Author Topic: When SketchUp isn't good enough...  (Read 17013 times)

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Offline ryanjg117

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When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« on: October 01, 2016, 12:00 AM »
You move up to parametric modeling. Here's the model I made of my Festool SYS1 T-LOC systainer, accurate down to ~1mm.











I undertook this effort as a training exercise to learn CAD/CAM. It was quite challenging due to some of the very complicated contours used in the handle and latch, and some shelling issues I had with the main enclosure. I certainly didn't make it the best, or most efficient way, but I'm pretty happy with the outcome.

It also gave me a new-found appreciation for the amount of engineering that went into the construction of these "plastic boxes." The attention to detail is very German. 

Now, it won't take much time at all to model the other sizes of systainers, since they all share the same footprint (just different enclosure heights and some small modifications to the housing.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 12:45 PM by ryanjg117 »
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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2016, 01:57 AM »
Hi Ryan,

That is an amazing "apprentice piece" and quite a challenge no doubt. I suspect the only problem that most FOGgers will encounter is the price of Solidworks which is way beyond my budget. I just stick to 2D work using Draftsight which is completely free and has no adds built in - another great program from Solidworks.

Would the files that you have created allow you (or someone) to produce the design of the moulding needed to produce the systainer?

How long would you estimate the average person would need in order to get to your level of expertise with Solidworks 3D?

Many thanks and again, a brilliant piece of work.

Peter

Offline Cheese

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2016, 09:17 AM »
You move up to SolidWorks. Here's the model I made of my Festool SYS1 T-LOC systainer, accurate down to ~1mm.

Nice job...really well done. The level of detail that you've included is impressive.  [thumbs up]

After an exercise like this, you really have a better appreciation for the amount of work that's needed to properly injection mold any plastic item.

Just curious if Solidworks is capable of turning the final part design (what you have), into the injection mold cavity/force design by compensating for material shrink factors and adding the proper draft angles and fillets?

Offline neilc

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2016, 09:25 AM »
Ryan, that is Awesome work!

Peter, agree on the cost of high end design tools  We now have access to Fusion 360 which is free to makers and hobbiests under Autodesk license.  It will import Solidworks files and has many of the capabilities.  Rendering is excellent.  Maybe a notch below Solidworks but very capable.

Check it out for a really well done cad, cam, design, and rendering program.  Mac, Windows design capabilities.  View, markup and share on iOS or Android.

Thanks for sharing.  How many hours in the model?!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 09:27 AM by neilc »

Offline ryanjg117

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2016, 02:15 PM »
You move up to SolidWorks. Here's the model I made of my Festool SYS1 T-LOC systainer, accurate down to ~1mm.

Just curious if Solidworks is capable of turning the final part design (what you have), into the injection mold cavity/force design by compensating for material shrink factors and adding the proper draft angles and fillets?

I think SolidWorks has an entire suite of tools dedicated to mold-making, which I haven't gotten into at all. That's mechanical engineer territory, and my interest here was mainly to model it as close as possible. I'm not quite sure if it could be used to make an actual mold, but it would be fun to test out.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2016, 02:31 PM »
How long did it take to learn this skill? I've been using CAD as just another layout tool for 20 years and I'm still a novice, nowhere near able to do what you've done. I never sat down and committed to serious study.

Offline #Tee

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2016, 03:09 PM »
very nice! in some angles the latch looks better than real life.
When youre feeling depressed just treat yourself to a systainer even if its a mini systainer its ok.

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Offline greg mann

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2016, 03:46 PM »
A very useful module of Solidworks is 'EDrawings'. A solidworks model can be sent to anyone along with a viewer that will enable them to open the model without actually having a Solidworks program or license. I can view models on my iPhone with EDrawings, rotate, section views, select components and even measure features with the built in tools that come with the app. All manner of CAD tools are built in. It is totally free and very powerful and robust. It would be a great sales tool to be able to give a solid rendering of a pice of furniture or even an entire kitchen to a prospective customer. It can be even be annotated and sent back to the originator.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2016, 03:48 PM »
You have WAY TOO MUCH time on your hands  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin].....but excellent work.

If you haven't done so already, learn about "Configurations" and controlling dimensions for each one. This will allow you to model all of the systainer sizes within a single file/assembly.

Yes, SolidWorks will directly convert this into mold shapes, but it is frequently best to just let the plastic fabrication company make that conversion based on their specific capabilities. They will take the raw SolidWorks files and tailor them for their needs.

If you want to share your assembly with others, there is a website, GrabCAD for sharing models. You can upload the native SW files, but I recommend that you also upload a "Parasolid" export (.x_b OR .x_t) for people like myself that refuse to upgrade to the newest version of SolidWorks. (Parasolid is the best format for SW-to-SW transfer between versions.) I love SolidWorks, but I despise the business practices of the company.

Oh, I just looked. Someone has already done a systainer on GrabCAD, but nowhere near the detail you have done. It was just a poor shape-size model.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2016, 03:52 PM »
P.S. As a long time SW user, when I look at some of those features, all I can think of is how tough some of them were to put in. As a new "learner" you definitely have my respect!

Offline blaszcsj

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2016, 12:07 AM »
Yes it does. Solid works has gold partners that plug in for CNc cam, mold, electrical, pipe and wire, photo generation, etc. use them on a daily basis. Easily the most user friendly cad program on the market.

You move up to SolidWorks. Here's the model I made of my Festool SYS1 T-LOC systainer, accurate down to ~1mm.

Nice job...really well done. The level of detail that you've included is impressive.  [thumbs up]

After an exercise like this, you really have a better appreciation for the amount of work that's needed to properly injection mold any plastic item.

Just curious if Solidworks is capable of turning the final part design (what you have), into the injection mold cavity/force design by compensating for material shrink factors and adding the proper draft angles and fillets?
OF1010 EQ Router | MFT/3 | DF500Q | Carvex 420 | ETS EC 150/3 | CT 36 Auto Clean | TS55 | LR32 | OF1400 EQ Router | ZOBO Metric Set | CXS Li 2.6 - 90 Limited Edition | Universal Cleaning Set | HKC55 | Centrotec CE-SORT |

Offline Cheese

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2016, 09:56 AM »
Yes it does. Solid works has gold partners that plug in for CNc cam, mold, electrical, pipe and wire, photo generation, etc. use them on a daily basis. Easily the most user friendly cad program on the market.

So @blaszcsj if I understand this correctly, you construct the piece part drawing as to how you want to see the finished item, and then you introduce the plug-ins depending upon how you want it to be produced, i.e. CNC'd or injection molded.?

Offline blaszcsj

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2016, 10:09 AM »
@Cheese the third party plug ins essentially expands the basic cad package and allows the various disciplines to operate off the same cad model. In regards to specific manufacturing method, the CNC CAM add ins would Allow the user to port in a CAM package for tool patching and automatically post process for the specific machine.

As far as mold making, the basic cad package would allow you to design the mold. Once you have the part, you can do a simple Boolean operation (generate the negative), add draft, and split it where you want parting lines. The mold plug in is really for mold flow analysis to optimize flow for production operation. This app is usually used by mold design companies and not your average user. The CNC CAM packages are probably the largest purchase of third party plugins for solid works.

The photo suite is built in I believe and some of the higher analysis functions depending on the package level purchased.

Yes it does. Solid works has gold partners that plug in for CNc cam, mold, electrical, pipe and wire, photo generation, etc. use them on a daily basis. Easily the most user friendly cad program on the market.

So @blaszcsj if I understand this correctly, you construct the piece part drawing as to how you want to see the finished item, and then you introduce the plug-ins depending upon how you want it to be produced, i.e. CNC'd or injection molded.?
OF1010 EQ Router | MFT/3 | DF500Q | Carvex 420 | ETS EC 150/3 | CT 36 Auto Clean | TS55 | LR32 | OF1400 EQ Router | ZOBO Metric Set | CXS Li 2.6 - 90 Limited Edition | Universal Cleaning Set | HKC55 | Centrotec CE-SORT |

Offline Cheese

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2016, 11:13 AM »
The mold plug in is really for mold flow analysis to optimize flow for production operation. This app is usually used by mold design companies and not your average user. 

Gotcha..thanks for the info....I'm familiar with Moldflow and used it when it was still an Australian owned company, before they were acquired by Autodesk. They were the first to produce software for mold flow analysis.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 11:15 AM by Cheese »

Offline ryanjg117

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2016, 05:20 PM »
Finished the SYS5 based on the SYS1 - there were actually quite a few distinctions here and it took me more work than I expected. The front feet are different, there's additional ribs on the inside of the enclosure, and SYS2 through SYS5 include the support bracket from the factory (which is a huge PITA to remove, by the way... almost broke the case to get it out).






Going to work on SYS2 through SYS4 next (they'll be very quick), and then move onto SYS-AZ drawers. My ultimate goal is to have a fully-functioning custom SYSPORT. I'll have spent more time modeling than woodworking.  [blink]
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2016, 07:19 PM »
Finished the SYS5 based on the SYS1 - there were actually quite a few distinctions here and it took me more work than I expected. The front feet are different, there's additional ribs on the inside of the enclosure, and SYS2 through SYS5 include the support bracket from the factory (which is a huge PITA to remove, by the way... almost broke the case to get it out).


Well, the bad news is that is the old support bracket, there is a new one so you'll have to update your models. [tongue]
 Check out this thread in the dealers section here on the FOG, UK - New strengthening bar in Systainers?
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline duburban

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2016, 07:26 PM »
Anyone use rhino? I love it
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline TSO Products

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2016, 09:25 PM »
As one who has been relying on SolidWorks for our designs, including the both GRS-16 Guide Rail Squares,  agree that modeling the SYSTAINERS as a reverse engineering exercise is quite impressive - very well done! Since this thread is into the design of our tools this is probably the right opportunity to point out the enormous complexity not to mention the complexity and huge cost of the injection molds. The industrial designers were turned loose with a serious commitment of capital to see the product development through. And then came the replacement of the design with the TL version.

After the tools are done  and function as intended, there is then more than the average level of manufacturing skill required to mold parts with walls this thin which are expected too mate with the lids

The tooling complexity/cost also explains to me why it has not been duplicated here in the US. More economical to suffer the shipping and logistic expense of exporting from Germany.

For anyone interested in non-commercial use of a serious CAD software package:
SolidWorks is available as a free MAKE version including some finite element analysis. If there is interest by the FOG I will post details for US access to the free version.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline dodong

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2016, 10:28 PM »
For anyone interested in non-commercial use of a serious CAD software package:
SolidWorks is available as a free MAKE version including some finite element analysis. If there is interest by the FOG I will post details for US access to the free version.

Hans

Yes, please do.

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2016, 10:36 PM »
Nice work. It's been many, many years since I've done anything in 3DS MAX or similar software. I can't say that I ever got to the point where I had any level of expertise. I worked with guys who used Solidworks and other software who had some pretty serious skills. Your models are spot on and well done, congrats.
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Offline CarolinaNomad

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2016, 10:41 PM »

For anyone interested in non-commercial use of a serious CAD software package:
SolidWorks is available as a free MAKE version including some finite element analysis. If there is interest by the FOG I will post details for US access to the free version.

Hans

I'm intersted
Jeff
resides in NAINA

Offline Cheese

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2016, 12:47 AM »
Since this thread is into the design of our tools this is probably the right opportunity to point out the enormous complexity not to mention the complexity and huge cost of the injection molds.

The tooling complexity/cost also explains to me why it has not been duplicated here in the US. More economical to suffer the shipping and logistic expense of exporting from Germany.

To kind of put this discussion into perspective, over 40 years ago, without the use of CAD, it took our tooling group 6 months to design a 16 cavity mold for VHS windows for VHS cassettes. We then subbed the mold build out to Caco Pacific in California at a price of $250K with a delivery date of 5-6 months. This is the equivalent of over $900K (for 1 mold that produced 16 parts per cycle) in todays dollars. Then, mold de-bug and cavity/core tweaking along with final part qualification and acceptance evaluation took another 2 months.

For all of these reasons, Hans @TSO Products has it right when he states it is more economical to just leave the tool (the mold) where it is, produce qualified/certified parts and suffer the shipping costs. If the tool is moved to a different location to run production parts, it has to be requalified/certified and that will be 4-6 weeks minimum and in all likelihood will be much...much longer than that.

In the qualification process, injection molds are assigned to a particular injection molding press and all of the injection molding press/injection mold parameters are recorded so that it is easy to reinstall the mold and start squirting plastic parts as rapidly as possible, however, if the mold cannot be installed in the same press for some reason, then the qualification process is restarted from step 1. This becomes very painful.

I liken molding parts to be the equivalent of baking. When cooking, you can add a little bit of this or a little bit of that, when baking...you follow the recipe exactly and weigh the ingredients.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 01:16 AM by Cheese »

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2016, 07:23 AM »
For anyone interested in non-commercial use of a serious CAD software package:
SolidWorks is available as a free MAKE version including some finite element analysis. If there is interest by the FOG I will post details for US access to the free version.

Hans

I'm intersted. @TSO Products
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2016, 04:06 PM »
For anyone interested in non-commercial use of a serious CAD software package:
SolidWorks is available as a free MAKE version including some finite element analysis. If there is interest by the FOG I will post details for US access to the free version.

Hans

Yes, even I would be interested in it. Even though I refuse to upgrade to the newest version of SolidWorks due to their unscrupulous business practices, I do frequently need to translate models from my customers (including you/TSO) created in newer versions. If this free version would permit me to open and export a newer version back to my older version, then it would come in very handy.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2016, 04:58 PM »
I wrote: For anyone interested in non-commercial use of a serious CAD software package:
SolidWorks is available as a free MAKE/Student version including some finite element analysis. If there is interest by the FOG I will post details for US access to the free version.

here is more regarding access to a free version of SolidWorks:

a US based international membership organization, EAA, the EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION  (aircraft homebuilders and sport aviation participants and enthusiasts) has entered into an arrangement with SolidWorks to provide free access to SolidWorks Student edition for EAA Members
Here is a link listing what the Engineering edition provides: https://www.solidworks.com/sw/docs/Student_Access_Product_Matrix_LB.pdf

To be eligible for free SolidWorks Download you need to be or become a current dues paid member of EAA.org annual dues $ 40.00
Use of the software is strictly limited to non-commercial use. You can't use it to produce work which you sell for profit.

Disccussions between SolidWorks and EAA are currently ongoing to expand the available modules in the Engineering Edition to include FEA (Finite Element Analysis) and more - refer to the Product Matrix link above for more details.

GIven the inteest in this subject by a number of FOG members who have emailed or messaged me, I will update this information as I develop more infomration. This is not vague idea or future proposal, it is a program that is already working with some 1,700 (!) EAA members to-date having downloaded their free SolidWorks software.
EAA continues to be a hotbed for innovation in the aviation space. For those of you not familiar with this 200,000 member international organization, this movement has given birth to the origins of the round-the-world, non-stop and non-refueled VOYAGER designed by Burt Rutan, and innovative aircraft like the CIRRUS line of high performance aircraft as well as the line of some 9,000 flying  homebuilt aircraft of the RV design line. All made possible by the freedom to design, build and fly airplanes which are not burdened by the regulatory constraints of certificated aircraft.

More to follow as I obtain more details.
I'll be glad to provide more specifics if the Moderators think this is the right place for it.

Hans

TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline ryanjg117

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2016, 12:20 AM »
The SYS family is complete  8):

Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2016, 12:21 AM »
Amazing work Ryan!

Offline SereN

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2016, 01:48 AM »
The SYS family is complete  8):



Ryan, nice work. Do you mind sharing the models in STEP format? (I'm using Autodesk Inventor myself)

Offline ryanjg117

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2016, 03:54 PM »
Just finished the SYS-AZ drawers -- every bit as complicated as the systainers themselves:



And a few close-ups of some of the more interesting components:



Final step is to put them into the sysport cabinet model - coming soon. :-)
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline TSO Products

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Re: When SketchUp isn't good enough...
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2016, 03:04 PM »
I wrote: For anyone interested in non-commercial use of a serious CAD software package:
SolidWorks is available as a free MAKE/Student version including some finite element analysis. If there is interest by the FOG I will post details for US access to the free version.

here is more regarding access to a free version of SolidWorks:

a US based international membership organization, EAA, the EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION  (aircraft homebuilders and sport aviation participants and enthusiasts) has entered into an arrangement with SolidWorks to provide free access to SolidWorks Student edition for EAA Members
Here is a link listing what the Engineering edition provides: https://www.solidworks.com/sw/docs/Student_Access_Product_Matrix_LB.pdf

To be eligible for free SolidWorks Download you need to be or become a current dues paid member of EAA.org annual dues $ 40.00
Use of the software is strictly limited to non-commercial use. You can't use it to produce work which you sell for profit.

Disccussions between SolidWorks and EAA are currently ongoing to expand the available modules in the Engineering Edition to include FEA (Finite Element Analysis) and more - refer to the Product Matrix link above for more details.

GIven the inteest in this subject by a number of FOG members who have emailed or messaged me, I will update this information as I develop more infomration. This is not vague idea or future proposal, it is a program that is already working with some 1,700 (!) EAA members to-date having downloaded their free SolidWorks software.
EAA continues to be a hotbed for innovation in the aviation space. For those of you not familiar with this 200,000 member international organization, this movement has given birth to the origins of the round-the-world, non-stop and non-refueled VOYAGER designed by Burt Rutan, and innovative aircraft like the CIRRUS line of high performance aircraft as well as the line of some 9,000 flying  homebuilt aircraft of the RV design line. All made possible by the freedom to design, build and fly airplanes which are not burdened by the regulatory constraints of certificated aircraft.

More to follow as I obtain more details.
I'll be glad to provide more specifics if the Moderators think this is the right place for it.

Hans

here is a summary of how to gain access to a free SolidWorks seat for non-commercial use by joining EAA for $ 40.00/year. It will take SolidWorks a bit of time to send you your login after signup to allow to verify that you have a current EAA membership in good standing. SW keeps a tight grip ..
Not sure if the links will come through as hyperlinks but you'll see all that when you sign up for EAA membership.EAA Members have access to SolidWorks Student Design Kit - EAA Maker Edition at no charge. Information about what modules are included in the Student Design Kit can be found in this document which is linked in the SOLIDWORKS Download area of our SOLIDWORKS Resource Center.

" To join EAA, as an individual ($40/year) or family ($50/year), go to: EAA.org/Join.

To request download instructions for SOLIDWORKS Student Design Kit - EAA Maker Edition, click on the SOLIDWORKS Download link at: EAA.org/SOLIDWORKS

EAA Members have access to SOLIDWORKS Student Design Kit - EAA Maker Edition at no charge. Information about what modules are included in the Student Design Kit can be found in this document which is linked in the SOLIDWORKS Download area of our SOLIDWORKS Resource Center. "

hope this gets you on your way [smile]
Hans



TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions