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Author Topic: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac  (Read 61789 times)

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Offline Paul G

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« on: May 09, 2013, 06:16 PM »
I'm curious to know if there are any concerns warranty-wise using my new TS55REQ with my shop vac/Oneida dust sucker? Is there any kind of risk to the tools doing this with any Festool tools? I think of static mainly but curious if there are other issues I'm unaware of. This is Festool #1 for me with a Kapex likely added soon. Thanks for any feedback/guidance.
+1

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Offline ccarrolladams

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 06:29 PM »
Contact Festool USA about the warranty issues using any kind of third party between a vac and the Festool. cyclones such as the Dust Deputy, can create huge amounts of static electricity which can destroy the circuit boards within the tool.

Offline ccarrolladams

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 01:21 AM »
Peter, the issue is using any third-party device between a Festool dust extractor and a Festool.

Excessive static electricity generated by the third-party device can and have destroyed circuit boards in the tool and in the Festool dust extractor.

Shane Holland has stated several times on FOG that in cases of static damage resulting from use of the third-party devices the usual warranty might be void.

That is why I wrote the post I wrote as a warning to Festool owners. Of course the policies of Festool UL could well be different. My post only applies to NA Festool owners.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 02:19 AM »
Has anyone on the FOG experienced the destruction of their extractor due to the use of a Dust Deputy?

Yes, there were a couple of threads about it just a week or two ago.

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 10:46 AM »

Has anyone on the FOG experienced the destruction of their extractor due to the use of a Dust Deputy?


Yes me.  As a matter of fact I just spent $150.00 US for a new controller board for my CT22.  I am positive the cause was the UDD.

I have it grounded better now and seems to be OK.
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Offline Festool USA

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 10:47 AM »
Per our warranty...

Quote
Festool
does not condone nor support the use of any non-Festool engineered, designed, and manufactured accessories or consumables with Festool products. Use of any non-Festool products may affect performance or void the warranty. Festool is not responsible for any damages or losses incurred and user assumes all risk and responsibility with non-Festool derived products.

There have been numerous reports recently of damage to the circuit board of CTs due to static discharge presumably caused by the Ultimate Dust Deputy product.

Offline Paul G

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 10:57 AM »

Has anyone on the FOG experienced the destruction of their extractor due to the use of a Dust Deputy?


Yes me.  As a matter of fact I just spent $150.00 US for a new controller board for my CT22.  I am positive the cause was the UDD.

I have it grounded better now and seems to be OK.

Sorry if you've posted this elsewhere already and I missed it but how exactly did you resolve the grounding issue?
+1

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 01:19 PM »
Paul, Oneida has a fix that includes metal tape that runs between the inlet to the outlet of the cyclone and down to the base. You are supposed to wrap it around the cyclone fittings and then install the hoses.  You are also supposed to find a ground.  I don't remember them telling you exactly how.

Anyway, in my eyes its a crappy fix and something worthy of Makita. LOL.

I formed copper sheet to the OD of the cyclone fittings and attached wire  between them.  I ran the wire down to the inlet where I have a connector and a wire that goes into the CT and connects to ground on the bus where the power cord connects. This gets me back to house ground.

I fired up the CT with the extra grounds before I had made the final ground connection and there was so much static on the new ground system you would not want to touch anything I added.  As soon as I added the ground wire that brought all this back to house ground it settled down and worked great.

Here is my only comments...  I really like having the cyclone on the CT. Works GREAT.

But the Festool motor controller is obviously pretty sensitive.  My CT is probably 6 or 7 years old but only had about 2 hours use on it when I took the controller out. I would be afraid to take it out of my shop not knowing what the ground conditions are elsewhere. It really needs a good earth ground.

Right now I have the motor plugged directly to the bus so I have to plug/unplug the CT to make it work.  My new controller should be here next week. Hoping I don't have any issues in the future.
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Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 02:06 PM »
Sorry if you've posted this elsewhere already and I missed it but how exactly did you resolve the grounding issue?

Paul,
I spent a fair amount of time contemplating the effects of using the DD with respect to the vac, but not as much with respect to the tool. So I am not entirely sure whether this would make a difference at the tool or not. Generally speaking, if you have a non-conductive break in the vac system (e.g. a Dust Deputy), then you are better off using non-antistatic hoses for the rest of the system. The reason is because the non-antistatic hoses will spread out the charge differential over their entire length, as opposed to a conductive hose that will make the entire length carry the same charge.

Because the tool is located at the far-upstream end of the airflow, the tool won't experience as much charge elevation when used with a non-antistatic hose. What I am not entirely sure about, is whether this remains true with an antistatic hose. It all depends on where the greatest charge in the system exists.

Please Note!.... I am not referring to nuisance static shocks to the operator. That is a completely separate discussion with completely different answers. I am solely looking at it from the standpoint of protection of the tool. Some postings in the previous threads could not understand this distinction.

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2013, 08:26 PM »
Okay, you're standing there sanding a board. (I'm thinking out loud.)  The dust is sucked through the tool, through the hose and eventually into the vacuum.  As the dust passes through the hose, it creates a static charge.  Add something like a plastic cyclone, and that creates additional area to create static charges.  The operator is not grounded.  The vacuum is.  In high humidity, some of the static will be more easily dissipated.  In dry air, less so. 

All electricity, static or otherwise, seeks a path to ground with the least resistance.  In this scenario, the path with the least resistance is within the vacuum. 

When building high voltage insulators, we need a large distance between the conductor and whatever we want to insulate it from because stray voltages can track across dust and create a short.  So, dust is a known conductor.  And dust is traveling through the hose.  If the static buildup isn't quickly dissipated, the charge could be sufficient enough to mess with sensitive circuitry, such as within the vacuum.

I think it's a gamble to trust that any static buildup will be dissipated through the air, no matter how humid.  Ultimately, any static accumulating on the hose, or plastic cyclone, that is not dissipated through the air will have to be dissipated through the vacuum, unless the operator conducts to ground.

That being the case, I wondered why Festool sells non-antistatic hoses to connect to their vacuums.  I'm an electrician, not an electronics expert or scientist, so maybe there's something I'm missing.  But for me, I will only use antistatic hoses between the tool and the vac.
   

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2013, 08:31 PM »
In my experience the static vs non static hose is opposite of what you would think.  The anti-static hose carries the static all the way to the CT and discharges it there. 

When using the cheaper  NON anti-static hose the charge is dissipated along the way to anything it touches like the damp floor, other machinery and the operator (me).
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Offline Paul G

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 11:50 PM »
Thanks everyone for all the input here, I love using cyclones so I've got some things to test out.
+1

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 01:09 AM »
In my experience the static vs non static hose is opposite of what you would think.  The anti-static hose carries the static all the way to the CT and discharges it there. 

When using the cheaper  NON anti-static hose the charge is dissipated along the way to anything it touches like the damp floor, other machinery and the operator (me).

So what happens if there is no damp floor, or no human ground, or no other means for discharge?

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 02:34 AM »

So what happens if there is no damp floor, or no human ground, or no other means for discharge?

Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not specifically flow to ground. It travels from any higher voltage to a lower voltage (the electrons actually flow the opposite, but that is because Ben Franklin got a negative sign backward, and we choose not to correct it today). It also doesn't take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths, but proportional to their resistance.

Even in the absence of a direct discharge path to a lower voltage, the static charge will still dissipate into the air. The rate of discharge is lower than the rate of charge, so that is why static will build up. However, once the source of the charging is removed, the charge will begin to bleed off.

The risk to electronic equipment is when the charge builds to a high enough level to break down whatever insulation value is otherwise keeping it from moving; such as a spark. MOS (CMOS) circuitry is especially susceptible to it, because when the voltage on a MOS transistor exceeds the insulation, it literally punches a hole through the gate insulation and it becomes conductive.

Your example of high voltage insulators is kind of similar. It isn't that the dirt is conductive. It is that once an arc has occurred, it leaves a conductive trace behind that allows more current to flow past the insulator.


Offline lambeater

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 09:34 AM »
Maybe the Festool anti fatigue mats should be anti static as well with a binding strap.

thx
Lambeater

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2013, 09:57 AM »
I was working on a job once when one of the roofers came up to me and told me that the temporary steel safety cable outside on the roof was live.  I knew that wasn't possible because the steel cable was threaded through angle iron that was welded to building steel.  But I went out to check anyway and to show him the cable was not live.  I took my Fluke meter with me.

As I walked across the rubber roof membrane (the roof was not finished), I realized there was a potential for static buildup.  The soles on my shoes did not allow for static buildup as well as the soles of the roofer's shoes.  I touched the safety cable and got a mild shock.  He touched it and you could both see and hear it.  And he jumped.  The static buildup in him jumped immediately to a ground source.  And it would do the same while using a dust collector, if it had the chance before dissipating.

Electrons take the path of least resistance, and yes, there may be many paths.  Seeing a lightning strike shows that clearly.  The charge is looking to find it's way to ground and will take any path to get there, as quickly and easily as it can.  But it's kind of like a highway, if the roads are packed, you take another route, e.g the path of least resistance.

I've done a few lightning protection jobs.  Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike.  But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air.  To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load.  If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.

The unknown variable with static buildup is how much of a charge is building?  While you're sanding away, you can't feel the buildup.  And there's nothing to measure the buildup.  Typically, a person only knows there's a buildup when the it suddenly discharges, or when their hair stands on end.  [blink]

I was a foreman on another job when I arrived at work one morning to see my boss throw a smoking telephone out the trailer door.  He screamed as he did that, obviously shocked.  I walked into the trailer and he said he was talking on the phone (land line) when it started smoking.  Next thing I know the iron worker foreman in the trailer next door comes over and says his doorknob is live.  ???  I took my Fluke over and sure enough, the doorknob to trailer's steel stairs read over 50v. The stairs were free standing and now on damp ground from rain the night before.  I looked to see if the trailer was grounded.  It was.  I was scratching my head.  Then one of our guys came out of the building and said some of the temp lights were out, some were dim and some were bright. 

I went on the hunt to find out what was going on.  In the process I also learned the skip (manlift) wasn't working and found the controls were fried.  In the end, we finally agreed the building must have taken a lightning strike the night before.  Lightning protection was not yet installed.  The charge took whatever path it found and damaged a few things along its way to ground, one of them was one leg of the 3 phase temporary transformer.

I've seen some pretty crazy things in my career and I've learned that electrons are unpredictable in an uncontrolled environment.  While they ultimately make their way towards their final destination, the exact path cannot be predicted.  So you do your best to direct them along the way and help them discharge as quickly as possible so they don't do any damage, and try not to allow yourself, the tool you're using, the dust hose or the vac components to become capacitors.  And that's what tells me it's best to make sure your expensive dust vac is protected from that stray charge trying to jump through sensitive circuitry. 

Maybe the Festool anti fatigue mats should be anti static as well with a binding strap.

thx
Lambeater
Maybe [unsure]

Offline farms100

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2013, 10:29 AM »
electricity does some weird things.  I wired up a GFCI outlet and light in the bottom of an elevator shaft a friday afternoon, tested it both light and outlet tripped properly. Over the weekend the pipe cover let go, and the city sewer system flooded the underground garage and elevator shaft. besides the horrendous smell you could see the light shining up through the raw sewage.
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Offline Paul G

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2013, 11:00 AM »
electricity does some weird things.  I wired up a GFCI outlet and light in the bottom of an elevator shaft a friday afternoon, tested it both light and outlet tripped properly. Over the weekend the pipe cover let go, and the city sewer system flooded the underground garage and elevator shaft. besides the horrendous smell you could see the light shining up through the raw sewage.

Weird indeed, that GFCI maker has some explaining to do
+1

Offline farms100

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2013, 11:08 AM »
OUr theory was the sewage was so dirty it acted like a normal conductor. Odder was the circuit breaker didn't trip even when we swapped it for another brand new one.

GFCI are a great safety measure but are limited by the nature of the design.
eastern mass guild of woodworkers. http://www.emgw.org

Offline Alan m

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2013, 06:46 PM »
could festool not put all these fancy sensitive parts in a fariday cage and protect them that way
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2013, 09:08 PM »
could festool not put all these fancy sensitive parts in a fariday cage and protect them that way

They might do something if they sold a CT with a cyclone but I guess they built a dust extractor and it works as designed.  It the 3rd party add-on that causes the issues.

I personally think Oneida should have some ownership in this. They are in reality selling a product that voids another manufactures (or potentially voids) warranty.  They know they had an issue or they would not have a fix out for it.  Torques me off dropping $150 to replace the controller recently.

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Offline mattdh

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2013, 09:28 PM »
just curious- would the steel powder coated dd cone solve all these  problems? someone said something about it? sorry i am electrically handicap- i dont follow any of this

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 12:32 PM »
If the hose from your tool to the DD is anti-static and the hose from the cyclone to the vac is anti-static, then yes, the steel cyclone would act as a conductor to complete the path from tool to vacuum.  But if the cone is painted, you'd have to remove the paint where the ports in the cone attach to the hoses.

I know this sounds silly, but an anti-static wrist band, properly grounded, would help dissipate the static charge and do so away from the vacuum (if you didn't ground it to the vacuum).  You could put it on your wrist or even on the hose.  A nearby grounded electrical box would be an excellent ground.  The problem comes from static charge buildup arcing across sensitive electronic components within the vacuum.  If you create a ground path away from the vacuum, you provide a different path for the charge to dissipate, one that wouldn't involve passing through the vacuum or its components.  And if you grounded the cone of the cyclone to something other than the vacuum, you would provide yet another path for the static charge to be dissipated that didn't involve going through the vacuum.

All this probably sounds like overkill but since it is known that the circuit boards fry in the Festool vacs (exactly how depends on the circumstances) anyone could take precautions that are pretty cheap and lessen the chance of having to replace their circuit boards in their vac.  And save $150 along the way.  Taking these steps does not necessarily mean you will never experience a blown board but they will definitely act to dissipate static charge buildup.  When you think about running dust collection pipe throughout your shop for your shop DC, it is always recommended to make sure the path from blast gate to DC is well grounded.  Fire is usually the primary reason given for grounding but it's the static charge that is the culprit.

I'm an electrician, not a Festool engineer.  Their engineers may say none of this is necessary but I doubt they would say it's inadvisable.  So until a Festool engineer pipes in, we're on our own to figure out how to best protect the sensitive components in their dust collectors.   

Offline AdamM

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 05:37 PM »

I've done a few lightning protection jobs.  Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike.  But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air.  To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load.  If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.

It's amazing how often one hears the opposite...and I'm not even an electrician!

There was a recent episode of This Old House where the contractor described lightning rods as something to attract the lightning strike and channel it to ground.  The contractor and Kevin explained that the lightning would be channelled through all the copper cables and lead to ground.  It made me want to cry.....the amount of energy in a lightning strike would melt there little copper cables into copper puddles long before dissipating all that energy!
Kapex, Domino, TS55, CT22, MFK700, MFT 1080

Offline doc4som

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 01:33 AM »
So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 02:09 PM »
So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

Unless you have some pretty sophisticated testing equipment, you can't know the exact path the static charge is taking from tool to ground.  There seems to be a reasonable possibility that some of the failed boards in CT vacs was caused by static charge buildup arcing through the board.  If you want to take all the precautionary measures you can to prevent this from happening, you need to think along the lines of those who work with PC boards.  They typically work on anti-static floor mats and wear anti-static wrist straps.  Using this in the tool shop would help dissipate the static buildup near the tool and not allow the operator to act as a capacitor (something that holds an electrical charge).

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start.  This is what Oneida says is included with the Ultimate DD:
Kit Includes:
- Industrial Static Dissipative, 9 Gallon (34L) container
- Dust Bagger, plastic bag hold-down system. No messy dumping - allows easy removal of dust in plastic bags.
- Static dissipating cyclone separator
- 6 feet of static dissipating hose with static dissipating cuffs


Although they say the cyclone is static dissipating, they include metallic tape and instructions that tell you to create a path from port to port and to one of the metal bolts that secures the cyclone to the collection bin. 
You can see the ground tail coming off the bolt at the base of the cone.

So maybe the cyclone isn't all that static dissipating. And that may also be true of the hose that comes with it.

You can use copper tape to do the same thing as in the photo above.  Then make a ground wire with something like an alligator clip on one end and a fork or ring terminal on the other end.  The third from left is a fork terminal, the fourth is a ring terminal:


The ring or fork will attach to the bolt at the base of the cyclone (as in the pic above).  The alligator clip should be attached to a known ground.

Now you should be dissipating static charges created from the tool to the cyclone and, to some extent, from the hose going to the vacuum.  That should reduce a substantial portion of the static created.

Caveats -
1. Festool does not recommend third party accessories in between their tools and their vacs.   My guess is they only test their products with their accessories.  And they feel comfortable enough to warranty their tools as they do when used in conjunction with their accessories.

2.  Static charges that are allowed to build up will eventually arc across the first thing they see as a path to ground.  My OHM meter registers zero when tested across a Festool anti-static hose.  But my meter only pushes 9 volts.  Rubbing your feet across the carpet can create 10,000 volts.  I do not know the inner workings of the CT or how, or if, an anti-static hose works to protect the vac's circuitry.  Maybe that wasn't even a thought when they designed it.   According to their website:
Festool's Antistatic hose design helps you work cleaner by preventing dust from accumulating on the exterior of the hose. It helps you work more safely by preventing static discharge or shocks. And you'll work more efficiently with a system that prevents clogging due to particulate buildup inside the hose.
They don't specifically say the hose protects your tools.  But some have said after adding the DD, they started getting shocks at the tool.  So you know the discharge path is being interrupted by the DD.

The DD does work great.  But when you have to empty it, it can be a dusty mess.  I got mine to keep my $35 "HEPA" shop vac filter from clogging and losing suction.  It works for that purpose but I seem to lose some of the suction through the DD.  So who wins?  But when it comes to the CT vac, bags cost $7@.  They can last a long time if you're sanding.  If you're planing or routing, you could probably do well with the LongLife bag, which costs about the same as the UDD and doesn't void the warranty.  So with all that, is the UDD really the best choice for Festool dust collectors?

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 03:09 PM »

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac). That's because the antistatic hose effectively places the potential of the tool or vac at the same potential of the DD's inlet or outlet tubes.

That would be fine if the DD was not capable of developing a significant buildup of potential (voltage) between its inlet and outlet tubes. However, it is well known that the DD can develop a large potential across its ports. When that potential grows large enough to jump the gap across the DD, then you have a sudden charge being interjected into either the tool or the vac.

If you were using non-antistatic hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle, this sudden discharge anywhere in the system would not immediately propagate through the hoses and into the electronics. The non-antistatic hoses would allow a charge gradient to exist from one end to the other. So a sudden discharge at any point would not immediately propagate from that discharge point to all other points in the system.

The reason why this may not be fully intuitive for you could be that you are thinking of charge dissipation in terms of pure insulators or pure conductors. Antistatic devices are neither. They are high resistance conductors. They are sufficient to bleed charge, but are not what we normally consider to be conductive. As such, the resistivity of a connection between components is greatly dependent on the surface area of the connection. This is why the copper tape is not necessarily a satisfactory solution. The copper tape is of course very conductive, but the connection to the antistatic devises is not very conductive due to the low surface area of the contact.

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 04:13 PM »
I agree with Rick on this one.. My recent experience with the non anti-static hose makes me think it's better. In a nutshell don't try harder to route the static to the CT.  Just try to dissapate to ground the static that does make it.

And regarding Oneida... after recent issues and working with their support department I give them zero credibility for knowing what they are doing or caring to fix it properly. Their "fix" for the UDD speaks volumes.
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Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 08:24 PM »

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac).

True, but I wasn't suggesting that.  If you read on you would see that I suggested creating a path across the plastic cone with conductive tape, as in the picture I posted.  I also suggested grounding the bolt, like in the picture.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 09:01 PM »

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac).

True, but I wasn't suggesting that.  If you read on you would see that I suggested creating a path across the plastic cone with conductive tape, as in the picture I posted.  I also suggested grounding the bolt, like in the picture.

As I mentioned in my post, the tape is very conductive, but the small surface area of contact with a hose does not result in a low conductivity connection with an antistatic hose. The conductivity of the hose is very low, until you take into account its entire surface area. But that tape is only touching a very small part of the surface.

The same is true with the Earth. The conductivity of dirt is almost zero, but when you take the total volume of the earth into account, that zero becomes very conductive. An infinite number of parallel paths through a high resistance body will result in a relatively small total resistance. As an electrician, you know that a single ground rod will not likely give you a low resistance connection to earth-ground. Technically, even 2 rods won't do that, but that is the limit of the NEC requirement on ground rods. It takes a very large surface area to make a reasonable connection to a non-conductive object.

Offline jacko9

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2013, 09:25 PM »
Has anyone contacted Oneida with this continuing issue?  I have the Oneida V-System shop system and I'm very happy with it and I have the UDD on my CT22 which I am now concerned about.  I have contacted my sales representative at Oneida about the concerns expressed here on the FOG and I was wondering if anybody else has contacted them for a solution?

Jack

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 10:21 PM »
I did.  They sent me the cheap tape solution which I didn't use. They act like its no big deal that I had to buy a new $145 controller.

I also sent an email to customer service about 10 days ago. No response.

The way I look at it the UDD is a turnkey solution that comes at a premium price of twice the cost of standard DD.



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Offline farms100

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 10:57 PM »
Wrapping the plastic DD in tinfoil would give you lots of surface area. Also it would fit in well with any friends that are conspiracy theorists.   [big grin]
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Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2013, 12:27 AM »
You can use copper tape to do the same thing as in the photo above. 
I was thinking this:


Regardless, the bottom line is how important is it to the owner of a Festool vac to catch dust and chips before it reaches the vacuum bag?  For me, as I stated earlier, I won't connect the DD to the CT vac.  It's a great system as is.  Each owner has to decide for himself or herself what's most important to them and accept any consequences that may happen from ignoring Festool's recommendations.

I did.  They sent me the cheap tape solution which I didn't use. They act like its no big deal that I had to buy a new $145 controller.

I also sent an email to customer service about 10 days ago. No response.

The way I look at it the UDD is a turnkey solution that comes at a premium price of twice the cost of standard DD.

Sorry to hear that happened.  Though it doesn't say much about Oneida, does it? 

Offline Paul G

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2013, 02:49 AM »
Wrapping the plastic DD in tinfoil would give you lots of surface area. Also it would fit in well with any friends that are conspiracy theorists.   [big grin]

Which explains why they are rarely affected by all the static that is thrown at them [big grin]

Gonna add some grounding to my Oneida and see how it goes.
+1

Offline farms100

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2013, 08:18 AM »
that copper tape looks pretty cool.

I wonder as you wrap the tape up and overlap like you would when taping a splice.  Would the adhesive interfere with the good grounding contact?
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Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2013, 10:01 AM »
So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

The problem is there is no official and perfect fix.  Because no matter what you do with Oneida  you are still going to have 'potential' warranty issues with Festool.

The other issue is Oneida has come out with a repair that is Mickey Mouse and is cheap for them to provide.  In my opinion its an eye sore and prone to failure when the tape breaks after a few times sliding the hoses on and off.

In a nutshell Oneida wants you to electrically connect the inlet and outlet of the cyclone as well as the base. They want you to connect this to ground although they don't tell you how.

I basically followed Oneida's electrical recommendations but did it in a physical manner that I felt was acceptable and properly done.

So as you requested here are a few pictures.  As you can see I formed thin copper to fit the cyclone inlet and outlet and made a tab that sticks inside where the debris drops into the box.   I connected all of this with wires (and a connector for easy removal) and ran it back to the inlet of the CT where I have another formed copper piece and a wire entering the CT and connecting to the power bus.

Note: Blue wire connected to bus is the one I added.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 10:04 AM by rrmccabe »
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Offline Oneida-Jeff

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2013, 04:34 PM »
A few of our customers have reported static problems while using the Dust Deputy.   Oneida is offering an upgraded grounding kit which includes a
more-conductive hose and supplemental grounding components free of charge for those customers.  This should eliminate any static problems on vacuums with static conductive inlets which are properly connected to a functional house ground.

Couple notes:
Not all vacuums have a static-conductive inlet.  Please ensure that your vacuum has an anti-static inlet and if it does not you must provide an alternate direct earth ground path from your hose and connections. 

Some people have reported that their static problems were caused by an improperly connected house ground.  Please ensure you are properly connected to a house ground per your vacuum’s instructions.

Currently all Oneida Ultimate Dust Deputies from the factory have static dissipative components and these supplemental grounding measures to ensure a completely grounded system. 


Please click here for more info and to request the upgrade kit.


-Jeff
Oneida Air Systems

Offline Luis (ridgenj)

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2013, 04:50 PM »
Jeff, many thanks for the update  and for standing behind your products.

My best
Luis

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2013, 05:06 PM »
and supplemental grounding components

Thanks for response. By supplimental grounding components do you mean 3' of foil stick on tape?

If so, I really don't consider this a long term fix as sliding the hoses on and off will sever the tape where its folded over the fitting.

If I come off as disgruntled its because I am.  I just shelled out $150 for a new motor controller last week because of the UDD when it was supposed to be a turn-key solution for the Festool CT vacuums.  So still have a bad taste in my mouth.

Once again I appreciate you taking time to respond here.
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Offline Oneida-Jeff

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2013, 03:56 PM »
We have an upgraded, more conductive hose, metal adapter for attaching to the vacuum inlet etc.  We are finalizing the components and instructions but it is a simpler and improved kit all-around. 

If you need one, just sign up via the link in my other posts and we will get you taken care of. 

-Jeff

Offline Julimor

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2013, 04:29 PM »
Jeff,

From reading online posts, I know that not everyone who uses the DD in conjunction with a Festool CT uses the Ultimate.  Some use the Deluxe DD.  Does Oneida plan on offering the same update for the Deluxe as the Ultimate?

Offline TomGadwa1

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2013, 08:39 AM »
A $10.00 dollar bag, a $150.00 dollar controller, a $10.00 dollar bag, a $150.00 dollar controller, a $10.00 dollar bag, a $150.00 dollar controller,,,,,, etc.  Hmmm!  What should I do? I think I will save my money and NOT buy a dust deputy and put the money towards some bags! Also I think that having that silly looking thing on top of my really professionally designed CT36 is an insult to an excellent product! It is not that hard to change the bags out and I would rather do that than risk damage to my CT36 because I want to save some money on the bags. Bags are cheap relative to a controller circuit board replacement!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 08:46 AM by TomGadwa1 »
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Offline electricald

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2013, 12:32 PM »
Hey everyone,

I need to weigh in on this. Shane did not say that static electricity had destroyed circuit boards. The word he used was presumably.
I have been in the electrical/electronics industry for the past 25 years and have handled thousands of circuit boards and certainly much more complicated than what is in a Festool dust extractor.
Shane, how many circuit boards are on the festool DE and with what you are expecting to be static electricity, are the boards that are being damaged examined more closely? Or is the board replaced and that's it. I am not about to say categorically that static discharge is not the culprit, but not to jump in and say it is either.

Regards,
Dan


Peter, the issue is using any third-party device between a Festool dust extractor and a Festool.

Excessive static electricity generated by the third-party device can and have destroyed circuit boards in the tool and in the Festool dust extractor.

Shane Holland has stated several times on FOG that in cases of static damage resulting from use of the third-party devices the usual warranty might be void.

That is why I wrote the post I wrote as a warning to Festool owners. Of course the policies of Festool UL could well be different. My post only applies to NA Festool owners.

Offline Festool USA

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2013, 12:42 PM »
Dan,

I think the Oneida has all but admitted there's a problem since they are offering a free upgrade kit to help with static. The reason I said presumably was because that was the common denominator among the damaged circuit boards. They were all used with a Dust Deputy.

Offline williaty

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2013, 03:26 PM »
They said they'd ship the upgrade/repair kit right out to me. It's almost two weeks later now and no sign of it. I am not amused with Oneida at this point.

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2013, 09:03 PM »
I think the upgrade is coming but is not finalized. They were supposed to send me a draft of the instructions a couple weeks ago but I never did see it.

I think their sign up for upgrade deal was to help calm the storm and not that they were really ready.
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Offline jacko9

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2013, 10:19 PM »
I think the upgrade is coming but is not finalized. They were supposed to send me a draft of the instructions a couple weeks ago but I never did see it.

I think their sign up for upgrade deal was to help calm the storm and not that they were really ready.

I received my UDD upgrade kit today along with detailed instructions.

Jack

Offline Corwin

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2013, 10:31 PM »

I received my UDD upgrade kit today along with detailed instructions.

Jack

What?  No pictures?  Must not have happened...    [big grin] [big grin] [wink] [popcorn]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline electricald

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2013, 10:42 PM »
Hey Shane,
Well that is a fair comment. I did get this upgrade kit when I bought the DD but didn't use it. I am not 100% convinced that installing a piece of foil tape will do the trick for the whole case of the DD. I think there is a bit more to it than that. Incidentally the hose that they supplied I have been meaning to change it but I don't think Festool makes one that size. Thanks for the comment. What Oneida should have done was made the whole thing of metal.

Regards,
Dan



Dan,

I think the Oneida has all but admitted there's a problem since they are offering a free upgrade kit to help with static. The reason I said presumably was because that was the common denominator among the damaged circuit boards. They were all used with a Dust Deputy.

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2013, 11:15 PM »

I received my UDD upgrade kit today along with detailed instructions.

Jack

The new one with a hose or just the old original update with tape?

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Offline jacko9

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2013, 08:08 PM »

I received my UDD upgrade kit today along with detailed instructions.

Jack

The new one with a hose or just the old original update with tape?



I have the new kit with the black hose, etc.

Jack

Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2013, 08:10 PM »
Well they must be moving forward then.
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Offline Timtool

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 07:34 AM »
i'm a bit struck by this whole thing, could someone maybe explain the reason why they use a cyclone on a CT vac?
If it's to save bags then a longlife bag is cheaper and more practical, if it's to keep the airflow high i could understand even though i can only suspect this addition makes the CT work harder because creating this cyclone action must take quite a bit of energy.
The vacs are designed to function perfectly without, so is it not a bit like fixing a problem that doesn't exist, by adding a real problem (static build up)?
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Offline rrmccabe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2013, 08:46 AM »
I don't have a long life bag so can't compare.  But static issues aside (which no one planned on when they purchased it) the Ultimate Dust Deputy  cost less than the long life bag, holds a lot more material and if you use the disposable bags its easier and faster to change than a bag in the vac.

The performance for me is better than my original bag because the performance doesn't drop off as the bag fills.

Course if the static issue continues there is no reason to consider one. But I am hoping Oneida has that fixed !
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Offline jacko9

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2013, 01:44 PM »
I don't have a long life bag so can't compare.  But static issues aside (which no one planned on when they purchased it) the Ultimate Dust Deputy  cost less than the long life bag, holds a lot more material and if you use the disposable bags its easier and faster to change than a bag in the vac.

The performance for me is better than my original bag because the performance doesn't drop off as the bag fills.

Course if the static issue continues there is no reason to consider one. But I am hoping Oneida has that fixed !

I'm assuming that the Oneida Fix will work but as mentioned above, the long life bag exposes you to the very dust your trying so hard to avoid when you have to empty that bag.

With the UDD, I just throw away the plastic bad dust and all.

Jack

Offline electricald

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2013, 10:37 PM »
Hello Tim,
I bought the UDD not to save on bags but to save on my lungs. If 90% of the sawdust or dust in general goes into the cyclone/box then doesn't that suggest less to even get to the vac and then less, potentially to the air? It is the same reason why I bought the CV 1800 Clearvue Cyclone. And it looks like I will be dealing with static on that as well (I don't have it up yet). I never thought about loading down the vac as you mentioned about using extra energy. One way to test this is to remove the hose from the cyclone and see if the noise pitch changes on the vac. If it goes lower then there is a load put on the vac. I am going to try that when I get home. Good point.
Regards,
Dan

i'm a bit struck by this whole thing, could someone maybe explain the reason why they use a cyclone on a CT vac?
If it's to save bags then a longlife bag is cheaper and more practical, if it's to keep the airflow high i could understand even though i can only suspect this addition makes the CT work harder because creating this cyclone action must take quite a bit of energy.
The vacs are designed to function perfectly without, so is it not a bit like fixing a problem that doesn't exist, by adding a real problem (static build up)?

Offline ach_78

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2014, 06:30 PM »
Hey guys,

What if you were to ground the cyclone as good as you can with copper tape and so on, and yet, use non-antistatic hoses to the tool and to the vac.

Wouldn't that be the best bet to avoid any harm to your equipment ?

Offline wow

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2014, 02:56 AM »
Hey guys,

What if you were to ground the cyclone as good as you can with copper tape and so on, and yet, use non-antistatic hoses to the tool and to the vac.

Wouldn't that be the best bet to avoid any harm to your equipment ?

Didn't see your question until now.

No, I don't think this would be a good idea. If you don't maintain a continuous ground you invite a static discharge to occur 'someplace'. You KNOW it will happen. You don't necessarily know WHERE it will happen. Just the fact that it DOES happen produces a high-voltage, low-current 'pulse' that isn't good for you or your equipment.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline jacko9

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2014, 02:10 PM »
I'm only one data point but, I installed the free Oneida supplied grounding system on my UDD and I use the system every day on my CT22 with no issues so far and that has been over a year.  I used the UDD on my CT22 for a year before that without the free Oneida supplied kit with no issues.  But since I know how nasty static discharge can be I contacted Oneida and they responded pretty fast with the upgrade.

Jack

Offline FinishingCanuck

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2014, 09:05 PM »
I just requested the kit. I will update when it comes and if it works

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline jacko9

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2014, 01:44 PM »
I just requested the kit. I will update when it comes and if it works

The kit works for me every day and I use my CT22 as a shop vac as well as hooked up to my Festool Domino, Sanders (5 ea) and to my Leigh Dovetail jig.

Good luck,

Jack

Offline motownTOM

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2014, 02:18 PM »
Ok this thread is making my head hurt...  I need something clarified. I just purchased a ts75 and an MFT3. I dont have the money for the vac system right now. Is there an issue with buying a hose or adaptor to hook my craftsman shop vac up to the ts75?  I havent even unboxed anything yet so I still have time to return it all if I am going to run into problems. This is way too much money to have to worry about static electricity ruining it.  Thanks

Offline FinishingCanuck

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2014, 06:36 PM »
I received the UDD upgrade kit in the mail today. I filled out their online request form on dec 13. I'd say that's pretty darn good considering the holidays, it was free and I didn't even provide them with a receipt. I'm very happy with their service and product. I recommend this to anyone interested in the dust deputy

Offline ivanhoe

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2014, 07:04 PM »
Tom - no worries on using a Craftsman vac with your Festool saw. I used and sometimes still use a  Rigid vac with my tracksaw without any worries. The issue/ potential issue is with a Festool vac and some form of cyclone between these tools. I forgot to mention I used a Dustright Vortex between my track saw and Rigid vac without any issues. I don't use the Vortex when running my CT36.

Rod

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2014, 07:52 PM »
In all fairness as previously posted this thread has been about damage to the CT's presumably caused by static electricity when used in combination with the Ultimate Dust Deputy - not about tools like the TS-75 being damaged.  That being said, the warranty statement from Festool that Shane posted early in the thread does not differentiate between CT's and other tools.  So, if your tool is damaged (as you ask) by static electricity while using a non Festool product hooked up to it then there is a real chance that the damage would not be covered by the Festool warranty. 

That might seem extreme or unusual to some but it is normal for manufacturers to have exclusions.  They have to.  If I hook up a battery charger to my wife's car incorrectly and do damage I assure you that the damage will not be covered by her GM warranty.

Not trying to be an alarmist, I personally would take the risk and do what you are prescribing to do, but there is a risk.

Peter
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Offline motownTOM

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2014, 02:53 AM »
Well if it is the CT dust collector that is getting toasted I guess I wont worry about saving my pennies to go buy one... As far as festool not differentiating between the CT and other tools it really makes me wonder....Never was I told before purchasing, nor anywhere in the manual that I can see, does it state you can only use festool brand dust collection with their tools. If that were the case I surely would have second thought the purchase. If there truly is a real issue here, festool needs to man up and fix the problem. To steal your GM comparison, the ignition switches were not designed as hangers for big wads of keys but none the less they were aware of the problem, and thus responsible for it. To acknowledge a problem and not address that problem in a constructive way is no way to do business.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2014, 05:20 AM »
I think that this last post misses the point. No manufacturer can cover every possible use of their tools in any warranty statement otherwise it would be 100s of pages long. "...and owners of the TS75 cannot throw their tools off the top of a cliff or use it under water."

Festool have made an honest statement, on this forum as a result of a query from a FOGger, that they do not recommend that a DD be used with their CTs and will not cover static discharge damage. That is perfectly reasonable.

I use a DD connected to my CT and I take the risk. I know that the risk is my responsibility as I have read Festool's statements here on the FOG.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 01:07 AM by Peter Parfitt »

Offline motownTOM

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2014, 01:33 PM »
No Im honestly not missing the point. The tools are equipped for dust collection. (Officially) The retailer nor the manufacturer have said that only festool brand dust collection can be used. If I hadn't stumbled across this thread online how would I or anyone else know of such limitations? The point I think that is being missed is that festool has a problem with their product and is failing to address that problem. I dont think any customer would find it reasonable to use their tool under water, but I do think most everyone would find it reasonable to use aftermarket dust collection with a tool  equipped for dust collection, unless warned not to do so by the manufacturer up front. A post on a message board is certainly not adequate.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2014, 01:48 PM »
Loads of people are using non Festool extractors with their Festool tools - I use one of my Numatics with my TS55 and I don't think that anyone has an issue with that. The problem comes with the plastic cyclone extractors, perhaps like the Dust Deputy, that may make static build up more likely. These cyclones are not extractors, they are interceptors that fit between the tool and the extractor. They do not have the continuous earthing that Festool extractors and hoses have built-in which is a weakness.

Peter

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2014, 02:06 PM »
I believe Peter's posting has caused some misunderstanding in this discussion. First off, Shane's warranty comment did not state that using aftermarket accessories or tools would void a warranty. It simply stated that if those accessories were the cause of damage, then the repair may not be covered by warranty. This is typical for any warranty.

Separately, there is also some confusion about static. Static in itself isn't causing damage, and there is little risk to the tool itself. Using non-antistatic components doesn't necessarily pose any problems. The unique issue with the Dust Deputy is that it was placing a non-conductive break in an otherwise conductive path. If the entire path were non-conductive (non-antistatic) then it wouldn't be an issue. It is this break in an otherwise conductive system that poses the risk because it can result in a sudden discharge across the DD body, which is conductively connected to the vacuum. This discharge goes toward the vacuum, not toward the tool.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2014, 03:27 PM »
 [thanks] Rick

Peter

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2014, 03:40 PM »
[thanks] Rick

Peter

Oops. It didn't even dawn on me that there were two Peters posting. I was addressing Peter Halle's warranty comments a little farther above.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2014, 04:26 PM »
[thanks] Rick

Peter

Oops. It didn't even dawn on me that there were two Peters posting. I was addressing Peter Halle's warranty comments a little farther above.

I guessed it was not me hence the light hearted way I took it.

Happy New Year.

Peter

Offline jacko9

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2015, 08:19 PM »
The current model of the UDD has a conductive cyclone and as far as I know all conductive connections, hoses, etc.  The original UDD I purchased had the plastic cyclone and hoses that were non-conductive but, Oneida has replaced all of those parts free of charge with conductive parts.  I have had my CT22 since the first Domino joiner hit the market and I have had no problems using the UDD with it (at my own risk).  I sure like the convenience of having a large collector box between my tools and my CT22 dust bag which hasn't been changed in two years.  I would like to give credit to Oneida Air Systems for quickly acting to fix any actual or perceived static discharge issues quickly and upgrading existing customers with upgrade kits free of charge.

Jack

Offline Mr Heavy

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2015, 04:29 AM »
When I'm winding the operating table up to the ceiling and opening the dome in the thunderstorm so the life-giving lightning can lick around the body on the table, the Master keeps me chained to the floor of the laboratory. I believe this is so that static in the air can drain to ground through me, keeping us all safe. The Master calls it a grounding strap.

Would I be better off with an insulated chain instead?
Sys4 with cheese sandwich, a small pork pie with Tabasco sauce, a nice bottle of dry, vintage Prosecco and three reusable ice packs. Olives with pimento and a capon, roast in Dijon mustard. Several slices of fresh pineapple, a scale model of the Eiffel tower made from noodles, black forest gateau and a gingham table cloth for the MFT-3. A block of Parmesan and a Stanley 2" chisel for grating.
Sys3 with a half bottle of La Fée Absinthe, a spoon and vodka-soaked mint with Rothenberger blow-torch.
125 year old balsamic vinegar in spray bottle.
Ibuprofen and a pair of handcuffs. 2 loaves, 5 (very) small fishes, some bread, broken. A goblet of blood-red wine, a hammer... nails

Offline Holmz

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2015, 07:07 PM »
When I'm winding the operating table up to the ceiling and opening the dome in the thunderstorm so the life-giving lightning can lick around the body on the table, the Master keeps me chained to the floor of the laboratory. I believe this is so that static in the air can drain to ground through me, keeping us all safe. The Master calls it a grounding strap.

Would I be better off with an insulated chain instead?

And what about a ball gag like in the scene from the Tarantino movie?

Offline JimH2

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2017, 10:34 AM »
Use the DD with your vacuum if you want. Plenty of others do and if it fails there is no reason to even mention it. I'll equate to putting different rims and tires on your car.

Offline rdr

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Re: Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2017, 02:52 PM »


Separately, there is also some confusion about static. Static in itself isn't causing damage, and there is little risk to the tool itself. Using non-antistatic components doesn't necessarily pose any problems. The unique issue with the Dust Deputy is that it was placing a non-conductive break in an otherwise conductive path. If the entire path were non-conductive (non-antistatic) then it wouldn't be an issue. It is this break in an otherwise conductive system that poses the risk because it can result in a sudden discharge across the DD body, which is conductively connected to the vacuum. This discharge goes toward the vacuum, not toward the tool.

Thats interesting Rick

I was examining my AS hose and AS hose connectors the other day with a view to extending them over a boom Arm and looking to ensure the entire path back to the CT Midi would be conductive. When I placed a continuity meter over the AS hose and fittings they were not conductive anywhere as far as I could tell. I came to the conclusion they were isolating the machine from static rather than providing a path to ground. I'm no expert in this subject matter so maybe I'm missing something, is the purpose of Antistatic hose to carry static back to the machine for grounding or is it to not build static charge up in large quantities and risk  charging the debris entering the machine?