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FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Ask Festool => Topic started by: icecactus on May 24, 2016, 02:07 AM

Title: MFS
Post by: icecactus on May 24, 2016, 02:07 AM
Just curious but what was the reasoning behind discontinuing the MFS in north america?


Title: Re: MFS
Post by: bobfog on May 24, 2016, 02:26 AM
I'm sure someone from Festool or a dealer will reply with the corporate line about product life cycles, range refresh, etc.

But in short I'd propose it's grossly over priced for what it is and didn't sell in enough quantity for them to maintain it in their product line. As with any big business they will have to maximise profitability and don't have an unlimited cash flow, therefore they will drop products that have a slow rate of sale and divert budget to importing/stocking more popular lines from Germany.

The problem is these, driven by accountants, product range decisions are shrewd financially on paper, but do erode customer advocacy because customers feel that the business is putting too much emphasis on the greed of profit than offering customers the broadest product range possible.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: TylerC on May 24, 2016, 08:38 AM
The main reasons why the MFS was discontinued was that didn't sell well. While some people liked it, there was very little interest in it overall.

In response to @bobfog: Sometimes (and I honestly don't know if this applies to the MFS) it's not about "greed of profit" as much as it's about minimizing losses. Yes, we'd love to sell "the broadest product range possible", but we aren't going to keep manufacturing something if we're losing money on it.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: bobfog on May 24, 2016, 08:57 AM
There were two main reasons why the MFS was discontinued:

1. It didn't sell well. While some people liked it, there was very little interest in it overall.
2.  The MFK Trim Router is really a better solution for similar work. Therefore, we'd rather push people in that direction.

In response to @bobfog: Sometimes (and I honestly don't know if this applies to the MFS) it's not about "greed of profit" as much as it's about minimizing losses. Yes, we'd love to sell "the broadest product range possible", but we aren't going to keep manufacturing something if we're losing money on it.
[/b]

Yeah I appreciate that. That's why I mentioned/prefaced that comment by saying even big businesses or even the manufacturers themselves don't have unlimited budgets to keep minimum stock quantities to supply potential demand of an entire region, if a particular line is a slow seller. I wasn't saying it was a bad decision just playing devil's advocate about the repercussions of the decision from the consumers perspective.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Roseland on May 24, 2016, 11:27 AM
I think it's a huge shame they're dropping the MFS in the USA.  I guess they might then drop it in Europe too, because the total sales will be even smaller.

Of all the Festool products I've bought it's the one that has surprised me the most.  I find I end up using it on just about every project I do.

It's the completeness of Festool's range that makes it attractive.

Andrew
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: ScotF on May 24, 2016, 12:00 PM
I think it's a huge shame they're dropping the MFS in the USA.  I guess they might then drop it in Europe too, because the total sales will be even smaller.

Of all the Festool products I've bought it's the one that has surprised me the most.  I find I end up using it on just about every project I do.

It's the completeness of Festool's range that makes it attractive.

Andrew

I could not agree more. I get why they are doing it, but it is a shame. I now, luckily, have a pretty complete set-up and keep finding more uses for it.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Holmz on May 24, 2016, 12:54 PM
I think it's a huge shame they're dropping the MFS in the USA.  I guess they might then drop it in Europe too, because the total sales will be even smaller.

Of all the Festool products I've bought it's the one that has surprised me the most.  I find I end up using it on just about every project I do.

It's the completeness of Festool's range that makes it attractive.

Andrew

Completeness?
It may seem complete, but when they drop the items, then it is less complete.
So it seems like it is less attractive?
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Gerald_D on May 24, 2016, 02:05 PM
For those of you who have been using the MFS for a while, what are some examples of how you have used the MFS system?  I had purchased the MFS 700 set last week for cutting circular table tops, and I realize it will work for hinge mortises- just wondering what else.  Main reason I ask is to see if I should be purchasing extensions before they are no longer available.

I believe Jerry Work had a paper he created so I'm going to look for that as well.

Regards,
Gerald
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: rvieceli on May 24, 2016, 02:09 PM
@Gerald_D  Brice Burrell did a users guide that is available here:

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/mfs-users-guide-brice-burrell.pdf

Here's the one by Jerry Work:

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/962087/13205584/1310688549607/Advanced+Cutting+and+Routing+Techniques+Using+the+Festool+MFS+Fence+System+reduced.pdf?token=hnw6z1FpXkuvxBJ9euR8Xg5kqYo%3D

Title: Re: MFS
Post by: ScotF on May 25, 2016, 12:23 AM
Jerry's and Brice's guides are very helpful. I use the profiles as straight edges, an accurate square and I use them all the time for guiding my jigsaw. Of course the normal routing operations. While I have not done this technique yet, I want to use it to guide a router for surfacing wider boards than my jointer. I think erock  did this and there is another thread of someone else who did it. Very accurate and easy set-up. The smaller size is perfect for mortises. I think the stops are handy with four if you need to reference off two sides of a work piece. Oh, and don't forget inlay applications (covered in the user guides).
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Roseland on May 25, 2016, 01:58 PM
It would be quicker to list the things I don't use it for!  But typical examples are cutting pockets for the treads of stairs, cutouts for power sockets, cutouts for french cleats and sometimes circles; the list goes on.

I had made (by Shapeways) some corner fillets that enable me, using an 8mm cutter and 24mm and 40mm guide bushes, rout out an aperture and an exactly matching insert.  I used that, for example, to repair a door that had to be repaired after the lock jammed and had to be cut out.

Andrew
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: pettyconstruction on May 25, 2016, 11:06 PM
Crap
Now I think I NEED one of those.

It's like how a girlfriend gets real attractive when you realize she is leaving you.
Lol.
Charlie
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: greg mann on May 26, 2016, 08:40 AM
Crap
Now I think I NEED one of those.

It's like how a girlfriend gets real attractive when you realize she is leaving you.
Lol.
Charlie

Hmmm, can't relate. I never had one leave me. [poke]
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Peter Halle on May 26, 2016, 09:09 AM
Crap
Now I think I NEED one of those.

It's like how a girlfriend gets real attractive when you realize she is leaving you.
Lol.
Charlie

Hmmm, can't relate. I never had one leave me. [poke]

ROFL!!!!!
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: builderbob on May 26, 2016, 09:38 AM
I just used my MFS 700 to makes this ring lastnight. I have to see if I can find the 200 & 2000 extensions...anybody know who has stock?

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160526/62ee93230afc13d4ad3ed2a15df08804.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160526/d56406faa9f8bbd18a2bfb916cea2b05.jpg)
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: rvieceli on May 26, 2016, 09:56 AM
@builderbob looks like Bob Marino still has the extensions:

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/mfs-extension-profiles/p/492722/

Out of the kits though.

Ron
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: SRSemenza on May 26, 2016, 10:10 AM
You are too late Bob, that was invented in 1958!  [wink]

OK, but whatcha building?

Seth
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: builderbob on May 26, 2016, 10:18 AM
You are too late Bob, that was invented in 1958!  [wink]

OK, but whatcha building?

Seth

It's an outer ring for a ceiling medallion. The parts that came with the "kit" we're in 4 pieces and the joining of the crap seams we're going to spell disaster down the road so I made a one piece ring.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: JimH2 on May 26, 2016, 11:51 AM
I don't think Bob has any stock so to speak. Everything is shipped directly from Festool USA.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: builderbob on May 26, 2016, 11:53 AM
I don't think Bob has any stock so to speak. Everything is shipped directly from Festool USA.


Well that sucks. Is there a way to find out if Festool has any stock of these things Tyler?
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: rvieceli on May 26, 2016, 12:00 PM
Bob's website is usually pretty good on inventory.

Call him (973) 896-4388
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Peter Halle on May 26, 2016, 12:33 PM
Bob does have inventory.  He chooses to have a company handle his order fulfillment for him.

Peter
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: builderbob on May 26, 2016, 12:37 PM
Bob does have inventory.  He chooses to have a company handle his order fulfillment for him.

Peter

Thanks guys!  I did drop him a line...here's to hoping!
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: rvieceli on May 26, 2016, 12:50 PM
Bob if you want them just order them now.  [cool]

If they aren't in stock you'll find out soon enough. If they are available some one else may grab them. I can't imagine that there is a significant number that even on online dealer would keep in stock.

Ron
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: builderbob on May 26, 2016, 01:02 PM
Bob if you want them just order them now.  [cool]

If they aren't in stock you'll find out soon enough. If they are available some one else may grab them. I can't imagine that there is a significant number that even on online dealer would keep in stock.

Ron

Done!  Good call Ron! 
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Staniam on May 26, 2016, 01:09 PM


The problem is these, driven by accountants, product range decisions are shrewd financially on paper, but do erode customer advocacy because customers feel that the business is putting too much emphasis on the greed of profit than offering customers the broadest product range possible.

Green of profit. It is, you know, the goal for a company to make money. Do you work for free? Didn't think so, so why should employees with Festool work for free? Profit is the goal of everyone in every job. The goal is to make money.

And you just said there isn't an endless cash flow so they ditch products that don't sell. Which is the right thing to do in a business. Yet then you said theyre greedy instead of offering the broadest range of products possible.

I don't get it.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Roseland on May 26, 2016, 01:20 PM
I think it can be short sighted to focus on the profit of a particular component when it's part of a system.

Take for instance the edging plate that has just been discontinued.  OK, perhaps they didn't sell many.  But I have 5 routers and I bought my OF1010 just because it had the capability to do edging.  I'm only a hobbyist and couldn't justify a dedicated edging router such as the MFK700.

So had the edging plate not been available, they would have lost the sale of my OF1010 and the accessories I've bought for it (guide bushes etc), all of which I'm sure make a great margin.

Festool have started on a slippery slope, and I hope they think again before continuing this strategy.

Andrew
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: TylerC on May 26, 2016, 03:11 PM
I completely get that it sucks when a product that you like gets discontinued. I'd just ask that you give us the benefit of the doubt that our decisions aren't quick or careless on this kind of thing.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: bobfog on May 26, 2016, 03:36 PM
I completely get that it sucks when a product that you like gets discontinued. I'd just ask that you give us the benefit of the doubt that our decisions aren't quick or careless on this kind of thing.

Why not lower the price to make it more popular and sell in greater volume, making less money per item, but selling more resulting in the same net profit? In the UK the MFS 700 is £250, for a few bits of extruded aluminium, some fixing and a some steel. It's obscene!

It does seem like an elitist attitude that if we can't sell it at an exorbitant rate we're not interested in selling it at all.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Gerald_D on May 26, 2016, 04:51 PM
I completely get that it sucks when a product that you like gets discontinued. I'd just ask that you give us the benefit of the doubt that our decisions aren't quick or careless on this kind of thing.

I'm sorry to see this leave the Festool lineup- especially since I've had it on my wish list for quite some time (always some other higher priority) and now I'm scrambling to get the pieces I think I'll need in the future before they are no longer available.  But I totally understand the decision since my full-time gig is inventory and warehousing, and I realize there is an inventory carrying cost for companies.  I'm hoping some of you are correct that these are somewhat easy for a machine shop to make and, as long as there is no patent infringement issues, that someone will offer an equal, compatible, and economic alternative in the future. 

Regards,
Gerald
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: TylerC on May 26, 2016, 05:13 PM
The OP's question has been answered, so it's time to call it a day.

A few notes:
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Peter Halle on May 26, 2016, 08:01 PM
@TylerC, @Christian Oltzscher , Maybe you can run this idea up the international flagpole,

Obviously economics come into play with the accessories, and there might be areas around the world where it doesn't make sense to stock such accessories.

But if the accessories are still available say for example in Europe, perhaps Festool would be doing the brand a service by allowing dealers in those areas to sell and ship those discontinued-in-other-areas-accessories to areas where the accessories are not available without violating any sort of dealer agreements.  Absolutely no cost to Festool, promotes the system approach, and maintain the goodwill of the brand.

Just a thought.

Peter
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: TylerC on May 26, 2016, 08:09 PM
@TylerC, @Christian Oltzscher , Maybe you can run this idea up the international flagpole,

Obviously economics come into play with the accessories, and there might be areas around the world where it doesn't make sense to stock such accessories.

But if the accessories are still available say for example in Europe, perhaps Festool would be doing the brand a service by allowing dealers in those areas to sell and ship those discontinued-in-other-areas-accessories to areas where the accessories are not available without violating any sort of dealer agreements.  Absolutely no cost to Festool, promotes the system approach, and maintain the goodwill of the brand.

Just a thought.

Peter

Although this is outside of my area of influence, I'll definitely make sure that the right people see this thread. We're always open to ways to improve things for Festool users.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: promark747 on May 26, 2016, 10:09 PM
For what it's worth, I placed an order for the MFS 1000mm profiles with the same UK company that Scorpion purchased his long MFT extrusions from (as he was happy with their service).  Even with shipping, the total cost of about $233 USD was less than the current retail price ($323) for the profiles if I had purchased here (and I don't know that you can even find them anymore...I tried).  It may take me a few weeks to get them, but that's fine.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: promark747 on June 22, 2016, 06:18 PM
Received my MFS 1000 profiles today and everything seems to be in perfect shape.  I highly recommend Engineering Agencies for their service.  And I saved almost $100 vs the cost in the US (prior to being discontinued).

http://www.engineeringagencies.co.uk/festool-492725-extension-profile-mfs-vp-1000
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: PreferrablyWood on July 10, 2016, 02:02 PM
I'm waiting on my order of 2x MFS 400 sets and 1x 1000 + 1x700 extensions. I'm Likely going to get additional 700 + 1000 extensions when the funds allow. I fully understand that less popular products sometimes get phased out. But believe also that part of what keeps myself and others returning to festool is the system approach which saves time and makes me more effective..

As a single one time purchase The MFS might seem expensive but seen in relation to the complete work set I believe its still in tune economically with the overall system cost and benefits equation
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: aterren on October 05, 2016, 08:02 PM
Now that the MFS is unavailable, are there any comparable products by aftermarket providers?
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: teocaf on October 15, 2016, 02:16 PM
Now that the MFS is unavailable, are there any comparable products by aftermarket providers?

@aterren
welcome to the FOG.  I'm surprised no one's jumped in to give you an answer yet--perhaps the sander super sale has sucked all the oxygen out of the forum's other topics.
 
The Trend Varijig frame system looks like a pretty decent quality/cost substitute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U2TnfczC7c


There's also a cool homemade version that the guy on the Toolify channel on youtube did a video on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InipG5bb7B4
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: mike_aa on October 15, 2016, 06:36 PM
@aterren

@teocaf

I don't have any experience with it, but here's a stair template (http://virutex.com/templateforstairs-pfp.aspx) that looks like it is made up with the same rails as the MFS uses.

Mike A.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: iamnothim on July 17, 2017, 01:56 PM
This is a huge problem for me.  I use my MFS400 a lot and now I want the 700mm extrusions.  I never imagined it would be discontinued.  Festool: There are people that buy in to a "system" product concept. 

My brother-in-law is a international airline pilot.  He frequently flies to DE and might be able to pick it up.   Are the still available there?  If so, can anyone provide the part number for the 700mm rails?

Then I have to find a dealer near his airport. Deuseldorf I think. 
Thanks
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: iamnothim on July 17, 2017, 01:58 PM
Does anyone have experience with the Trend "Varijig"?
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: justaguy on July 17, 2017, 02:38 PM
I do. PM me if you have questions
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: JimH2 on July 17, 2017, 02:41 PM
This is a huge problem for me.  I use my MFS400 a lot and now I want the 700mm extrusions.  I never imagined it would be discontinued.  Festool: There are people that buy in to a "system" product concept. 

My brother is a international airline pilot.  He frequently flies to DE and might be able to pick it up.   Are the still available there?  If so, can anyone provide the part number for the 700mm rails?

Then I have to find a dealer near his airport. Deuseldorf I think. 
Thanks

If a product does not sell well then you typically delete it or put it on clearance. They probably were not selling any of them until they let it be known they were not going to carry them anymore.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: iamnothim on July 17, 2017, 02:57 PM


If a product does not sell well then you typically delete it or put it on clearance. They probably were not selling any of them until they let it be known they were not going to carry them anymore.

I get it
I'm looking for solutions
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: HarveyWildes on July 17, 2017, 04:02 PM
Does anyone have experience with the Trend "Varijig"?

The Virutex product comes in the same sizes and visually looks identical to the Festool jigs.  Earlier this spring I emailed the Virutex US office to see if I could order them in the US.  They said yes and sent me prices, but I never pulled the trigger.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: Svar on July 17, 2017, 04:07 PM
Does anyone have experience with the Trend "Varijig"?

The Virutex product comes in the same sizes and visually looks identical to the Festool jigs.  Earlier this spring I emailed the Virutex US office to see if I could order them in the US.  They said yes and sent me prices, but I never pulled the trigger.
Virutex and Trend "Varijig" are different products.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: HarveyWildes on July 17, 2017, 04:32 PM
Does anyone have experience with the Trend "Varijig"?

The Virutex product comes in the same sizes and visually looks identical to the Festool jigs.  Earlier this spring I emailed the Virutex US office to see if I could order them in the US.  They said yes and sent me prices, but I never pulled the trigger.
Virutex and Trend "Varijig" are different products.
Yep - The Trend Varijig does not look visually identical to the Festool jigs.  I was just trying to indicate that there was another US alternative closer to Festool than the Trend product.  I'm just not sure if Virutex is still selling it, since it seems to have disappeared from their web site also.
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: GarryMartin on July 17, 2017, 04:39 PM
If so, can anyone provide the part number for the 700mm rails?

@iamnothim

492610 - MFS 400
492611 - MFS 700
492722 - Extension profile MFS-VP 200 (2 x profile 200mm)
492723 - Extension profile MFS-VP 400 (2 x profile 400mm)
492724 - Extension profile MFS-VP 700 (2 x profile 700mm)
492725 - Extension profile MFS-VP 1000 (2 x profile 1000mm)
492726 - Extension profile MFS-VP 2000 (2 x profile 2000mm)
Title: Re: MFS
Post by: iamnothim on July 17, 2017, 04:49 PM
THANKS !!