well that some accessories are pretty poorly designed others are positively horrid (MFT3 protractor and rail locks, LR32 distance stop,  plastic accessories for the otherwise excellent DF500, etc, etc) but i can't easily replace them.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

CT 26E • MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline TheSergeant

  • Posts: 89
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2018, 02:36 PM »
I'm abandoning the brand as well.  I've owned most of the Festool line and have been selling everything off.  The only tools I'm planning on keeping are the OF1400, Domino 500 and my RO150.  Everything else has been sold.  That includes (2) TS55s, Trion, Carvex, CXS, (3) MFT3s, OF1010, CT22, ATF55, RO125, ETS125 and I'm sure others I'm forgetting, not to mention accessories and rails and other small items.  I'm just not seeing the innovations in the products that warrant the kind of price premium and I don't trust the longevity of the products anymore.  I'd rather offload them now while people are still willing to pay close to retail for a used "luxury brand tool".  The annual price increase and the "Hurry, buy now, prices are rising" sales strategy is also getting ridiculous.  I really never thought I'd jump ship but it's just getting silly at this point.  I used to direct people towards Festool, now I find myself persuading people away from the brand.  It's too bad really....
   I don't get you at all. You already OWNED all of those tools, you paid the money and you seem to say you were enjoying using them. Maybe you made money with them as well?
  So, you're selling them off because you're 'betting' the value of them is going to fall drastically in the future or that tools which have never been posted as prone to failure are going to fail on you?   I don't see a single Kapex in your 'sold off' list.
 This makes no sense to me at all since none of what you sold off is ever really talked about as fragile in the least here on FOG and other Forums.   [huh]

I didn't just sell them to sell them.  I started looking at what what other manufacturers were offering and realized there much better tools being sold at much lower prices.  I sold my Festools and replaced them with better tools and literally had $1,000+ left in my pocket.  I did it now because there's still a demand for Festool in the used market for hobbyist and I saw an opportunity to upgrade and make money at the same time, which is almost unheard of.  The demand is there because people still perceive these tools as being superior, in part, because of their price.  I think people are waking up though and I don't think the demand in the used market is going to be there in a year, or two or three.   

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 11499
  • Another Avatar Coming Soon
Re: Festool price rant
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2018, 04:47 PM »
Well, what started as a proclaimed rant has produced a thread where many have provided thoughts and insights for Festool and the rest of the internet to read.  But sensing that this thread has run its practical course whereas the prices in effect will remain in effect unless Festool takes action mid-sales-year and Festool won't discuss marketing strategy in public, I am going to lock this thread.

Hopefully everyone will have the time and inkling to go and safely use their tools of whatever color.

Peter Halle - Moderator