Author Topic: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space  (Read 6867 times)

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Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2017, 07:05 PM »
What is the fatigue strength of welded ABS?
(Making a single test drawer and loading it with cans - driving down a dirt road for 20miles - would be a start.)

I would think that fatigue would be the major consideration?

... yes, and glued ABS might be even worse. Who volunteers? [tongue]

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Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2017, 07:39 PM »
Along the line of metal... What about the same concept using pre made fibreglass sheet?
Then epoxy the corners with a piece of angle (metal or a fibreglass 90 degree), and maybe rivet the corners to prevent peeling the joint apart...
Or use Sikaflex.

Or see if there is something like 3/8 square stock with pre tapped holes to screw into for attaching sides to bottom?

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2017, 08:48 PM »
Along the line of metal... What about the same concept using pre made fibreglass sheet?
Then epoxy the corners with a piece of angle (metal or a fibreglass 90 degree), and maybe rivet the corners to prevent peeling the joint apart...
Or use Sikaflex.

Or see if there is something like 3/8 square stock with pre tapped holes to screw into for attaching sides to bottom?

Thanks Holmz, it's a possibility, BUT I'm making it an absolute design requirement that there is no internal reinforcement (unless extremely thin) - external is okay. Basically 3/8" square stock in each corner wastes 3/4" of width and 3/4" of depth, completely defeating the original goal of maximum volume - it's far worse than just using 12mm ply for the walls.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1913
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2017, 10:02 PM »
Liking the idea about switching to stainless steel to avoid the rust issues. Plus it's more food safe and easier to clean.
Let's do a reality check:
- do you put your food into these drawers without any form of wrapping or box?
- do you see yourself use the vehicle in a prepper manner (loaded up to the top)?
- how many km (miles, whatever units) do you do per year on offroad tracks (or mismaintained roads) so will vibrations really an issue with a design built lighter than a tank?
- what is the projected lifetime of the build (how long will the vehicle last)?

Bottom line: will an overengineerd (heavy and expensive) design really have tangible advantages, compared to a simpler build?

Not sure what is less simple about stainless vs galvanized, same build just different material
+1

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 454
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2017, 11:51 PM »
Not sure what is less simple about stainless vs galvanized, same build just different material
Stainless is a hard metal and will be a pain for the fabricator. The benefit is stainless can be TIG welded, vs few will want to weld galvanized metals, so pop rivets would be used, or find someone with a fresh air welding hood.

So this ABS "electronics tower", as I call it, was drawn up in CAD, then cut on a CNC. Drawer boxes are not going to require a CNC by any means. It has a Hawker Odyssey AGM battery inside, which along with GPS, radio, etc, weighs in at 30lbs. The handle is bolted to the side and doesn't even deflect when carried. Small square strips were cut on the tablesaw, and used to strengthen it by gluing them into all the corners. You could jump up and down on it without it breaking. It was built to take a beating while beach recovering the boat. Edges were routed on a router table to soften them.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3613
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2017, 02:43 AM »
Just a compilation of bits and pieces...

@Peter_C, nice construct on the electronics tower, it looks like it belongs.  [thumbs up]

Stainless would be be my preferred material, however, the stuff is tougher than nails to fabricate unless you have the tools and you find someone who has the experience in working with the stuff. If you can shear/cut/bend 18 gauge steel, using stainless reduces that tool’s capability to 20-22 gauge.

Also, using any tooling (drills, punches, wire brushes, grinding wheels, abrasive belts) that was previously used on steel products is a no-no. If you do, you’ll still have rust issues, as the iron molecules gathered from the previous steel machining operations will simply be deposited on the stainless, (unless it’s acid etched or electro polished) that’s one of the reasons that having stainless experience is a plus. Those guys keep their stainless tools/tooling separated from iron based tooling. I know of 2 local stainless fabricators that refuse to fab ANY steel project because they don't want to take the risk of cross contamination. They're USDA certified for the dairy industry.

I work with both stainless and aluminum...I prefer the finished results I get with stainless...however I prefer working with aluminum. Basically any of your woodworking tools can be used to fabricate aluminum. Consider it to be just a harder form of Jatoba.  [big grin]

Drills, counter sinks, carbide router bits, saw blades even band saw blades used for woodworking can all be used on aluminum. Stainless really does require cobalt tooling and machine tools that are capable of a reduction of 75-80% in rotational/lineal speed.

On a different front, purging the moisture from the interior of the vehicle will not be a trivial task. As Gregor suggested, as effective as moisture barriers are in keeping  moisture out...they are equally effective in keeping moisture in. The tighter you seal the enclosure, the more the issue arises. Add humans, pets, cooking, plants they all add to the problem especially in a smaller contained environment.

However, all of this is not to dissuade you...let the fun begin.  [cool]

On an entirely different front, if you need to paint 🎨 something on the exterior (or for that matter, interior) to prevent rust from forming, consider POR-15. It will actually encapsulate the metal in a protective polymer shell. Incredible stuff. You have a hard time chiseling the coating off the substrate.   [tongue]
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 09:49 AM by Cheese »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2017, 06:00 AM »
?..

On an entirely different front, if you need to paint 🎨 something on the exterior (or for that matter, interior) to prevent rust from forming, consider POR-15. It will actually encapsulate the metal in a protective polymer shell. Incredible stuff.

Yeah Cheese...
Just got an older 4x4... The POR stuff is not cheap, but I got a gallon!

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 162
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2017, 06:40 AM »
I can’t really add anything to the general discussion, but as a side-note, if you have a moisture-problem, take some old socks (no holes!) and fill them with fresh cat litter.
It is purpose built for moisture extraction and works like a charm!

I always keep a couple of those in my car and have never had problems with interior moisture build-up ever since.
To avoid strange questions, store them out of sight, underneath seats etc... ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 550
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2017, 09:17 AM »
To throw in another material: Plexiglass.
Moisture resistant, millable with the usual tools, perfect for glueup with itself , high strength, not that brittle, available in many colors (incl. transparent).

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 454
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2017, 01:14 PM »
To throw in another material: Plexiglass.
Moisture resistant, millable with the usual tools, perfect for glueup with itself , high strength, not that brittle, available in many colors (incl. transparent).
Although I am a HUGE fan of lexan, it is not going to be as tough as ABS, albeit stiffer than ABS. There is not much flex in lexan before it breaks (Unless heated).

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2017, 05:02 PM »
To throw in another material: Plexiglass.
Moisture resistant, millable with the usual tools, perfect for glueup with itself , high strength, not that brittle, available in many colors (incl. transparent).
Although I am a HUGE fan of lexan, it is not going to be as tough as ABS, albeit stiffer than ABS. There is not much flex in lexan before it breaks (Unless heated).

Then we get back to the concept of forming them over mandrel using a vacuum or some press.  [big grin]

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1563
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2017, 07:44 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 454
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2017, 09:28 PM »
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2017, 10:17 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

Dang, we don't have an "eating popcorn" emoji   -dicktill

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3613
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2017, 10:20 PM »
Dang, we don't have an "eating popcorn" emoji   -dicktill

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 792
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2017, 10:22 PM »
[popcorn]

It's under [more].

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2017, 10:25 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

Dang, we don't have an "eating popcorn" emoji   -dicktill

Thanks @Cheese & @Bohdan

 [popcorn]

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2017, 11:48 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

@rst, we're all (well some of us are) waiting to hear what you propose for these drawers, please.

Offline fshanno

  • Posts: 913
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2017, 07:43 PM »
Kreg has the little pocket hole screws and jig insert and bit for 1/2" ply to 1/2" ply.  I've used them on several drawer projects and they work very well.  Even on large deep drawers 10" tall 28" wide various depths.  On small drawers they are the perfect.  And they are hidden of course by the drawer front.  They only have fine threads which are easy to strip on ply so I set my drill to a very low torque.  But they snug up nice an tight and hold well. 


If you attach the bottom with the sides flush instead of the bottom to hide the plys.  Use the 1/2" pocket screws.  Or you could miter it.  Mitering plywood yields a much stronger joint.  And now that I think of it I'm going to try that myself next time.   
The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2017, 02:55 PM »
Kreg has the little pocket hole screws and jig insert and bit for 1/2" ply to 1/2" ply.  I've used them on several drawer projects and they work very well.  Even on large deep drawers 10" tall 28" wide various depths.  On small drawers they are the perfect.  And they are hidden of course by the drawer front.  They only have fine threads which are easy to strip on ply so I set my drill to a very low torque.  But they snug up nice an tight and hold well. 


If you attach the bottom with the sides flush instead of the bottom to hide the plys.  Use the 1/2" pocket screws.  Or you could miter it.  Mitering plywood yields a much stronger joint.  And now that I think of it I'm going to try that myself next time.   

Thanks @fshanno.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2017, 12:39 PM »
Hi all,

I'm having my sheet metal shop make one drawer box out of aluminum to see how that works. The plan is to have the bottom of the box flush with the bottom of the drawer front. The sides/top of the top drawer front will overlap the casing by 1/8". The next lower drawer front would be 1/8" below the bottom of this one, etc.. So here's the new dilemma: I haven't planned for horizontal bars (stretchers? - sorry if I don't have the right terms in all of this) between the drawers, again for the sole purpose of maximizing the useable vertical height, and thus volume. So when you look straight on at the drawer fronts, they will be covering the casing, but there will be an 1/8" air gap with nothing behind between the drawer fronts. Is this going to be ugly or is it okay as is? Would I be better off to trim the drawer fronts 1/4" where they overlap the casing so that they were 1/8" inside the casing, for a more consistent look? I could give up say 1/16-1/8" of drawer depth and "push" the drawer fronts "back", i.e., recessed slightly too, if that would help. I don't want to recess the drawer fronts all the way to be flush as that would be too big a loss of volume, and the casing already exists, so bumping it out to make the fronts flush isn't an option.

Thanks in advance, Dick
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 12:42 PM by dicktill »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2017, 04:39 PM »
I thought it was a Chevy based camper...? (I often am amazed at the use of lipstick and mascara, but points for trying are always given.)

I dunno... Are they held on the sides? They either need side suspension or bottom.
A euro frameless design goes better with the concept of losing no space... So the top and side would not overlap the face, like the bottom does not overlap.

That is the only way it will not lose volume.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2017, 06:40 PM »
I thought it was a Chevy based camper...? (I often am amazed at the use of lipstick and mascara, but points for trying are always given.)
Thanks (I think) @Holmz. Ah yes, the proverbial "lipstick on a pig"!  [tongue]   Well, you can see from the attached photos that this pig isn't too bad looking. Trying to not make it worse.

And perhaps, the photos and notes on them will give everyone an idea of what's going on here.
I dunno... Are they held on the sides? They either need side suspension or bottom.
A euro frameless design goes better with the concept of losing no space... So the top and side would not overlap the face, like the bottom does not overlap.

That is the only way it will not lose volume.
The drawers will be mounted with side-mount KV 8400 RV Full Extension with Stay Close slides which are very nice.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 06:43 PM by dicktill »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2017, 05:47 PM »
For that 'bow tie' beauty I would "SC" the whole concept, and just put in the Blum tandembox/metabox , which has everything already minimised and they do the everything but the plywood base.
The wider this face frames... the more volume is being lost...

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2017, 09:58 PM »
For that 'bow tie' beauty I would "SC" the whole concept, and just put in the Blum tandembox/metabox , which has everything already minimised and they do the everything but the plywood base.

I have some IKEA cabinets in my shop that either have Blum Tandembox drawers, or clones of them. I'm not impressed! The sloped sides are are low, waste space, and make it hard to pack densely (square corners are king); the underdrawer slides waste space (height being more precious than width or depth), and the whole assembly is flimsy - okay in my shop but not in a moving vehicle IMO. Wasn't familiar with the Blum Metabox drawers but they seem similar, albeit with straight sides and Euro slides (less wasted space) - but again, flimsy looking IMO, and not suitable in a moving vehicle. And I don't see a sturdy "stay close" feature on either, like I'll have with the KV slides previously mentioned.

The wider this face frames... the more volume is being lost...

Absolutely, which is why I won't have a face frame. If you look carefully at the annotated second photo above (galley 04), you'll see a double ended arrow roughly depicting the drawer width. I mentioned on the photo that I "removed shelves, doors, right hand inner panels, left & right front panels". That's two right hand panels, one which divided the two compartments (skinny one was for a Rube Goldberg table), and the other which was the cabinet side. That side was redundant with the pantry wall which will be where the side sliders will be mounted, a gain of another 1/2" of width. I failed to mention that the bottom (a gain of 1/2" of height) and back (1" to 1-1/2" gain of depth) of the cabinet are also gone! Going back to the double ended arrow: that's only really correct for the two middle drawers, which still need about a 4" chamfer in the left rear corner to clear the vertical run of the sink drain pipe, which I've pushed back as far as it can go. The upper and lower drawers are about 3" narrower to clear the two horizontal runs of the sink drain (i.e., a sideways "U"). BTW, the upper horizontal run will incorporate a Hepvo waterless trap (http://hepvo.com/), which eliminates the previous P-trap and air gap, again saving lotsa space. Have I missed any opportunities?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2017, 10:15 PM »
...I have some IKEA cabinets in my shop that either have Blum Tandembox drawers, or clones of them. I'm not impressed! The sloped sides are are low, waste space, and make it hard to pack densely (square corners are king); the underdrawer slides waste space (height being more precious than width or depth), and the whole assembly is flimsy - okay in my shop but not in a moving vehicle IMO. Wasn't familiar with the Blum Metabox drawers but they seem similar, albeit with straight sides and Euro slides (less wasted space) - but again, flimsy looking IMO, and not suitable in a moving vehicle. And I don't see a sturdy "stay close" feature on either, like I'll have with the KV slides previously mentioned.

...
[/quote]

I dunno, I have some tandembox coming, but I cannot speak from experience.
(Should know more in a few weeks.)

The inside of you vehicle looks pretty nice.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2017, 11:32 PM »
I dunno, I have some tandembox coming, but I cannot speak from experience.
(Should know more in a few weeks.)
Hope they work for you.
The inside of you vehicle looks pretty nice.
Thx, I'm hoping I don't muck that up! Appreciate your input(s).