Having trouble with your Festool power tool? Well, we're here to help you. Before posting to the forum, give us a chance to diagnose and resolve your issue. In the U.S. and Canada, call us toll-free at 888-337-8600 on Monday-Friday between 8a-5p EST or contact us via email at service@festoolusa.com. For other countries, please visit http://www.festool.com for contact information for your local Festool service department.

Author Topic: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails  (Read 8322 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2017, 01:40 AM »
@Cheese

Yeah, you're asking the tough question - when does the rail to rail channel width/thickness mean and variation become noticeable to the saw.  This then will relate to the "tightness" of the gibs on the saw base, pushing the front mating channel on the saw base into the front channel of the rail, and the saw bottom plate being pulled into the rear face of the rails.  Once set for one rail, any looseness or increased tightness when the saw enters the second rail would seem to indicate the second rail's mating channel was not nominally the same width/thickness as that of the rail to which the saw was adjusted.

Also, might dimensional variations in the underneath channels of the 2 rails effectively skew the alignment of the top channels to each other if the bottom channels are connected first?  If so, does this suggest the possibility of placement of the connectors and sequence and methods by which they are secured being contributors to the issue?  Of course, this all becomes moot if ALL rails are extruded to spec (whatever that may be).

It's late, I'm going back to bed; I'll see what's here tomorrow.

Don
Dr.D

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2017, 01:43 AM »
@Cheese

One more thing what brand of café bike is that in your avatar?  I drive a Honda VT1100C bagger.
Dr.D

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3734
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2017, 09:34 AM »
It's late, I'm going back to bed; I'll see what's here tomorrow.

Don, not much here today...seems like we bored the others out of their skulls last night. [eek]

That was originally a 1973 Norton Interstate that I purchased new, drove it in that configuration for a year and then changed it over to a Commando variant and then decided to cafe it. The cool thing is that the cafe parts are all circa 1974-1975. Rear-sets, bars, Dunstall exhaust, Borrani alum wheels, fairing, Megacycle cam, heads, pinstriped paint and gold-leafing, yada, yada are all old school.

I've got the oil tank off of her now because I'm chasing down...wait for it...an oil leak. [doh] [jawdrop] [doh]




Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2017, 10:37 AM »
@Cheese

Yeah, I recon we did.  But you know what, it beat just whining about the issue.  Every now and then there must be a technical approach to problem causation and solving, not just lip service.

Now about you're café racer - wow, wow, wow; I may even be totally jealous.  Not really jealous, I'm just glad you've got such a FINE ride - bet it sounds awesome!

Well if others see the rail problem or possibly the underlying problem of product quality as an issue(s), I'll step back and let them take wherever.  I am grateful for your  input; especially good to see your numbers correlated with mine.  Guess I spent too much time getting paid to do this and being successful in doing this back in the world.
Dr.D

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7259
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2017, 11:44 AM »
It's late, I'm going back to bed; I'll see what's here tomorrow.

Don, not much here today...seems like we bored the others out of their skulls last night. [eek] .......

I wasn't borded out of my skull until you guys started talking about you bikes. [tongue]

All joking aside, I don't care much as to the why the rails are out of spec.  That's Festool's problem to sort out, and they need to sort it out.  Very high prices tags come with very high expectations. 

BTW, my LR32 rails don't mate up well and it is a total PIA drilling holes.  As the first gib on the LR32 base hits the wider rail it is much harder to push along.  So much so you think it is locked into one of the holes causing you to misdrill a hole if you aren't extremely vigilant.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3734
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2017, 12:19 PM »

Very high prices tags come with very high expectations. 

BTW, my LR32 rails don't mate up well and it is a total PIA drilling holes.  As the first gib on the LR32 base hits the wider rail it is much harder to push along.  So much so you think it is locked into one of the holes causing you to misdrill a hole if you aren't extremely vigilant.

Very high prices tags come with very high expectations.   So very true... [thumbs up]

Interestingly enough, of the 2 rails that I connect together all of the time, one is a standard 1400 and the other is a 1400 LR32. I've had no problems connecting or using this combo. You can feel a slight difference in saw movement (3 different saws) as they travel
down the rails, but that's it. 

Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2017, 12:21 PM »
@Brice Burrell

Brice, great to have your input - just finished reviewing your supplemental manual on Kapex, a great resource, Thank You.

So, do you just tough through it when using your LR32 with connected rails?  Does that throw off your hole spacing distance from the reference edge?

Always welcome your insights - even if you're not a bike driver [big grin]

Don
Dr.D

Offline CADru

  • Posts: 40
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2017, 12:27 PM »
@CADru

Can/will you take the top channel width measurement at each end and in the center of your rails and post them?

Thanks,

DrD
@DrD

Here are my rail measurements. The first 2 rails in the list are the rails mentioned in the OP. All my rails were puchased from same local dealer within a 2-3 month time frame, Q1 2016. I don't have a purchase record for the 1400 listed first below. This rail was sent to me when I sent saw in for repair. This 1400 is ~0.008 smaller then the other rails.


Rail: End w/Lettering - Middle - Opposite End
1400: 0.627 - 0.626 - 0.627
1400/LR32: 0.633 - 0.634 - 0.634
Additional rails
800: 0.634 - 0.634 - 0.634
1080: 0.634 - 0.634 - 0.634
1900: 0.634 - 0.633 - 0.634
2700: 0.633 - 0.634 - 0.633

Offline CADru

  • Posts: 40
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2017, 12:31 PM »
Don, not much here today...seems like we bored the others out of their skulls last night. [eek]
@Cheese
Boring tool talk... never heard of such a thing  [big grin]

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3040
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2017, 12:43 PM »
The tracking spine is supposed to be 16mm. I'd measure using mm rather than inches.

I have a bunch of the older guide rails (single groove) and they were a pain to join not only because they could use only one connector but also because the width of the tracking spines on the rails varied from 15.8mm to 16.1mm (from one rail to another not from end to end).

It seems it isn't practical to expect Festool to maintain strict tolerance on the rail extrusions but maybe wouldn't be so difficult for them to measure tracking spines so we could order something within 1/10mm of what we want to match. They could make simple go/no-go gauges at 15.9, 16.0 and 16.1mm (and reject anything above or below that range) and label the rails for size.

Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2017, 12:59 PM »
@CADru

Good Morning!  Thanks for the data.  I incorporated your data into mine & found, using fuzzy statistics, that the tool guide channel protruding up from the 1400 rail sent you by Festool is statistically different/smaller than all the other rails measured thus far.  Good job.

@TylerC

Be interested to see what Festool has to say about the change in dimension for this feature.

@Michael Kellough,

Thanks for the input.  None of my precision calipers measure in metric, thus easier for me to go on with Imperial, but numerically converting, the values are in the 16 mm + range.  I think the point here is that the "new" rail sent to @CADru does appear to be statistically smaller than others posted so far.

@Cheese

Have to admit, while enjoying retirement, I do miss this stuff!

Now @TylerC , with all this, what is Festool going to do?  This would seem to put a serious hiccup in their System Concept.

DrD
Dr.D

Offline CADru

  • Posts: 40
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2017, 01:06 PM »
The tracking spine is supposed to be 16mm. I'd measure using mm rather than inches.


Wanted to stay with same unit of measure that @DrD posted for comparison. Using mm the 1400 in question is different (from my other rails) by 0.2032 mm. Comparing this across the other rails which is only a 0.0254 mm difference, now that's a tolerance I can live with compared to the cost.


I'll be taking my mic on future rail purchase runs.

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2419
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2017, 02:11 PM »
Checking the Guide Rail dimensions before you buy might work out for those that can purchase locally, but what do you do when you do not live close to a dealer and need to purchase online and have the rail shipped? Shipping these rails back and forth until you get an acceptable fit will not work well.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2017, 02:19 PM »
@Corwin

Agree 100%.  If we are buying a system component, why should we, the user, need to check ANY dimension prior to purchase?  That is about as absurd as having to check the width and thickness of the spades on an electrical cord to ensure it will fit our standard wall outlet plug before buying.
Dr.D

Offline CADru

  • Posts: 40
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2017, 03:36 PM »
@Corwin @DrD

I concur, having to check this is absurd. IMO the rail track difference with these rails is unacceptable. More reason to understand why this is the case. Just saying that since experiencing this and fortunate to have local dealer the mic goes with. I shutter at the thought of even having to have a rail shipped from vendor and arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.


Dealer not really "that" local but, who wouldn't drive to a Festool dealer that's just an hour away. Not to mention no sales tax.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2017, 05:53 PM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10937
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2017, 06:10 PM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

Only here in the US.  You guys down under are on your own.   [big grin]

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Bob Marino

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 2926
    • bobmarinosbesttools.com
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2017, 08:54 PM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

  Ha, ha, if only anyone could. Best we can do is over-box and/or over-pack, but unfortunately, UPS can be brutal and once in a while there is a bent/damaged rail. Then of course we send a replacement....
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
            http://bobmarinosbesttools.com
                   Service As It Should Be

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2017, 03:34 AM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

Only here in the US.  You guys down under are on your own.   [big grin]

Peter

Touché  [wink]

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3734
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2017, 11:47 AM »
Well here's a summation of the saw guide track widths that have been gathered so far. I just took the raw data and calculated the mean width of each saw guide track so that they would be easy to compare. What immediately jumps out as an outlier in the group is the mean of .627 for the CADru 1400 rail.

At this juncture, I think it's reasonable to ask @TylerC the question, if this falls within Festool's standard for manufacturing tolerances, and if it does, then what method would Festool recommend to use to join this rail to another to allow them to work in unison?

The OP has stated that he's joined the 2 rails together and that the saw catches/stops at the junction of the 2 rails. 

Festool                DrD            CADru            Cheese
Rails                   Mean           Mean             Mean
800                    0.634           0.634   
1080                  0.637           0.634   
1400                  0.635          0.627               0.633
LR 32 1400       0.633          0.634               0.634
1900                  0.634          0.634   
2700                                      0.633   

Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2017, 12:15 PM »
@Cheese
@TylerC
@CADru
@Gman70

Thanks @Cheese for the summary.

A little more investigation reveals there was another post about this very same issue, Mar 27, 2017 "Guide Rails' Thickness Don't Match" by @Gman70 wherein he had exact problem experienced by @CADru.  It is the 18th post down under "Festool Problems".

Anyone care to guess how Festool responded?  Yup, you appear to be correct - apparently NOTHING, not even platitudes, nothing.  There were even more users who posted on that thread they too had similar issues between/among rails.

The non-responsiveness by Festool is disquieting.  What is it going to take to get Festool to acknowledge that there are serious issues with their "Integrated System Approach"?
Dr.D

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2017, 01:50 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.


Anyone care to guess how Festool responded?  Yup, you appear to be correct - apparently NOTHING, not even platitudes, nothing.  There were even more users who posted on that thread they too had similar issues between/among rails.


Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.

Offline Gman70

  • Posts: 4
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2017, 02:12 PM »
Coming in late in the conversation because I saw that I was mentioned, but it's interesting to see so many Festool users doing what we would expect Festool to be doing!

When I experienced this issue, I called Festool support, thinking that it would be a simple case of switching out one of the rails.  To my surprise, they wanted nothing to do with it.  Rather than solving my problem, they were focused on making it just not their problem.  The first person I spoke to just said "no two rails are the same, and if you want to make long cuts you should buy the longer rail"!  Not what I expected to hear after buying a new saw, two rails, and some overpriced metal bars that have one purpose only - to connect two rails.  I was getting nowhere fast, so I said I wanted to speak to someone else.  After a long delay, the second guy came on and basically repeated what the first guy had said.  Looking at the data, it seems that they were wrong - some rails are the same, or at least the same enough! 

Mine was an online order, and it was the dealer who went out of his way to send me a new rail in the end, rather than taking Festool's approach of denying that there was a problem.  If changing the rail is not an option, then a one time workaround that one member suggested was to sand down the wider spine to make it match (assuming it still works with any other rails you may have).  While it's still a workaround, at least it's a one time workaround.

Now that my rails are within a couple of thousandths, I'm reasonably happy with the tool, but I just can't get past the lack of support from Festool.  They could have easily admitted that this was a problem and switched out one of the rails like my dealer did, and I would have been a happy customer, but they were so dismissive and arrogant, that it was enough to convince me never to buy another Festool product again - and buying tools is one of my favorite things to do!  I'm sure there are some good people there who genuinely want to help, but the two I spoke to didn't.  If I wanted to spend good money to get treated that way, I could have just bought a ticket on an overbooked United flight!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 02:16 PM by Gman70 »

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2017, 02:26 PM »
@Gman70 I'm sorry if anyone at Festool gave the impression that your concern wasn't taken seriously. I am making sure that the appropriate people are aware of this thread including your post.

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2017, 05:01 PM »
Earlier today I reached out to the OP to get him taken care while we look into the large guide rail connection topic.

Offline CADru

  • Posts: 40
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2017, 05:27 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10937
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2017, 06:21 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

@CADru , perhaps I can offer some perspective after watching threads here as a moderator for now 8 years.  You can't follow everything.  This goes to both as a volunteer or a Festool employee who has other duties.  Yes, should perhaps it work better, and the system is set up to allow someone like Tyler or myself or Seth know when a post is made in a particular area of the forum (selectable by each), but in real life that might mean that someone is dealing with other responsibilities that might stretch over a day or so and then the immediate radar image is lost in the clutter of the next time period.

That answer might not be what people want to hear, but that is reality at this point.  The forum is like a value added service - not a primary essential service.  Those are my words - not Festool's.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2017, 06:27 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

Sorry, I was referring the thread from a few months ago that was in the "Festool Tool Problems" board

Offline CADru

  • Posts: 40
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2017, 06:35 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

Sorry, I was referring the thread from a few months ago that was in the "Festool Tool Problems" board
Yeah, a minute didn't go by after I posted that I realized that was most likely the case  [big grin]

Offline DrD

  • Posts: 396
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2017, 06:45 PM »
@CADru

Glad @TylerC  has reached out to you; I wonder if he or someone else has reached out to @Gman70 for his exact problems?

I logged onto the Festool - US website today, and was greeted with the following all-prettified-up banner... "The Festool System - unprecedented tools for the uncompromising craftsman."  That is interesting on so many levels and in so many ways.

This is a Festool company site is it not?  It is, and has been for some number of years, manned by marketing, whose purview - not "prevue" - does not include issues of this nature.  ... I am tempted to go on, but that seems to be rather like beating a long dead horse.

@Cheese, I'm wondering if we should not submit a bill to Festool, maybe thru @TylerC for the work we did that they should have done on the specification issue?  Let me know.

DrD
Dr.D