Author Topic: Best Sander for Door Frames  (Read 6321 times)

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Offline Mike Goetzke

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Best Sander for Door Frames
« on: September 27, 2011, 10:14 AM »
I'm building many kitchen doors for our kitchen. I've been using my 150/3 for the frames of the raised panel doors but it's a little big for this job. Any alternatives?

Thanks,

Mike

Online ccarrolladams

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 10:21 AM »
My custom cabinet shop has had good luck with the RO 90 DX for face frames as well as cabinet door and drawer front frames.

We own virtually all of the Festool sanders. We switch to the ETS 125 and 150/3 for wider door panels and drawer fronts.

When we need to keep edges crisp, we only use hard pads on our sanders.

Offline ScotF

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 10:24 AM »
I am sure others will weigh in, but I think that is one of the things that the RO90 was made for (do not have one, but we did use it in cabinet class for this purpose) or you could try one of the 5 inch RO and take advantage of the upcoming sale that starts in a few days (for either one).  I really like orbital sanders and so the RS2E, RTS400 or DTS400 would work too -- you can move them quickly over the joints to flush them and when you go through the grits you do not see scratches and have a smooth, flat surface.  

Scot

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 10:41 AM »
You can use the 150/3 much better just switching to the hard pad

I put them on new and never take them off. I do need another one on my Rotex,  it took 3 years to wear out.

I guess if you are sticking to Festool go RO 90, still go with the hard pad.
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Offline Alex

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 10:43 AM »
Best for door frames are the smaller sanders, DTS400 and ETS125.

Offline Mike Goetzke

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 11:48 AM »
Thanks for all the input so far. Another question - I'm not a pro but when I sand my doors I use 120 (I sometimes skip this), 150, 180, 220, and 320 grit paper, is this how it shoud be done?

(Asking because if I buy a new sander I will need to stock up on paper)

Thanks,

Mike

Offline Alex

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 12:44 PM »
Mike, those grits look good. Only 320 might be overkill though.

Online ccarrolladams

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 12:47 PM »
Mike, normally it is best to progress through different grits, getting finer each time. However, when preparing wood for some type of finish, you need to be careful you do not burnish the wood. That sort of burnishing, while making the wood very smooth, can also frustrate certain finishes.

Hardly any of my custom cabinet clients want us to do the final finishing. We are a wholesale shop, so our clients are installers and designers, all with established relationships with finishers.

So, we always ask for exact instructions as to how fine they want us to sand.

Since we usually are using exotic woods for doors, frames and drawer fronts, commonly the first finish to be applied will be some kind of stain. Therefore we are asked to end our sanding at 120 grit. This keeps the pores of the wood receptive to the stain. Once that stain has dried then the finisher will use finer abrasives, often starting with 150 grit.

When I have done the finishing personally I like to apply stain at the 120 grit stage. and then follow with 150 followed by 180 grit. At that point I would apply a clear finish, lightly sanding between coats with progressively finer grits.

As several others have said, cabinet doors, frames and drawer fronts are not all about round sanders. With raised panel doors there will be aspects needing in-line sanding to prepare for finishing. We own several Festool Duplex LS 130 EQ sanders. Those accept custom pads. We have made such pads for our frequently used profiles for the sticks and the edges of the raised panels. Generally the cope does not benefit from finish sanding. All this assumes the router bits are sharp. It is worthwhile to practice enough using the router to reduce the need to finish sanding those parts, since ususally raised panel doors look best when the various edges of the profile are really crisp.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 12:49 PM »
Yeah, for me 320 is for between finishing coats at most. I usually dont even sand into the 200's and never had an issue of anything not being smooth.

Listen to ccarrolladams on this.
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Online SRSemenza

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 04:43 PM »
Mike, normally it is best to progress through different grits, getting finer each time. However, when preparing wood for some type of finish, you need to be careful you do not burnish the wood. That sort of burnishing, while making the wood very smooth, can also frustrate certain finishes.

Hardly any of my custom cabinet clients want us to do the final finishing. We are a wholesale shop, so our clients are installers and designers, all with established relationships with finishers.

So, we always ask for exact instructions as to how fine they want us to sand.

Since we usually are using exotic woods for doors, frames and drawer fronts, commonly the first finish to be applied will be some kind of stain. Therefore we are asked to end our sanding at 120 grit. This keeps the pores of the wood receptive to the stain. Once that stain has dried then the finisher will use finer abrasives, often starting with 150 grit.

When I have done the finishing personally I like to apply stain at the 120 grit stage. and then follow with 150 followed by 180 grit. At that point I would apply a clear finish, lightly sanding between coats with progressively finer grits.
As several others have said, cabinet doors, frames and drawer fronts are not all about round sanders. With raised panel doors there will be aspects needing in-line sanding to prepare for finishing. We own several Festool Duplex LS 130 EQ sanders. Those accept custom pads. We have made such pads for our frequently used profiles for the sticks and the edges of the raised panels. Generally the cope does not benefit from finish sanding. All this assumes the router bits are sharp. It is worthwhile to practice enough using the router to reduce the need to finish sanding those parts, since ususally raised panel doors look best when the various edges of the profile are really crisp.


Doesn't this end up sanding off the stain? At least that is my experience. How do you avoid that?

Seth
Festool Service 800-554-8741

Offline Alex

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 05:05 PM »
Doesn't this end up sanding off the stain? At least that is my experience. How do you avoid that?

I think the trick is in light sanding.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 05:25 PM »
No you are sanding the clear, NOT the stain. You better not get near that stain or the next coat of clear will make the object look blotchy. You are looking to just flatten out the bubbles, etc. With shellac you get a fine chalky dust  when sanding in between coats, but it does not touch the stain. As Alex said its a light sanding. There is rarely sanding between stain coats for me(I find its unnecessary and actually changes the color ). I sand just between the top coats and before the stain is applied.

If sanding between stain coats works for someone I am not telling them to change it. I rarely ever put on more than two coats of actual stain, normally just one, but up to ten coats of clear if it is shellac, two or three if it is poly..
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 05:29 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Mike Goetzke

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 06:10 PM »
On this project I have close to 2/3's of my 65 frame/panels done (doors and end caps). I also mistakenly showed my wife a door edge profile so I'm sick of sanding (lots of hand sanding plus see a 10% sale on Oct. 1st. ;D). I bought a used LS130 and tried it out on flat work and found it hard to control - maybe I didn't give it enough time but I resold it (my plans were to used the make-your-own-profile pad). On the finish, I'm using WB finishes. I applied amber shellac to my Euro steamed beech to pop the grain and tone it a bit. I then topcoated it lacquer, sand with 320, apply additional coats of topcaoat and only sand if necessary.

Mike

Offline ScotF

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 07:32 PM »
I think that the sanding regimen depends on the type of finish you are applying as others have mentioned.  Staining takes better at lower grits with open wood pores and this is important to get the stain deep into the wood.  Otherwise it just sits there and wipes off easily.   

I typically finish everything in oil and occasionally apply a top-coat of some kind and I generally sand to 400 grit on most pieces and higher in some instances.  I believe that Sam Maloof sanded into the upper hundreds/low thousands to get the silky-smooth feel to his chairs.

I think that if sanding wood right from the planer/jointer then you need to start at 80 grit to efficiently remove the ripples and move up through the grits from there...you spend more time with 80 and less and less time with each progressive grit as you are just removing scratches from the previous grit.  If you start higher it will take a lot longer to remove the mill marks and this is a waste of time and energy, in my opinion.

Scot 

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 07:37 PM »
I think Cliff "Woodnerd" recommends sticking with used 220 through the whole process?  [big grin]

 [poke] Cliff

Online ccarrolladams

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 09:12 PM »
Back in the days when I did use stain, I found it worked best for me when the pores were open. That is why I stopped at 120 grit. I never sanded between coats of stain, but usually I only used a single coat.

After the stain was dried, I used 150 grit very lightly. Depending on the type of wood and intended results, I might follow with a light sanding with 180 grit.

As I said, when finishing specialists will do their thing to cabinets I build, nearly always they will start with stain. Some instruct us to only progress to 100 grit, but more want us to also make 120 grit pass.

Personally I love working with poplar for paint-ready jobs. The trouble is that our clients simply do not by those jobs from us.

Offline mastercabman

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 09:15 PM »
Mike, normally it is best to progress through different grits, getting finer each time. However, when preparing wood for some type of finish, you need to be careful you do not burnish the wood. That sort of burnishing, while making the wood very smooth, can also frustrate certain finishes.

Hardly any of my custom cabinet clients want us to do the final finishing. We are a wholesale shop, so our clients are installers and designers, all with established relationships with finishers.

So, we always ask for exact instructions as to how fine they want us to sand.

Since we usually are using exotic woods for doors, frames and drawer fronts, commonly the first finish to be applied will be some kind of stain. Therefore we are asked to end our sanding at 120 grit. This keeps the pores of the wood receptive to the stain. Once that stain has dried then the finisher will use finer abrasives, often starting with 150 grit.

When I have done the finishing personally I like to apply stain at the 120 grit stage. and then follow with 150 followed by 180 grit. At that point I would apply a clear finish, lightly sanding between coats with progressively finer grits.
As several others have said, cabinet doors, frames and drawer fronts are not all about round sanders. With raised panel doors there will be aspects needing in-line sanding to prepare for finishing. We own several Festool Duplex LS 130 EQ sanders. Those accept custom pads. We have made such pads for our frequently used profiles for the sticks and the edges of the raised panels. Generally the cope does not benefit from finish sanding. All this assumes the router bits are sharp. It is worthwhile to practice enough using the router to reduce the need to finish sanding those parts, since ususally raised panel doors look best when the various edges of the profile are really crisp.


Doesn't this end up sanding off the stain? At least that is my experience. How do you avoid that?

Seth
I don't know,but i think i'm with you.He is talking about sanding after applying the stain and then put on the top coat. ??? ???
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 09:32 PM »
I think Cliff "Woodnerd" recommends sticking with used 220 through the whole process?  [big grin]

 [poke] Cliff

Yes, and it makes stocking abrasives a lot simpler. [tongue] [big grin]
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 11:14 PM »
Mike, normally it is best to progress through different grits, getting finer each time. However, when preparing wood for some type of finish, you need to be careful you do not burnish the wood. That sort of burnishing, while making the wood very smooth, can also frustrate certain finishes.

Hardly any of my custom cabinet clients want us to do the final finishing. We are a wholesale shop, so our clients are installers and designers, all with established relationships with finishers.

So, we always ask for exact instructions as to how fine they want us to sand.

Since we usually are using exotic woods for doors, frames and drawer fronts, commonly the first finish to be applied will be some kind of stain. Therefore we are asked to end our sanding at 120 grit. This keeps the pores of the wood receptive to the stain. Once that stain has dried then the finisher will use finer abrasives, often starting with 150 grit.

When I have done the finishing personally I like to apply stain at the 120 grit stage. and then follow with 150 followed by 180 grit. At that point I would apply a clear finish, lightly sanding between coats with progressively finer grits.
As several others have said, cabinet doors, frames and drawer fronts are not all about round sanders. With raised panel doors there will be aspects needing in-line sanding to prepare for finishing. We own several Festool Duplex LS 130 EQ sanders. Those accept custom pads. We have made such pads for our frequently used profiles for the sticks and the edges of the raised panels. Generally the cope does not benefit from finish sanding. All this assumes the router bits are sharp. It is worthwhile to practice enough using the router to reduce the need to finish sanding those parts, since ususally raised panel doors look best when the various edges of the profile are really crisp.


Doesn't this end up sanding off the stain? At least that is my experience. How do you avoid that?

Seth
I don't know,but i think i'm with you.He is talking about sanding after applying the stain and then put on the top coat. ??? ???

I'm just going to throw some things out for consideration.  There was no detailed information as to the type of stain.  Water based stain raises the grain and can be shaved back down and some stains like gels mainly sit on top of the surface, while others penetrate into the wood showing more of the grain characteristics making it more difficult to sand out the coloring.  Sanding a finish lightly before applying the topcoat helps to level out the top coat for a smoother looking final product.  The grits you use, the amount of time spent and the sanding pressure can make or break any benefit to that intermediate sanding step.  As previously mentioned, different wood species and boards respond differently and so even within the same species, different sanding methods may be required.  In the end, you've got to figure out the process that works for you.  Try it different ways on non-critical test pieces and hold onto them as samples with details on the back of the steps you did.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:25 PM by Ken Nagrod »

Offline Alan m

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2011, 02:43 PM »
I think Cliff "Woodnerd" recommends sticking with used 220 through the whole process?  [big grin]

 [poke] Cliff

i think cliff graduated from nerd to geek 

you ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Offline fidelfs

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2011, 03:54 PM »
quick question?

Do you guys use a machine between coats?  I am not able to use any, because its aggressiveness (even the ets 125).  I always go sanding by hand.

If you use a sander, how do you do it?  Festool sander don't behave well at lower speeds, I just wonder?

There is never a situation where it can't be done with the right hand tool - even though it may be a lot more work.

Online ccarrolladams

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2011, 04:19 PM »
quick question?

Do you guys use a machine between coats?  I am not able to use any, because its aggressiveness (even the ets 125).  I always go sanding by hand.

If you use a sander, how do you do it?  Festool sander don't behave well at lower speeds, I just wonder?



Quick question back at you: How many hours a day and days per week do you need to sand?

Many days we build 50 cabinet doors and about the same number of drawer fronts. This is in addition to the cabinet cases and shelves. Each of us years ago had to decide if we could make a living only sanding by hand. Each concluded we needed to become "as one" with our sanders, doing excellent work at a productivity level we can make a living.

I have been making and selling high-end furniture and cabinets for 60 years. Never once did a client ask what proportion of the job was done by hand and what portion was done with power tools. The end-customers are concerned by the way the job looks.

Of course we go the last mile using joiners and planers to reduce consumption of abrasives. Then when we do use abrasives we do so as delicately as possible.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2011, 04:53 PM »
That does not answer his question in any way, though it is your view on why you do not do to much hand work.

Any way, to the question how to sand in between coats with a power sander.. I can sand in between clear coats easily using the 150/3 it's what I use and it does not burn though the coats at all. You just do not use the correct abrasive and technique.

I use a 220(sometimes in the 300 grit range as well) grit paper designed for sanding sealers and paints , etc, Festool makes many you can look it up and choose from the chart I posted. Put on your sealer or clear coat and wait until it is completely dry. The sanding in between coats should not gum up the paper to much or you are sanding to soon or possibly put on to much of the clear coat( I find using to much is the number one mistake). I mostly use shellac so I am speaking to that other finishes may have a slightly different method, some else can speak to poly, etc. With shellac it dries fast enough to sand the same day, maybe 3 times between coats(One reason I use it), other materials probably don't unless you work LONG days.

When I sand a slight white chalk dust starts to appear, that's when I know I waited long enough to sand, if the paper starts to gum and I still see chalk I know I am over sanding. If the paper gums up right away its not dry enough. It is a light sanding. A 48" circle takes me about 1 or 2 minutes max to sand in between the coats. Either tack off the white dust left on the surface or vacuum it off (I vac) and then add another coat, by the third coat it will look like glass with no nubs or stuff in the finish to speak of. You can then keep going with coats or just wax over it. I wait until the next day to wax with shellac, some people wait a month or more.

Sanding in between coats with a power sander is doable. For me it is not only faster than sanding by hand, it gives MUCH better results. I would spend a couple days in the shop using the the finishes of your choice to develop a method that works for you. This works for me, there are many correct ways and your mileage may vary.

Note: I don't find the speed of the sander matters, actually I always use the 150/3 at full speed with the CT33 at full speed as well.Keep the sander moving and it should glide right over the surface, if not its probably not dry enough or you grit is to low.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 05:04 PM by Dovetail65 »
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Online RL

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Re: Best Sander for Door Frames
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2011, 07:12 PM »
I often use my ETS 125 to sand between coats. Full speed. In many ways, it is easier to control than hand sanding because it is consistent and smooth. It is one instance where a power tool can be gentler than a hand tool. Use an abrasive with a high enough grit and you will be fine. The interface pad also makes it easier.

For example, after a few coats of shellac, I can use brilliant 320 or platin 2 to sand it smooth and remove any imperfections in the finish. I do this without dust extraction to allow the chalky dust to fill the pores. When I lay on more shellac it works the dust into the pores and acts as a sealer.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to apply a finish, just a right or wrong result. If you get good results with hand sanding, stick with it. Or practise with the ETS on an area of less importance till you are satisfied.

Just my [2cents]
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