Author Topic: 3 projects for a nubie  (Read 3608 times)

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Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
3 projects for a nubie
« on: March 06, 2017, 11:41 AM »
Hello,

I am new to this forum and new to Festool. 

I am almost there in terms of setting up my shop and have three projects planed once I am done:

1.  I have a house with thin, steel rod balusters.  I will try to post a photo.  Over the years a little surface rust has formed on the balusters.  My dog, Manny, a large St. Bernard, is probably responsible.  Does it make sense to use fine steel wool to clean them?  What more or less could I do?  What, if anything should I put on them to delay rust forming on them? 

2. I have maple wood floor with a clear water based poly finish.  Dirt and grim has formed in the kitchen where the counters and the floor meet.  The trim molding needs a new paint job so I need to clear them up before painting the moldings.  For the dirt and grim on the floor, has anyone ever used a RO 90 with a polishing pad/sponge or a high grit plantin sand paper?  If so, how did it go?  Am I crazy to try?

3. I have a large number of drawer faces in bathrooms and the kitchen (roughly 50).  The originals are a high quality maple veneer finished with, I think, a clear oil-based poly.  The faces have in a few cases been damaged by water and time.  My issues are (i) is this an all or nothing project or, in other words, given the typical yellowing of the oil based poly, do I have to replace everything in the room at the same time?, (ii) given that the faces screw on to the boxes, do folks think that I can cut these (I have a Festool 55 but not the parallel guides, although I could buy one), (iii) if the project is all of the faces or none, should I stick with oil based poly (likely to get a shop to do them if it I stick with poly) or should I go with wax or something else (I'd be happy to re-wax annually). 








« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 05:24 PM by Pvon »

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Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2017, 01:54 PM »
[ 1]You can use fine steel wool, Vlies from Festool, or other 3M type abrasive on them. Once cleaned of the rust, wipe the metal down with Denatured Alcohol and then clear coat it with a clear film finish to help prevent oxidation or rust from coming back.
[2]  While it's fun to buy or drag new tools out for a job, this once sounds more like some soapy water and a small Nylon brush is the way to go.
[3] Your call almost-  How damaged are some of the faces?  Gouges into the wood below the finish, or just the finish is damaged?
 Sanding that many drawer fronts can take some time, but if you're careful not to sand through the veneer face wood, you could then refinish them to your liking.
 A water based finish is much less likely to yellow over time, dries quickly so more than one coat could be applied in a day, and low odor if you're living with 50 drawer fronts in various stages of curing once you've started the project.....
Are the fronts plain flat, or is there detail to them?
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 02:52 PM »
Thanks.

Re (iii), the drawer fronts are flat but the ones that are gone are too far gone to refinish.  My problem is that they have to match and if they do not, it will ruin the look of the kitchen.   I will try to post a picture later so you and others can see. 

Re (ii), so far a brush isn't doing the job.  Very fine steel wool works but it is very labor intensive. 

Re (i), thanks for the heads up.


Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2017, 03:18 PM »
Thanks.

Re (iii), the drawer fronts are flat but the ones that are gone are too far gone to refinish.  My problem is that they have to match and if they do not, it will ruin the look of the kitchen.   I will try to post a picture later so you and others can see. 

Re (ii), so far a brush isn't doing the job.  Very fine steel wool works but it is very labor intensive. 

Re (i), thanks for the heads up.
  Do you have that RO90 that you asked about?  If so, you could use it dry with a Vlies abrasive disc and gently work the grime that way. Either use a pad protector ring to keep away from the kickplate/toe plate of the lower cabinet or put Blue Painters tape in the area where you might make contact to keep the rubbing to a minimum.
I now get it about the Drawer fronts matching.
 also, I forgot to ask-  is that rusting steel railing painted? if it is, forget the clear film finish and just clean and repaint.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3460
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2017, 04:30 PM »
[ 1]You can use fine steel wool, Vlies from Festool, or other 3M type abrasive on them. Once cleaned of the rust, wipe the metal down with Denatured Alcohol and then clear coat it with a clear film finish to help prevent oxidation or rust from coming back.
...

Some gun shops sell gun blue. It still makes sense to clear cost it, but it does darken the iron.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1613
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2017, 10:32 PM »
On the drawer fronts, it is possible to match old finishes, regardless of yellowing. I'd try some test pieces to determine if you can get close enough with various light stains that you wouldn't notice. I think it's possible but it would require some patience and the willingness to take some time for testing it out as many times as it takes to match.
Randy

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2017, 07:13 AM »
On the drawer fronts, it is possible to match old finishes, regardless of yellowing. I'd try some test pieces to determine if you can get close enough with various light stains that you wouldn't notice. I think it's possible but it would require some patience and the willingness to take some time for testing it out as many times as it takes to match.
. One of his posts said some of the fronts are damaged into the wood itself and need to be replaced.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1613
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2017, 02:09 PM »
On the drawer fronts, it is possible to match old finishes, regardless of yellowing. I'd try some test pieces to determine if you can get close enough with various light stains that you wouldn't notice. I think it's possible but it would require some patience and the willingness to take some time for testing it out as many times as it takes to match.
. One of his posts said some of the fronts are damaged into the wood itself and need to be replaced.

Maybe then do all new drawer fronts, but they would need to match the cabinet faces then wouldn't they? I still might try to match stain/finish to the faces and determine what kind of adjustment on the new faces is required to match the others (since there are only a few according to him). Seems like, no matter what is done, short of replacement of drawers, doors, and faces, it's a tedious situation and requires testing stain/finish until things match.
Randy

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2017, 03:26 PM »
On the drawer fronts, it is possible to match old finishes, regardless of yellowing. I'd try some test pieces to determine if you can get close enough with various light stains that you wouldn't notice. I think it's possible but it would require some patience and the willingness to take some time for testing it out as many times as it takes to match.
. One of his posts said some of the fronts are damaged into the wood itself and need to be replaced.

Maybe then do all new drawer fronts, but they would need to match the cabinet faces then wouldn't they? I still might try to match stain/finish to the faces and determine what kind of adjustment on the new faces is required to match the others (since there are only a few according to him). Seems like, no matter what is done, short of replacement of drawers, doors, and faces, it's a tedious situation and requires testing stain/finish until things match.
. True- The OP seems resigned to that as well
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 05:36 PM »
Hi everyone,

Lots of thanks for the responses.  Spent my evenings after work making shelves in the garage.  They came out well.  My wife is even impressed. 

I cleaned the metals rails with fine steel wool--worked well but have not applied anything yet to preserve the rods. 

I added 2 pictures (what a hassle) of the kitchen cabinets to give folks a sense of the project.  Same issue in 4 bathrooms. 

I really hate (after a few tries to do the banding).  I'm also considering just using real wood (clear maple) instead of veneer (unless someone around Westchester county in New York wants to contact me that is really good at banding or you guys convince me that wood would be a bad idea. 

Also, in terms of finish, I hear folks in Europe are using clear waxes to finish wood even in kitchen and bathrooms.  Any one here with any views?

To recap, should I go with maple veneer or real wood?  If I go with veneer, should I go with a factory finish?  (I'd still have to coat the banding somehow.)  What do you guys think?     


« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 05:41 PM by Pvon »

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 07:13 PM »
What is it about banding that is frustrating you. Iron-on banding is usually very easy to apply with a regular clothes iron or you buy the little iron sold to woodworkers made for it since it's way smaller and manageable than a full size iron.
Matching your existing color/stain to new wood still seems like the tallest hurdle to overcome. [scratch chin]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2017, 08:44 AM »
Thanks.

I think I am going to replace all of the wood, not just the damaged fronts.   

I have tried to use an iron to practice my banding.  I find the trimming of the band to be tricky.  But, more importantly, I am a bit disappointed in the longevity of the cabinets.  These were installed 14 years ago.  The longevity issue is why I'm thinking about going with solid maple.  Do folks think that is a real option?  Would save time on the banding.  Would the solid wood be more durable, assuming they do not warp?  Is it reasonable to believe that they would not warp?   Thanks so very much for all the help. 

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2017, 11:50 AM »
Thanks.

I think I am going to replace all of the wood, not just the damaged fronts.   

I have tried to use an iron to practice my banding.  I find the trimming of the band to be tricky.  But, more importantly, I am a bit disappointed in the longevity of the cabinets.  These were installed 14 years ago.  The longevity issue is why I'm thinking about going with solid maple.  Do folks think that is a real option?  Would save time on the banding.  Would the solid wood be more durable, assuming they do not warp?  Is it reasonable to believe that they would not warp?   Thanks so very much for all the help.
. There are banding trimmers and edge treatment router bits along with specialized routers to make banding work much easier.
Solid wood could work, sure.  Good grade plywood should also be stable but you are not into banding.
Also, in your pictures, I saw finish issues more than actual wood veneer damage , at least I thought from looking at them...
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 11:57 AM »
Thanks so much.

Yes. The finish issues are well beyond just the banding. 

I spent the morning reading about cabinet quality maples.  I am leaning in that direction. 

Re finishes, has anyone heard about or used these euro waxes to finish wood?  I'd rather go that route (if they work) then decide between oil or water based clear poly.   

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2017, 12:19 PM »
Thanks so much.

Yes. The finish issues are well beyond just the banding. 

I spent the morning reading about cabinet quality maples.  I am leaning in that direction. 

Re finishes, has anyone heard about or used these euro waxes to finish wood?  I'd rather go that route (if they work) then decide between oil or water based clear poly.
. Please read or buy Bob Flexner's books on Finishing. He clearly states what each type of finish is capable of based on Chemistry and not sales hype.
And no, no way I would expect Wax to hold up in my Kitchen compared to a Waterbased or Oil based clear finish.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2017, 01:04 PM »
Thanks.  I will read this book.  I heard that recently, the Europeans had come up with more durable waxes.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2017, 01:55 PM »
Thanks.  I will read this book.  I heard that recently, the Europeans had come up with more durable waxes.
. I could see how a Microcrystalline Wax could be more durable than other waxes. But I still wouldn't want it as my sole finish on Kitchen Cabinets.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2017, 04:05 PM »
Thanks again. 

I'm going to read the book but I think a water based clear stain is where I'm likely to go due to ease of application and I don't like the yellowing look. 

How wide can you get planks in maple?  Also, in a few places I may want to go with maple laminated plywood.  Can you get a product that matches up with the look of a maple board? 

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1844
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 07:03 PM »
Thanks again. 

I'm going to read the book but I think a water based clear stain is where I'm likely to go due to ease of application and I don't like the yellowing look. 

How wide can you get planks in maple?  Also, in a few places I may want to go with maple laminated plywood.  Can you get a product that matches up with the look of a maple board?
. Maple plywood is sold unfinished and finished from what I've seen.
Not sure how wide it's available in board form, might depend if it's Soft Maple , Hard Maple etc or how clear the board grade is and where you're buying the wood locally.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1613
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 10:21 PM »
Thanks again. 

I'm going to read the book but I think a water based clear stain is where I'm likely to go due to ease of application and I don't like the yellowing look. 

How wide can you get planks in maple?  Also, in a few places I may want to go with maple laminated plywood.  Can you get a product that matches up with the look of a maple board?

Availability of hardwood lumber would depend on where you live (and I couldn't find that you said where). Solid wood maple boards are available in varying widths and lengths in my area. However, unless you have a source for custom planing, you would need a jointer and planer to get them flat and the correct thickness. In the area I live, maple would be available from very narrow to fairly wide boards; probably up to 10". This means that you would also need to do glue ups for the cabinet doors at least.

I'm sure you can find unfinished maple veneered plywood. Again, in the area I live I could get sheets of plywood veneered with almost any hardwood.
Randy

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2017, 07:48 PM »
A bump.  Spent last weekend working on a bathroom.  I cut and banded the faces for all the cabinets.  They came out much better than I thought they would.  (See picture below.)  I think they are a better quality than the ones they are replacing. 

A couple of new issues.  Boy it took me a long time to place the faces on the boxes and screw them on (from the inside of the box).  Any tricks to how you do this as I can't use any clamps easily and holding the face, the drill and the face doesn't work well.  Should I make some marks on the draw, take the draw out of the box and then attach the face?

Another issue:  In a few places in the house the side panels on the boxes are visible and in bad condition. They are joined by biscuits.  Can you reliably take a side panel off and rejoin with biscuits?  I guess another Festool product is in my future.  Any advice on how to proceed? 

Although the banding went well, it takes a lot of time (at least for me).  I iron on the banding.  Then I use a block to rub the banding down with the glue.  I snip the ends with the festool edge band cutter (I know it is expensive and overkill but it really makes perfect cuts).  I then use a couple of techniques.  One is to use my RO 90 sander held at a 45% angle to where down the excess banding.  I then carefully hand sand the band until it breaks along a smooth line.  After that I use a block and a hand sand paper to remove the excess glue. 

This weekend is on to painting with poly! 

Online RobBob

  • Posts: 1021
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2017, 08:40 PM »
Availability of hardwood lumber would depend on where you live (and I couldn't find that you said where). Solid wood maple boards are available in varying widths and lengths in my area. However, unless you have a source for custom planing, you would need a jointer and planer to get them flat and the correct thickness. In the area I live, maple would be available from very narrow to fairly wide boards; probably up to 10". This means that you would also need to do glue ups for the cabinet doors at least.

I'm sure you can find unfinished maple veneered plywood. Again, in the area I live I could get sheets of plywood veneered with almost any hardwood.
Check out Rockler for the solid maple.  I am sure you can find it cheaper, but this is already surfaced on four sides.  Might be worth buying a few boards for testing purposes?

Maple by the Piece-3/4" Thickness
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 08:52 PM by RobBob »

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2017, 08:44 PM »
Thanks. Nice photos.  I'm not sure why you sent them though.  I'm using plywood laminated faces to my drawers.  Please explain so I can learn.

Offline jools

  • Posts: 252
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2017, 02:36 AM »
I mount drawfronts with 2 or 3 blobs of hot melt glue. When dry fix as normal. A hot melt glue gun is well worth room in your shop and useful for jig making, pattern routing etc
Regards
Jools
It started with one little sander

Offline Pvon

  • Posts: 10
Re: 3 projects for a nubie
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2017, 02:38 PM »
Interesting idea re the glue mount.  Is it practical to replace the face if it gets damaged if you use glue?

So I used clear poly on the test bathroom and it came out great.  Will post photos when I am done. 

I ordered some buffing sponges for the RO 90.  Should I use them to buff the finish after the 3 coat or leave well enough alone? 

I found out (perhaps it would be obvious to those of you more experienced) that I need to buy a domino to replace exposed end pieces for the boxes.  Is it practical to just replace and end piece (not the rest of the box)?  Should I get the 500 or 700?  Any advice would be much appreciated.

Another discovery that puzzled me.  Looks like the boxes and the fronts were all maple veneered MDF.  Is that a good choice?  Better than real wood?  Or worse?  Wondering if that is why they degrading fairly quickly (12 years). 

Thanks again for all the advice. 

By the way, I have not posted to the other string, but so far I thin the track saw is better than a table saw to do what I am doing.  Having said that, I am a rank amateur that learns something new every step in this project.