Author Topic: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.  (Read 17746 times)

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Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2017, 08:57 AM »
That bit is not made to make a 20mm hole. It's made to make a hole that a 20mm fitting fits into so it needs to be a little oversized.
I get what your saying but the label clearly says 20mm ?

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Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 766
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2017, 10:08 AM »
I would expect that a fitting, designed to go into a 20mm hole, would be undersize so you could use a standard 20mm drill.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3148
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2017, 12:00 PM »
I know when it comes to twist drills, because a drill bit will always produce a hole larger in diameter than the drill bit itself, twist drills are usually manufactured to be slightly undersized.

For instance, take a 1/4" drill bit, it will probably measure .2485" to .2490", yet it will produce a hole with a diameter of .250" to .251" and as it becomes dull, the hole diameter will increase further.

I just measured a nominal 20mm Zobo bit and the diameter was actually 19.94-19.95mm.

I'd expect/assume that in manufacturing a Festool router boring bit, the tolerances/specs/practices used would be similar. [2cents]

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2017, 04:54 PM »


You be the judge!


Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2017, 05:28 PM »


You be the judge!
The other blade is smaller, this one is the widest point i could find

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2017, 05:37 PM »
Tomorrow ill gunna go down to Prime Fastener, they carry CMT bits. Ill take my mic with me, if they have a 20 mm in stock

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1783
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2017, 08:20 PM »
So I did what I should have before posting anything and you are correct. The spurs are bigger than the main cutting edges. Looking closely they are designed to essentially score the hole ahead of the main cutters. Mine measured about .0005 smaller than yours but it is well used at this point. The tool is certainly designed to cut a hole that allows 20mm hinge cups to slip in without effort. This makes it a sub-optimal tool for dog holes as is. There is a lot of backtaper in both the spurs and the main cutters so it could be altered with a diamond file but I would look for a different tool or approach. That said, I don't believe loose holes will impact accuracy much if you use dogs that have heads to keep them from falling through and then reference off the heads. Once the dogs are pushed against the wall of the hole it will be just as accurate as a tight fit.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2017, 08:45 PM »
So I did what I should have before posting anything and you are correct. The spurs are bigger than the main cutting edges. Looking closely they are designed to essentially score the hole ahead of the main cutters. Mine measured about .0005 smaller than yours but it is well used at this point. The tool is certainly designed to cut a hole that allows 20mm hinge cups to slip in without effort. This makes it a sub-optimal tool for dog holes as is. There is a lot of backtaper in both the spurs and the main cutters so it could be altered with a diamond file but I would look for a different tool or approach. That said, I don't believe loose holes will impact accuracy much if you use dogs that have heads to keep them from falling through and then reference off the heads. Once the dogs are pushed against the wall of the hole it will be just as accurate as a tight fit.
I agree totally but the label clearly says 20mm not sloppy 20mm!

I was going to make my own dogs but this was based on 20mm hole. So i guess ill get them coated to make up the slop.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 08:50 PM by overkill19 »

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1783
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2017, 11:26 PM »
So I did what I should have before posting anything and you are correct. The spurs are bigger than the main cutting edges. Looking closely they are designed to essentially score the hole ahead of the main cutters. Mine measured about .0005 smaller than yours but it is well used at this point. The tool is certainly designed to cut a hole that allows 20mm hinge cups to slip in without effort. This makes it a sub-optimal tool for dog holes as is. There is a lot of backtaper in both the spurs and the main cutters so it could be altered with a diamond file but I would look for a different tool or approach. That said, I don't believe loose holes will impact accuracy much if you use dogs that have heads to keep them from falling through and then reference off the heads. Once the dogs are pushed against the wall of the hole it will be just as accurate as a tight fit.
I agree totally but the label clearly says 20mm not sloppy 20mm!

I was going to make my own dogs but this was based on 20mm hole. So i guess ill get them coated to make up the slop.


I think the issue here is recognizing the job for which the tool is designed. If it were made to exactly 20mm we would probably be reading posts about dissatisfied users pounding hinges into undersized holes, and not being able to remove them if that were necessary. Maybe there would even be complaints about splitting. 20mm is the nominal size and the tool is marked appropriately for its intended purpose, which is 20mm hinges. I understand the desire to use the tool for your dogs but that is not what it was designed for.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2017, 09:08 AM »

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2017, 10:07 PM »
This one showed up today ! Thanks amazon!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3148
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2017, 10:18 PM »
This one showed up today ! Thanks amazon!

Hey, hey, hey...you're back in business. I'm interested in the results...

Offline Distinctive Interiors

  • Posts: 284
  • Modern Kitchen Specialist
    • distinterior.com
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2017, 06:45 AM »
Overkill,

The CMT router bit may be 20mm dia, but is it designed for plunging 20mm dia holes...????

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2017, 07:36 AM »
Overkill,

The CMT router bit may be 20mm dia, but is it designed for plunging 20mm dia holes...????
I think so, I'm somewhat new to this woodworking stuff. Id planned on plunging 1/4 or 3/8 first in attempt to keep final hole cleaner and less tear out.
At $30 compared to $90 for the festool one....cheaper experiment!
I returned the festool one. If this 20mm one does not work I'm going 3/4" its easier to make home made dogs with that sizing anyway.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:39 AM by overkill19 »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3148
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2017, 09:43 AM »
I returned the festool one. If this 20mm one does not work I'm going 3/4" its easier to make home mage dogs with that sizing anyway.

I was thinking about going down that 3/4" diameter road also, but I determined that the product offerings were pretty limited when it came to clamping options. And it also seems that all of the newer offerings of dogs, clamps or stops are offered in 20mm only.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2017, 11:54 PM »
3/4" round bar fits perfect inside
1-1/4"  .240 wall DOM tubing.

If i go 20mm its harder to get 20mm bar and id have to buy a 20mm end mill for milling machine.

Im kind of doing 2 tables. One wood one metal.

I bought the
http://www.multifunctionslab.com/
Plans and it proved pretty much impossible to find anyone who could cnc wood... i found one guy he  changed $280. I said sure! But that was 3 months ago and after 4 calls i gave up.
So i bought the 1400, track with the holes  and the attachments for drilling holes.
So my plan was to make my own wood top the same as the plan. And have a metal table made the same. We have a local lazer company that i use all the time. 
So long winded 20 mm is easier for the metal top  but 3/4 is easier to make my own dogs

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3148
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2017, 01:15 AM »
So whatever scratches your itch...I'd be interested in how well this works out...I've always been results driven.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1783
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2017, 06:26 PM »
Measure the distance between the inside edges of the carbide on the CMT bit. You need to predrill your holes at least that size, preferably more. That bit will not drill from solid. It can still do what you need with that first step.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Dick Mahany

  • Posts: 93
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2017, 07:19 PM »
I recently replicated my MFT top using a variation of the method that Toolify demonstrated in his YouTube video.  I used the Festool 20mm euro hinge bit in a Bosch 1618 router on the LR32 plate.  A few comments to offer:

1) The holes were indeed a hair larger than the stock MFT holes by ~0.05 - 0.10mm.
2) In a purely qualitative fashion using "feel" only, my Parf dogs did have slightly more play when inserted into the replicated top than the original MFT top, but it was inconsequential because when I slid a square up to them, they were just as stable.
3) I did get some burning.  This turned out to be largely from my shop vac that filled up and dust extraction became severely compromised.  A new vac bag solved that.
4) I also got a little burning when I didn't have the plunge depth set sufficiently to plunge completely through the 18mm substrate.  This left a wafer thin disk of MDF which jammed and spun with the Festool 20mm bit and caused burning when it didn't quite cut cleanly all the way through.  Simply setting the plunge depth a little deeper solved that.

Given the results vs the cost, I'm very happy with the results because I only use my MFT to machine wood, and the dogs seem to be just fine for squaring and setting references.  I will admit however, that I do like the "feel" of the dog fit better in the OEM top.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 07:29 PM by Dick Mahany »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2862
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2017, 01:04 AM »
For a little more than the cost of the Festool bit you can buy Peter's dog hole drilling kit with right sized bit included.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2017, 08:11 AM »
Measure the distance between the inside edges of the carbide on the CMT bit. You need to predrill your holes at least that size, preferably more. That bit will not drill from solid. It can still do what you need with that first step.
Thanks,  I figured that once it showed up. " thats the trouble with buying amazon"
Like i said thou i planned on step drilling anyway.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2017, 08:18 AM »
For a little more than the cost of the Festool bit you can buy Peter's dog hole drilling kit with right sized bit included.
Do you have a link? I tried a search with no luck.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2017, 08:19 AM »
I recently replicated my MFT top using a variation of the method that Toolify demonstrated in his YouTube video.  I used the Festool 20mm euro hinge bit in a Bosch 1618 router on the LR32 plate.  A few comments to offer:

1) The holes were indeed a hair larger than the stock MFT holes by ~0.05 - 0.10mm.
2) In a purely qualitative fashion using "feel" only, my Parf dogs did have slightly more play when inserted into the replicated top than the original MFT top, but it was inconsequential because when I slid a square up to them, they were just as stable.
3) I did get some burning.  This turned out to be largely from my shop vac that filled up and dust extraction became severely compromised.  A new vac bag solved that.
4) I also got a little burning when I didn't have the plunge depth set sufficiently to plunge completely through the 18mm substrate.  This left a wafer thin disk of MDF which jammed and spun with the Festool 20mm bit and caused burning when it didn't quite cut cleanly all the way through.  Simply setting the plunge depth a little deeper solved that.

Given the results vs the cost, I'm very happy with the results because I only use my MFT to machine wood, and the dogs seem to be just fine for squaring and setting references.  I will admit however, that I do like the "feel" of the dog fit better in the OEM top.

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Great stuff!! Thanks

P.S whats the bigger hole for in bottom left?

Offline DougB

  • Posts: 14
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2017, 08:24 AM »
For a little more than the cost of the Festool bit you can buy Peter's dog hole drilling kit with right sized bit included.
Do you have a link? I tried a search with no luck.

I believe he was referring to the UJK Parf Guide System sold by Axminster. Found here: UJK Parf Guide System
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 04:30 PM by DougB »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 973
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2017, 11:20 AM »
  • Purchase a replacement MFT "Plate" to be used as a template   (usually around $90
  • Clamp the template to your work-piece with a backer board underneath
  • Use 5/8" drill bit to remove the bulk of the material from the holes
  • Use a router with a 1/2" flush trim bit (bearing on top) to clean up the holes - leaving a perfect copy
Exactly! The fastest method by far. Added benefit - no burning and/or chipping on the underside.

Offline Dick Mahany

  • Posts: 93
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2017, 04:01 PM »


P.S whats the bigger hole for in bottom left?

I just happened to have a piece of MDF that had one rogue 35mm hole in it, so I decided to use it for the MFT replicated top.  Once it gets trimmed to fit in the MFT frame, the holes along two sides will be cut away.  Until then, I can use it as a slightly larger auxiliary top.

Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 42
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2017, 05:00 PM »
Drill bushing with a wrap of electrical tape so it will fit more snugly in the "template"
257009-0

The bushing protects the 'template' from damage, leaving plenty of room for the 1/2" router bit
257013-1

You need a couple of the longer dogs that you can use to 'index' the template when your making a top bigger than the "template"
257011-2

I found it easier to use a foot switch with my router - no plunging.  Just start and stop once it is in the hole


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 973
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2017, 06:11 PM »
Drill bushing with a wrap of electrical tape so it will fit more snugly in the "template"
(Attachment Link)
The bushing protects the 'template' from damage, leaving plenty of room for the 1/2" router bit
(Attachment Link)
That's clever idea with the bushing for centering.
I used 1/2 drill bit and 1/2 router bit. You can still push through the latter through 1/2 pilot hole, but I guess 5/8 is better.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2017, 05:09 PM »
Drill bushing with a wrap of electrical tape so it will fit more snugly in the "template"
(Attachment Link)
The bushing protects the 'template' from damage, leaving plenty of room for the 1/2" router bit
(Attachment Link)
That's clever idea with the bushing for centering.
I used 1/2 drill bit and 1/2 router bit. You can still push through the latter through 1/2 pilot hole, but I guess 5/8 is better.

I did the same thing...kinda!
I had my local Laser cutter build me my template. I took my 27mm od bushing to them and they zeroed it in. Had to grind the bushing flatter to match the aluminium thickness. Trimmed my cmt router bit to size to fit the parf dog a little better!

Grid is bigger but all 4 sides are square to the holes so it can be placed any direction.

The template cost me $180cad but ill get lots of use out of it. While i was at laser dudes he's blasting out a welding table top too! 3/4" plate and 19.98" holes zeroed to match the parf dogs! Ill post a pic when he's done... they only do heavy stuff when they have enough all at once!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 05:39 PM by overkill19 »