Author Topic: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice  (Read 6334 times)

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Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« on: November 01, 2015, 08:24 AM »
I have another question about a table resurfacing project I'm starting next week, which relates to adhesives.

I'm resurfacing the tables pictured below, which have a Baltic Birch top with spray lacquer finish, with a Melamine coated sheet of veneer core plywood known as Colorfin (melamine coating is on both sides):

232066-0

The Colorfin sheets will be secured to the existing top with screws from the bottom of the table -- but I also wanted to glue down the edges so there are no visible gaps between the old top and the new.

So I'm wondering, what would be a good adhesive to use for this -- again, something I would only apply to the edges rather than the whole panel, which would not be responsible for securing the panel but simply to keep the edges together.  I want something that would dry relatively quickly, as well as something that would not expand/squirt out onto the edge itself.  I think I read somewhere that you can mix superglue with other types of adhesives to get the materials to set quickly while the other glue does its work.  Is this also an option?

Thanks for any suggestions.
 
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

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Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3424
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2015, 10:03 AM »
but I also wanted to glue down the edges so there are no visible gaps between the old top and the new.

Why?
Just screw it to the top and leave it at that. If there are some large gaps, fill it will a wood filler to match and sand.

Without vacuum pressing this, it's highly unlikely you will get no visible gaps screwing the Colorfin to the spray lacquer top. The lacquered and Colorfin surfaces are not absolutely flat and you will get gaps.

You could also use some epoxy with filler and color/pigment match to fill the gaps. There will be squeeze out and you will have to sand the surfaces to get a good bond.

If you use the Titebond melamine glue or the Roo glue, one surface will need to be sanded to bare wood to create a porous surface to get the glue to bond.

You could use contact cement but you will see the glue line after you mill and it doesn't fill gaps effectively and there is some creep.

You could also use some epoxy with filler and color/pigment match to fill the gaps. There will be squeeze out and you will have to sand the surfaces to get a good bond.

...as well as something that would not expand/squirt out onto the edge itself.

There may be other ways to approach this but depending on your order of operations I don't see why you wouldn't be able to remove any glue squeeze out with the router.  Typically you would apply a roughly (within 1/8") cut laminate to the finished sized top and then trim the edge with any glue squeeze out.

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 529
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2015, 03:55 PM »
Maybe with those non porous materiL you would be better off going with a construction adhesive type product instead of a wood glue. There's a product called Guenthers which is hard to find but sold by alot of mirror and glass shops. I could stick your face to your rear end with that stuff and you'd be smelling your butt for the rest of your days  [eek]   [scared]  ???.

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2015, 07:57 PM »
Thanks for the replies. Was just looking at fast caps p2-10, which seems like it would work. Anyone use this?
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2015, 07:59 PM »
You sure is that the underside of the table near the edge has a large bevel, so I can only screw in near the middle of the table. Which is why I wanted to have some glue to tighten down the edges.


but I also wanted to glue down the edges so there are no visible gaps between the old top and the new.

Why?
Just screw it to the top and leave it at that. If there are some large gaps, fill it will a wood filler to match and sand.

Without vacuum pressing this, it's highly unlikely you will get no visible gaps screwing the Colorfin to the spray lacquer top. The lacquered and Colorfin surfaces are not absolutely flat and you will get gaps.

You could also use some epoxy with filler and color/pigment match to fill the gaps. There will be squeeze out and you will have to sand the surfaces to get a good bond.

If you use the Titebond melamine glue or the Roo glue, one surface will need to be sanded to bare wood to create a porous surface to get the glue to bond.

You could use contact cement but you will see the glue line after you mill and it doesn't fill gaps effectively and there is some creep.

You could also use some epoxy with filler and color/pigment match to fill the gaps. There will be squeeze out and you will have to sand the surfaces to get a good bond.

...as well as something that would not expand/squirt out onto the edge itself.

There may be other ways to approach this but depending on your order of operations I don't see why you wouldn't be able to remove any glue squeeze out with the router.  Typically you would apply a roughly (within 1/8") cut laminate to the finished sized top and then trim the edge with any glue squeeze out.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4836
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 08:37 PM »
Thanks for the replies. Was just looking at fast caps p2-10, which seems like it would work. Anyone use this?

To brittle to do much good.

Tom

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3424
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2015, 08:47 PM »
Thanks for the replies. Was just looking at fast caps p2-10, which seems like it would work. Anyone use this?

Yes I use it all the time. I agree with Tom it is a very brittle glue, any flex breaks the bond.
It dries fast so you won't have a lot of working time. You can add the debonder to slow the curing time, but it weakens the bond.

Tim

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3424
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2015, 09:11 PM »
You sure is that the underside of the table near the edge has a large bevel, so I can only screw in near the middle of the table. Which is why I wanted to have some glue to tighten down the edges.

Screws counter sunk close to the bottom edge of the bevel will hold it down and won't be seen. Otherwise you will need a lot of clamps and cauls to avoid gaps if you use glue.
Tim
Tim

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4836
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2015, 09:52 PM »
The 2 glues I linked are designed specifically for melamine. Nothing else sticks to it well if at all.

Tom

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 07:28 AM »
Got it.  Thanks.

The 2 glues I linked are designed specifically for melamine. Nothing else sticks to it well if at all.

Tom
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 2948
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2015, 10:25 AM »
Just a heads-up @Edward A Reno III,
I read the link that Tom posted for the Titebond Melamine, and they recommend the following:

Required clamping pressure:
Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 30-80 psi for HPL,100-150 psi for softwoods,125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)

So if you're heading in that direction, which probably makes the most sense, be sure you have enough clamps and cauls on hand for the table.

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4836
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2015, 01:10 PM »
I believe the screws he is using to join the pieces will exert enough pressure.

Tom

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2015, 01:27 PM »
Understood.  Thanks.

Just a heads-up @Edward A Reno III,
I read the link that Tom posted for the Titebond Melamine, and they recommend the following:

Required clamping pressure:
Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 30-80 psi for HPL,100-150 psi for softwoods,125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)

So if you're heading in that direction, which probably makes the most sense, be sure you have enough clamps and cauls on hand for the table.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3424
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2015, 02:23 PM »
So, what happened?
Did you get to do/finish this.
Curious as to how you solved the issues.
Tim

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2015, 04:11 PM »
@Tim Raleigh  Thanks for asking!  I went with the Roo glue.  Finished it up the final of the three tables this Saturday.  I ended up using a combination of glue and screws along the edge, since as you predicted, there were still some gaps once I put on the spring clamps.  But by moving from point to point with the Festool quick clamp and some Spax screws along the edge, I was able to eliminate all the gaps.  I don't have any photos of the final finished product, but here's some process photos (taken right before I figured out the quick clamp solution) 

232901-0

232903-1




So, what happened?
Did you get to do/finish this.
Curious as to how you solved the issues.
Tim
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3424
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2015, 05:22 PM »
I don't have any photos of the final finished product, but here's some process photos (taken right before I figured out the quick clamp solution) 

Looks good.
Tim

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2016, 05:20 PM »
Resurrecting this thread because I just got a call from the people for whom I did the work to say they had a bad accident that messed up one of the melamine boards on the end of one of the tables (nothing to do with my work), and that they're wondering if I can come back to replace it with a new one.

I provisionally said yes, but I'm wondering what I'm walking into, as I've never had to do this sort of surgical repair/rehab with this kind of adhesive.

So...I ended up securing the melamine ply using a combination of screws coming up from underneath, and then the ROO Glue melamine adhesive that was suggested to me.  Obviously I can take out the screws, but how resilient will the adhesive be?  I'm thinking it won't be that bad because the substrate of the table underneath is plywood painted with a high gloss white finish.  So as I'm prying/lifting the Melamine off, it shouldn't take off chunks like if it were affixed to bare wood.

Any thoughts from the original respondents to the thread,  @Tim Raleigh or @tjbnwi or anyone else for that matter?  And any suggestions on best practices/tools for prying off the Melamine?  I figure I'll bring along my RAS to take off any adhesive that remains stuck to the table.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4836
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2016, 06:38 PM »
Remove screws, this is where the glue will be holding the strongest.

Insert a putty knife between the panels to get a feel of what you're up against. Heating the knife may help. Piano wire will be an option.

A block of wood along the edge of the melamine panel, a hard sharp rap with a dead blow hammer. If you try this get some moving planet rubber bands to wrap around the top. Last thing you want to find out this worked as the piece goes through a wall.

Get back to us once you give it a try.

Tom

Offline Spiff

  • Posts: 107
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2016, 06:58 PM »
FYI
For small area repairs I've found MitreBond two part cyanoacrylate adhesive to be superb.  It bonds solid within seconds!!  Most impressive, for a wide range of uses.

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2016, 08:22 PM »
Good advice.  Thanks @tjbnwi I especially like the piano wire trick!

Remove screws, this is where the glue will be holding the strongest.

Insert a putty knife between the panels to get a feel of what you're up against. Heating the knife may help. Piano wire will be an option.

A block of wood along the edge of the melamine panel, a hard sharp rap with a dead blow hammer. If you try this get some moving planet rubber bands to wrap around the top. Last thing you want to find out this worked as the piece goes through a wall.

Get back to us once you give it a try.

Tom
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3424
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2016, 11:01 AM »

Any thoughts from the original respondents to the thread,  @Tim Raleigh or @tjbnwi or anyone else for that matter?  And any suggestions on best practices/tools for prying off the Melamine?  I figure I'll bring along my RAS to take off any adhesive that remains stuck to the table.

Along with or in tandem with Tom's suggestion, I would heat the melamine with a hair dryer or even a heat blanket. You will need to keep the panel quite warm for a while to penetrate the wood and into the glue. It should soften the glue to weaken the bond enough that you shouldn't have too many pieces stuck to the original substrate. Let us know how you get on.
Tim

Online Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2959
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2016, 01:25 PM »
Thanks Tim.


Any thoughts from the original respondents to the thread,  @Tim Raleigh or @tjbnwi or anyone else for that matter?  And any suggestions on best practices/tools for prying off the Melamine?  I figure I'll bring along my RAS to take off any adhesive that remains stuck to the table.

Along with or in tandem with Tom's suggestion, I would heat the melamine with a hair dryer or even a heat blanket. You will need to keep the panel quite warm for a while to penetrate the wood and into the glue. It should soften the glue to weaken the bond enough that you shouldn't have too many pieces stuck to the original substrate. Let us know how you get on.
Tim
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline mwahaha

  • Posts: 110
Re: Fast setting glue/adhesive advice
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2016, 04:26 AM »
Be careful, IF the glue is holding strong you can delaminate the ply by prying and you could end up with chunks of ply stuck to melamine and chunks of melamine stuck to ply. If worst comes to worst you could just route the melamine off the ply, wouldn't take that long with a big bit in a 2200 or 1400.

What is the damage?
Makin' chips since ages ago