Author Topic: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space  (Read 6866 times)

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Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« on: October 10, 2017, 11:00 PM »
Hi all,

I'm about to build some drawer boxes for my Chevy based camper-van galley/pantry. Storage space is extremely limited and very valuable, so I'm trying to maximize it as much as possible. The only way that I have seen wooden drawer boxes made is with a dado near the bottom of the front, sides, and back - usually seems to be made for 3mm plywood, and leaving 1/2" below the dado. Front, sides, and back are usually about 1/2" (or even 5/8"). I am planning on using side mounted slides, and am wondering if there is anything wrong with:
1)  9mm Baltic Birch for the front, sides, and back, fastened together with 4mm Dominos (perhaps too risky, and front/back need to be 12mm?)
2)  12mm plywood (BB if I can get it) for the bottom
3)  a fairly large number of 4mm Dominos fully through the 9mm box to attach the bottom, which would then be flush with the bottom of the front, sides, and back

All of the above gains about 1/4" in width and depth of the inside of the box, and about 1/4" in usable height. I'm hoping that the all plywood approach negates concerns/issues with relative wood movement.

Thanks in advance for any advice, Dick
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 06:41 PM by dicktill »

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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5271
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 11:10 PM »
The primary advantage to letting in the bottom is the bottom is supported by the side material.

9mm or 12mm should work. The issue with the 9mm will be screw length into the sides if it is 9mm.

The slides should keep the sides in alignment.

It will take some layout to get the Dominoes to work on the bottom. The bit is only 10mm long.

A moving vehicle stresses all the joinery in was a static unit will never know.

Tom




Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 11:29 AM »
The primary advantage to letting in the bottom is the bottom is supported by the side material.

9mm or 12mm should work. The issue with the 9mm will be screw length into the sides if it is 9mm.

The slides should keep the sides in alignment.

It will take some layout to get the Dominoes to work on the bottom. The bit is only 10mm long.

A moving vehicle stresses all the joinery in was a static unit will never know.

Tom

Thanks Tom. Hadn't thought about the short length of the 4mm Domino cutter, so yeah, I wouldn't be able to just plunge in through the sides into the bottom. Hmm, how about 5mm Domino's even though they violate the 1/3 of material thickness rule?

I assume that your concern of the screw length into the sides is about attaching the slides. Yes that will require short screws, possibly more of them.

And yes, the dynamic stresses are always a concern; I was planning on gluing the five parts together to help that.

-Dick

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 01:05 PM »
Whereas you are looking to increase storage space, have you considered drawers without slides (depending on your desired look and cabinet construction) or even undermount slides (depending on cabinet construction)?

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 03:06 PM »
Whereas you are looking to increase storage space, have you considered drawers without slides (depending on your desired look and cabinet construction) or even undermount slides (depending on cabinet construction)?

Peter

Hi Peter,

Certainly drawers without slides would increase the "useable-space cube". But then we can't get near full extension opening, and there isn't an inherent "drawer closed" locking mechanism. The side sliders I'm looking at (KV 8400 RV Full Extension with Stay Close) do have these features. Plus with no sliders, the entire drawer, not just its contents (we have to pad these, especially pots and pans!), will rattle on every bump. I did consider undermount slides, but ruled them out for two reasons: 1) of the three dimensions of the "useable-space cube", the height is the most important, because 1/2" here is a large percentage, and 2) all of the undermount ones I've seen need to be fastened to the back of the cabinet, which for the pantry is curved due the Chevy van wall shape and only 1/4" thick, and for the galley will be non-existent to gain depth (but would have to be like the pantry one if I put it back in). Perhaps there are some shallower undermount ones?

I should mention that the upper drawers are not as deep as the lower ones.

Thanks, Dick

Offline pixelated

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 03:55 PM »
Have you considered a system like this one, where the sides are an aluminum extrusion?

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32734&cat=1,250,43298,43315

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 04:36 PM »
Have you considered a system like this one, where the sides are an aluminum extrusion?

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32734&cat=1,250,43298,43315

Hmm, interesting devices. I don't think they'd be suitable for a drawer full of canned goods and such though, and there are still the issues of non-full extension, no lock, and rattling.

There is always the (expensive) possibility of having my local HVAC sheet metal shop form a channel shaped side-bottom-side out of 1/8" aluminum, and then attach wood panels for the front and back.

Another thought to gain space is to eliminate the false front, and just Domino the front panel to the sides and bottom, but as far as I know, there is then no way to adjust the alignment of these except up-down with by moving the slides.

Thanks, Dick

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 08:12 PM »
If you're willing to use solid wood...

Something I've done on occasion is to fit the bottom into a dado as you described, but make the dado 1/4" and make the bottom like a raised panel, with the raised side facing down.  On the edged of the bottom you could use a traditional slanted approach to a raised panel, or just a rabbet.    That way you can get a bottom that is 1/2" thick for the most part, but that uses up the space in the bottom of the box that would otherwise be wasted.  Depending on how hard the wood is that you use on the sides, you might be able to place the dado closer to the bottom of the drawer side than 1/2".  With a maple side, I would be tempted to make the dado 1/4" inch wide and put it 1/4" from the bottom, in which case the 1/2" raised bottom would be even with the bottom of the sides.  If the drawer is going to see heavy weight (like massive amounts of silverware), putting the dado 1/4" from the bottom might be iffy, but 3/8" should do.  Plus with solid wood you could dovetail the sides and then you really have a solid drawer.

I hope that made sense.  I really want to just draw a picture :).

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 08:29 PM »
If you're willing to use solid wood...

Something I've done on occasion is to fit the bottom into a dado as you described, but make the dado 1/4" and make the bottom like a raised panel, with the raised side facing down.  On the edged of the bottom you could use a traditional slanted approach to a raised panel, or just a rabbet.    That way you can get a bottom that is 1/2" thick for the most part, but that uses up the space in the bottom of the box that would otherwise be wasted.  Depending on how hard the wood is that you use on the sides, you might be able to place the dado closer to the bottom of the drawer side than 1/2".  With a maple side, I would be tempted to make the dado 1/4" inch wide and put it 1/4" from the bottom, in which case the 1/2" raised bottom would be even with the bottom of the sides.  If the drawer is going to see heavy weight (like massive amounts of silverware), putting the dado 1/4" from the bottom might be iffy, but 3/8" should do.  Plus with solid wood you could dovetail the sides and then you really have a solid drawer.

I hope that made sense.  I really want to just draw a picture :).

Thanks Harvey, yes that makes sense. I don't think I need a 1/2" thick bottom, that was to allow enough thickness to use Domino's to support it. The galley drawers are only 18-3/16" wide inside and the pantry drawers 11-7/16" (this is with 3/8" sides), so 3/8" thick is probably adequate for the galley bottoms and 1/4" for the pantry. I have no real problem with solid wood (hey, it looks a lot nicer!), but of course I won't be able to glue it all together; OTOH, I don't need to with your building method, which is easier. However, wouldn't I have to go back to 1/2" for the front, sides, and back to allow enough thickness for the dado?

-Dick


Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 09:13 PM »
OK, some reality checks. The total "useable-space volume" the way I have the drawers currently sized and "built" (4 each in galley and pantry) is 16,979 cubic inches, or 9.82 cubic feet. Increasing the walls from 3/8" to 1/2" loses about 2.9% of the volume (0.29 cu ft), so not too bad. Raising the floor 1/4" loses about 3.5% (0.34 cu ft), so again not too bad. Doing both loses 6.3% (0.62 cu ft), so beginning to get significant. But perhaps it just isn't worth the effort to make this fairly small improvement.   ... and using Harvey's idea of solid sides and the dado just 1/4 or 3/8" from the bottom saves back 1-1/2 to 3 percent. Hmm ...

-Dick

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 580
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 09:23 PM »
If you're willing to use solid wood...

Something I've done on occasion is to fit the bottom into a dado as you described, but make the dado 1/4" and make the bottom like a raised panel, with the raised side facing down.  On the edged of the bottom you could use a traditional slanted approach to a raised panel, or just a rabbet.    That way you can get a bottom that is 1/2" thick for the most part, but that uses up the space in the bottom of the box that would otherwise be wasted.  Depending on how hard the wood is that you use on the sides, you might be able to place the dado closer to the bottom of the drawer side than 1/2".  With a maple side, I would be tempted to make the dado 1/4" inch wide and put it 1/4" from the bottom, in which case the 1/2" raised bottom would be even with the bottom of the sides.  If the drawer is going to see heavy weight (like massive amounts of silverware), putting the dado 1/4" from the bottom might be iffy, but 3/8" should do.  Plus with solid wood you could dovetail the sides and then you really have a solid drawer.

I hope that made sense.  I really want to just draw a picture :).

Thanks Harvey, yes that makes sense. I don't think I need a 1/2" thick bottom, that was to allow enough thickness to use Domino's to support it. The galley drawers are only 18-3/16" wide inside and the pantry drawers 11-7/16" (this is with 3/8" sides), so 3/8" thick is probably adequate for the galley bottoms and 1/4" for the pantry. I have no real problem with solid wood (hey, it looks a lot nicer!), but of course I won't be able to glue it all together; OTOH, I don't need to with your building method, which is easier. However, wouldn't I have to go back to 1/2" for the front, sides, and back to allow enough thickness for the dado?

-Dick

Probably - if the bottom is solid wood, you need to allow for wood movement.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 09:40 PM »
If you're willing to use solid wood...

Something I've done on occasion is to fit the bottom into a dado as you described, but make the dado 1/4" and make the bottom like a raised panel, with the raised side facing down.  On the edged of the bottom you could use a traditional slanted approach to a raised panel, or just a rabbet.    That way you can get a bottom that is 1/2" thick for the most part, but that uses up the space in the bottom of the box that would otherwise be wasted.  Depending on how hard the wood is that you use on the sides, you might be able to place the dado closer to the bottom of the drawer side than 1/2".  With a maple side, I would be tempted to make the dado 1/4" inch wide and put it 1/4" from the bottom, in which case the 1/2" raised bottom would be even with the bottom of the sides.  If the drawer is going to see heavy weight (like massive amounts of silverware), putting the dado 1/4" from the bottom might be iffy, but 3/8" should do.  Plus with solid wood you could dovetail the sides and then you really have a solid drawer.

I hope that made sense.  I really want to just draw a picture :).

Thanks Harvey, yes that makes sense. I don't think I need a 1/2" thick bottom, that was to allow enough thickness to use Domino's to support it. The galley drawers are only 18-3/16" wide inside and the pantry drawers 11-7/16" (this is with 3/8" sides), so 3/8" thick is probably adequate for the galley bottoms and 1/4" for the pantry. I have no real problem with solid wood (hey, it looks a lot nicer!), but of course I won't be able to glue it all together; OTOH, I don't need to with your building method, which is easier. However, wouldn't I have to go back to 1/2" for the front, sides, and back to allow enough thickness for the dado?

-Dick

Probably - if the bottom is solid wood, you need to allow for wood movement.

Was thinking of still using plywood for the bottom, so wood movement is lessened. My concern was how deep the dado's needed to be for support of the bottom, and how much of the thickness of the walls would be left.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 10:28 PM »
Glue and staple the bottom in place. Run the staples though the side into the edge of the floor.

Tom

Offline Gregor

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 07:16 AM »
Or use 1mm (or 2, in case you find 1mm is not stiff enough) aluminium sheets (which can nicely be cut with the TS to size) for the bottoms and screw them into the walls from below.
Make a rabbet the thickness of the bottom on the walls that leaves 1-2mm material toward the outside, to hide the bottom if you want it to not being visible.

Offline lwoirhaye

  • Posts: 68
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2017, 12:48 PM »
Assuming steel wasn't an option, I would make the whole drawer out of 1/2" ply with the bottom glued and screwed on from underneath.  Ugly, but sturdy.   The inside front could also be eliminated, though this would complicate attaching the drawer face.   Slides can also be slightly recessed into a groove in the sides I think.   I don't remember if I've done that or just considered it.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2017, 06:38 PM »
Glue and staple the bottom in place. Run the staples though the side into the edge of the floor.

Tom

Thanks again Tom!

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2017, 06:41 PM »
Or use 1mm (or 2, in case you find 1mm is not stiff enough) aluminium sheets (which can nicely be cut with the TS to size) for the bottoms and screw them into the walls from below.
Make a rabbet the thickness of the bottom on the walls that leaves 1-2mm material toward the outside, to hide the bottom if you want it to not being visible.

Thanks Gregor. Am I correct that you are thinking of solid wood sides? Would think screwing into the edge of plywood wouldn't be good, but perhaps (hopefully!) I am wrong here.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2017, 07:01 PM »
Assuming steel wasn't an option, I would make the whole drawer out of 1/2" ply with the bottom glued and screwed on from underneath.  Ugly, but sturdy.   The inside front could also be eliminated, though this would complicate attaching the drawer face.   Slides can also be slightly recessed into a groove in the sides I think.   I don't remember if I've done that or just considered it.

Thanks @lwoirhaye.

I don't know that steel (galvanized) is out of the question. What do you have in mind there?

As to the all plywood with the bottom glued and screwed: same question I asked Gregor about screwing into the edge of plywood, although in this case there is also the glue. What size screws and what spacing?

And yes, I have already decided to forego the faux front, and to join the sides directly to the real front. It'll be extra work, and quite a challenge for me as I haven't had to do anything as precise as the subsequent alignment will be, wood working-wise.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2017, 07:02 PM »
Or use 1mm (or 2, in case you find 1mm is not stiff enough) aluminium sheets (which can nicely be cut with the TS to size) for the bottoms and screw them into the walls from below.
Make a rabbet the thickness of the bottom on the walls that leaves 1-2mm material toward the outside, to hide the bottom if you want it to not being visible.

Thanks Gregor. Am I correct that you are thinking of solid wood sides? Would think screwing into the edge of plywood wouldn't be good, but perhaps (hopefully!) I am wrong here. What size screws and what spacing?

Offline lwoirhaye

  • Posts: 68
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2017, 07:54 PM »
You could bend sheet metal of modest thickness easily on a cobbled-together brake in your shop.  The problem with metal sides would be attaching the slides.  If you want to go all-in you could figure out how to rivet them I suppose.  The front and back of the steel drawer box would be easy to make out of plywood.  If the box is modest in size for RV drawers I don't suppose a steel bottom would sag too badly.

In my junk I have this galvanized steel box about 18" long x 12" wide by 10" high.  It's about 18 ga. I think.  Looks home-made.  I've had it full of iron and steel junk on and off for years and while the bottom isn't flat when loaded,  it only rocks a little when put on a flat surface, empty.  I'm sure the bulging is less than 3/16".

Plywood takes and holds screws well in general from the edge as long as you pre-drill to the shank size of the screw.  I use screws with an aggressive single-thread pattern in plywood.  Look at the pocket hole screws Kreg sells.  They sell double-lead screws for hardwoods.  The threads are also not as big.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 550
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2017, 07:00 AM »
Or use 1mm (or 2, in case you find 1mm is not stiff enough) aluminium sheets (which can nicely be cut with the TS to size) for the bottoms and screw them into the walls from below.
Make a rabbet the thickness of the bottom on the walls that leaves 1-2mm material toward the outside, to hide the bottom if you want it to not being visible.

Thanks Gregor. Am I correct that you are thinking of solid wood sides? Would think screwing into the edge of plywood wouldn't be good, but perhaps (hopefully!) I am wrong here. What size screws and what spacing?
Depends on thickness/flexibility of the metal bottom sheet, thickness of the vertical walls and the quality of the material. With good plywood (that dosn't mainly consist of air pockets inside) it wasn't a problem so far to use these in 4x50 for 12mm plywood (bigger should wall thickness permit it, if needed pre-drilled 1mm smaller than the screws shaft diameter to avoid splitting) and spaced every ~6-8cm (depending on feel, I usually tend toward overkill).

For 9mm ply I would try the 3mm ones (in biggest length), build one sample piece and abuse it massively to find out if it'll hold together. Nevertheless, I would suggest you make the walls a bit thicker and place the rails into a groove (so the walls grow to the outside but you won't really waste useable space on the inside) to have more meat to connect the bottom into.

The linked screws will waste ~2-3mm below the bottom for the screw heads but have the benefit that they would hold against the sheet. To use countersunk ones (when needing that space) in this configuration I would increse the amount of screws to lessen the load on the individual one (so they don't pull through the sheet, aluminium is soft).

As I tend toward overdoing it (but I'm not in a mass-production environment, so the extra cost for screws and labor are no real issue for me) you might get away with less screws or could need more - YMMV. It's always a good idea to do science and screw some into a test piece to pull them straight out again, to get an idea how good they'll hold in your material. As is to build a prototype to test into oblivion before doing the real thing, when it is hard enough work to destroy it... it'll most likely last under normal use conditions.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 07:03 AM by Gregor »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2017, 06:11 PM »
If you are doing a few, what about using fibreglass and doing the whole box on a tapered male mould?
Then attach faces later.

The fibreglass should hold up to fatigue and vibration better than most things...

You would not need much of a draft angle on the sides.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2017, 04:42 PM »
Or use 1mm (or 2, in case you find 1mm is not stiff enough) aluminium sheets (which can nicely be cut with the TS to size) for the bottoms and screw them into the walls from below.
Make a rabbet the thickness of the bottom on the walls that leaves 1-2mm material toward the outside, to hide the bottom if you want it to not being visible.

Thanks Gregor. Am I correct that you are thinking of solid wood sides? Would think screwing into the edge of plywood wouldn't be good, but perhaps (hopefully!) I am wrong here. What size screws and what spacing?
Depends on thickness/flexibility of the metal bottom sheet, thickness of the vertical walls and the quality of the material. With good plywood (that dosn't mainly consist of air pockets inside) it wasn't a problem so far to use these in 4x50 for 12mm plywood (bigger should wall thickness permit it, if needed pre-drilled 1mm smaller than the screws shaft diameter to avoid splitting) and spaced every ~6-8cm (depending on feel, I usually tend toward overkill).

For 9mm ply I would try the 3mm ones (in biggest length), build one sample piece and abuse it massively to find out if it'll hold together. Nevertheless, I would suggest you make the walls a bit thicker and place the rails into a groove (so the walls grow to the outside but you won't really waste useable space on the inside) to have more meat to connect the bottom into.

The linked screws will waste ~2-3mm below the bottom for the screw heads but have the benefit that they would hold against the sheet. To use countersunk ones (when needing that space) in this configuration I would increse the amount of screws to lessen the load on the individual one (so they don't pull through the sheet, aluminium is soft).

As I tend toward overdoing it (but I'm not in a mass-production environment, so the extra cost for screws and labor are no real issue for me) you might get away with less screws or could need more - YMMV. It's always a good idea to do science and screw some into a test piece to pull them straight out again, to get an idea how good they'll hold in your material. As is to build a prototype to test into oblivion before doing the real thing, when it is hard enough work to destroy it... it'll most likely last under normal use conditions.

Thanks again Gregor. Some great ideas here, and I really like those screws.

... thinking about it ...

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2017, 04:47 PM »
If you are doing a few, what about using fibreglass and doing the whole box on a tapered male mould?
Then attach faces later.

The fibreglass should hold up to fatigue and vibration better than most things...

You would not need much of a draft angle on the sides.

Interesting idea, @Holmz. Alas, in optimizing each drawer because of the Chevy side wall, and to clear some plumbing under the sink, no two drawers are identical! And, alas #2, I'm really bad at fiberglass.  [eek]  But thanks; all these ideas are going to gel together (no pun intended) soon.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 253
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2017, 05:24 PM »
Hi all,

I'm about to build some drawer boxes for my Chevy based camper-van galley/pantry. Storage space is extremely limited and very valuable, so I'm trying to maximize it as much as possible. I only way that I have seen wooden drawer boxes made is with a dado near the bottom of the front, sides, and back - usually seems to be made for 3mm plywood, and leaving 1/2" below the dado. Front, sides, and back are usually about 1/2" (or even 5/8"). I am planning on using side mounted slides, and am wondering if there is anything wrong with:
1)  9mm Baltic Birch for the front, sides, and back, fastened together with 4mm Dominos (perhaps too risky, and front/back need to be 12mm?)
2)  12mm plywood (BB if I can get it) for the bottom
3)  a fairly large number of 4mm Dominos fully through the 9mm box to attach the bottom, which would then be flush with the bottom of the front, sides, and back

All of the above gains about 1/4" in width and depth of the inside of the box, and about 1/4" in usable height. I'm hoping that the all plywood approach negates concerns/issues with relative wood movement.

Thanks in advance for any advice, Dick

I’ve actually become a big fan of using mahogany for my drawers over Maple and Baltic Birch.  The stability of the mahogany allows you to build very tight fitting drawers that maximize the usable space inside the cabinet.  The blotchiness of birch and the wood expansion and movement on maple have made those two less appealing. 

Mahogany is also easier to refinsh if drawer is scratched or the finsh is marred.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2017, 05:30 PM »

I’ve actually become a big fan of using mahogany for my drawers over Maple and Baltic Birch.  The stability of the mahogany allows you to build very tight fitting drawers that maximize the usable space inside the cabinet.  The blotchiness of birch and the wood expansion and movement on maple have made those two less appealing. 

Mahogany is also easier to refinsh if drawer is scratched or the finsh is marred.

Thanks Steven. What thickness Mahogany? I would want to stick with the Cherry for the drawer front as that is what everything else in this "tiny apartment" is, although some of it is faux Cherry laminate. If I had had a choice, I would have bought one with the other option, Maple instead, for a brighter interior. However, what the drawer box is made of is not a concern here.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 253
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2017, 06:45 PM »

I’ve actually become a big fan of using mahogany for my drawers over Maple and Baltic Birch.  The stability of the mahogany allows you to build very tight fitting drawers that maximize the usable space inside the cabinet.  The blotchiness of birch and the wood expansion and movement on maple have made those two less appealing. 

Mahogany is also easier to refinsh if drawer is scratched or the finsh is marred.

Thanks Steven. What thickness Mahogany? I would want to stick with the Cherry for the drawer front as that is what everything else in this "tiny apartment" is, although some of it is faux Cherry laminate. If I had had a choice, I would have bought one with the other option, Maple instead, for a brighter interior. However, what the drawer box is made of is not a concern here.

3/4 inch Mahogany plywood is much easier to find.  Not every carries 1/2 inch.  If you want to use dowels or dominos to join the drawer than 3/4 is a better choice for added strength.

1/2 works well in miter joints, rabbits and dados.  I wouldn’t use 1/2 for domino and dowel based joints in a drawer. 

The downside is darker wood for your drawer.  The upside of Mahogany will be the ability to squeeze every useable cubic inch out of the available drawer space.  If you can find Brazilian Mahogany sheets you can get a much lighter finish that will compliment the Cherry wood very well. Brazilian Mahogany shares some similar red tones with Cherry wood. 

The other alternative is Beech.  Festool chose Beech for dominos for a good reason.  It’s very stable for indoor use.  It stains better and has a nicer grain patterns than Birch.  There’s also less defects in Beech plywood.  Beech also accept dyes much better than birch so there more options to change the color to your liking.

Beech plywood would be another good option.  People choose birch because it’s 20-35% cheaper than Beech plywood.

Here’s link on staining Beech. It makes beautiful drawers.

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-101/tips-tricks/finishing-tips-for-beech-woodworking-projects/


« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 07:04 PM by Steven Owen »

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2017, 07:46 PM »

3/4 inch Mahogany plywood is much easier to find.  Not every carries 1/2 inch.  If you want to use dowels or dominos to join the drawer than 3/4 is a better choice for added strength.

1/2 works well in miter joints, rabbits and dados.  I wouldn’t use 1/2 for domino and dowel based joints in a drawer. 

The downside is darker wood for your drawer.  The upside of Mahogany will be the ability to squeeze every useable cubic inch out of the available drawer space.  If you can find Brazilian Mahogany sheets you can get a much lighter finish that will compliment the Cherry wood very well. Brazilian Mahogany shares some similar red tones with Cherry wood. 

The other alternative is Beech.  Festool chose Beech for dominos for a good reason.  It’s very stable for indoor use.  It stains better and has a nicer grain patterns than Birch.  There’s also less defects in Beech plywood.  Beech also accept dyes much better than birch so there more options to change the color to your liking.

Beech plywood would be another good option.  People choose birch because it’s 20-35% cheaper than Beech plywood.

Here’s link on staining Beech. It makes beautiful drawers.

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-101/tips-tricks/finishing-tips-for-beech-woodworking-projects/

Thanks Steven.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5271
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2017, 04:11 PM »
You can use the 4mm Dominos. Just takes a little fore though and careful layout.

These pieces are 50mm tall, the top of the groove/dado is 15mm from the bottom.

I used the paddle Domino, referenced the bottom with the paddles instead of the top.

These are for the shop, going to spray them with KA+, which ever color I have enough of. Piece were made from drops of other jobs.


Tom

 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:14 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2017, 04:48 PM »
If you are doing a few, what about using fibreglass and doing the whole box on a tapered male mould?
Then attach faces later.

The fibreglass should hold up to fatigue and vibration better than most things...

You would not need much of a draft angle on the sides.

Interesting idea, @Holmz. Alas, in optimizing each drawer because of the Chevy side wall, and to clear some plumbing under the sink, no two drawers are identical! And, alas #2, I'm really bad at fiberglass.  [eek]  But thanks; all these ideas are going to gel together (no pun intended) soon.

I am watching this as I have similar plans.

Assuming that this thing is shaking like there is no tomorrow, then fatigue is your biggest concern.
That excludes Aluminium.
But it adds in Fibreglass, steel and wood.
The marine ply, screwed and glued may not be a bad option.

There are a lot of platforms with "slide out drawers" made with either that or MDF that seem to hold up... I have only glanced at them so not sure what they are  but they slide on plastic that looks a bit like an upside down ski base.

Another option that would not really helpful is saving time, but has some strength:
A laminated drawer like a canoe. and basically it is like fibreglass in that the fibres run in the direction needed for strength, but using thin wood strips that make a plywood composite. Then the wood can carries the stress gracefully around the corner. (Like your basic a cheap chair.)
That sort means that the cans lay on their sides as the corner has a fillet of material.

I think you need some requirements:
1) Water proof?
2) Corrosion?
3) cycles of fatigue?
4) etc... etc...

If you did the canoe style, then you would need the mandrel to lay them up on.
So whether it was fibreglass, hammered copper, or laminated wood, you need the same male mandrel.

I do not think you can do better than that... hence I would probably 'screw and glue' rectangles together...

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2017, 11:21 PM »
3/4 inch Mahogany plywood is much easier to find.  Not every carries 1/2 inch.  If you want to use dowels or dominos to join the drawer than 3/4 is a better choice for added strength.

1/2 works well in miter joints, rabbits and dados.  I wouldn’t use 1/2 for domino and dowel based joints in a drawer. 

The downside is darker wood for your drawer.  The upside of Mahogany will be the ability to squeeze every useable cubic inch out of the available drawer space.  If you can find Brazilian Mahogany sheets you can get a much lighter finish that will compliment the Cherry wood very well. Brazilian Mahogany shares some similar red tones with Cherry wood. 

The other alternative is Beech.  Festool chose Beech for dominos for a good reason.  It’s very stable for indoor use.  It stains better and has a nicer grain patterns than Birch.  There’s also less defects in Beech plywood.  Beech also accept dyes much better than birch so there more options to change the color to your liking.

Beech plywood would be another good option.  People choose birch because it’s 20-35% cheaper than Beech plywood.

Here’s link on staining Beech. It makes beautiful drawers.

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-101/tips-tricks/finishing-tips-for-beech-woodworking-projects/

Thanks again Steven, all good information.

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Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2017, 11:23 PM »
You can use the 4mm Dominos. Just takes a little fore though and careful layout.

These pieces are 50mm tall, the top of the groove/dado is 15mm from the bottom.

I used the paddle Domino, referenced the bottom with the paddles instead of the top.

These are for the shop, going to spray them with KA+, which ever color I have enough of. Piece were made from drops of other jobs.


Tom

Thanks Tom; as I said above, all good information.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2017, 11:29 PM »

I am watching this as I have similar plans.

Assuming that this thing is shaking like there is no tomorrow, then fatigue is your biggest concern.
That excludes Aluminium.
But it adds in Fibreglass, steel and wood.
The marine ply, screwed and glued may not be a bad option.

There are a lot of platforms with "slide out drawers" made with either that or MDF that seem to hold up... I have only glanced at them so not sure what they are  but they slide on plastic that looks a bit like an upside down ski base.

Another option that would not really helpful is saving time, but has some strength:
A laminated drawer like a canoe. and basically it is like fibreglass in that the fibres run in the direction needed for strength, but using thin wood strips that make a plywood composite. Then the wood can carries the stress gracefully around the corner. (Like your basic a cheap chair.)
That sort means that the cans lay on their sides as the corner has a fillet of material.

I think you need some requirements:
1) Water proof?
2) Corrosion?
3) cycles of fatigue?
4) etc... etc...

If you did the canoe style, then you would need the mandrel to lay them up on.
So whether it was fibreglass, hammered copper, or laminated wood, you need the same male mandrel.

I do not think you can do better than that... hence I would probably 'screw and glue' rectangles together...

Thanks again Holmz. These do not need to be waterproof, or highly corrosion resistant (although that's always nice). Fatigue is always an issue to consider on a "moving apartment".

You have some interesting options, but again, alas, way above my pay grade (and more importantly, skill!)

-Dick

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2017, 12:03 AM »
Hi all,

I want to thank all of you who have replied for your thoughtful ideas.

After much deliberation, I have decided to have my local HVAC shop fabricate the four pantry drawer boxes (12-1/4" wide, 16 to 21" deep) from 1/16" galvanized steel. The flat pattern for all four walls and the bottom will be in the shape of a fat cross, and they just love to use their plasma cutter for this sort of stuff. Normally I object to this, but in this case, once the four walls are folded up 90*, the corners will be welded, and will undo all the ragged edges (as long as the original rectangular pattern is sheared).

I will then pop rivet the slides to the sides, and screw the Cherry solid wood fronts on using the special screws with oversized heads that allow some adjustment (sorry, can't remember the name/brand of these right now). I'm ordering one of these recessed handles from Lee Valley: Cherry Pull #02G13.25, as well as one each in Red Oak and Maple, and I'll see which looks best against the Cherry planks I have. (sorry, trying to paste in the URL for these didn't work)

If the pantry boxes are stiff enough (and I think they will be), I'll have them do the four galley drawer boxes the same; these drawers are 18 to 19-3/4" wide, and 21-1/2 to 23-1/4" deep (I said I had to shuck-&-jive around plumbing and such!) If the pantry drawers are "iffy" stiffness-wise, then these wider ones will be made from 0.080" galvanized steel.

BTW, I've greatly increased the available volume over the last few weeks: my first drawer design was just under 8 cubic feet, and now I'm just under 11-1/2 cubic feet! I'll report back on my progress as things develop.

Regards, Dick

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 980
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2017, 12:32 AM »
@dicktill 

How about some pictures as you are putting them together and of the final product?

Thanks, Mike A.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 580
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2017, 12:36 PM »
@dicktill 

How about some pictures as you are putting them together and of the final product?

Thanks, Mike A.

Ditto

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1913
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2017, 01:28 PM »
Interesting thread, I look forward to the updates.
+1

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2017, 08:00 PM »
@dicktill 

How about some pictures as you are putting them together and of the final product?

Thanks, Mike A.
Ditto
Interesting thread, I look forward to the updates.

Wow, thanks for all the interest guys, especially now that for the most part I've decided to not use my woodwooding skills (such as they are) and tools. Dang, not a single Domino in sight.

I will post some pics as I go along, and there are a couple of other projects (shoe & map shelves in the aisle, and a cabinet in the bath) in the camper that will be made of wood, and should have some Dominos. But perhaps those should be posted in the "members projects" section? Perhaps the continuation of this one too, with a link posted here?

Regards, Dick

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2017, 08:07 PM »
... and screw the Cherry solid wood fronts on using the special screws with oversized heads that allow some adjustment (sorry, can't remember the name/brand of these right now).

Can someone help me out here? I've seen (recently) these screws with oversized heads that you put into an oversized hole in the drawer box (faux) front to attach the real front. You then have a bit of wiggle room/adjustment available.

Thanks Dick

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2017, 08:10 PM »
Depends on thickness/flexibility of the metal bottom sheet, thickness of the vertical walls and the quality of the material. With good plywood (that dosn't mainly consist of air pockets inside) it wasn't a problem so far to use these in 4x50 for 12mm plywood (bigger should wall thickness permit it, if needed pre-drilled 1mm smaller than the screws shaft diameter to avoid splitting) and spaced every ~6-8cm (depending on feel, I usually tend toward overkill).

For 9mm ply I would try the 3mm ones (in biggest length), build one sample piece and abuse it massively to find out if it'll hold together. Nevertheless, I would suggest you make the walls a bit thicker and place the rails into a groove (so the walls grow to the outside but you won't really waste useable space on the inside) to have more meat to connect the bottom into.

The linked screws will waste ~2-3mm below the bottom for the screw heads but have the benefit that they would hold against the sheet. To use countersunk ones (when needing that space) in this configuration I would increse the amount of screws to lessen the load on the individual one (so they don't pull through the sheet, aluminium is soft).

As I tend toward overdoing it (but I'm not in a mass-production environment, so the extra cost for screws and labor are no real issue for me) you might get away with less screws or could need more - YMMV. It's always a good idea to do science and screw some into a test piece to pull them straight out again, to get an idea how good they'll hold in your material. As is to build a prototype to test into oblivion before doing the real thing, when it is hard enough work to destroy it... it'll most likely last under normal use conditions.

Again, need a bit of help here. I'm not going to use these pan head Spax screws for this project, but they would be very handy for other projects. But I haven't found a source here in The States for them.

Thanks, Dick

Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 74
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2017, 08:48 PM »
McFeely's has some Spax pan head Phillips screws, similar but not the same as the linked ones;
https://www.mcfeelys.com/screw-fastener-web-store/mcfeelys-select-a-screw.html?brand_name=176&screw_head_type=36

McMaster-Carr might be a possibility too, though they don't ID brands.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#tapping-screws/=19wfwz1

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5271
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2017, 10:01 PM »
@dicktill

The Fastcap Powerhead. Here's the link----you have to scroll down to get to the sizes. I use the 1.25".

http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=57675&idcategory=11

Tom

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2017, 10:02 PM »
McFeely's has some Spax pan head Phillips screws, similar but not the same as the linked ones;
https://www.mcfeelys.com/screw-fastener-web-store/mcfeelys-select-a-screw.html?brand_name=176&screw_head_type=36

McMaster-Carr might be a possibility too, though they don't ID brands.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#tapping-screws/=19wfwz1

Thanks Pixelated! I can live with the Phillips rather than the Torx drive, what I wanted was the pan head and the narrow threads, so the ones from McFeeley's will be great. I do buy a lot of stuff from McMaster-Carr, but all their self-tappers that I have purchased are primarily for sheet metal, and have more "balanced" threads, more like machine screws in that the peaks are more equal in size to the valleys (machine screws being equal). I do use a bunch of their self-tappers on the wood in the camper, but I think the Spax type thin threads will hold better due to less destruction of the wood.

Regards, Dick

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2017, 10:05 PM »
The Fastcap Powerhead. Here's the link----you have to scroll down to get to the sizes. I use the 1.25".

http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=57675&idcategory=11

Tom

Bingo! That's the ones I saw (probably in a recent FOG post - maybe you posted it?), and I thought that they were Fastcap, but couldn't find them on their website. Of course it would have helped if I had remembered Powerhead!!!!

Thanks, Dick

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5271
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2017, 10:13 PM »
The Fastcap Powerhead. Here's the link----you have to scroll down to get to the sizes. I use the 1.25".

http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=57675&idcategory=11

Tom

Bingo! That's the ones I saw (probably in a recent FOG post - maybe you posted it?), and I thought that they were Fastcap, but couldn't find them on their website. Of course it would have helped if I had remembered Powerhead!!!!

Thanks, Dick

That was me.

Tom

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2017, 10:18 PM »
The Fastcap Powerhead. Here's the link----you have to scroll down to get to the sizes. I use the 1.25".

http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=57675&idcategory=11

Tom

Bingo! That's the ones I saw (probably in a recent FOG post - maybe you posted it?), and I thought that they were Fastcap, but couldn't find them on their website. Of course it would have helped if I had remembered Powerhead!!!!

Thanks, Dick

That was me.

Tom

In that case, double thanks Tom, else otherwise I wouldn't known about them!! [big grin] [embarassed]


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3613
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2017, 10:35 PM »
FWIW...galvanized steel cut with a plasma cutter will rust/corrode because it leaves a naked edge. A bit of humidity, a splash of vinegar, tomato juice, lime/lemon juice, even apple 🍎 cider will start the process. Also, randomly misplaced salt with a little humidity could start the process.   Think 15/20 not 3/4 years.

If this was my project, I’d start with some aluminum sheet.

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 454
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2017, 10:54 AM »
Should have read this thread sooner. If it were me I would be working with plastics, like ABS. I have a dream of building my own RV in a Transit platform. You can add wood faces if desired, or Corian, but RV's are known for moisture issues. Any exposed metal rusts. Wood warps. Plastic doesn't change dimensions and are unaffected my moisture. Heat could be an issue depending on vehicle location.

Plus plastic cuts with regular wood working tools :)

Otherwise I would probably buy a pan brake and build everything out of aluminum. Although even aluminum will corrode. Hmmm...starts making stainless seem more desirable. Don't underestimate how much moisture there will be. If you haven't already do your research on things like insulation as it need to be fully breathable. Many are using closed cell spray foam, or Thinsulate.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1913
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2017, 11:12 AM »
Wow, thanks for all the interest guys, especially now that for the most part I've decided to not use my woodwooding skills (such as they are) and tools. Dang, not a single Domino in sight.

I will post some pics as I go along, and there are a couple of other projects (shoe & map shelves in the aisle, and a cabinet in the bath) in the camper that will be made of wood, and should have some Dominos. But perhaps those should be posted in the "members projects" section? Perhaps the continuation of this one too, with a link posted here?

Regards, Dick

I like innovative solutions to problems regardless of materials and I'm very curious what unexpected things come up in your pursuit and how they get handled. I think Cheese is right to be thinking about rust so I'm wondering about painting/coating options. Only experience I have painting galvanized is conduit with house primer and paint, and it's held up well. Other guys here have likely done much more of it if you want to go that route.

As for follow up, if you start another thread please post a link here. That way I'll get an email about it.
+1

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2017, 12:13 PM »
FWIW...galvanized steel cut with a plasma cutter will rust/corrode because it leaves a naked edge. A bit of humidity, a splash of vinegar, tomato juice, lime/lemon juice, even apple cider will start the process. Also, randomly misplaced salt with a little humidity could start the process.   Think 15/20 not 3/4 years.

If this was my project, I’d start with some aluminum sheet.

Very good point @Cheese, thanks. Actually it wouldn't matter if it was all sheared, as the corners (where the plasma cuts would be) are going to be welded, and hence the galvanizing burned away. But the top edges of all the walls (which will be sheared) are bare too. I had thought about using aluminum (perhaps one or two notches up in thickness), but then there is the potential fatique problem. Perhaps with the galvanized steel boxes I could clean them real well, especially the welded corners, and spray paint them with Rustoleum clean metal primer, then a finish coat of Rustoleum (probably gloss white)?

Should have read this thread sooner. If it were me I would be working with plastics, like ABS. I have a dream of building my own RV in a Transit platform. You can add wood faces if desired, or Corian, but RV's are known for moisture issues. Any exposed metal rusts. Wood warps. Plastic doesn't change dimensions and are unaffected my moisture. Heat could be an issue depending on vehicle location.

Plus plastic cuts with regular wood working tools :)

Otherwise I would probably buy a pan brake and build everything out of aluminum. Although even aluminum will corrode. Hmmm...starts making stainless seem more desirable. Don't underestimate how much moisture there will be. If you haven't already do your research on things like insulation as it need to be fully breathable. Many are using closed cell spray foam, or Thinsulate.

Thanks Peter C.

Not to go too far off-topic, I should give you a bit of background. The camper is a 2010 Chevy extended van based Roadtrek 190P. A lot of stuff was poorly done by the factory, especially the insulation. So we've stripped it to the bare walls, added an inch of Thinsulate, and covered that with "Low-E", which is like Reflectix, but with a foam rather than bubble core, and is supposed to be more fire resistant. This layer is sealed as best we could by taping the joints and penetrations with thin aluminum duct tape so that it forms an effective vapor barrier - this will keep the relative humidity fairly constant inside in all seasons. I'm also almost totally revising the electrical and plumbing systems; as part of the latter, adding a backup gravity drain system for if the macerator fails. This involved making a custom drain fitting, and so I bought an expensive digital Steinel heat gun and had to learn to weld ABS. It is quite different from metal welding in that you do not get a nice molten puddle that you can move around, but rather a gooey mess that is hard to manipulate - it required quite a bit of going back, grinding out, and refilling to make it water tight. Not one of my better skills (not that metal welding is either), and although it is an intriguing idea, I just wouldn't want to consider making eight drawer boxes this way if this is what you had in mind. Oh, and ABS can be real gummy to cut.

But your last point is interesting: perhaps $tainless $teel is the answer.

Good luck with your homemade camper build. There are a lot of threads/blogs/forums on such things, a whole spectrum from very good to horrible. If you want some links and/or my opinionated advice, please contact me off line.

I like innovative solutions to problems regardless of materials and I'm very curious what unexpected things come up in your pursuit and how they get handled. I think Cheese is right to be thinking about rust so I'm wondering about painting/coating options. Only experience I have painting galvanized is conduit with house primer and paint, and it's held up well. Other guys here have likely done much more of it if you want to go that route.

As for follow up, if you start another thread please post a link here. That way I'll get an email about it.

Hi Paul G, thanks for your interest. I have painted galvanized steel before, and it turns out that the galvanizing is actually a better base than bare steel; perhaps the surface is a tad porous. I will try to follow through with pictures and links.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 550
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2017, 01:24 PM »
So we've stripped it to the bare walls, added an inch of Thinsulate, and covered that with "Low-E", which is like Reflectix, but with a foam rather than bubble core, and is supposed to be more fire resistant. This layer is sealed as best we could by taping the joints and penetrations with thin aluminum duct tape so that it forms an effective vapor barrier - this will keep the relative humidity fairly constant inside in all seasons.
Keep in mind that a vapor barrier will not only keep moisture out but also work in the other direction - and humans emit water vapor on a constant basis...

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2017, 02:11 PM »
Keep in mind that a vapor barrier will not only keep moisture out but also work in the other direction - and humans emit water vapor on a constant basis...

Hi again Gregor. Absolutely right, and the main function of this vapor barrier is to keep the moisture in; if it gets too high, we can quickly air it out with the windows, doors, and large roof fan. If you do not have an effective vapor barrier then the moisture passes through the insulation (possibly soaking it, although Thinsulate is fairly immune to this compared to fiberglass) and condensing on the inside of the van walls (which can obviously have horrible effects) - and it negates the insulation's effectiveness, as it bypasses around or through it - see attached photo. Keeping the humidity low inside the van in cold weather is not an option as my wife has severe dry eye syndrome.

270449-0

... but we digress from the topic ...  : )

Regards, Dick

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2017, 02:55 PM »
Reality Check! - I calculated what the eight drawer boxes would weigh in 0.062" steel, and it came out to a whopping 106 pounds.   [eek]  So I went down to the shop and flexed the bottom of one of my cheap Sears tool box cabinet drawers (17 x 22, very similar to my largest galley drawer of 19-3/4 x 23-1/4) and I could press down pretty hard without a lot of deflection in the drawer bottom. That Sears drawer is a mere 0.031", so I think I'm overdesigning here. Obviously using this thinner material will cut the weight to a more reasonable 53 pounds. Not so sure that they'd be able to weld the corners though without burning them away, so maybe we'd need tabs bent on then the corners pop-riveted together. (Of course, there is also the huge er, tiny, increase of volume with this yet thinner material, tee hee.)

BTW when I did press down hard on the Sears drawer bottom, I sure got a lot of deflection in the cheap drawer slides. I have just received some of the KV 8400 RV Full Extension with Stay Close slides, and this will not be a problem with them. In addition, I am very impressed with the latch mechanism on these. Hmm, perhaps they had RV's in mind when they designed these.  [big grin]

« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 02:57 PM by dicktill »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1913
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2017, 04:13 PM »
Liking the idea about switching to stainless steel to avoid the rust issues. Plus it's more food safe and easier to clean.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 04:24 PM by Paul G »
+1

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2017, 04:27 PM »
Liking the idea about switching to stainless steel to avoid the rust issues. Plus it's more food safe and easier to clean.

Correct, my acknowledgement that SS was probably the answer was buried in reply #49: "perhaps $tainless $teel is the answer".

Thanks, Dick

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 550
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2017, 04:38 PM »
Liking the idea about switching to stainless steel to avoid the rust issues. Plus it's more food safe and easier to clean.
Let's do a reality check:
- do you put your food into these drawers without any form of wrapping or box?
- do you see yourself use the vehicle in a prepper manner (loaded up to the top)?
- how many km (miles, whatever units) do you do per year on offroad tracks (or mismaintained roads) so will vibrations really an issue with a design built lighter than a tank?
- what is the projected lifetime of the build (how long will the vehicle last)?

Bottom line: will an overengineerd (heavy and expensive) design really have tangible advantages, compared to a simpler build?

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 454
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2017, 05:03 PM »
The more I think about it ABS is the right material. It glues super easy. You put everything together, than with a needle type tool inject glue into the joints. Cut a square strip of say 3/16"x3/16" and glue them inside every 90* corner. Depending on size of said drawers 3/16" might just be the thickness needed for the actual drawer box. No dados, no complicated designs, just build a box, yet strong as heck, and CHEAP! Plus light weight :)

Anyone got a reason ABS wouldn't work? I can't think of one.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2017, 05:25 PM »
Thanks again Gregor - my answers in red below - not sure what you're suggesting with this, please explain.
Let's do a reality check:
- do you put your food into these drawers without any form of wrapping or box?  No
- do you see yourself use the vehicle in a prepper manner (loaded up to the top)? I'm assuming you mean proper manner - yes, absolutely loaded
- how many km (miles, whatever units) do you do per year on offroad tracks  very little (or mismaintained roads  hey, most roads in The States are mismaintained! [big grin]) so will vibrations really an issue with a design built lighter than a tank? agree
- what is the projected lifetime of the build (how long will the vehicle last)? probably 10-15 years - the big question is whether we will last that long [big grin]

Bottom line: will an overengineerd (heavy and expensive) design really have tangible advantages, compared to a simpler build? absolutely not, and I'm trying not to overengineer it, hence the recent mention of .031" stock (galvanized or SS, aluminum would still have to be .062")

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2017, 05:32 PM »
The more I think about it ABS is the right material. It glues super easy. You put everything together, than with a needle type tool inject glue into the joints. Cut a square strip of say 3/16"x3/16" and glue them inside every 90* corner. Depending on size of said drawers 3/16" might just be the thickness needed for the actual drawer box. No dados, no complicated designs, just build a box, yet strong as heck, and CHEAP! Plus light weight :)

Anyone got a reason ABS wouldn't work? I can't think of one.

Sorry Peter, I hadn't thought of simply gluing the ABS - doh. I checked on McMaster-Carr, and they only have 1/8" or 1/4", not 3/16", but there may be other sources. I am concerned about having to have a reinforcement inside of the corners, as that messes up the storage volume. The only gluing of ABS that I've done is plumbing, and those joints are in shear, so not sure how well it works in tension. Not saying it isn't strong, I just don't know.

Thanks, Dick

Offline Holmz

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2017, 06:23 PM »
What is the fatigue strength of welded ABS?
(Making a single test drawer and loading it with cans - driving down a dirt road for 20miles - would be a start.)

I would think that fatigue would be the major consideration?

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2017, 07:05 PM »
What is the fatigue strength of welded ABS?
(Making a single test drawer and loading it with cans - driving down a dirt road for 20miles - would be a start.)

I would think that fatigue would be the major consideration?

... yes, and glued ABS might be even worse. Who volunteers? [tongue]

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Offline Holmz

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2017, 07:39 PM »
Along the line of metal... What about the same concept using pre made fibreglass sheet?
Then epoxy the corners with a piece of angle (metal or a fibreglass 90 degree), and maybe rivet the corners to prevent peeling the joint apart...
Or use Sikaflex.

Or see if there is something like 3/8 square stock with pre tapped holes to screw into for attaching sides to bottom?

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2017, 08:48 PM »
Along the line of metal... What about the same concept using pre made fibreglass sheet?
Then epoxy the corners with a piece of angle (metal or a fibreglass 90 degree), and maybe rivet the corners to prevent peeling the joint apart...
Or use Sikaflex.

Or see if there is something like 3/8 square stock with pre tapped holes to screw into for attaching sides to bottom?

Thanks Holmz, it's a possibility, BUT I'm making it an absolute design requirement that there is no internal reinforcement (unless extremely thin) - external is okay. Basically 3/8" square stock in each corner wastes 3/4" of width and 3/4" of depth, completely defeating the original goal of maximum volume - it's far worse than just using 12mm ply for the walls.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1913
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2017, 10:02 PM »
Liking the idea about switching to stainless steel to avoid the rust issues. Plus it's more food safe and easier to clean.
Let's do a reality check:
- do you put your food into these drawers without any form of wrapping or box?
- do you see yourself use the vehicle in a prepper manner (loaded up to the top)?
- how many km (miles, whatever units) do you do per year on offroad tracks (or mismaintained roads) so will vibrations really an issue with a design built lighter than a tank?
- what is the projected lifetime of the build (how long will the vehicle last)?

Bottom line: will an overengineerd (heavy and expensive) design really have tangible advantages, compared to a simpler build?

Not sure what is less simple about stainless vs galvanized, same build just different material
+1

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 454
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2017, 11:51 PM »
Not sure what is less simple about stainless vs galvanized, same build just different material
Stainless is a hard metal and will be a pain for the fabricator. The benefit is stainless can be TIG welded, vs few will want to weld galvanized metals, so pop rivets would be used, or find someone with a fresh air welding hood.

So this ABS "electronics tower", as I call it, was drawn up in CAD, then cut on a CNC. Drawer boxes are not going to require a CNC by any means. It has a Hawker Odyssey AGM battery inside, which along with GPS, radio, etc, weighs in at 30lbs. The handle is bolted to the side and doesn't even deflect when carried. Small square strips were cut on the tablesaw, and used to strengthen it by gluing them into all the corners. You could jump up and down on it without it breaking. It was built to take a beating while beach recovering the boat. Edges were routed on a router table to soften them.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3613
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2017, 02:43 AM »
Just a compilation of bits and pieces...

@Peter_C, nice construct on the electronics tower, it looks like it belongs.  [thumbs up]

Stainless would be be my preferred material, however, the stuff is tougher than nails to fabricate unless you have the tools and you find someone who has the experience in working with the stuff. If you can shear/cut/bend 18 gauge steel, using stainless reduces that tool’s capability to 20-22 gauge.

Also, using any tooling (drills, punches, wire brushes, grinding wheels, abrasive belts) that was previously used on steel products is a no-no. If you do, you’ll still have rust issues, as the iron molecules gathered from the previous steel machining operations will simply be deposited on the stainless, (unless it’s acid etched or electro polished) that’s one of the reasons that having stainless experience is a plus. Those guys keep their stainless tools/tooling separated from iron based tooling. I know of 2 local stainless fabricators that refuse to fab ANY steel project because they don't want to take the risk of cross contamination. They're USDA certified for the dairy industry.

I work with both stainless and aluminum...I prefer the finished results I get with stainless...however I prefer working with aluminum. Basically any of your woodworking tools can be used to fabricate aluminum. Consider it to be just a harder form of Jatoba.  [big grin]

Drills, counter sinks, carbide router bits, saw blades even band saw blades used for woodworking can all be used on aluminum. Stainless really does require cobalt tooling and machine tools that are capable of a reduction of 75-80% in rotational/lineal speed.

On a different front, purging the moisture from the interior of the vehicle will not be a trivial task. As Gregor suggested, as effective as moisture barriers are in keeping  moisture out...they are equally effective in keeping moisture in. The tighter you seal the enclosure, the more the issue arises. Add humans, pets, cooking, plants they all add to the problem especially in a smaller contained environment.

However, all of this is not to dissuade you...let the fun begin.  [cool]

On an entirely different front, if you need to paint 🎨 something on the exterior (or for that matter, interior) to prevent rust from forming, consider POR-15. It will actually encapsulate the metal in a protective polymer shell. Incredible stuff. You have a hard time chiseling the coating off the substrate.   [tongue]
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 09:49 AM by Cheese »

Offline Holmz

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2017, 06:00 AM »
?..

On an entirely different front, if you need to paint 🎨 something on the exterior (or for that matter, interior) to prevent rust from forming, consider POR-15. It will actually encapsulate the metal in a protective polymer shell. Incredible stuff.

Yeah Cheese...
Just got an older 4x4... The POR stuff is not cheap, but I got a gallon!

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 162
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2017, 06:40 AM »
I can’t really add anything to the general discussion, but as a side-note, if you have a moisture-problem, take some old socks (no holes!) and fill them with fresh cat litter.
It is purpose built for moisture extraction and works like a charm!

I always keep a couple of those in my car and have never had problems with interior moisture build-up ever since.
To avoid strange questions, store them out of sight, underneath seats etc... ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Offline Gregor

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2017, 09:17 AM »
To throw in another material: Plexiglass.
Moisture resistant, millable with the usual tools, perfect for glueup with itself , high strength, not that brittle, available in many colors (incl. transparent).

Offline Peter_C

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2017, 01:14 PM »
To throw in another material: Plexiglass.
Moisture resistant, millable with the usual tools, perfect for glueup with itself , high strength, not that brittle, available in many colors (incl. transparent).
Although I am a HUGE fan of lexan, it is not going to be as tough as ABS, albeit stiffer than ABS. There is not much flex in lexan before it breaks (Unless heated).

Offline Holmz

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2017, 05:02 PM »
To throw in another material: Plexiglass.
Moisture resistant, millable with the usual tools, perfect for glueup with itself , high strength, not that brittle, available in many colors (incl. transparent).
Although I am a HUGE fan of lexan, it is not going to be as tough as ABS, albeit stiffer than ABS. There is not much flex in lexan before it breaks (Unless heated).

Then we get back to the concept of forming them over mandrel using a vacuum or some press.  [big grin]

Offline rst

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2017, 07:44 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.

Offline Peter_C

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2017, 09:28 PM »
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2017, 10:17 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

Dang, we don't have an "eating popcorn" emoji   -dicktill

Offline Cheese

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2017, 10:20 PM »
Dang, we don't have an "eating popcorn" emoji   -dicktill

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 792
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2017, 10:22 PM »
[popcorn]

It's under [more].

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2017, 10:25 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

Dang, we don't have an "eating popcorn" emoji   -dicktill

Thanks @Cheese & @Bohdan

 [popcorn]

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2017, 11:48 PM »
Just for reference, Lexan is a brand name for a polycarbonate, a toughened plastic that is bendable and virtually unbreakable.  Plexiglass is a brand name for acrylic.  Acrylics are breakable and can only be bent by heating.  Polycarbonate surfaces, tougher, are also softer and scratch easier than acrylics.  ABS is a tough, soft plastic, and more bendable than acrylics... your vehicle dash and doors and virtually all interior surfaces (except in your Bently) are colored ABS.  This is not a Wikipedia source, I've been selling and fabricating plastics for the last 37 years and stock all of the above mentioned materials.
rst with your extensive knowledge, what would you recommend for building the drawer boxes? Thanks for the clarification on the different types.

@rst, we're all (well some of us are) waiting to hear what you propose for these drawers, please.

Offline fshanno

  • Posts: 913
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2017, 07:43 PM »
Kreg has the little pocket hole screws and jig insert and bit for 1/2" ply to 1/2" ply.  I've used them on several drawer projects and they work very well.  Even on large deep drawers 10" tall 28" wide various depths.  On small drawers they are the perfect.  And they are hidden of course by the drawer front.  They only have fine threads which are easy to strip on ply so I set my drill to a very low torque.  But they snug up nice an tight and hold well. 


If you attach the bottom with the sides flush instead of the bottom to hide the plys.  Use the 1/2" pocket screws.  Or you could miter it.  Mitering plywood yields a much stronger joint.  And now that I think of it I'm going to try that myself next time.   
The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2017, 02:55 PM »
Kreg has the little pocket hole screws and jig insert and bit for 1/2" ply to 1/2" ply.  I've used them on several drawer projects and they work very well.  Even on large deep drawers 10" tall 28" wide various depths.  On small drawers they are the perfect.  And they are hidden of course by the drawer front.  They only have fine threads which are easy to strip on ply so I set my drill to a very low torque.  But they snug up nice an tight and hold well. 


If you attach the bottom with the sides flush instead of the bottom to hide the plys.  Use the 1/2" pocket screws.  Or you could miter it.  Mitering plywood yields a much stronger joint.  And now that I think of it I'm going to try that myself next time.   

Thanks @fshanno.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2017, 12:39 PM »
Hi all,

I'm having my sheet metal shop make one drawer box out of aluminum to see how that works. The plan is to have the bottom of the box flush with the bottom of the drawer front. The sides/top of the top drawer front will overlap the casing by 1/8". The next lower drawer front would be 1/8" below the bottom of this one, etc.. So here's the new dilemma: I haven't planned for horizontal bars (stretchers? - sorry if I don't have the right terms in all of this) between the drawers, again for the sole purpose of maximizing the useable vertical height, and thus volume. So when you look straight on at the drawer fronts, they will be covering the casing, but there will be an 1/8" air gap with nothing behind between the drawer fronts. Is this going to be ugly or is it okay as is? Would I be better off to trim the drawer fronts 1/4" where they overlap the casing so that they were 1/8" inside the casing, for a more consistent look? I could give up say 1/16-1/8" of drawer depth and "push" the drawer fronts "back", i.e., recessed slightly too, if that would help. I don't want to recess the drawer fronts all the way to be flush as that would be too big a loss of volume, and the casing already exists, so bumping it out to make the fronts flush isn't an option.

Thanks in advance, Dick
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 12:42 PM by dicktill »

Offline Holmz

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Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2017, 04:39 PM »
I thought it was a Chevy based camper...? (I often am amazed at the use of lipstick and mascara, but points for trying are always given.)

I dunno... Are they held on the sides? They either need side suspension or bottom.
A euro frameless design goes better with the concept of losing no space... So the top and side would not overlap the face, like the bottom does not overlap.

That is the only way it will not lose volume.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2017, 06:40 PM »
I thought it was a Chevy based camper...? (I often am amazed at the use of lipstick and mascara, but points for trying are always given.)
Thanks (I think) @Holmz. Ah yes, the proverbial "lipstick on a pig"!  [tongue]   Well, you can see from the attached photos that this pig isn't too bad looking. Trying to not make it worse.

And perhaps, the photos and notes on them will give everyone an idea of what's going on here.
I dunno... Are they held on the sides? They either need side suspension or bottom.
A euro frameless design goes better with the concept of losing no space... So the top and side would not overlap the face, like the bottom does not overlap.

That is the only way it will not lose volume.
The drawers will be mounted with side-mount KV 8400 RV Full Extension with Stay Close slides which are very nice.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 06:43 PM by dicktill »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2017, 05:47 PM »
For that 'bow tie' beauty I would "SC" the whole concept, and just put in the Blum tandembox/metabox , which has everything already minimised and they do the everything but the plywood base.
The wider this face frames... the more volume is being lost...

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2017, 09:58 PM »
For that 'bow tie' beauty I would "SC" the whole concept, and just put in the Blum tandembox/metabox , which has everything already minimised and they do the everything but the plywood base.

I have some IKEA cabinets in my shop that either have Blum Tandembox drawers, or clones of them. I'm not impressed! The sloped sides are are low, waste space, and make it hard to pack densely (square corners are king); the underdrawer slides waste space (height being more precious than width or depth), and the whole assembly is flimsy - okay in my shop but not in a moving vehicle IMO. Wasn't familiar with the Blum Metabox drawers but they seem similar, albeit with straight sides and Euro slides (less wasted space) - but again, flimsy looking IMO, and not suitable in a moving vehicle. And I don't see a sturdy "stay close" feature on either, like I'll have with the KV slides previously mentioned.

The wider this face frames... the more volume is being lost...

Absolutely, which is why I won't have a face frame. If you look carefully at the annotated second photo above (galley 04), you'll see a double ended arrow roughly depicting the drawer width. I mentioned on the photo that I "removed shelves, doors, right hand inner panels, left & right front panels". That's two right hand panels, one which divided the two compartments (skinny one was for a Rube Goldberg table), and the other which was the cabinet side. That side was redundant with the pantry wall which will be where the side sliders will be mounted, a gain of another 1/2" of width. I failed to mention that the bottom (a gain of 1/2" of height) and back (1" to 1-1/2" gain of depth) of the cabinet are also gone! Going back to the double ended arrow: that's only really correct for the two middle drawers, which still need about a 4" chamfer in the left rear corner to clear the vertical run of the sink drain pipe, which I've pushed back as far as it can go. The upper and lower drawers are about 3" narrower to clear the two horizontal runs of the sink drain (i.e., a sideways "U"). BTW, the upper horizontal run will incorporate a Hepvo waterless trap (http://hepvo.com/), which eliminates the previous P-trap and air gap, again saving lotsa space. Have I missed any opportunities?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2017, 10:15 PM »
...I have some IKEA cabinets in my shop that either have Blum Tandembox drawers, or clones of them. I'm not impressed! The sloped sides are are low, waste space, and make it hard to pack densely (square corners are king); the underdrawer slides waste space (height being more precious than width or depth), and the whole assembly is flimsy - okay in my shop but not in a moving vehicle IMO. Wasn't familiar with the Blum Metabox drawers but they seem similar, albeit with straight sides and Euro slides (less wasted space) - but again, flimsy looking IMO, and not suitable in a moving vehicle. And I don't see a sturdy "stay close" feature on either, like I'll have with the KV slides previously mentioned.

...
[/quote]

I dunno, I have some tandembox coming, but I cannot speak from experience.
(Should know more in a few weeks.)

The inside of you vehicle looks pretty nice.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2017, 11:32 PM »
I dunno, I have some tandembox coming, but I cannot speak from experience.
(Should know more in a few weeks.)
Hope they work for you.
The inside of you vehicle looks pretty nice.
Thx, I'm hoping I don't muck that up! Appreciate your input(s).