Author Topic: Circuit requirements  (Read 7893 times)

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Offline Roll Tide

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Circuit requirements
« on: July 17, 2010, 04:05 PM »
New member, potential Festool 0wner?Planning to lay in two new circuits in my garage to handle my wish list (it?s big). My question?must one of the circuits be a 30A since I may like to run a QF 2200 off a CT (router plugged to the CT) using the auto start feature. At max speed/vacuum the two draw 28A. I don?t want to plug the router into one circuit and the CT into another?I always forget to turn the vacuum on! Is 12-3 adequate (code) for a 30A circuit?
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 04:40 PM »
First,  [welcome] to the Fog.  I am not an electrician, but in looking up some information, if you were to run a 30 amp 120 volt circuit, I believe that you would have to go to 10 gauge wire size.  If the wire is to be enclosed in conduit or there is a run of over 100 feet you might have to go even thicker.

I just came home from Festool and I can tell you that we used the 2200 plugged into the CT's and there wasn't an issue.  I don't think that you need to go above a 20 amp circuit.  I could be wrong though.

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Offline Rhett

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 04:43 PM »
If you are running a 30 Amp circut you will need to use 10 guage wire. It all depends on the length of the run though, but I would think 10 guage should be enough. 12-3 is more for 20Amp service.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 04:50 PM »
If you want to run a 30 amp circuit, I would run it in conduit with stranded 10 gauge wire.

That is really easy to run in conduit.  Or go with a 10-2 romex.

I have 20 amp circuits and and 20 amp recepts in my shop for my hand held power tools.

I have not had any real issues plugging my CT and any tool into it on site at some one's house.

Offline Chris Meggersee

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 05:00 PM »
I don't know if the others answered your question but you don't need any higher/special amp to run a vac + whatever Festool. For obvious reasons if they did need a higher ampage then it would be a problem for most people who use the average plug in their house. So Festool must have sorted this issue out and used some special tech in their vacs making it safe for average amps.

Although to be fair I'm not an electrician and nor do I own a 2200. Hope that helps.
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Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 06:54 PM »
You want a 20-amp circuit and receptacle.

The cord is designed to plug into a 20-amp receptacle. It also comes with a pigtail to allow you to plug it into a 15-amp receptacle if that's all you have.


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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2010, 07:29 PM »
Yeah for the Vac a 20 amp circuit is fine, but you can't run that 18 amp router with the Vac on a 20 amp circuit, like the original poster wants to do.

Heck, I have blown a 20 amp circuit using the CT 33 and the OF1400. I am sure once the OF2200 starts a deep cut it will blow a 20 amp circuit if it is used in conjunction with a CT on the same circuit.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:30 PM by nickao »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2010, 10:31 PM »
You are not permitted to install a 20 amp receptacle on a 30 amp circuit (NEC Table 210.21(B)(3) )


Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2010, 12:38 AM »
You are not permitted to install a 20 amp receptacle on a 30 amp circuit (NEC Table 210.21(B)(3) )



It is funny how you can put a 15 amp recept on a 12-2 20 amp circuit though.

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2010, 12:46 AM »
It has to do with the "thickness" of the individual conductors.  The 10 gauge can't wrap around the screws properly on a 20 amp receptacle.

Offline harry_

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 01:23 AM »
You are not permitted to install a 20 amp receptacle on a 30 amp circuit (NEC Table 210.21(B)(3) )



It is funny how you can put a 15 amp recept on a 12-2 20 amp circuit though.

If I am not mistaken, there are caveats to that.
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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 01:37 AM »
Harry, it's a little harder to get that 12 gauge wire on the 15 amp receptacles and switches compared to 14 gauge.  Just make sure your breaker or fuse matches the lowest amperage rating when doing the mix, example 20 amp (12 gauge) service with 15 amp receptacles = 15 amp breaker or fuse.  Another note for you guys:  Don't backwire your switches and receptacles ( those holes that allow you to just push in the wire instead of wrapping around the screws/lugs).  At some point the spring tension gives up and your left with a dead switch or receptacle.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 06:01 AM »
It has to do with the "thickness" of the individual conductors.  The 10 gauge can't wrap around the screws properly on a 20 amp receptacle.

Just make sure your breaker or fuse matches the lowest amperage rating when doing the mix, example 20 amp (12 gauge) service with 15 amp receptacles = 15 amp breaker or fuse.

The requirement has nothing to do with wire size, only circuit ampacity. The wire size for a circuit could be derated for many reasons resulting in a 20 amp circuit for a particular situation to require #10 conductor.

15 amp receptacles (plural) are permitted on 15 or 20 amp circuits (also described in NEC Table 210.21(B)(3) ). The same occurs at 40 amps, where either 40 amp or 50 amp receptacles are permitted on a 40 amp circuit. Aside from these two situations, the receptacle must match the circuit ampacity. There must be more than one receptacle on the circuit for this to be used, otherwise the receptacle must match the circuit ampacity. A duplex receptacle constitutes two receptacles, so a single duplex meets the requirements.

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 06:18 AM »
Thank you Rick.  I should also have stated that I was talking copper wire, not aluminum.



Ken

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 11:52 AM »
Okay, thanks for the posts. Seems to be a consenses if the current draw exceeds 20A, I will trip the breaker. A potential solution, and perhaps preferred, is to live with the 20A limit, crank the power down on either the CT or the 2200 and live with the available power. If I need more for some reason, plug one or the other into a separate 20A circuit. Looking at the draw on a 1400, I can understand how one post says he has tripped a breaker using his 1400 and a CT.
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Offline wooden

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2010, 12:24 PM »
No one expicitly mentioned this but the ampacity of a circuit depends on the voltage too.  You can use 12 gauge for most 240v 30a circuits.  Since then post is concerning 120v tools, I would use 8 gauge in your situation.  Will the run go through attic space?  If so, you generally need to go thicker on the wire gauge because of heat.  Same is also true when you start running a lot of circuits through a single conduit.  Just use some good common sense judgement when choosing the gauge wire for the circuit.  Be sure your receptacle will accept the gauge wire you choose.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2010, 12:54 PM »
No one expicitly mentioned this but the ampacity of a circuit depends on the voltage too.  

I am sorry Tim but that is not correct. The ampacity of a wire is based entirely on the amperage, not the voltage. Your example of being able to use #12 wire for a 30 amp circuit at 240 volts is not correct. The same wire size is required regardless whether it is 120 volts or 240 volts.

Back to the original poster; the amperage ratings on the tools are for the maximum rating. It does not mean the tool will be drawing this all the time, or even very often. The vacuum will protect itself from overload and the circuit will protect itself. You don't want to deliberately load a circuit to its maximum capacity, but if you do, the circuit will protect itself. If you end up tripping the breaker often, then you need to evaluate using a different setup. You'll probably find that it runs just fine as-is, because you won't fully load the router very often, not even when it is running at full speed.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2010, 01:02 PM »
Rick I think you may have missed his point or he stated it incorrectly, but I think I know what he means.

The same wire is NOT required for the same voltage if the current changes(which I think you alluded to - it depends on the current).  If you are using  20 amp device on a 110V circuit and then use that same 20 amp device on a 220 V circuit, reducing the current to 10 amps, than you can safely use the use wire for 10 amp, not wiring needed for 20 amps.

Festool itself does this with their pigtails. The 220V pigtails use a different gauge wire than their 110V counterparts because the 110V tool pulls more current needing a bigger(small gauge number) wire.

I found this out the hard way when using the pigtails for the 220V Festools(I ordered by mistake). I have since only ordered the Pigtails for 110V use with the bigger wires.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 01:06 PM by nickao »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2010, 01:49 PM »
The allowable ampacity of conductors depends on:
  • the material of the conductor (copper/aluminum/copper-clad),
  • the insulation,
  • the configuration (how many and in what - multi-conductor cable/direct bury/conduit/free air/cable tray),
  • the moisture (wet/dry), and
  • the temperature.

For shop wiring, 12 AWG copper with 20-amp receptacles and 20-amp breakers is what to use to run a Festool CT with tools plugged in. The circuit should also have GFCI protection.

It's that simple.

The only exception to that is if the home-run (distance to the distribution panel) is REALLY long & you aren't likely to see that in any normal situation.


Tom
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 01:50 PM by Tom Bellemare »
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Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2010, 02:00 PM »
I feel that this thread may be in violation of Forum rules regarding safety. There is too much misinformation in it to be anywhere close to safe.

There are good reasons why there are 4 years of engineering school to be a EE or 4 years of apprenticeship to be an electrician.


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Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2010, 02:03 PM »
I feel that this thread may be in violation of Forum rules regarding safety. There is too much misinformation in it to be anywhere close to safe.

There are good reasons why there are 4 years of engineering school to be a EE or 4 years of apprenticeship to be an electrician.


Tom

Any simpleton can read the code book.

Any home owner can do his own wiring.  It would be no one's fault but his if he screwed something up.

Some of you guys really worry too much about anything and everything that could hurt you.
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Offline harry_

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2010, 02:06 PM »
I feel that this thread may be in violation of Forum rules regarding safety. There is too much misinformation in it to be anywhere close to safe.

There are good reasons why there are 4 years of engineering school to be a EE or 4 years of apprenticeship to be an electrician.


Tom

unless I am mistaken that 4 years has been bumped to 5 (10,000 hrs)
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Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2010, 02:11 PM »
Maybe it is 5, now, Harry?


Quote
Any simpleton can read the code book.

Luckily, they can also buy fire insurance.

I hear you Warner... I was making a tongue-in-cheek point, while pointing out that most people aren't competent when it comes to wiring.


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Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2010, 02:17 PM »
Maybe it is 5, now, Harry?


Quote
Any simpleton can read the code book.

Luckily, they can also buy fire insurance.

I hear you Warner... I was making a tongue-in-cheek point, while pointing out that most people aren't competent when it comes to wiring.


Tom

The only difficult part for me is the load calcs but, that is why I have a good Sparky.

There is not much of a simpler task then wiring your garage or shop for power and lights and such.

I do agree if you have to ask what wire, recept, breaker and other questions you would be better using a phone to call a Sparky.

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2010, 02:27 PM »
EE is what I took in college.  Anyway, I know in New Jersey it's 5 years app. for commercial or residential license.

Tim, I believe you were thinking in the manner E=IR, but Rick is correct.  If you look at most residential wiring, it even states its rating is up to 600 vac.  It's about the amperage - has to do with the circular mils of the conductors and what they're made of.

If Roll Tide can get the router and vac to work off 220-240 vac, all the better.  Otherwise I'd go two 20amp circuits.

In the end, my advice echoes Warner's....call a licensed electrician in your area for help.


Ken

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2010, 02:34 PM »
We're on the same page, Mr. Warner.

The thing that I think is the most abused in the wrong hands is wire nuts. Wire nut splices are really commonly loose connections because a lot of people use them wrong.


Tom


BTW: I stand on the top of ladders commonly. I work circuits hot. I sometimes cross the road without stopping to look both ways.
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Offline Guy Ashley

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2010, 02:35 PM »
Bearing in mind how you guys live a wonderful litigenous society, I am amazed you even contemplate playing with sparks!

In the UK anything domestic needs to be signed off by a Part P qualified electrician, and try getting business insurance if your workshop wiring is not tested/approved/amended by the sparky as well.

Even tighter is Gas! Play around with a cooker or gas hob and you are not "GasSafe" registered then you get a ?30,000 fine.

Too many people in the past have thought, yeah I can do that, and then burnt down or blown up their own house, or even worse their clients!!!! [eek] [eek]
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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2010, 02:35 PM »
I know many, many electricians and they are great at wiring and know how to solve many, many issues.

Still they learn different material that I learned getting a BSEET.

An electrician knows way more on how to physically hook stuff up, conversely someone with an engineering degree probably knows way more theoretical and math than an electrician will know.

If you know codes you will also know many codes have nothing to do with safety at all, but to keep a common way  to do things so everyone does them the same. Just because it does not meet code does not mean it is not safe, it just means it is not the accepted way to do things. Still follow the codes and you will not have any heartache later.

Use your CT 33 with a router plugged into the CT and it will work, until you make a heavy cut and blow the fuse. If you think different you have simply not tried it. I put my router and CT's on different circuits for that reason long ago.

So though a 20 amp circuit is all that is required to run the vac with a router plugged into to it in reality it only works for turning the router on and only making very small cuts. Make a few deep cuts and forget it, the 20 amp fuse will pop, mine always did.

So the OP has a valid idea on trying to set something up to avoid this.

Doing electrical in your home is both safe and simple(and allowed by every county in IL)and is not rocket science like the unions and counties would leave you to believe. The funny thing is I have more experience and schooling then any inspector I ever met. An inspector is usually an underpaid county employee and most any licensed electrician should be trusted more than an inspector.

Actually, the inspectors do not even need college(at least when I was one) , all they do is read the same codes we as homeowners do. They pass simple tests any homeowner could as well if they studied the same packets the inspectors are given weeks before the exams.

Don't  be afraid of electricity just respect it and follow the codes.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 03:03 PM by nickao »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline joraft

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2010, 04:03 PM »

I feel that this thread may be in violation of Forum rules regarding safety. There is too much misinformation in it to be anywhere close to safe.



Geez, Tom, if we start removing all misinformation from the Internet, there will be a WHOLE lot of forums that are going to get a WHOLE lot smaller.
John

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Circuit requirements
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2010, 04:18 PM »
I feel that this thread may be in violation of Forum rules regarding safety. There is too much misinformation in it to be anywhere close to safe.


While misinformation is bad, sweeping it under the rug is even worse, because the people that believe in the misinformation will never know it is wrong until it is publicly discussed. Furthermore, misinformation is not limited to just weekend warriors making it up on their own. There are quite a few professionals in the field that don't fully understand what they do.

Treating electricity like it is a secret society that only a few can understand is what generally causes much of the misinformation in the first place.