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Author Topic: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac  (Read 60387 times)

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Offline Paul G

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« on: May 09, 2013, 06:16 PM »
I'm curious to know if there are any concerns warranty-wise using my new TS55REQ with my shop vac/Oneida dust sucker? Is there any kind of risk to the tools doing this with any Festool tools? I think of static mainly but curious if there are other issues I'm unaware of. This is Festool #1 for me with a Kapex likely added soon. Thanks for any feedback/guidance.
+1

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Offline ccarrolladams

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 06:29 PM »
Contact Festool USA about the warranty issues using any kind of third party between a vac and the Festool. cyclones such as the Dust Deputy, can create huge amounts of static electricity which can destroy the circuit boards within the tool.

Offline ccarrolladams

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 01:21 AM »
Peter, the issue is using any third-party device between a Festool dust extractor and a Festool.

Excessive static electricity generated by the third-party device can and have destroyed circuit boards in the tool and in the Festool dust extractor.

Shane Holland has stated several times on FOG that in cases of static damage resulting from use of the third-party devices the usual warranty might be void.

That is why I wrote the post I wrote as a warning to Festool owners. Of course the policies of Festool UL could well be different. My post only applies to NA Festool owners.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 02:19 AM »
Has anyone on the FOG experienced the destruction of their extractor due to the use of a Dust Deputy?

Yes, there were a couple of threads about it just a week or two ago.

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 10:46 AM »

Has anyone on the FOG experienced the destruction of their extractor due to the use of a Dust Deputy?


Yes me.  As a matter of fact I just spent $150.00 US for a new controller board for my CT22.  I am positive the cause was the UDD.

I have it grounded better now and seems to be OK.
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Offline Festool USA

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 10:47 AM »
Per our warranty...

Quote
Festool
does not condone nor support the use of any non-Festool engineered, designed, and manufactured accessories or consumables with Festool products. Use of any non-Festool products may affect performance or void the warranty. Festool is not responsible for any damages or losses incurred and user assumes all risk and responsibility with non-Festool derived products.

There have been numerous reports recently of damage to the circuit board of CTs due to static discharge presumably caused by the Ultimate Dust Deputy product.

Offline Paul G

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 10:57 AM »

Has anyone on the FOG experienced the destruction of their extractor due to the use of a Dust Deputy?


Yes me.  As a matter of fact I just spent $150.00 US for a new controller board for my CT22.  I am positive the cause was the UDD.

I have it grounded better now and seems to be OK.

Sorry if you've posted this elsewhere already and I missed it but how exactly did you resolve the grounding issue?
+1

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 01:19 PM »
Paul, Oneida has a fix that includes metal tape that runs between the inlet to the outlet of the cyclone and down to the base. You are supposed to wrap it around the cyclone fittings and then install the hoses.  You are also supposed to find a ground.  I don't remember them telling you exactly how.

Anyway, in my eyes its a crappy fix and something worthy of Makita. LOL.

I formed copper sheet to the OD of the cyclone fittings and attached wire  between them.  I ran the wire down to the inlet where I have a connector and a wire that goes into the CT and connects to ground on the bus where the power cord connects. This gets me back to house ground.

I fired up the CT with the extra grounds before I had made the final ground connection and there was so much static on the new ground system you would not want to touch anything I added.  As soon as I added the ground wire that brought all this back to house ground it settled down and worked great.

Here is my only comments...  I really like having the cyclone on the CT. Works GREAT.

But the Festool motor controller is obviously pretty sensitive.  My CT is probably 6 or 7 years old but only had about 2 hours use on it when I took the controller out. I would be afraid to take it out of my shop not knowing what the ground conditions are elsewhere. It really needs a good earth ground.

Right now I have the motor plugged directly to the bus so I have to plug/unplug the CT to make it work.  My new controller should be here next week. Hoping I don't have any issues in the future.
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Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 02:06 PM »
Sorry if you've posted this elsewhere already and I missed it but how exactly did you resolve the grounding issue?

Paul,
I spent a fair amount of time contemplating the effects of using the DD with respect to the vac, but not as much with respect to the tool. So I am not entirely sure whether this would make a difference at the tool or not. Generally speaking, if you have a non-conductive break in the vac system (e.g. a Dust Deputy), then you are better off using non-antistatic hoses for the rest of the system. The reason is because the non-antistatic hoses will spread out the charge differential over their entire length, as opposed to a conductive hose that will make the entire length carry the same charge.

Because the tool is located at the far-upstream end of the airflow, the tool won't experience as much charge elevation when used with a non-antistatic hose. What I am not entirely sure about, is whether this remains true with an antistatic hose. It all depends on where the greatest charge in the system exists.

Please Note!.... I am not referring to nuisance static shocks to the operator. That is a completely separate discussion with completely different answers. I am solely looking at it from the standpoint of protection of the tool. Some postings in the previous threads could not understand this distinction.

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2013, 08:26 PM »
Okay, you're standing there sanding a board. (I'm thinking out loud.)  The dust is sucked through the tool, through the hose and eventually into the vacuum.  As the dust passes through the hose, it creates a static charge.  Add something like a plastic cyclone, and that creates additional area to create static charges.  The operator is not grounded.  The vacuum is.  In high humidity, some of the static will be more easily dissipated.  In dry air, less so. 

All electricity, static or otherwise, seeks a path to ground with the least resistance.  In this scenario, the path with the least resistance is within the vacuum. 

When building high voltage insulators, we need a large distance between the conductor and whatever we want to insulate it from because stray voltages can track across dust and create a short.  So, dust is a known conductor.  And dust is traveling through the hose.  If the static buildup isn't quickly dissipated, the charge could be sufficient enough to mess with sensitive circuitry, such as within the vacuum.

I think it's a gamble to trust that any static buildup will be dissipated through the air, no matter how humid.  Ultimately, any static accumulating on the hose, or plastic cyclone, that is not dissipated through the air will have to be dissipated through the vacuum, unless the operator conducts to ground.

That being the case, I wondered why Festool sells non-antistatic hoses to connect to their vacuums.  I'm an electrician, not an electronics expert or scientist, so maybe there's something I'm missing.  But for me, I will only use antistatic hoses between the tool and the vac.
   

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2013, 08:31 PM »
In my experience the static vs non static hose is opposite of what you would think.  The anti-static hose carries the static all the way to the CT and discharges it there. 

When using the cheaper  NON anti-static hose the charge is dissipated along the way to anything it touches like the damp floor, other machinery and the operator (me).
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Offline Paul G

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 11:50 PM »
Thanks everyone for all the input here, I love using cyclones so I've got some things to test out.
+1

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 01:09 AM »
In my experience the static vs non static hose is opposite of what you would think.  The anti-static hose carries the static all the way to the CT and discharges it there. 

When using the cheaper  NON anti-static hose the charge is dissipated along the way to anything it touches like the damp floor, other machinery and the operator (me).

So what happens if there is no damp floor, or no human ground, or no other means for discharge?

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 02:34 AM »

So what happens if there is no damp floor, or no human ground, or no other means for discharge?

Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not specifically flow to ground. It travels from any higher voltage to a lower voltage (the electrons actually flow the opposite, but that is because Ben Franklin got a negative sign backward, and we choose not to correct it today). It also doesn't take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths, but proportional to their resistance.

Even in the absence of a direct discharge path to a lower voltage, the static charge will still dissipate into the air. The rate of discharge is lower than the rate of charge, so that is why static will build up. However, once the source of the charging is removed, the charge will begin to bleed off.

The risk to electronic equipment is when the charge builds to a high enough level to break down whatever insulation value is otherwise keeping it from moving; such as a spark. MOS (CMOS) circuitry is especially susceptible to it, because when the voltage on a MOS transistor exceeds the insulation, it literally punches a hole through the gate insulation and it becomes conductive.

Your example of high voltage insulators is kind of similar. It isn't that the dirt is conductive. It is that once an arc has occurred, it leaves a conductive trace behind that allows more current to flow past the insulator.


Offline lambeater

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 09:34 AM »
Maybe the Festool anti fatigue mats should be anti static as well with a binding strap.

thx
Lambeater

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2013, 09:57 AM »
I was working on a job once when one of the roofers came up to me and told me that the temporary steel safety cable outside on the roof was live.  I knew that wasn't possible because the steel cable was threaded through angle iron that was welded to building steel.  But I went out to check anyway and to show him the cable was not live.  I took my Fluke meter with me.

As I walked across the rubber roof membrane (the roof was not finished), I realized there was a potential for static buildup.  The soles on my shoes did not allow for static buildup as well as the soles of the roofer's shoes.  I touched the safety cable and got a mild shock.  He touched it and you could both see and hear it.  And he jumped.  The static buildup in him jumped immediately to a ground source.  And it would do the same while using a dust collector, if it had the chance before dissipating.

Electrons take the path of least resistance, and yes, there may be many paths.  Seeing a lightning strike shows that clearly.  The charge is looking to find it's way to ground and will take any path to get there, as quickly and easily as it can.  But it's kind of like a highway, if the roads are packed, you take another route, e.g the path of least resistance.

I've done a few lightning protection jobs.  Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike.  But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air.  To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load.  If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.

The unknown variable with static buildup is how much of a charge is building?  While you're sanding away, you can't feel the buildup.  And there's nothing to measure the buildup.  Typically, a person only knows there's a buildup when the it suddenly discharges, or when their hair stands on end.  [blink]

I was a foreman on another job when I arrived at work one morning to see my boss throw a smoking telephone out the trailer door.  He screamed as he did that, obviously shocked.  I walked into the trailer and he said he was talking on the phone (land line) when it started smoking.  Next thing I know the iron worker foreman in the trailer next door comes over and says his doorknob is live.  ???  I took my Fluke over and sure enough, the doorknob to trailer's steel stairs read over 50v. The stairs were free standing and now on damp ground from rain the night before.  I looked to see if the trailer was grounded.  It was.  I was scratching my head.  Then one of our guys came out of the building and said some of the temp lights were out, some were dim and some were bright. 

I went on the hunt to find out what was going on.  In the process I also learned the skip (manlift) wasn't working and found the controls were fried.  In the end, we finally agreed the building must have taken a lightning strike the night before.  Lightning protection was not yet installed.  The charge took whatever path it found and damaged a few things along its way to ground, one of them was one leg of the 3 phase temporary transformer.

I've seen some pretty crazy things in my career and I've learned that electrons are unpredictable in an uncontrolled environment.  While they ultimately make their way towards their final destination, the exact path cannot be predicted.  So you do your best to direct them along the way and help them discharge as quickly as possible so they don't do any damage, and try not to allow yourself, the tool you're using, the dust hose or the vac components to become capacitors.  And that's what tells me it's best to make sure your expensive dust vac is protected from that stray charge trying to jump through sensitive circuitry. 

Maybe the Festool anti fatigue mats should be anti static as well with a binding strap.

thx
Lambeater
Maybe [unsure]

Offline farms100

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2013, 10:29 AM »
electricity does some weird things.  I wired up a GFCI outlet and light in the bottom of an elevator shaft a friday afternoon, tested it both light and outlet tripped properly. Over the weekend the pipe cover let go, and the city sewer system flooded the underground garage and elevator shaft. besides the horrendous smell you could see the light shining up through the raw sewage.
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Offline Paul G

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2013, 11:00 AM »
electricity does some weird things.  I wired up a GFCI outlet and light in the bottom of an elevator shaft a friday afternoon, tested it both light and outlet tripped properly. Over the weekend the pipe cover let go, and the city sewer system flooded the underground garage and elevator shaft. besides the horrendous smell you could see the light shining up through the raw sewage.

Weird indeed, that GFCI maker has some explaining to do
+1

Offline farms100

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2013, 11:08 AM »
OUr theory was the sewage was so dirty it acted like a normal conductor. Odder was the circuit breaker didn't trip even when we swapped it for another brand new one.

GFCI are a great safety measure but are limited by the nature of the design.
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Offline Alan m

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2013, 06:46 PM »
could festool not put all these fancy sensitive parts in a fariday cage and protect them that way
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2013, 09:08 PM »
could festool not put all these fancy sensitive parts in a fariday cage and protect them that way

They might do something if they sold a CT with a cyclone but I guess they built a dust extractor and it works as designed.  It the 3rd party add-on that causes the issues.

I personally think Oneida should have some ownership in this. They are in reality selling a product that voids another manufactures (or potentially voids) warranty.  They know they had an issue or they would not have a fix out for it.  Torques me off dropping $150 to replace the controller recently.

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Offline mattdh

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2013, 09:28 PM »
just curious- would the steel powder coated dd cone solve all these  problems? someone said something about it? sorry i am electrically handicap- i dont follow any of this

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 12:32 PM »
If the hose from your tool to the DD is anti-static and the hose from the cyclone to the vac is anti-static, then yes, the steel cyclone would act as a conductor to complete the path from tool to vacuum.  But if the cone is painted, you'd have to remove the paint where the ports in the cone attach to the hoses.

I know this sounds silly, but an anti-static wrist band, properly grounded, would help dissipate the static charge and do so away from the vacuum (if you didn't ground it to the vacuum).  You could put it on your wrist or even on the hose.  A nearby grounded electrical box would be an excellent ground.  The problem comes from static charge buildup arcing across sensitive electronic components within the vacuum.  If you create a ground path away from the vacuum, you provide a different path for the charge to dissipate, one that wouldn't involve passing through the vacuum or its components.  And if you grounded the cone of the cyclone to something other than the vacuum, you would provide yet another path for the static charge to be dissipated that didn't involve going through the vacuum.

All this probably sounds like overkill but since it is known that the circuit boards fry in the Festool vacs (exactly how depends on the circumstances) anyone could take precautions that are pretty cheap and lessen the chance of having to replace their circuit boards in their vac.  And save $150 along the way.  Taking these steps does not necessarily mean you will never experience a blown board but they will definitely act to dissipate static charge buildup.  When you think about running dust collection pipe throughout your shop for your shop DC, it is always recommended to make sure the path from blast gate to DC is well grounded.  Fire is usually the primary reason given for grounding but it's the static charge that is the culprit.

I'm an electrician, not a Festool engineer.  Their engineers may say none of this is necessary but I doubt they would say it's inadvisable.  So until a Festool engineer pipes in, we're on our own to figure out how to best protect the sensitive components in their dust collectors.   

Offline AdamM

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 05:37 PM »

I've done a few lightning protection jobs.  Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike.  But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air.  To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load.  If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.

It's amazing how often one hears the opposite...and I'm not even an electrician!

There was a recent episode of This Old House where the contractor described lightning rods as something to attract the lightning strike and channel it to ground.  The contractor and Kevin explained that the lightning would be channelled through all the copper cables and lead to ground.  It made me want to cry.....the amount of energy in a lightning strike would melt there little copper cables into copper puddles long before dissipating all that energy!
Kapex, Domino, TS55, CT22, MFK700, MFT 1080

Offline doc4som

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 01:33 AM »
So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 02:09 PM »
So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

Unless you have some pretty sophisticated testing equipment, you can't know the exact path the static charge is taking from tool to ground.  There seems to be a reasonable possibility that some of the failed boards in CT vacs was caused by static charge buildup arcing through the board.  If you want to take all the precautionary measures you can to prevent this from happening, you need to think along the lines of those who work with PC boards.  They typically work on anti-static floor mats and wear anti-static wrist straps.  Using this in the tool shop would help dissipate the static buildup near the tool and not allow the operator to act as a capacitor (something that holds an electrical charge).

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start.  This is what Oneida says is included with the Ultimate DD:
Kit Includes:
- Industrial Static Dissipative, 9 Gallon (34L) container
- Dust Bagger, plastic bag hold-down system. No messy dumping - allows easy removal of dust in plastic bags.
- Static dissipating cyclone separator
- 6 feet of static dissipating hose with static dissipating cuffs


Although they say the cyclone is static dissipating, they include metallic tape and instructions that tell you to create a path from port to port and to one of the metal bolts that secures the cyclone to the collection bin. 
You can see the ground tail coming off the bolt at the base of the cone.

So maybe the cyclone isn't all that static dissipating. And that may also be true of the hose that comes with it.

You can use copper tape to do the same thing as in the photo above.  Then make a ground wire with something like an alligator clip on one end and a fork or ring terminal on the other end.  The third from left is a fork terminal, the fourth is a ring terminal:


The ring or fork will attach to the bolt at the base of the cyclone (as in the pic above).  The alligator clip should be attached to a known ground.

Now you should be dissipating static charges created from the tool to the cyclone and, to some extent, from the hose going to the vacuum.  That should reduce a substantial portion of the static created.

Caveats -
1. Festool does not recommend third party accessories in between their tools and their vacs.   My guess is they only test their products with their accessories.  And they feel comfortable enough to warranty their tools as they do when used in conjunction with their accessories.

2.  Static charges that are allowed to build up will eventually arc across the first thing they see as a path to ground.  My OHM meter registers zero when tested across a Festool anti-static hose.  But my meter only pushes 9 volts.  Rubbing your feet across the carpet can create 10,000 volts.  I do not know the inner workings of the CT or how, or if, an anti-static hose works to protect the vac's circuitry.  Maybe that wasn't even a thought when they designed it.   According to their website:
Festool's Antistatic hose design helps you work cleaner by preventing dust from accumulating on the exterior of the hose. It helps you work more safely by preventing static discharge or shocks. And you'll work more efficiently with a system that prevents clogging due to particulate buildup inside the hose.
They don't specifically say the hose protects your tools.  But some have said after adding the DD, they started getting shocks at the tool.  So you know the discharge path is being interrupted by the DD.

The DD does work great.  But when you have to empty it, it can be a dusty mess.  I got mine to keep my $35 "HEPA" shop vac filter from clogging and losing suction.  It works for that purpose but I seem to lose some of the suction through the DD.  So who wins?  But when it comes to the CT vac, bags cost $7@.  They can last a long time if you're sanding.  If you're planing or routing, you could probably do well with the LongLife bag, which costs about the same as the UDD and doesn't void the warranty.  So with all that, is the UDD really the best choice for Festool dust collectors?

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 03:09 PM »

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac). That's because the antistatic hose effectively places the potential of the tool or vac at the same potential of the DD's inlet or outlet tubes.

That would be fine if the DD was not capable of developing a significant buildup of potential (voltage) between its inlet and outlet tubes. However, it is well known that the DD can develop a large potential across its ports. When that potential grows large enough to jump the gap across the DD, then you have a sudden charge being interjected into either the tool or the vac.

If you were using non-antistatic hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle, this sudden discharge anywhere in the system would not immediately propagate through the hoses and into the electronics. The non-antistatic hoses would allow a charge gradient to exist from one end to the other. So a sudden discharge at any point would not immediately propagate from that discharge point to all other points in the system.

The reason why this may not be fully intuitive for you could be that you are thinking of charge dissipation in terms of pure insulators or pure conductors. Antistatic devices are neither. They are high resistance conductors. They are sufficient to bleed charge, but are not what we normally consider to be conductive. As such, the resistivity of a connection between components is greatly dependent on the surface area of the connection. This is why the copper tape is not necessarily a satisfactory solution. The copper tape is of course very conductive, but the connection to the antistatic devises is not very conductive due to the low surface area of the contact.

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 04:13 PM »
I agree with Rick on this one.. My recent experience with the non anti-static hose makes me think it's better. In a nutshell don't try harder to route the static to the CT.  Just try to dissapate to ground the static that does make it.

And regarding Oneida... after recent issues and working with their support department I give them zero credibility for knowing what they are doing or caring to fix it properly. Their "fix" for the UDD speaks volumes.
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Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 08:24 PM »

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac).

True, but I wasn't suggesting that.  If you read on you would see that I suggested creating a path across the plastic cone with conductive tape, as in the picture I posted.  I also suggested grounding the bolt, like in the picture.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 09:01 PM »

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac).

True, but I wasn't suggesting that.  If you read on you would see that I suggested creating a path across the plastic cone with conductive tape, as in the picture I posted.  I also suggested grounding the bolt, like in the picture.

As I mentioned in my post, the tape is very conductive, but the small surface area of contact with a hose does not result in a low conductivity connection with an antistatic hose. The conductivity of the hose is very low, until you take into account its entire surface area. But that tape is only touching a very small part of the surface.

The same is true with the Earth. The conductivity of dirt is almost zero, but when you take the total volume of the earth into account, that zero becomes very conductive. An infinite number of parallel paths through a high resistance body will result in a relatively small total resistance. As an electrician, you know that a single ground rod will not likely give you a low resistance connection to earth-ground. Technically, even 2 rods won't do that, but that is the limit of the NEC requirement on ground rods. It takes a very large surface area to make a reasonable connection to a non-conductive object.