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Author Topic: MFT update  (Read 4020 times)

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Offline James Carriere

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MFT update
« on: June 01, 2018, 05:51 PM »
Hello,

I wanted to inquire if there were any rough timelines for a redesigned MFT table release.  I am aware of the design competition that closed quite some time ago and was curious to where things stand with what I hope is a future release which incorporates some much needed new features i.e. a removable carrying handle and possibly some attached wheels for improved mobility, etc?

Thank you,
James

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 06:09 PM »
design competition?

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2018, 06:34 PM »
Hi Peter,

My best guess, James is talking about this: https://www.behance.net/gallery/18071433/Festool-Workbench

Maybe someone can enlighten us on "The Workbench Revolution Competition"?  [eek]

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4591
Re: MFT update
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2018, 06:45 PM »
SWEET

Now that’s a MFT that I’d spend my money on. Rather than the rickety original version.

Offline James Carriere

  • Posts: 25
Re: MFT update
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2018, 07:12 PM »
Hi Peter and Oliver,

Yes it is in reference to those images on Behance where I stumbled upon some preliminary design ideas while doing other MFT research. I happened to run into my local Festool rep this week who confirmed to me that the open design competition had happened and had closed quite some time ago.  He politely did not want to speculate anymore on the subject.  Adding that to the knowledge that the current MFT is from 2008 and there are numerous suggestions and mods on FOG it seems logical that Festool might have an interest in a new update.  I initially hesitated asking on the forum for not wanting to start a whole "thing" but I incorrectly concluded that the Ask Festool section might be private and not on the open forum.  My apologies if this sparks a giant discussion that is unwanted.

Offline James Carriere

  • Posts: 25
Re: MFT update
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2018, 07:14 PM »
SWEET

Now that’s a MFT that I’d spend my money on. Rather than the rickety original version.

Good timing Cheese!

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 07:25 PM »
I will await any news from Festool about an enhancement or redesign.  I will not be holding my breath during that interim.

The MFT/3 was designed as a transportable multifunction table.  For that purpose mine has served me well.  As to the sexy design posted, I only offer my personal opinion - I would like to see how those diagonal braces work in real life for those who want to plane and push on their tables versus the originals.

Not one table / bench / work surface  / sawhorse / trestle is right for everyone.

Hope you get a chance to use yours today or tomorrow!

Peter

Offline James Carriere

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2018, 07:40 PM »
I will await any news from Festool about an enhancement or redesign.  I will not be holding my breath during that interim.

The MFT/3 was designed as a transportable multifunction table.  For that purpose mine has served me well.  As to the sexy design posted, I only offer my personal opinion - I would like to see how those diagonal braces work in real life for those who want to plane and push on their tables versus the originals.

Not one table / bench / work surface  / sawhorse / trestle is right for everyone.

Hope you get a chance to use yours today or tomorrow!

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you for the follow-up.  I agree with you that the sexy design is not necessarily functionally perfect and while I love my Festool products and take good care of them they are in fact tools as opposed to family members.  Well, my Domino XL is akin to a close cousin but that's another topic for another day.    It was not that specific design that I was hopeful for and I will not hold my breath for a new MFT anytime soon but wish to forward to the design team at Festool my desire to please consider a removable handle, transport wheels, and an incorporated height adjustment in the future if at all possible.  You are correct that not one table is correct for everyone.  It's just some of us are rather tall (height adjustment), work in a city with a tremendous amount of stairs (removable handle), and are not getting any younger (wheels).

Have a great weekend!
James

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2018, 08:02 PM »

Good timing Cheese!


Hey James interesting enough, that post that Oliver pointed out was 4 years  ago.  [eek]

Offline Festool USA

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2018, 08:48 PM »
Thanks for your question, @James Carriere. We have not announced any planned updates to the MFT. I would not anticipate any significant updates to it in the next year or so.

(Tyler)

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2018, 09:42 PM »
Thanks for your question, @James Carriere. We have not announced any planned updates to the MFT. I would not anticipate any significant updates to it in the next year or so.

However in the next 2 years or so... [popcorn]

Offline James Carriere

  • Posts: 25
Re: MFT update
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2018, 09:50 PM »
Thanks for your question, @James Carriere. We have not announced any planned updates to the MFT. I would not anticipate any significant updates to it in the next year or so.

However in the next 2 years or so... [popcorn]

Hahahahahah!

Offline Svar

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2018, 10:09 PM »
The underframe (link in post #2) looks redundant. Legs should be attached/integrated directly to corner brackets and t-profiles.
Perhaps it was an attempt to modify existing MFT.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 10:15 PM by Svar »

Online cpw

  • Posts: 64
Re: MFT update
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2018, 10:55 PM »
The split top in the linked page seems like it would defeat the purpose of having the square pattern of dog holes, because you'll never know that they were put back together right.  The wheels and handle look like nice additions.

Offline jobsworth

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2018, 11:40 PM »
I like the wood top. Though I dontknow how practicle it would to make and use as a cutting table as the MFT was designed to e

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2018, 02:06 PM »
The split top in the linked page seems like it would defeat the purpose of having the square pattern of dog holes, because you'll never know that they were put back together right.

I had an interesting discussion a couple of days ago with a person that owns 2 MFT’s. He brought the tops to work and ran them through their vision system. He was stunned to find that both the location of the holes and the hole diameters were all over the board. His statement was “ I’d never use the stock Festool MFT top with dogs for critical alignment, I use it for work holding purposes only”.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2018, 05:59 PM »
The “all over the place” comment does not match my experience with my 2 MFTs. I have a Woodpecker framing square that’s about 16” by 26” and is extremely square. I can butt it up against Qwas dogs and there is no rocking or any other indication of hole placement errors and the dogs fit snugly in every hole I’ve tried. The MFT to MFT alignment isn’t all that good, but it’s ok for my usage.
Birdhunter

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2018, 09:21 PM »
The “all over the place” comment does not match my experience with my 2 MFTs.
FWIW...this observation is not mine, but that of a tool designer for a large company that produces woodworking tools. The interesting part is that he is an avid Festool user and when he received the results from the previous MFT tops from the vision system he was stunned. Consequently he figured the poor results were because of his prior usage/abuse of the MFT. So he then purchased a new replacement top from Festool and subjected that to the vision system. That top was also “all over the place”. I asked what the actual numerical results were but he demurred because he didn’t want to trash another manufacturer. I get that...

« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:47 PM by Cheese »

Offline Svar

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2018, 11:46 PM »
He brought the tops to work and ran them through their vision system.
There is no need to go into such length. Just stick bench dogs in pairs of holes and measure the distances with caliper, diagonals too. Couple dozen measurements will give you a good idea and whether the error is systematic. I've done this for my home made top.

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2018, 12:34 AM »
There is no need to go into such length. Just stick bench dogs in pairs of holes and measure the distances with caliper, diagonals too. Couple dozen measurements will give you a good idea and whether the error is systematic. I've done this for my home made top.

Well of course not...but then it’s also not necessary to spend $600 for a simple plunge router.  Porter Cable cornered that market 30 years ago...at a fair market cost of less than $200.  [eek]  Consequently, this isn’t just a forum for the old wood working fools, but hopefully a forum for the younger generation and just maybe...just maybe, the mistakes the old farts made in the past will not be repeated by the younger enthusiasts.

Accurate information is important to disseminate and while it’s sometimes easy to assume that anything manufactured on a piece of CNC equipment is “perfect” it’s also mandatory in this age of instant gratification to understand what perfection in those terms represents. Thus my post...

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2018, 05:27 AM »
I was not in any way questioning the post re the vision system findings. I was observing that my two MFTs seem to exhibit as accurate a hole placement as I have the ability to measure.

I would guess (hope) that a tool designer has a desire to see extremely tight tolerances and be very critical of tolerances a more casual user would find acceptable.

I wish the MFTs were made of a more stable material than MDF, but they are made as expendable so the cost can’t be too high.
Birdhunter

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2018, 09:17 AM »

I would guess (hope) that a tool designer has a desire to see extremely tight tolerances and be very critical of tolerances a more casual user would find acceptable.

I wish the MFTs were made of a more stable material than MDF, but they are made as expendable so the cost can’t be too high.

He was tasked with coming up with a method for the average Joe to duplicate the MFT top using general tools. Thus, he needed to have a baseline to compare his methodology/results to.   

I'm making a top now out of 18mm Baltic birch. We'll see how that works out.  [big grin]   The last top I made was from 1 1/2" thick maple. After 4 years of use, the dogs are still a snug fit, no looseness/sloppiness at all.

Offline James Carriere

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2018, 10:38 AM »

I would guess (hope) that a tool designer has a desire to see extremely tight tolerances and be very critical of tolerances a more casual user would find acceptable.

I wish the MFTs were made of a more stable material than MDF, but they are made as expendable so the cost can’t be too high.

He was tasked with coming up with a method for the average Joe to duplicate the MFT top using general tools. Thus, he needed to have a baseline to compare his methodology/results to.   

I'm making a top now out of 18mm Baltic birch. We'll see how that works out.  [big grin]   The last top I made was from 1 1/2" thick maple. After 4 years of use, the dogs are still a snug fit, no looseness/sloppiness at all.


Please let me know what you think after it's built and used for a bit.  I've been thinking about an 18mil BB top as well.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2018, 01:34 PM »
I made a small (12” by 18”) MFT using the Woodpecker MFT kit. I used 3/4” Baltic birch. Had some tear out around the holes. Minimal issue.
Birdhunter

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2018, 07:27 AM »
I made a small (12” by 18”) MFT using the Woodpecker MFT kit. I used 3/4” Baltic birch. Had some tear out around the holes. Minimal issue.

Hey @Birdhunter , I'm curious how snug the dogs fit in the holes of your mini MFT? Also what dogs are you using?

I started to make an MFT with the Woodpeckers jig and I'm getting almost .015" (1/64") of slop between the dogs and the holes.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2018, 08:07 AM »
My experience with the Woodpecker jig isn’t too positive. I had to modify my router (Festool 1400) base plate to accept the supplied bushing. When I routed the holes using the supplied router bit, the holes were too small. I used a 20mm Forstner bit to drill out the holes.

I had to slightly enlarge the opening in my 1400 base plate. The threads on the supplied bushing interfered with the opening. I put the base plate on my lathe and turned off just a tiny amount of material. The bushing is now a perfect fit.

I have no idea why theholes were too small.

All other aspect of the Woodpecker jig worked fine.

There are two bushingsin the kit. One is for 3/4” holes and one is for 20mm holes. Using the wrong bushing would create a lot of slop.

I use Qwas dogs and Parf dogs.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 08:09 AM by Birdhunter »
Birdhunter

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2018, 08:48 AM »
Well that's interesting...I also had to chuck the brass bushing in my lathe to remove about .004"/side so that it would fit in the 1400.

I ordered just the metric kit. The holes are coming out to be 2.20mm in diameter while my dogs all measure 19.90mm.

I'm waiting for the Festool 20mm boring bit to arrive. I'm going to try that approach.  [sad]

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2018, 11:54 AM »
My kit came with the router bit. What size bit did you use to route out the oversized holes?

I didn’t modify the bushing, only the base plate. When I first encountered the bushing fit issue, I called Woodpecker. They said Festool had a base plate just for the Woodpecker bushing so I ordered it. The bushing didn’t fit the new base plate. I called Woodpecker again to verify the part number and was told that some of the special order base plates fit the bushing and some do not. That’s when I figured out a way to chuck the base plate in my lathe and enlarge the hole.

I’ve got a shop full of Woodpecker tools that are outstanding. This experience with the boring jig is highly unusual.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 12:00 PM by Birdhunter »
Birdhunter

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2018, 01:13 PM »
1. My kit came with the router bit. What size bit did you use to route out the oversized holes?

2. I didn’t modify the bushing, only the base plate. When I first encountered the bushing fit issue, I called Woodpecker. They said Festool had a base plate just for the Woodpecker bushing so I ordered it. The bushing didn’t fit the new base plate. I called Woodpecker again to verify the part number and was told that some of the special order base plates fit the bushing and some do not. That’s when I figured out a way to chuck the base plate in my lathe and enlarge the hole.

3. I’ve got a shop full of Woodpecker tools that are outstanding. This experience with the boring jig is highly unusual.

1. I used a Whiteside spiral upcut 1/2" diameter bit. RU515, the same one Woodpecker was selling with the kits.

https://www.woodpeck.com/hole-boring-jig.html

2. I already had a set of Porter Cable interchangeable router bushings and after measuring them and the 1400 plate, I determined that the Woodpeckers brass bushing was out of whack, thus I modified the Woodpecker item.

3. I also have a ton of Woodpecker stuff and am very happy with the stuff. This jig is a disappointment.

I also called Woodpeckers and talked to them about the hole diameters I was getting. They confirmed that their own testing/trials produced the same size diameter holes...2.15-2.20mm.

Consequently, I fabricated an aluminum bushing that will fit over the Woodpecker brass bushing and at the same time it will also be snug in the Woodpeckers jig. I will then use a Festool 20mm router boring bit to drill the holes for the MFT. We'll see...

« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 01:19 PM by Cheese »

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: MFT update
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2018, 05:19 PM »
I sent Woodpecker an email detailing the issues I've had with the jig/bushing and requested a refund. I'm especially glad I did so if the "perfect" jig producers oversized
Birdhunter