Author Topic: Bench Dogs  (Read 2340 times)

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Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 226
Bench Dogs
« on: March 17, 2019, 01:42 PM »
I'm trying to move over to MFT style top and bench dogs.

I see there are various lengths of these dogs and in the case of UJK Parf dogs - straight shank/chamfer/or std. shoulder.

For those that have experience with this type of cutting what size and how many dogs are recommended to get started?

Thanks

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Offline Ralph Mignano

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Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2019, 02:35 PM »
Take a look at www.benchdogs.co.uk. there you'll find a number of different types that you'll need, depending on what you're looking to do.
TS 55 R, CTL MIDI, RAILS 1400mm, DF 500 Q, OF 1400, CMS-OF, CMS-GE GB 240V, CMS-TS55, ETS 150/5, BS 75 E, MFT/3, KS120, MFK 700 EQ, T 18+3 FL, CTL 36,PS 420 EBQ, ETS EC 150/3, RTS 400 REQ, FS5000/2, FS 1400/2-LR 32, SYSROCK BR10, VAC SYS Set SE1, SYS3-Set SURFIX, FS-PA, FS-PA-VL, LR 32-SYS

Offline morts10n

  • Posts: 206
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2019, 02:50 PM »
Does Benchdogs.uk  ship to U.S. ?

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 354
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2019, 03:17 PM »
If you are cutting mostly sheet goods and 3/4-inch stock, then look at the TSO Stubby Dogs.  These are sized to clear the motor on the TS55 and TS75.  Get two for the rail, along with the UJK Dog Rail Clips.  You can use two of the TSO Small Dogs for the cross points, with the advantage being all of the dogs have the same collar diameter.

I like the Veritas Surface Dogs a little better for the cross points.  The flat faces provide more contact with the stock and are less likely to leave impressions.

Another good choice are the QWAS A-Dogs.  The advantage to these is the continuous diameter on the upper portion (i.e. no collar).

Offline Ralph Mignano

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Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2019, 03:23 PM »
Does Benchdogs.uk  ship to U.S. ?

We sure do.
TS 55 R, CTL MIDI, RAILS 1400mm, DF 500 Q, OF 1400, CMS-OF, CMS-GE GB 240V, CMS-TS55, ETS 150/5, BS 75 E, MFT/3, KS120, MFK 700 EQ, T 18+3 FL, CTL 36,PS 420 EBQ, ETS EC 150/3, RTS 400 REQ, FS5000/2, FS 1400/2-LR 32, SYSROCK BR10, VAC SYS Set SE1, SYS3-Set SURFIX, FS-PA, FS-PA-VL, LR 32-SYS

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2019, 03:46 AM »
I'm trying to move over to MFT style top and bench dogs.

I see there are various lengths of these dogs and in the case of UJK Parf dogs - straight shank/chamfer/or std. shoulder.

For those that have experience with this type of cutting what size and how many dogs are recommended to get started?

Thanks

Hi Mike

The original Veritas Parf Dogs from Lee Valley were designed to fit the range of sizes of holes found on MFT variants from Festool. In some circumstances they appear a little lose but can be secured from below to reduce movement.

I know that you have the Mark 2 Parf Guide System and am grateful for the kind words that you posted about this. The range of UJK dogs which all have Parf branding or approval have been designed specifically to match the tight tolerances of the PGS. They will be tight in the holes to start with but will loosen a little over time. I have shown how easy it is to make a simple dog removal tool should you need to move dogs around at any time. The tool can be seen at the start of this video:



Peter

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2516
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2019, 06:18 AM »
I use both Qwas dogs and Parf dogs. Both do the job well and fit snugly in the MFT holes. I tend to like the Parf Super dogs best. They seem to really lock in the best. If you use the Parf dogs, I recommend buying the Parf chamfering tool. It easily creates a shallow chamfer the Superdog’s shoulder fits into.

I think 4 dogs is the minimum necessary. But, I’m never the one to buy the minimum! I have about 12 dogs of various sizes.
Birdhunter

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 467
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2019, 08:59 AM »
I have all 3 heights of the TSO dogs, they are rather nice.  The stubbys are the ones you use the most since as was mentioned they clear the saws, so figure on needing at least 3 (get you 2 edges).   I use them all around for holding sheet goods and such.    The tall dogs are what I use with the clips for the rail, I gave up one the MFT rail setup very quickly.

I don't know that I have found myself using the mediums much at all.   At some point i'd probably get 2 more talls so I can flip ends of the MFT quickly.  And having a pile of the shorts around is never going to hurt, as they are nice to have for doing assembly work and such, so if you have multiple tables it would be nice to have a couple for each.

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 761
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2019, 09:49 PM »
*shrugs* I use Precision Dogs and have four with two different heights. Six would be good but so far I haven't needed that many as I have two sets, so 4 total, of the Festool Element clamps. Rail Dogs come in handy sometimes as I use them with the Woodpeckers parallel guides as a fence.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 844
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 02:27 AM »
TSO dogs are spot on. I use the Festool 20mm bit they sell for making tops. Works extremely well.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 857
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2019, 07:02 AM »
TSO dogs are spot on. I use the Festool 20mm bit they sell for making tops. Works extremely well.

@tallgrass Do you mean the 20mm bit that comes with the UJK PGS? I'm a bit confused, because TSO do not sell any Festool product or perhaps I messed it. Anyways if you talking about the UJK bit, yes it's spot on and make a very clean hole in MDF.

I'm about to make a top from baltic birch ply. Because it's plywood I will be boring the 20mm holes on both sides to prevent tear-out.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:25 AM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 226
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 11:15 AM »
Ha - the more I'm learning about bench dogs the more I think there needs to be, like for our four legged friends, an AKK type organization with standards for them.

I originally bought LeeValley Veritas bench dogs since they had the Parf designation thinking they were designed for the Parf drilling guide system tops but now find out they are smaller in diameter to work with MFT tops also. I'm probably going to return them.

I did purchase a pair of UJK Super Dogs and the shank diameter on them is for a tighter fit on UJK drilled tops. I measured around 19.94mm. I see TSO close fit are advertised as 19.98mm. UJK has guide dogs/pups but don't have any in hand so maybe they are also close fit tolerances.

Something that surprised me to learn when I was watching a video the other day was that the MFT table dog holes were not designed to be used to align the work piece with precision. The holes were there mostly for clamping and only somewhat recently with CNC machining could hole size and position be held close enough to allow almost perfect 90 deg cuts with bench dogs.


Offline TSO Products

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Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 02:47 PM »
@Mike Goetzke and others:
Dog selection criteria, in addition to the comments before in this thread, include additional  considerations:
1.   The dimensional accuracy and tolerances of the 20mm patterned workbench
2.   The trade -off between super-precision and practical utility.

Point 1: Dimensional workbench top accuracy
- not all workbench tops are equally or even consistently precise across the entire surface. This means that the DOGS and other tools connecting to the hole pattern need to take this variability into account. If you have a precision 20mm top via CNC Router or Parf Guide Mk 1 or Mk 2 you can be well served by the Parf Super Dogs we stock and sell along with TSO’s CF-Dog series which duplicate the dimensions and Close Fit (CF-) tolerances of the Parf Super Dogs. As Peter Parfitt has pointed out, these Dogs fit very snug – enough so that Peter has come up with a “dog extractor” shop built accessory (Parf Workshop Notes # 23).  Our trademarked DoubleGroove™ Dog collars are designed to make extraction easier without a separate accessory. This kind of a tight fit may not always be helpful, however.

Point 2: Practical Utility
– applies not only to the Dogs but also to the workbenches including the MFT/3. Many of the uses of these tops do not require and do not benefit from hyper-precision. More is not always better.
For this reason, we also offer a DoubleGroove™ Dog family (non CF-Dogs) with dimensions and tolerances more user friendly for all round woodshop applications but still quite capable for all but the most critical applications.


Judge for yourself – risk free:
If you’re not sure, you buy a set of each including Parf Super Dog and compare. If you don’t find any of them useful, simply return to us – no problem.
You’re the best judge of what is right for you [smile]

Hans and Eric

PS: to clarify - the 20mm drill bit/cutter: TSO stocks the UJK 20mm CentroTec shaft cutter with lead-in tip designed to follow the 3mm pilot hole.
We are not a FESTOOL dealer

TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 844
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2019, 02:56 PM »
It is a surprise that the holes were not meant for what people are using them for. A pleasant side-effect of the manufacturing process. A fantastic example of decentralized and parallel development. This also makes the FOG a tremendous resource for festool and manufactures.

Mario Turcot:
I am referring to the 20mm router bit they sell for the purpose of making the 20mm holes.

Festool 491072 Euro-Hinge Boring Bit HW 20mm

This is only really important if you are trying to replicate the Festool top. As has been mentioned that there is a variance in the dimensions of the "dogs" . This causes some difficulty when trying to maximize the accuracy of the dog measuring concept. This leads to having to figure out what tolerance and clearance you are aiming for. This creates the chicken egg conundrum. Are you going to match the dogs to the holes or the holes to the dogs. Considering the many different ways you can make table tops, this is something that should be considered.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 844
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 02:57 PM »
TSO and I posted at the same time. His post covers it quite well.

Offline Chris Cianci

  • Posts: 25
Re: Bench Dogs
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2019, 04:46 PM »
In response to the original post, I saw a video by Peter Millard about bench dogs from the bench dog site where they had collars as an accessory to a dog w no collar so it could double as a dog to reference wood off of but because the straight dog tightened by twisting it in the hole the then added collar also had a clamping effect and would make say using the domino faster than clamping and unclamping. I couldn’t find this on the TSO site......perhaps it’s me.