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Author Topic: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails  (Read 8161 times)

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Offline CADru

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Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« on: April 27, 2017, 07:07 PM »
Is the standard FS 1400/2 guide rail milled from a different "mold" then the FS 1400/2-LR 32 rail? When I purchased my TS 55 back in January 2016 I opted to swap the standard rail for the LR 32 rail. A few months ago my saw goes in for repair. They ship me a new saw and a new FS 1400 guide rail to boot. (Festool's way of saying "sorry" for sending my repaired saw to the wrong location 3000 miles away) So anyway, I'm attempting to connect the 2 rails (1400 & 1400 LR 32) with my TS 55 tracking nicely on the LR 32 when she hits the new 1400 there is more play then I'd like. If I adjust my TS 55 to the standard 1400 she will not ride onto the LR 32 smoothly. So I'm assuming these different rail types are not designed to be connected?


Though I do have other rails purchased 1-2 months apart that track the same as the LR 32 rail. For some reason this "free" rail Festool sent requires me to re-adjust my saw for use and only can be used individually.


Has anyone ever experienced this issue?
I connect my rails using the Betterley straightline connector

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Offline Svar

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 07:12 PM »
They are supposed to be identical, but sometimes are not. You are not alone with this problem. Try to exchange one of the rails.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 09:24 AM »
The LR 32 guide rail will connect with a standard guide rail. One of our trainers put together a short video that quickly walks through how to connect rails accurately:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BSleKgKDBn6

Sometimes the two rails won't have exactly the same thickness — either from wear or based on age of each rail. If this is the case for you, just make sure that the thinner rail is placed behind the thicker one so that it doesn't get caught as you make your cut.

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 11:49 AM »
@TylerC

After having read and re-read Tyler's response to the op, I am really put-off by his "dismissive" remarks.  I'm not trying to get on a tirade about what we expect for the price we pay - BUT.  One of Festool's marketing claims is the "System Approach/Concept."  Then yet another is to adjust your tools to their rails.  The op's situation, coupled with Tyler's remarks flies in the face of this.

Having spent the last 25 years as a consultant to the steel industry, I can assure you I am well familiar with manufacturing tolerances.  If Festool cannot hold their extruders or extruded product suppliers to tolerances that allow for their tools to be used as they advertise, they should 1) change their marketing to " ...sometimes a system", 2) tighten up in-house quality assurance/control, or 3) find a better supplier.

And then to have their forum representative to blow off the whole issue is quite unacceptable!
Dr.D

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 03:48 PM »
@TylerC

After having read and re-read Tyler's response to the op, I am really put-off by his "dismissive" remarks.

I certainly didn't intend to seem dismissive of the question, and I apologize if it came off that way. (In rereading the question and my response, I definitely focused more on the "will the LR 32 rail connect with the traditional rail?" part and not enough on the "why isn't it a smoother connect?" part.) I spent time this morning with one of our applications specialists on this topic this morning, and he talked me through some of this.

I will also reach out to our product team and trainers to see if they have anything additional that might help regarding guide rail connections.

Offline antss

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 10:58 PM »
I cannot see the "trainers" having anything meaningful to offer.

Do they have any influence on the manufacturing process/operation or quality control or choice of suppliers or manuf. equipment ?  Or are they simply a public relations conduit trying their best to offer a workaround or damage control when a problem like this arises ?

Listen , I'm not picking on the trainers. I am being critical of management sending these guys out to put a bandaid on problem they had no hand in creating.

Your policy needs to be to exchange rails that don't mate up because YOU couldn't maintain a consistent manufacturing facility.  Or - are you now going to have the PR folks tell us they are now "wear items" ? ::)

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 11:48 PM »
I cannot see the "trainers" having anything meaningful to offer.

Do they have any influence on the manufacturing process/operation or quality control or choice of suppliers or manuf. equipment ? Or are they simply a public relations conduit trying their best to offer a workaround or damage control when a problem like this arises ?

Listen , I'm not picking on the trainers. I am being critical of management sending these guys out to put a bandaid on problem they had no hand in creating.

Your policy needs to be to exchange rails that don't mate up because YOU couldn't maintain a consistent manufacturing facility.  Or - are you now going to have the PR folks tell us they are now "wear items" ? ::)


I know you say you are not picking on the trainers. However the Festool trainers are a lot more than what your comments suggest. And the quotes you put on the word trainers make me think that you don't even think they are actually trainers. Perhaps they are not what you seem to think they are?

Seth

Online Peter Halle

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2017, 08:40 AM »
There is an internal informational pipeline at Festool and I can assure you that the trainers are involved and their input is valued.  They are not PR related but let's face facts - Festool is a tool manufacturer and seller.  They are also naturally involved with marketing.  No tool sales = no training necessary. Festool trainers regularly travel to Germany for training on new products and during their time there spend a great amount of time with the engineers and others in the development end.

I can state thru personal experience and interaction as a user here in the US that the Festool employed trainers are full of information and honestly I have never heard a negative thing about them.  They are known for spreading knowledge and giving genuine advice even if that results in a non-sale of a product.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 08:55 AM »
Let's not get sidetracked on the trainers.  The issue is the guide rails.  I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure there is no solution to two rails not mating up properly.  The problem is it will adversely affect the cut quality.  You don't buy rails at $100-$340 each, and saws for $660-$780 to have poor results.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 09:05 AM »
@Brice Burrell

Thank you Brice!  I was about to post the same thing about moving off the topic and unto the trainers.  Love the stuff that comes from the trainers, AND they are NOT the issue, especially the issue brought to attention by the op.

The issue is precisely what you said, what the op said and what I said.  Either Festool tools/accessories work together as a system or they do not!  This, and other issues of lack of/poor quality SHOULD NEVER be acceptable!  What else does Festool have to offer, other that the system approach and exceedingly high quality.

I fear we are at risk of having this fade away, without something positive on this issue from Festool. 
Dr.D

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 10:26 AM »
No OT side track intended.  [off topic]


Seth

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 10:43 AM »
Non taken on your part Seth. 

The trainers and their input are an invaluable resource to us on the FOG.  I look forward to whatever they might have to offer on this issue, especially in terms of dealing with what might be a quality/specification breakdown.

DrD
Dr.D

Offline Svar

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 10:52 AM »
There is only one short term solution here. Festool should offer to swap the rails if they don't match. End of story. Long term solution is to improve tolerances on the product.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 11:02 AM by Svar »

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 11:10 AM »
The reason I brought up the trainers is that they don't seem to believe that this affects the quality of the cut. As they guys who use these tools all day every day, they might have some guidance -- no pun intended -- on connecting rails in ways that don't affect the quality or ease of the cut.

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 11:31 AM »
@TylerC

OK, getting them involved is good - to a point.  We cannot tolerate (by continuing to support in any manner) work-arounds necessitated by poor quality of product; if that is the case, change the marketing to "... a System Approach with Necessary Work-arounds."

As @Brice Burrell stated above, "... I'm pretty sure there is no solution to two rails not mating properly.  The problem is it will adversely affect cut quality.  You don't buy rails at $100-$349 each, and saws for $660 - $780 to have poor results."

Thus, I want to see, as one financially vested in a number of Festool products primarily buying into their marketing approach as their tolls working together as a "System", what they are going to do for the op, and as importantly, what they are going from this point forward about this problem - and make no mistake about it, this is a serious PROBLEM.
Dr.D

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 01:35 PM »
Went to the shop and took some measurements; this was no where close to a gauge R&R for those of you familiar with such.  Rather I took careful single (non-replicated) measurements at each end of my rails and in the middle.  Results:

   Rail      Purchase Date    Purchase Location    End with Lettering    Middle    Opposite End  - all measurements in inches
FS800          08/20/2013          Chicago, IL             0.634                0.635      0.633
FS/1080       04/13/2014          Bob Marino             0.636                0.638      0.636
1400/LR32   03/06/2013          Lombard, IL            0.633                0.634      0.632
FS1400        04/12/2013          Bob Marino             0.636                0.635      0.635
FS1900        05/27/2014          Bob Marino             0.635                0.634      0.632

These rails have been interconnected at various times, and I haven't noticed a problem.  Also note these rails came from 3 different sources, and were acquired over 1+ year span.  Further notice the last one was acquired May, 2014, almost 3 years ago.

None of this is to denigrate the op's stated problem.  Believing the op - and there is absolutely no reason to not believe - it would appear there has been a change at Festool, a slippage in quality assurance (which could include a change in suppliers without appropriate PPAP or otherwise assurance they were both capable and in control to meet spec), a loosening of specifications, or some other not so good process deviation.  Since Festool is a European company, doing business across the EU, I would suspect, unless regulations have changed, Festool is ISO-9000 certified, and as such, this should not be happening

So, one should ask and have answered:  What changed?  Two years ago the various rails seemed to fit together to give a System approach, now, perhaps not some much.
Dr.D

Offline antss

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 03:32 PM »
The reason I brought up the trainers is that they don't seem to believe that this affects the quality of the cut. As they guys who use these tools all day every day, they might have some guidance -- no pun intended -- on connecting rails in ways that don't affect the quality or ease of the cut.

Well, they use them day in and day out ; but to what end ? Are they actually making anything besides mock ups  ?  Something that's then sold on ?

Their job is to promote sunshine and roses so Festool can sell some more gear - right ?  Gonna be tough to keep their job if they're the least bit critical of their employer , especially in public. 

So, naturally it's in their best interest to find a workaround to all issues to keep the big machine running smoothly.

At a venerable law firm I worked at many moons ago we'd have called in the "fixer" to "handle" the client, or official , or opposing party so as to make that particular problem go away.   He wouldn't have been needed if we were able to SOLVE the problem on our own. It went away, but that's different than a solution in my book. 

Sounds to me like  the training staff has a somewhat similar function in their job description as well as being teachers.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 04:05 PM »
@antss Festool trainers were all professionals craftsmen before coming to Festool, and they continue to use the tools in various real-world situations. Their job is to teach users the most effective ways to use the tools. They answer questions and help people with frustrations they might experience.

A so-called "workaround" isn't about ignoring larger potential issues. It's about trying to help people today make the most of their tool as it exists now.

Again, my only point in bringing the trainers into this is that they might know of ways to improve the quality of the guide rail connections. In the exact same sentence that I mentioned the trainers, I said that I'd meet with the product team.

If the trainers have advice to offer on this, should I not share it?

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2017, 04:23 PM »
Of course the trainers' perspectives are vitally important!  My concern is this thread has become more focused upon the relevance of the trainers and less so on the op's issue.

DrD
Dr.D

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2017, 04:47 PM »
Of course the trainers' perspectives are vitally important!  My concern is this thread has become more focused upon the relevance of the trainers and less so on the op's issue.

DrD

I completely agree. I can't real add much to the original question until Monday -- and I'm at a family reunion this weekend -- so I'm bowing out for the moment.

Offline neilc

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2017, 04:50 PM »
Two thoughts:

1  - what is a reasonable 'tolerance' for rip cuts for woodworking with sheet goods?  In the case of DrD's measurements, .006 is about 2 sheets of paper thick.  For case goods made with plywood or MDF and then sanded, planed, joined and put into an installation, what should we expect in tolerance for our work?  I have and use a 6" digital caliper when running my planer and thicknessing.  Not so much for sheet goods, however.

I have done some projects like my chessboard in the projects area that I hand planed to .001 tolerance.  I've done metal lathe or milling machine work with a tolerance of .001 or higher on occasion.  But on most woodwork, I don't get that close.  And still strive for 'museum quality' in my work.  Frankly, the finger can feel more of a difference than the eye can see sometimes.

2 - what should we expect for guide rails in terms of tolerance since they are extrusions through a die that may vary over time / with wear, etc.  I wonder what Festool considers as agreeable tolerances?  I found a book on extrusions and tolerances - http://www.aec.org/?page=lib_designmanual - but wonder what Festool considers acceptable.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2017, 09:18 PM »
extrusions will vary dimensionally. Having spent more than a few days and nights in extrusion plants (US and China) I can tell you it is a moving target - unlike CNC machining.
In addition to die wear you also have the effect of the drawbench tensioning (stretching) the raw extruded shape. Last, but not least, heat treating can put a spin on dimensions (flatness and straightness).

The solution: if something does not line up - get other extrusions until you have a fit - that's real life. The call for perfection in extrusion tolerances does not promise to be very productive.

We can't wait for FESTOOL to improve their tolerances, so we will change extrusions until we get a match.
Hans
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Online Cheese

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2017, 11:03 PM »
Went to the shop and took some measurements; this was no where close to a gauge R&R for those of you familiar with such.  Rather I took careful single (non-replicated) measurements at each end of my rails and in the middle.  Results:

   Rail      Purchase Date    Purchase Location    End with Lettering    Middle    Opposite End  - all measurements in inches
FS800          08/20/2013          Chicago, IL             0.634                0.635      0.633
FS/1080       04/13/2014          Bob Marino             0.636                0.638      0.636
1400/LR32   03/06/2013          Lombard, IL            0.633                0.634      0.632
FS1400        04/12/2013          Bob Marino             0.636                0.635      0.635
FS1900        05/27/2014          Bob Marino             0.635                0.634      0.632


Those are really, really tight groupings. I'm actually very surprised they group that closely.
FS 800...range = +/-.001"
FS 1080...range = +/-.001"
1400/LR 32...+/-.001"
FS 1400...+/-.0005"
FS 1900...+/-.0015"

Considering that different extrusion dies have been used over the years, and they have probably been in various states of condition, that new extrusion dies have probably been introduced to manufacturing because of tolerance issues, and the rails have probably been manufactured in different manufacturing facilities, subject to slightly different aluminum chemistries, and also subject to slightly different QA techniques, and probably slightly different heat treating/tempering conditions, I find the above results pretty darn impressive. And as @DrD stated, he's had no issue with joining the above rails.

I'd be more interested in finding out what the dimensions of the 2 rails are in regards to the rails that @CADru originally tried to join together. That would provide more information that may resolve this issue

Offline Svar

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2017, 11:25 PM »
It would not be difficult to machine one side of the guide rib after extruding but before anodizing.

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2017, 11:52 PM »
@Cheese

Getting out on really thin ice, I did a quick analysis (tTest) and found absolutely no difference within a rail nor among all rails.  Now, this must not be considered as a statistical absolute, given the absurdly small sample size with no replications.  However, when considered with the anecdotal evidence of no difference in saw behavior on any of the rails, singly or connected, an inference can be made that the measurements are solid, and this collection of rails are all the same as regards this one dimensional characteristic.

So now, the question is, as you pointed out, what are the measurements for the op's rails.  If different, then something has changed.
Dr.D

Offline antss

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2017, 11:57 PM »
Sorry guys for giving you the wrong impression and sidetracking the discussion.

If you"ll re read my earlier post :  "Your policy needs to be to exchange rails that don't mate up because YOU couldn't maintain a consistent manufacturing facility"

My point is Festool needs to make good on (read: exchange) rails that don't match up.  Not to have a band aid suggested by the trainers, no matter how capable.

Seemingly , Brice, Svar, Hans and even DrD are in agreement with me on this point. 





Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2017, 12:01 AM »
@Hans Friedebach

Don't forget that radiator fins are largely extruded aluminum and there are very tight tolerances with those regarding pore/hole size, fin thickness, etc, and these tolerances must be held not only for the entire billet being extruded, but also among billets, over continuous production. 

While working with aluminum can be picky, it is routinely done to quite amazing tolerances and reproducibility - far beyond what would be needed to make guide rails work together for saw or router use.

DrD
Dr.D

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2017, 12:09 AM »
@antss

"... and even DrD..."  I didn't know our agreement on issue(s) was uncommon.  It's always good to have thorough discussion and evaluation of any issue/situation.  And, I do agree the op should get a replacement rail - he might want to provide Festool with the channel measurements of his rails, to ensure the replacement performs satisfactorily.

And, I do agree that if his measurements are significantly different from rail to rail, and from measurements submitted by other FOGgers (including mine) there must be root cause analysis, and permanent corrective action taken by Festool.

Are we still in agreement? [smile]
Dr.D

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2017, 12:15 AM »
@CADru

Can/will you take the top channel width measurement at each end and in the center of your rails and post them?

Thanks,

DrD
Dr.D

Online Cheese

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2017, 01:00 AM »
However, when considered with the anecdotal evidence of no difference in saw behavior on any of the rails, singly or connected, an inference can be made that the measurements are solid, and this collection of rails are all the same as regards this one dimensional characteristic.

So now, the question is, as you pointed out, what are the measurements for the op's rails.  If different, then something has changed.

FWIW...I took a quick measurement of the 3 rails that I own, purchased over 4 years from various suppliers, and found them all to be within the .632 to .635 range. Again, another very tight grouping.

I'm trying to understand the tolerance variance that renders the rails as being unsuitable for joining.

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2017, 01:40 AM »
@Cheese

Yeah, you're asking the tough question - when does the rail to rail channel width/thickness mean and variation become noticeable to the saw.  This then will relate to the "tightness" of the gibs on the saw base, pushing the front mating channel on the saw base into the front channel of the rail, and the saw bottom plate being pulled into the rear face of the rails.  Once set for one rail, any looseness or increased tightness when the saw enters the second rail would seem to indicate the second rail's mating channel was not nominally the same width/thickness as that of the rail to which the saw was adjusted.

Also, might dimensional variations in the underneath channels of the 2 rails effectively skew the alignment of the top channels to each other if the bottom channels are connected first?  If so, does this suggest the possibility of placement of the connectors and sequence and methods by which they are secured being contributors to the issue?  Of course, this all becomes moot if ALL rails are extruded to spec (whatever that may be).

It's late, I'm going back to bed; I'll see what's here tomorrow.

Don
Dr.D

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2017, 01:43 AM »
@Cheese

One more thing what brand of café bike is that in your avatar?  I drive a Honda VT1100C bagger.
Dr.D

Online Cheese

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2017, 09:34 AM »
It's late, I'm going back to bed; I'll see what's here tomorrow.

Don, not much here today...seems like we bored the others out of their skulls last night. [eek]

That was originally a 1973 Norton Interstate that I purchased new, drove it in that configuration for a year and then changed it over to a Commando variant and then decided to cafe it. The cool thing is that the cafe parts are all circa 1974-1975. Rear-sets, bars, Dunstall exhaust, Borrani alum wheels, fairing, Megacycle cam, heads, pinstriped paint and gold-leafing, yada, yada are all old school.

I've got the oil tank off of her now because I'm chasing down...wait for it...an oil leak. [doh] [jawdrop] [doh]




Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2017, 10:37 AM »
@Cheese

Yeah, I recon we did.  But you know what, it beat just whining about the issue.  Every now and then there must be a technical approach to problem causation and solving, not just lip service.

Now about you're café racer - wow, wow, wow; I may even be totally jealous.  Not really jealous, I'm just glad you've got such a FINE ride - bet it sounds awesome!

Well if others see the rail problem or possibly the underlying problem of product quality as an issue(s), I'll step back and let them take wherever.  I am grateful for your  input; especially good to see your numbers correlated with mine.  Guess I spent too much time getting paid to do this and being successful in doing this back in the world.
Dr.D

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2017, 11:44 AM »
It's late, I'm going back to bed; I'll see what's here tomorrow.

Don, not much here today...seems like we bored the others out of their skulls last night. [eek] .......

I wasn't borded out of my skull until you guys started talking about you bikes. [tongue]

All joking aside, I don't care much as to the why the rails are out of spec.  That's Festool's problem to sort out, and they need to sort it out.  Very high prices tags come with very high expectations. 

BTW, my LR32 rails don't mate up well and it is a total PIA drilling holes.  As the first gib on the LR32 base hits the wider rail it is much harder to push along.  So much so you think it is locked into one of the holes causing you to misdrill a hole if you aren't extremely vigilant.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Online Cheese

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2017, 12:19 PM »

Very high prices tags come with very high expectations. 

BTW, my LR32 rails don't mate up well and it is a total PIA drilling holes.  As the first gib on the LR32 base hits the wider rail it is much harder to push along.  So much so you think it is locked into one of the holes causing you to misdrill a hole if you aren't extremely vigilant.

Very high prices tags come with very high expectations.   So very true... [thumbs up]

Interestingly enough, of the 2 rails that I connect together all of the time, one is a standard 1400 and the other is a 1400 LR32. I've had no problems connecting or using this combo. You can feel a slight difference in saw movement (3 different saws) as they travel
down the rails, but that's it. 

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2017, 12:21 PM »
@Brice Burrell

Brice, great to have your input - just finished reviewing your supplemental manual on Kapex, a great resource, Thank You.

So, do you just tough through it when using your LR32 with connected rails?  Does that throw off your hole spacing distance from the reference edge?

Always welcome your insights - even if you're not a bike driver [big grin]

Don
Dr.D

Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2017, 12:27 PM »
@CADru

Can/will you take the top channel width measurement at each end and in the center of your rails and post them?

Thanks,

DrD
@DrD

Here are my rail measurements. The first 2 rails in the list are the rails mentioned in the OP. All my rails were puchased from same local dealer within a 2-3 month time frame, Q1 2016. I don't have a purchase record for the 1400 listed first below. This rail was sent to me when I sent saw in for repair. This 1400 is ~0.008 smaller then the other rails.


Rail: End w/Lettering - Middle - Opposite End
1400: 0.627 - 0.626 - 0.627
1400/LR32: 0.633 - 0.634 - 0.634
Additional rails
800: 0.634 - 0.634 - 0.634
1080: 0.634 - 0.634 - 0.634
1900: 0.634 - 0.633 - 0.634
2700: 0.633 - 0.634 - 0.633

Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2017, 12:31 PM »
Don, not much here today...seems like we bored the others out of their skulls last night. [eek]
@Cheese
Boring tool talk... never heard of such a thing  [big grin]

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2017, 12:43 PM »
The tracking spine is supposed to be 16mm. I'd measure using mm rather than inches.

I have a bunch of the older guide rails (single groove) and they were a pain to join not only because they could use only one connector but also because the width of the tracking spines on the rails varied from 15.8mm to 16.1mm (from one rail to another not from end to end).

It seems it isn't practical to expect Festool to maintain strict tolerance on the rail extrusions but maybe wouldn't be so difficult for them to measure tracking spines so we could order something within 1/10mm of what we want to match. They could make simple go/no-go gauges at 15.9, 16.0 and 16.1mm (and reject anything above or below that range) and label the rails for size.

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2017, 12:59 PM »
@CADru

Good Morning!  Thanks for the data.  I incorporated your data into mine & found, using fuzzy statistics, that the tool guide channel protruding up from the 1400 rail sent you by Festool is statistically different/smaller than all the other rails measured thus far.  Good job.

@TylerC

Be interested to see what Festool has to say about the change in dimension for this feature.

@Michael Kellough,

Thanks for the input.  None of my precision calipers measure in metric, thus easier for me to go on with Imperial, but numerically converting, the values are in the 16 mm + range.  I think the point here is that the "new" rail sent to @CADru does appear to be statistically smaller than others posted so far.

@Cheese

Have to admit, while enjoying retirement, I do miss this stuff!

Now @TylerC , with all this, what is Festool going to do?  This would seem to put a serious hiccup in their System Concept.

DrD
Dr.D

Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2017, 01:06 PM »
The tracking spine is supposed to be 16mm. I'd measure using mm rather than inches.


Wanted to stay with same unit of measure that @DrD posted for comparison. Using mm the 1400 in question is different (from my other rails) by 0.2032 mm. Comparing this across the other rails which is only a 0.0254 mm difference, now that's a tolerance I can live with compared to the cost.


I'll be taking my mic on future rail purchase runs.

Online Corwin

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2017, 02:11 PM »
Checking the Guide Rail dimensions before you buy might work out for those that can purchase locally, but what do you do when you do not live close to a dealer and need to purchase online and have the rail shipped? Shipping these rails back and forth until you get an acceptable fit will not work well.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2017, 02:19 PM »
@Corwin

Agree 100%.  If we are buying a system component, why should we, the user, need to check ANY dimension prior to purchase?  That is about as absurd as having to check the width and thickness of the spades on an electrical cord to ensure it will fit our standard wall outlet plug before buying.
Dr.D

Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2017, 03:36 PM »
@Corwin @DrD

I concur, having to check this is absurd. IMO the rail track difference with these rails is unacceptable. More reason to understand why this is the case. Just saying that since experiencing this and fortunate to have local dealer the mic goes with. I shutter at the thought of even having to have a rail shipped from vendor and arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.


Dealer not really "that" local but, who wouldn't drive to a Festool dealer that's just an hour away. Not to mention no sales tax.

Offline Holmz

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2017, 05:53 PM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2017, 06:10 PM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

Only here in the US.  You guys down under are on your own.   [big grin]

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2017, 08:54 PM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

  Ha, ha, if only anyone could. Best we can do is over-box and/or over-pack, but unfortunately, UPS can be brutal and once in a while there is a bent/damaged rail. Then of course we send a replacement....
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
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                   Service As It Should Be

Offline Holmz

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2017, 03:34 AM »
@Corwin @DrD
... arrive undamaged. Unless of course that vendor is Bob Marino then you're probably safe that the rail is packaged to survive shipment.
...

Can Bob really "make UPS great again"?

Only here in the US.  You guys down under are on your own.   [big grin]

Peter

Touché  [wink]

Online Cheese

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2017, 11:47 AM »
Well here's a summation of the saw guide track widths that have been gathered so far. I just took the raw data and calculated the mean width of each saw guide track so that they would be easy to compare. What immediately jumps out as an outlier in the group is the mean of .627 for the CADru 1400 rail.

At this juncture, I think it's reasonable to ask @TylerC the question, if this falls within Festool's standard for manufacturing tolerances, and if it does, then what method would Festool recommend to use to join this rail to another to allow them to work in unison?

The OP has stated that he's joined the 2 rails together and that the saw catches/stops at the junction of the 2 rails. 

Festool                DrD            CADru            Cheese
Rails                   Mean           Mean             Mean
800                    0.634           0.634   
1080                  0.637           0.634   
1400                  0.635          0.627               0.633
LR 32 1400       0.633          0.634               0.634
1900                  0.634          0.634   
2700                                      0.633   

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2017, 12:15 PM »
@Cheese
@TylerC
@CADru
@Gman70

Thanks @Cheese for the summary.

A little more investigation reveals there was another post about this very same issue, Mar 27, 2017 "Guide Rails' Thickness Don't Match" by @Gman70 wherein he had exact problem experienced by @CADru.  It is the 18th post down under "Festool Problems".

Anyone care to guess how Festool responded?  Yup, you appear to be correct - apparently NOTHING, not even platitudes, nothing.  There were even more users who posted on that thread they too had similar issues between/among rails.

The non-responsiveness by Festool is disquieting.  What is it going to take to get Festool to acknowledge that there are serious issues with their "Integrated System Approach"?
Dr.D

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2017, 01:50 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.


Anyone care to guess how Festool responded?  Yup, you appear to be correct - apparently NOTHING, not even platitudes, nothing.  There were even more users who posted on that thread they too had similar issues between/among rails.


Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.

Offline Gman70

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2017, 02:12 PM »
Coming in late in the conversation because I saw that I was mentioned, but it's interesting to see so many Festool users doing what we would expect Festool to be doing!

When I experienced this issue, I called Festool support, thinking that it would be a simple case of switching out one of the rails.  To my surprise, they wanted nothing to do with it.  Rather than solving my problem, they were focused on making it just not their problem.  The first person I spoke to just said "no two rails are the same, and if you want to make long cuts you should buy the longer rail"!  Not what I expected to hear after buying a new saw, two rails, and some overpriced metal bars that have one purpose only - to connect two rails.  I was getting nowhere fast, so I said I wanted to speak to someone else.  After a long delay, the second guy came on and basically repeated what the first guy had said.  Looking at the data, it seems that they were wrong - some rails are the same, or at least the same enough! 

Mine was an online order, and it was the dealer who went out of his way to send me a new rail in the end, rather than taking Festool's approach of denying that there was a problem.  If changing the rail is not an option, then a one time workaround that one member suggested was to sand down the wider spine to make it match (assuming it still works with any other rails you may have).  While it's still a workaround, at least it's a one time workaround.

Now that my rails are within a couple of thousandths, I'm reasonably happy with the tool, but I just can't get past the lack of support from Festool.  They could have easily admitted that this was a problem and switched out one of the rails like my dealer did, and I would have been a happy customer, but they were so dismissive and arrogant, that it was enough to convince me never to buy another Festool product again - and buying tools is one of my favorite things to do!  I'm sure there are some good people there who genuinely want to help, but the two I spoke to didn't.  If I wanted to spend good money to get treated that way, I could have just bought a ticket on an overbooked United flight!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 02:16 PM by Gman70 »

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2017, 02:26 PM »
@Gman70 I'm sorry if anyone at Festool gave the impression that your concern wasn't taken seriously. I am making sure that the appropriate people are aware of this thread including your post.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2017, 05:01 PM »
Earlier today I reached out to the OP to get him taken care while we look into the large guide rail connection topic.

Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2017, 05:27 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

Online Peter Halle

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2017, 06:21 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

@CADru , perhaps I can offer some perspective after watching threads here as a moderator for now 8 years.  You can't follow everything.  This goes to both as a volunteer or a Festool employee who has other duties.  Yes, should perhaps it work better, and the system is set up to allow someone like Tyler or myself or Seth know when a post is made in a particular area of the forum (selectable by each), but in real life that might mean that someone is dealing with other responsibilities that might stretch over a day or so and then the immediate radar image is lost in the clutter of the next time period.

That answer might not be what people want to hear, but that is reality at this point.  The forum is like a value added service - not a primary essential service.  Those are my words - not Festool's.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2017, 06:27 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

Sorry, I was referring the thread from a few months ago that was in the "Festool Tool Problems" board

Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2017, 06:35 PM »
I appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.

Honestly, this wasn’t a matter of us avoiding it. It was a matter of me not seeing it. I’m not able to actively monitor every board each day. If you want to make sure that I see something, the best options are to tag me or put it in the “Ask Festool” board.

We’re preparing to have a few more Festool employees join the FOG in order to offer more support.


That's where it's posted is it not? In the Ask Festool board.

Sorry, I was referring the thread from a few months ago that was in the "Festool Tool Problems" board
Yeah, a minute didn't go by after I posted that I realized that was most likely the case  [big grin]

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2017, 06:45 PM »
@CADru

Glad @TylerC  has reached out to you; I wonder if he or someone else has reached out to @Gman70 for his exact problems?

I logged onto the Festool - US website today, and was greeted with the following all-prettified-up banner... "The Festool System - unprecedented tools for the uncompromising craftsman."  That is interesting on so many levels and in so many ways.

This is a Festool company site is it not?  It is, and has been for some number of years, manned by marketing, whose purview - not "prevue" - does not include issues of this nature.  ... I am tempted to go on, but that seems to be rather like beating a long dead horse.

@Cheese, I'm wondering if we should not submit a bill to Festool, maybe thru @TylerC for the work we did that they should have done on the specification issue?  Let me know.

DrD
Dr.D

Online Peter Halle

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2017, 07:04 PM »
 [dead horse]
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2017, 05:43 PM »
[dead horse]

Too funny... [big grin]  Is that... could it be... no wait a minute.... it is..., that's a smiley beating a dead horse! Not even breaking a sweat!

Thanks for that LOL after a challenging work day, HA!

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2017, 09:36 AM »
@TylerC
[quoteI appreciate everyone contributing their findings on this. I’ve sent all of this over to HQ. As a marketing guy in the US, this level of detail on these issues is outside of my prevue, so I personally can’t offer any quick answers.][/quote]

It's been a week, are we going to hear a response from those to whom you sent this?  You also mentioned you would get the trainers to offer work-arounds/possible solutions - where are they?  I don't think this should be left alone, swept under the rug; there should be some resolution, some response, NOT silence from Festool.

DrD
Dr.D

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2017, 10:37 AM »
We've reached out to the OP directly to get him taken care of. The HQ quality department is also reaching out to him to get more information.

Offline DrD

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2017, 11:20 AM »
@TylerC

It is great you're in contact with the op, and he is being taken care of!  What about @Gman70?  What about other Festool users who experience the same issue? 

The information I'm requesting is for the rest of us, the FOG community, to know.  The op was not and is not the only user affected by this issue.  Since many of us have as our only source the mail order dealers, we can't take our mics/calipers with us when wanting another rail.  I doubt seriously that it is reasonable to ask Bob Marino or any other dealer to ship us a rail which measures 0.634 +/- 0.002".  It is really important that the community be made aware of the official Festool resolution/position regarding this issue.

Your posted approach of "... the original op has been taken care of..." is rather myopic, and does not serve the FOG community AT ALL.

DrD
Dr.D

Offline CADru

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2017, 09:50 PM »
UPDATE
What ever happened with CADru and the inconsistent 1400 guide rail? Well, this is a bit of a read but wanted to share my experience with those commenting and giving feedback to the OP.


@TylerC connected me with the Head of Quality at the Wendlingen plant in Germany to resolve the dimensional issue addressed with my "out of spec" 1400 guide rail. Festool Germany took an active role in understanding my concern/issues with this rail. I was impressed. Having the opportunity to communicate my concerns about a product directly with the Head of Quality for that manufacture really says something to me about a tool manufacturer. Many emails went back and forth with questions asked/answered.


The initial impression I was getting was that if I wanted an "accurate" cut at a certain length then use a single rail that length but, if I wanted to lower my standards (unacceptable) and produce an "inaccurate" cut then I should connect two shorter rails with the connector rod system. So Festool provides a way to connect two shorter rails... only if I want an "inaccurate" cut? hmmm... Then why even provide a way to connect two rails when the resulting cut is NOT accurate. I didn't get it.


I disagreed with the suggestion of using a longer rail if I required an accurate cut. Sure a single rail at the length of cut required is ideal but it's not possible for me to transport a 2700 safety to a site. Festool creates a rail connection system and transporting two 1400's in my rail bag safety is doable. Besides a 2700 (106") only leaves 10"/2 of starter/end rail OH for a 96" cut. I prefer 2800 (hence the connection of two 1400's) for ripping down 96" sheet goods. At the time I was working with 8' and 10' sheets of 3/8" PVC at different locations. My 1900 connected to the 1400 handled my 10' cutting requirement no problem.


All said and done the end result was a replacement rail from Festool. With a little mix up in the process Festool sent me a 2700 and then sent me the replacement 1400. Both the 2700 and the 1400 replacement rails are same as my other rails with regards to the rails track. These two replacement rails can be connected to all my other rails and my TS 55 tracks across the connection point to the joining rail with no issues. They are spot on dimension wise with my other existing rails as expected.


My objective was not to expect a replacement rail but, to address the rail inconsistency issue with Festool to help Festool sorta "grow" (I like to call it) and, if exists, identify a quality issue with manufacturing. I have not heard back from Christian in Germany as to the result of the 1400 rail in question. That's right Festool wanted the rail shipped back to Germany for quality checks in their lab. So they sent me a shipping label for me to send to their Lebanon USA facility. @TylerC then shipped the rail back to Germany for Christian.


I'm good in the rail department. And if I ever need to make a 39'-0" length cut in the field I'm ready. Just have to get a few more pairs of connector rods. [big grin]


Seriously though, thank you for all the feedback and interest.
A BIG thank you to @TylerC and Christian, from Germany, for taking the time to listen to their product end user and resolve the issue.


@antss @SRSemenza @Brice Burrell
@neilc @TSO Products @Cheese @Michael Kellough @Corwin @Holmz @Bob Marino @Svar @DrD
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 10:25 PM by CADru »

Offline antss

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2017, 08:48 PM »
And what of the internal discussion at Festool about quality control @TylerC ?

Has anyone looked into this, it's been a whole quarter since the discussion began.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2017, 09:08 PM »
@antss The rail in question was sent to the Head of Quality at the plant in Wendlingen for review. To be honest, if there are changes to the manufacturing or QA process as a result, I highly doubt that that information would be announced publicly.

Offline antss

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2017, 09:39 PM »
So,    should customers still expect to have problems with their guide rails not mating up properly ? 

They received the info;  but you can't tell us if they did anything or even read the memo.   [doh]

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about taking the reservation, but not holding the reservation.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:42 PM by antss »

Offline TylerC

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Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2017, 09:58 PM »
Keep in mind that North American guide rails are now being manufactured (including extrusion) in a different place than previous rails.

And while I appreciate any good Seinfeld reference, I don't know that it applies. I don't think it would be wise for a company to publicly post about the findings of every quality assurance complaint and if/what actions are being taken.

Serenity now! (Insanity later.)

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 550
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2017, 09:34 AM »
I don't think it would be wise for a company to publicly post about the findings of every quality assurance complaint and if/what actions are being taken.
Depends on if they feel like they need to hide reality from their customers.

Certainly the idea to be open about what goes/went wront induces fear about what will happen when we say x could get problem y, at times this can overshadow the long-term outcome of customers experiencing they said x could suffer from y, mine did but they fixed it free, great, especially compared to others who let me suffer from their mistakes as now that they have my money they don't care anymore.

A company that acknowledges shortcomings of the stuff they sell and demonstrate that they're not happy about them by both removing the issue from new products created and fixing the issues with the ones they already in existance (so past customers who brought them to where they are now are not left alone with the defects) gets my loyalty - one that hides away from what went wrong deserves neither that nor my money.

Compare Volkswagen with Toyota:
The first knew that some stuff will break under certain conditions (Polo motors freeze to death in winter in city use, certain gearboxes broke relieably every some ~40Kkm) but kept production running unchanged and left the already existing customers to pickup the fallout.
The latter learned that some stuff could possibly break (Prius water pumps had a small chance of starting to leak, as one example) and not only instantly changed production but replaced all pumps in existing vehicles at the next service for free.

Guess what car I drive now, after 20 years of looking at a certain logo on the wheel. We're all humans, we all make mistakes, in my view the important part is how we deal with them. In my over 30 years of private enterprise an open, no-bullshit approach to problems with the stuff I supply results in a positive outcome (in all of customer satisfaction, my and their bottom-line), so I stick to it and honor others that do too.

YMMV.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 09:46 AM by Gregor »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3614
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2017, 10:42 AM »

A company that acknowledges shortcomings of the stuff they sell and demonstrate that they're not happy about them by both removing the issue from new products created and fixing the issues with the ones they already in existance (so past customers who brought them to where they are now are not left alone with the defects) gets my loyalty...


This is the very basis of good customer satisfaction. Over the years I've had to create many "Corrective Action" reports when products or processes went awry. When you're dealing with customers such as IBM, Intel, and Texas Instrument among many others, those customers DEMAND a Corrective Action report. More importantly, the CA report has to be TIMELY, not something that's generated 6-9 months down the road.

The report identifies the problem/issues, it offers a short-term solution (maybe 100% inspection) and a long-term solution (maybe new tooling, tighter tolerances, or a different supplier), while also outlining what happens to the product in inventory and the product in the field. All of these items get tied back into an Engineering Change Order.

I see no reason why Festool shouldn't produce and release such a report and if the issue is wide spread, I think an asterisk with a short statement should be included in the Festool catalog in the Guide Rail section to prevent wide spread customer frustration.

It's not that difficult, you just have to be willing to "suck it up"

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 663
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2017, 02:36 PM »
"A company that acknowledges shortcomings of the stuff they sell and demonstrate that they're not happy about them by both removing the issue from new products created and fixing the issues with the ones they already in existence (so past customers who brought them to where they are now are not left alone with the defects) gets my loyalty..."

I had a similar issue with my Nova DVR-XP lathe. The display membrane had delaminated and made it difficult to read. When I contacted Teknatool about a replacement display and how much it would cost they informed me they would replace it for free. Took a while since the part came from overseas but in about 4 weeks I had a new display panel in my mailbox. A quick plug and play and I was back in business and the display was good as new. Don't know how long their warranty is and they never even asked me when I bought it but I told them it was at least 6 years ago. No sweat you'll get a new display they told me and they keep me informed of the progress of the order and when it arrived at the office here in the States they let me know when they dropped it in the mail. Return the old display? Nope, don't want it returned, hang on to it or toss it out.

That kind of service LONG after the sale has now made my drill press decision much easier. I'll be looking to pick up the Nova Voyager drill press later this year.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 492
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2017, 02:54 PM »

I see no reason why Festool shouldn't produce and release such a report and if the issue is wide spread, I think an asterisk with a short statement should be included in the Festool catalog in the Guide Rail section to prevent wide spread customer frustration.

It's not that difficult, you just have to be willing to "suck it up"

I can see Corrective Action reports being made available for vendor to vendor, but never the customer. For a consumer to request this is completely ridiculous. Many people on FOG sharpshoot everything Festool does, so they don't need anything else to complain about. Sometimes when I look at the FOG to see the recent postings I am floored by those who want to know the inner workings of Festool. They have words for this when two people are involved: stalking and obsessed. No consumer needs to or has a right to know the inner workings of Festool. They make good products that work well and generally outperform other tool lines. Rarely there are small issues with some of their products, which is to be expected.

Offline LooseSox

  • Posts: 89
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2017, 04:59 PM »

I see no reason why Festool shouldn't produce and release such a report and if the issue is wide spread, I think an asterisk with a short statement should be included in the Festool catalog in the Guide Rail section to prevent wide spread customer frustration.

It's not that difficult, you just have to be willing to "suck it up"

I can see Corrective Action reports being made available for vendor to vendor, but never the customer. For a consumer to request this is completely ridiculous. Many people on FOG sharpshoot everything Festool does, so they don't need anything else to complain about. Sometimes when I look at the FOG to see the recent postings I am floored by those who want to know the inner workings of Festool. They have words for this when two people are involved: stalking and obsessed. No consumer needs to or has a right to know the inner workings of Festool. They make good products that work well and generally outperform other tool lines. Rarely there are small issues with some of their products, which is to be expected.

Spot on. For a CA report to be made publicly available to the end user? You guys need to put the drugs away.

Yes, there may be issues with a product that appear more often than others (rails or kapex), but some of the posts I read basically saying festool should publicly apologise and redesign the product then replace with a new one for everyone that has purchased previously is straight up delusional.

Yes, festool make some awesome products. Yes, occasionally they fail. If you don't like the way they handle issues, stop buying their gear.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3614
Re: Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2017, 11:22 PM »
Well like it or not guys...the semiconductor industry does indeed conduct Corrective Action investigations in exactly the manner in which I discussed. That's real...been there, done that, wrote the report and I still had to face the customer (executioner) mano a mano. It's not that big of a deal, you're not turning state's evidence for crying out loud...you're only admitting that a manufacturing/processing problem has been identified and it may be deleterious to the customer's manufacturing process. Ya, humble pie will certainly be the foodstuff of the day but that goes away once you've ameliorated the customer's concerns. Once you've admitted there is a problem, and once you've outlined the corrective action you've taken it becomes a lot easier...like I said, when you're wrong... just suck it up...it's not so difficult.     [cool] [cool] [cool]
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:40 PM by Cheese »