Author Topic: Systainer Design Weak Point ??  (Read 3340 times)

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Offline Dick Mahany

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Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« on: December 10, 2018, 05:41 PM »
I've read a few posts on the FOG regarding Systainers that arrived with broken hinges during shipping.  I just joined the club  [sad]

The strange thing is that the shipping box had no signs of damage and the Systainer itself appeared well packed in the box.  I'm just wondering if there might be an inherent weakness with the hinge design if it can break so easily, or whether UPS has some sort new stealth technology to destroy package contents without being obvious?



« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 05:48 PM by Dick Mahany »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 06:46 PM »
There are 10's of thousands or more of Systainers out in the wild.  Obviously there are some broken ones but we usually hear here about shipping damage or cold weather damage.

Just my observations.

Peter

Offline Farming_Sawyer

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 09:14 PM »
Maybe the blue color? One of my new blues broke at the same place during shipping.
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Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 09:24 PM »
could always be something like a failure of de-burring in manufacturing. If some flash from the molding doesn't get cleared it might cause a binding in the hinge and now you have a big lever, not a hinge, snap the joint pretty easy.  Or even just how the parts got popped together, joe/jane six pack at the factory may not pop them together just right every time.

For sure systainers aren't super rugged, but it's the balance of weight/cost verses indestructibility.  I haven't been around a ton of them, My collection is very small, but just playing with them in stores, it's almost as if they vary from unit to unit as to how stiff one is.  Some of them feel flexy/floppy, others feel robust, for the exact same systainer model.

Offline vkumar

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 09:37 PM »
Maybe the blue color? One of my new blues broke at the same place during shipping.

Possibly the blue color is causing flow problems and there  is a  knit line that is weak.  The knit line (where 2 flows of molten plastic meet) will always be present, perhaps the blue color is harder to melt and is flowing colder causing a weak knit line. Just a speculation.

Vijay
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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 09:51 PM »
I too had a Blue Systainer damaged in shipment.  I have more systainers than I will admit to my wife, more than half have been shipped to me.  This is the first one with any damage.  Only one systainer has sustained any damage during use, in that instance it was operator error (my nephew did not 'get it' and forced a Sys2 apart from the Sortainer it was attached to...)

Like others, there was no unusual damage to the carton.  But... it was only wrapped with one layer of bubble wrap around only four sides.  Fortunately it does not affect the operation of the Systainer and the kind folks at ToolNut took care of me!

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Online Cheese

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 12:51 AM »
Possibly the blue color is causing flow problems and there  is a  knit line that is weak.  The knit line (where 2 flows of molten plastic meet) will always be present, perhaps the blue color is harder to melt and is flowing colder causing a weak knit line. Just a speculation.

Spoken like a guy who’s had injection molding experience.  [big grin]   [big grin]

As Vijay explains, you’ll always have knit lines around cored holes because the plastic is forced to race around each side of the core pin and then once the 2 fronts of plastic reach one another, there has to be enough residual heat in the mold and in the melt to once again become a homogeneous material, otherwise weak knit lines can be the result.

Maybe they’re running the mold at a lower temp than normal because of possible color degradation?

Seems strange that suddenly on just blue Systainers these hinge pin hole issues raise their heads.

I’ll check my new “blues” tomorrow and see if I have any issues.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 10:06 AM by Cheese »

Offline Don T

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 01:08 AM »
It is very strange since this is not the first time blue systainers have been made. Several years ago the FOG gainers were made in blue. And more recently the anniversary systainer was also blue. Maybe just a bad batch due to improper temperatures as already noted.
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Offline bigjonh

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2018, 06:59 AM »
I bought a couple blue cooltainers a few years back and they def are weaker with daily use they are way more busted up then the others

Offline Gregor

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 08:21 AM »
I havn't looked how the weather is where you live, but in case it's currently cold: all damages (sans seting the wrong depth for a TS cut) to my systainers happened at low ambient temperature - plastic loses flexibility and gets brittle when it's cold, that's something we'll have to live with... mechanical impacts that it'll sustain without problems at normal room temperature can lead to cracks when it had been sitting in the cold (like a shipping warehouse or an unheated van) and is then exposed to the usual todays treatment for parcels (throw the stuff around).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 08:24 AM by Gregor »

Offline Dick Mahany

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 08:59 AM »
I havn't looked how the weather is where you live, but in case it's currently cold: all damages (sans seting the wrong depth for a TS cut) to my systainers happened at low ambient temperature - plastic loses flexibility and gets brittle when it's cold, that's something we'll have to live with... mechanical impacts that it'll sustain without problems at normal room temperature can lead to cracks when it had been sitting in the cold (like a shipping warehouse or an unheated van) and is then exposed to the usual todays treatment for parcels (throw the stuff around).

My area is the southern California desert, nights around 10*C and daytime temps 24*C so in this case it probably isn't due to local temperature.  It did ship from an area where the weather was much colder though, so temp may have been a factor.

Thanks all for the replies it is interesting to note that this may be more than just an isolated case.


Offline ColossusX

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 04:47 PM »
I have an orange one that had the same exact damage that I ordered in the summer.  It was boxed in a stack of 5, this one was second from the top and the only one out an 11 unit order from the UK to the US to be damaged

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 05:28 PM »
Systainers are not made of kevlar.  They also are not made like the blow molded cases of varying sizes that seem to come with so many power tools now.  Yes they can be broken.  i can also note that the blue ones can be melted on the stove.  I haven't tried the regular ones or any other color though.

Peter

Online Cheese

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 05:44 PM »
They also are NOT made like the blow molded cases of varying sizes that seem to come with so many power tools now.

And that’s a good thing.  [big grin]  I currently own only 2 blow molded cases. One for a Milwaukee mag drill and one for a Milwaukee 8 1/4” metal cutting saw. All other blow molded cases have been punted down the road...good riddance.

Offline Dick Mahany

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2018, 06:06 PM »

.........  i can also note that the blue ones can be melted on the stove..............
Peter

How do you know this ?  [eek] [laughing]

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2018, 07:02 PM »

.........  i can also note that the blue ones can be melted on the stove..............
Peter

How do you know this ?  [eek] [laughing]

Stupidity.

Offline greg mann

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2018, 08:14 PM »

.........  i can also note that the blue ones can be melted on the stove..............
Peter

How do you know this ?  [eek] [laughing]

Stupidity.

Stupidity converted to knowledge.  [poke]
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Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 08:20 PM »
They also are NOT made like the blow molded cases of varying sizes that seem to come with so many power tools now.

And that’s a good thing.  [big grin]  I currently own only 2 blow molded cases. One for a Milwaukee mag drill and one for a Milwaukee 8 1/4” metal cutting saw. All other blow molded cases have been punted down the road...good riddance.

At least they had cases, it bothers me more the ones that don't, so many of there tools now don't have them.  I just wish Milwaukee had standardized the shape some on them years ago.  They didn't need full blow systainer, just have common footprint that interlocks.  Of course had they done that the world would never know the sound of a Milwaukee jenga stack fall.

Online Cheese

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2018, 12:02 AM »
At least they had cases, it bothers me more the ones that don't, so many of there tools now don't have them.

Ahhh, but they did have great case options at the time...it was called optional steel cases for their equipment. A true thing of beauty. That’s the reason I was able to punt those goofy blow molded cases down the road. A true alternative to the “last weeks left over bad news” of blow molded cases.

Those red steel cases produced the first “wall of red”. Which converted into current terms, would be the equivalent of today’s “wall of lime green”.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 12:12 AM by Cheese »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2018, 12:31 AM »
At least they had cases, it bothers me more the ones that don't, so many of there tools now don't have them.

Ahhh, but they did have great case options at the time...it was called optional steel cases for their equipment. A true thing of beauty. That’s the reason I was able to punt those goofy blow molded cases down the road. A true alternative to the “last weeks left over bad news” of blow molded cases.

I have their beam saw with the steel case, I use it to hold the house down in event of tornado.  I'm not a huge fan, it's just heavy. Father had many of the steel cases.  They are just heavy and don't work well, can't be stacked, rust, dent, etc. 

I'd like to see their "pack-out" stuff be less mythical.  Actually be something in stores, and have a tool where you put in your current tool and it pulls up an insert that goes with it for a pack out. I might then order some.  At least with Systainers you can find out a fair bit on them online, and go to a festool dealer and see them.  Not sure how one sees pack out. Be nice if the tools they sold with cases since introduction of it at least came in pack-out but they still keep selling them in random blow molded if they come with a case at all.

Offline Svar

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2018, 01:04 AM »
They are just heavy and don't work well, can't be stacked, rust, dent, etc. 
Exactly. I'll take blow molded over steel case any day.

Online Cheese

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2018, 02:57 AM »
Exactly. I'll take blow molded over steel case any day.

Had I known, I would have shipped you every one of those turds 💩 I threw in the garbage. On my dime by the way.

Offline Svar

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2018, 12:00 PM »
Had I known, I would have shipped you every one of those turds 💩 I threw in the garbage. On my dime by the way.
You should always properly recycle them ... to manufacture more blow molded cases.

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 01:56 PM »
Ive had that happen to both the black Tanos versions and the standard light grey ones just from being shipped to me. I read all the time on here about how much people love Systainers and how tough they are, but from the very first time I laid my hands on one years ago up to today, I still think they are flimsy plastic cases with some nice organizational and space wasting properties. That said, I love how much you can get from selling them!
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Online Cheese

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 12:05 PM »
Had I known, I would have shipped you every one of those turds 💩 I threw in the garbage. On my dime by the way.
You should always properly recycle them ... to manufacture MORE blow molded cases.

LOL...

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2018, 12:10 PM »
I hate the blow molded polyethylene cases as well. Besides the huge volume of wasted space the material is just too slippery. A stack of the things is just a cascade waiting to happen.

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2019, 09:12 PM »
The issue is  that Festool made these Systainers cheaper.  I did a couple test.  The new promo Systainers are 40 grams lighter versus the normal Systainers.  That the equivalent of 27-28 5mm dominos.  The Systainers were made with less material making them lighter and cheaper.  The new Systainers have a cheap feel to them,  being that they are lighter less material was used resulting in more chips and cracks.  Don’t believe me,  grab a digital scale and weight your normal t-loc compared to the new promo Systainer. 

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2019, 09:53 PM »
Ahhh - shipping damage! -
we learned a few things over the years.

As a result TSO designed a custom made, tight fitting SYSTAINER shipping box adding all around stiffness to the unitized shipment (contents and packaging) while protecting the SYSTAINER.  No secondary internal collisions possible. As a result our Sky Blue TSO SYSTAINERS ship well.

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Offline RustE

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2019, 11:54 PM »
...The new promo Systainers are 40 grams lighter versus the normal Systainers...

Did your ‘normal Systainer’ sample have a bar across the back between the hinge pins?

The promotional blue Festool Systainer seems to be about the same build as the orange Fein Systainer.

Offline Dick Mahany

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Re: Systainer Design Weak Point ??
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2019, 08:32 AM »
...The new promo Systainers are 40 grams lighter versus the normal Systainers...

Did your ‘normal Systainer’ sample have a bar across the back between the hinge pins?

The promotional blue Festool Systainer seems to be about the same build as the orange Fein Systainer.

My Special Edition Blue Systainer did NOT have the bar across the upper rear side side.  Nor did it have the vertical webs that support it.  On all of my Festool Sys 2s to date, almost all do have that reinforcing bar and vertical webs.  In contrast, the Tanos branded Sys 2s that I have don't have them either.  It would be interesting to compare the blue Sys 2 against a Tanos Sys 2 for weight comparison.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 09:37 AM by Dick Mahany »