Author Topic: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.  (Read 18700 times)

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Offline lasttoleave

  • Posts: 29
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« on: June 24, 2015, 10:20 AM »
Hello,

I have a newly purchased 20mm Festool Router bit that I am hoping to make some different sized MFT style work spaces with. I have two Triton routers that I rate very highly, although obviously not quite up to festool standards.

I did some test holes with the 20mm bit and found the resulting holes were measuring 20.3mm and were rather rough with ridges on the internal face. I tried plunging in various stages on the slowest speed to reduce burning, but all of them ended up inconsistent and nowhere near clean or accurate enough to use on an MFT top. I'm using precision dogs and they fit the original MFT holes perfectly.

I highly doubt it is the bit itself causing the issue, but I have only seen a few people say the bit actually fits these bench dogs as well as the MFT. I can now only assume that it is play in the plunging mechanism of my router itself whilst I've never noticed any issue before, I expect that's because I nearly always plunge, lock the height and then do my routing. Here I am relying on the accuracy of the plunge mechanism not to cause any runout.

Everyone here seems to use Festool routers for this task understandably, and as much as I would love to purchase an OF 1010/1400 I don't have that kind of money at the moment. My plan was to get a template CNC'd with 30mm holes to match a guide bush, then use the guide bush and the 20mm bit to bore my holes, but I need to sort out the sizing first.

Assuming it's a bit of play in the plunging mechanism, theres nothing I can really do to improve this except use a smaller router bit and guide bush with a template machined up to result in a smaller router bit creating a 20mm hole.. but I think this will be much more harder to get as accurate.

Does anyone else think this is likely to be the cause? Or does anyone have a suggestion of something to try to improve the situation? I haven't read anyone here saying the bit creates anything other than finely bored holes.





Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3212
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 10:30 AM »
How is the router secured when you're doing the plunging -- could this be causing some slight movement?

Have you seen the Wood Rave template?  Picked one up to make my own bench, though have yet to use it:

http://woodrave.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

Hello,

I have a newly purchased 20mm Festool Router bit that I am hoping to make some different sized MFT style work spaces with. I have two Triton routers that I rate very highly, although obviously not quite up to festool standards.

I did some test holes with the 20mm bit and found the resulting holes were measuring 20.3mm and were rather rough with ridges on the internal face. I tried plunging in various stages on the slowest speed to reduce burning, but all of them ended up inconsistent and nowhere near clean or accurate enough to use on an MFT top. I'm using precision dogs and they fit the original MFT holes perfectly.

I highly doubt it is the bit itself causing the issue, but I have only seen a few people say the bit actually fits these bench dogs as well as the MFT. I can now only assume that it is play in the plunging mechanism of my router itself whilst I've never noticed any issue before, I expect that's because I nearly always plunge, lock the height and then do my routing. Here I am relying on the accuracy of the plunge mechanism not to cause any runout.

Everyone here seems to use Festool routers for this task understandably, and as much as I would love to purchase an OF 1010/1400 I don't have that kind of money at the moment. My plan was to get a template CNC'd with 30mm holes to match a guide bush, then use the guide bush and the 20mm bit to bore my holes, but I need to sort out the sizing first.

Assuming it's a bit of play in the plunging mechanism, theres nothing I can really do to improve this except use a smaller router bit and guide bush with a template machined up to result in a smaller router bit creating a 20mm hole.. but I think this will be much more harder to get as accurate.

Does anyone else think this is likely to be the cause? Or does anyone have a suggestion of something to try to improve the situation? I haven't read anyone here saying the bit creates anything other than finely bored holes.
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Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 11:24 AM »
You can read that the Festool 20mm hinge boring bit makes oversized holes here.

Offline John_

  • Posts: 159
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2015, 01:06 PM »
  • Purchase a replacement MFT "Plate" to be used as a template   (usually around $90
  • Clamp the template to your work-piece with a backer board underneath
  • Use 5/8" drill bit to remove the bulk of the material from the holes
  • Use a router with a 1/2" flush trim bit (bearing on top) to clean up the holes - leaving a perfect copy

Offline lasttoleave

  • Posts: 29
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2015, 02:39 PM »
How is the router secured when you're doing the plunging -- could this be causing some slight movement?

Have you seen the Wood Rave template?  Picked one up to make my own bench, though have yet to use it:

http://woodrave.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

Hello, I have seen the Wood Rave template but it is producing the holes that is more of an issue at the moment. for my test holes, I had the router secured to an oversize base plate which was clamped very securely to the MDF, so I am confident there was absolutely no movement between the base and the MDF itself.. which leads me to believe it must be the runout either caused by the plunging mechanism or maybe the collet/arbor itself?

You can read that the Festool 20mm hinge boring bit makes oversized holes here.

I am less concerned with the holes being oversized at the moment as the bit itself measures in at exactly 20mm, if not a hair under using two sets of vernier calipers, so I am confident that the design of the bit is not the reason, and I am doubtful it's a fault with the bit (yet).

  • Purchase a replacement MFT "Plate" to be used as a template   (usually around $90
  • Clamp the template to your work-piece with a backer board underneath
  • Use 5/8" drill bit to remove the bulk of the material from the holes
  • Use a router with a 1/2" flush trim bit (bearing on top) to clean up the holes - leaving a perfect copy

I tried this, with three different brands/sizes of flush trim bits and they each came out inaccurate/unsuccessfull. It also shaved the original holes ever so slightly towards one edge which meant my dogs were loose on the few holes I did test route.

At the moment I am just trying to get closer to the results others seem to be having. This was tested on 18mm MDF, the same as the MFT table. But I can't get the bit to bore a clean hole whatsover at the moment. Can anyone weigh in with their experience using this bit? It seems to take a reasonable amount of pressure to bore the hole, which appears to be unavoidable.

I would like to find out what is actually causing the runout, I might see if I can borrow a router from a friend and compare results.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2015, 03:17 PM »
I'm pretty certain, as "lasttoleave" stated, that it's not the bit.

There are a lot of variables, not the least are the router and collet. There's also how securely the router is located relative to the work piece and how planer the work piece is as presented to the router base.

The Festool 20mm boring bit, 491072, has a very sharp perimeter cutting edge that normally maintains a near perfect hole surface but if it isn't plunged straight down, it will open up the hole. The LR 32 set up works so well because it locates the router quite securely in the intended spot and a clean plunge is easy.


Tom
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Offline lasttoleave

  • Posts: 29
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2015, 03:36 PM »
I'm pretty certain, as "lasttoleave" stated, that it's not the bit.

There are a lot of variables, not the least are the router and collet. There's also how securely the router is located relative to the work piece and how planer the work piece is as presented to the router base.

The Festool 20mm boring bit, 491072, has a very sharp perimeter cutting edge that normally maintains a near perfect hole surface but if it isn't plunged straight down, it will open up the hole. The LR 32 set up works so well because it locates the router quite securely in the intended spot and a clean plunge is easy.


Tom

The 8mm collet is brand new as this is the first 8mm bit I have owned. But in order to verify this I have actually done some more testing:

Firstly, I removed the larger triton from the table and put the 20mm bit in the collet. I then inverted the router and protruded the bit just high enough to expose the visible shank. I got a dial caliper clamped to the router base and measured for runout. it's within 1 thou, so I am now certain it is not the runout of the actual collet/arbor.

I bored a few test holes with the larger router in the same manor, I screwed it to an oversized base plate and tightly clamped the base plate to the MDF, which was clamped to my MFT. I can't really see anything that about this set up that would yield such different results than others.

I have tried varying the motor speed and plunging speed with no real difference. The bit just seems to want to burn a lot, so I have to raise it back up to remove some loose chips and to reduce the heat before plunging back down, the hole clears in about 2-3 plunges, but it's a nasty result.

I should also mention that without the height lock on (for obvious reasons when plunging) I did notice a tiny amount of play in the smaller router, which I assumed may have been the cause, but the larger table mounted router has absolutely no detectable play in it whatsoever, probably because it has lived in the table since day one.

Should the bit be expected to cause burning quite this badly? I am running out of ideas on how to remove any more variables. I am running on the slowest speed but I can't work out why the holes aren't coming out clean.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2015, 04:20 PM »
How bad is the burning, and exactly what is it you are using for a work piece?

Can you make a short video of plunging a hole? It might reveal something???

I'm grasping for straws but have sold well over a hundred of these bits and never had anyone tell me they weren't happy. I have one myself that I use for demo's. It gets dirty pretty fast in certain materials and that can cause problems. Those problems start with burning and that never has a happy ending...


Tom
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Tool Home LLC
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Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3750
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2015, 05:03 PM »
...
I tried this, with three different brands/sizes of flush trim bits and they each came out inaccurate/unsuccessful. It also shaved the original holes ever so slightly towards one edge which meant my dogs were loose on the few holes I did test route.
...

In addition to runout, you would want to check the bit is normal to the face, and that the plunge is normal to the bottom face.
As the router also had a poor result there may be more than one thing happening.

If the "... ever so slightly towards one edge ..." changes when when the router is rotated 180 degress, then it is the co-linearity of the bit with the base & plunge.

Was the "Ever so slightly" tapered?

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1500
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2015, 05:17 PM »
I have bored at least 600 holes with that the Festool bit, LS32, and my 1400.  All the holes were perfect.  You may want to check your router, using a dial indicator against shaft where the collet is inserted to check for bearing wear.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3750
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 05:40 PM »
I have bored at least 600 holes with that the Festool bit, LS32, and my 1400.  All the holes were perfect.
...

I was having a hard time finding the part # for the 8-mm shanked 20-mm bit.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1500
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2015, 09:25 PM »
The Festool bit I used was from Bob Marino... 491072

Offline lasttoleave

  • Posts: 29
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 10:38 AM »
In addition to runout, you would want to check the bit is normal to the face, and that the plunge is normal to the bottom face.
As the router also had a poor result there may be more than one thing happening.

If the "... ever so slightly towards one edge ..." changes when when the router is rotated 180 degress, then it is the co-linearity of the bit with the base & plunge.

Was the "Ever so slightly" tapered?

I think I might have explained that situation poorly, but I was trying to copy an existing MFT top and I was routing with a template flush trim bit. I set the height of the router so that the bearing was exactly halfway into the template hole, and I was finding that the exposed cutter just shaved template enough to notice.

I have put the longest bit I have in and used a square on the base and checked at various angles but it all seems to be dead square, I've also used that bit to trim some hardwood and the results were dead square as well which would rule out any serious misalignment between the base and bit.

I've now tried the 20mm bit on 18mm MDF and 12mm plywood that the clamping sub base was made from, all have similar results with both routers.

How bad is the burning, and exactly what is it you are using for a work piece?

Can you make a short video of plunging a hole? It might reveal something???

I'm grasping for straws but have sold well over a hundred of these bits and never had anyone tell me they weren't happy. I have one myself that I use for demo's. It gets dirty pretty fast in certain materials and that can cause problems. Those problems start with burning and that never has a happy ending...


Tom

The burning is quite severe but it helps if I plunge in short bursts, but this seems to exaggerate the ridges on the internal face.

I don't think its the bit, and I can't really change much about the placement of the router itself which leaves inaccuracies of the router and its plunging action. I have a friend who owns the OF 1010. Do you think its large enough to cope with this job? Or would I really need to try and find an OF1400 to test this properly.

I noticed the bit gets nasty quickly in mdf but I've been cleaning it between tests.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2015, 11:10 AM »
The 1010 should handle it.


Tom
Tom Bellemare
Customer Svc
Tool Home LLC
www.tool-home.com
512-428-9140

Offline lasttoleave

  • Posts: 29
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2015, 11:44 AM »
The 1010 should handle it.


Tom

Thanks, I'll take the bit over soon and see how it handles it. Do you happen to know from yours or customer experience whether the 20mm hinge boring bit creates holes suitable for qwas/precision dogs or if it consistently leaves them oversize at 20.2mm?


Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2015, 02:16 PM »
'Sorry, but I don't know the answer to that. Perhaps a question for Steve Adams (Qwas). He seems to have pretty intimate knowledge of just how his products perform in various applications.


Tom
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Tool Home LLC
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Offline rst

  • Posts: 1500
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2015, 03:27 PM »
I use Precsion dogs and they fit snugly, with no slop.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3750
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2015, 04:27 PM »
...but it helps if I plunge in short bursts, but this seems to exaggerate the ridges on the internal face.
...


Are the ridges the full circumference? or they only 1/2 around?

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 772
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2015, 09:46 PM »
Set the router on its slowest speed and plunge as fast as you can in one go. See if that makes a different sized hole and eliminates the burning.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1500
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2015, 09:53 PM »
When I make my holes in MDF, I make my plunges one continuous plunge, adjusting the speed depending on bit size.  Even when metal machining, with the rigidness associated with that type work there is ridging, probably not as pronounced, but none the less present.  In metal working precise holes are made oversize and then reamed to final size.  Try slowing the speed, adjusting plunge rate and making a continuous plunge.

Offline lasttoleave

  • Posts: 29
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2015, 11:33 AM »
I use Precsion dogs and they fit snugly, with no slop.

Thanks for informing me of that, it's made me happier to persevere down this route further knowing other people have got achieved using the same tools.

Can I ask what model router you are using to get these results?

Set the router on its slowest speed and plunge as fast as you can in one go. See if that makes a different sized hole and eliminates the burning.

I have tried plunging relatively fast, but there seems to be a lot of resistance and burning almost immediately which makes me ease up slightly by instinct.

I will try some more tests using each router and maybe some time material to begin with (12mm MDF)

When I make my holes in MDF, I make my plunges one continuous plunge, adjusting the speed depending on bit size.  Even when metal machining, with the rigidness associated with that type work there is ridging, probably not as pronounced, but none the less present.  In metal working precise holes are made oversize and then reamed to final size.  Try slowing the speed, adjusting plunge rate and making a continuous plunge.

Thank you, I will try and incorporate these techniques. Do you have a lot of burning with your setup or are the holes pretty much clean? Would you mind describing the pressure you have to apply when boring your MFT holes?

I think I'll have to push pretty hard to bore the hole in one continuous plunge, but its worth trying. Does everyone use their routers on the slowest speed for this task?

Thanks.


Offline rst

  • Posts: 1500
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2015, 06:23 PM »
I'm using a 1400 and I do not get much burning, again...practice on some scrap to refine the process.

Offline lasttoleave

  • Posts: 29
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2015, 07:00 AM »
I'm using a 1400 and I do not get much burning, again...practice on some scrap to refine the process.

Great, I took my router apart and did a bit of maintanence. I cleaned up the bit so everything was fresh and took the advice everyone has offered and had some better results. I've minimised the burning and plunging faster in one continuous motion definitely made the ridges a lot less defined. Meaning the holes were cleaner and now measure between 20.1 and 20.2mm which is much better, but the dogs I'm using are still too loose to use accurately for alignment on the MFT.

I have used a dial caliper on the bit shank and can't measure any concerning runout, but it could still be the router causing some runout enlarging the hole when in use.

I have yet to borrow a Festool router to test with, but assuming for a moment that the festool router would produce holes that fit the Precision Dogs well, I am just concerned that I was planning to use a guide bush and a CNC'd template to locate the router and holes, but I am not sure this would be stable enough to bore the holes with absolutely no movement.

Would anyone reccomend trying an alternative method to create the holes exactly the right size, or is this described method mostly considered the best for MFT tops?

Offline greymann

  • Posts: 86
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2015, 01:48 PM »
To really echo part of John H. statement.

I use my 20mm bit in making tops (using my 1400 though).  I found by trial and error that using a slightly smaller 1/2 " shank straight bit, actually a Whiteside 25/32 to hog out the majority gave the best results.  Since the 20mm is just doing the last bit of sizing, there is no burning and all dogs I've tried fit great.

If something like this doesn't work for you, my bet is on the router being the problem.

Dick Perry
The difference between theory and practice in practice is greater than the difference between theory and practice in theory.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2015, 08:52 PM »
I think you are still experiencing runout issues. At first you had rough, oversize, burnt holes. You cleaned all the components and all of those characteristics got better. You may have reached the quality limit of your router/collet capabilities. I say this because I do not know the quality available to the Triton 8mm combo. If you get really good results with your buddy's 1010 then you know your Triton is a bit less capable than what others have been able to do with their Festool routers. My guess, for what it is worth, is the culprit is probably your collet.

If you can check runout at the cutting edges I think you will find more than .001. Also, look for the trailing edge behind the cutting edge possibly running out more than the cutting edge itself. This would cause the burning and the poor finish in the hole.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2016, 03:17 PM »
Sorry for digging up old thread, but heres my bit that showed up today! Im gunna try filling down the wide side edges to get closer to 20mm. I was surprised the difference between the two blades.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:20 PM by overkill19 »

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2016, 07:40 PM »
The measurement in your first picture looks invalid. I suppose it could be optical illusion but I don't think so. Turn your caliper blades at a right angle to the centerline of the cutter and rotate the tool through them to find the high spot on the cutting diameter and the non-cutting pads. I am sure they were ground together and should be the same diameter, probably closer than you can fully discern with calipers. If you have an indicator you could chuck up the bit in your router and pass all features by the indicator to determine how well it runs.

I would advise against trying to file the surfaces as they are carbide and pretty much untouchable to anything but a diamond hone, and you have no way to gauge your progress. If you rely on calipers they will deceive you. Better use as is and experiment with technique.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Bohdan

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Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2016, 07:49 PM »
If those readings that you got were accurate I would send the cutter back as 0.13 mm oversize on the cutter is excessive.

I made my own dogs and they fit into MFT holes and the ones that I drilled using a festool bit exactly the same.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2016, 08:40 PM »
The measurement in your first picture looks invalid. I suppose it could be optical illusion but I don't think so. Turn your caliper blades at a right angle to the centerline of the cutter and rotate the tool through them to find the high spot on the cutting diameter and the non-cutting pads. I am sure they were ground together and should be the same diameter, probably closer than you can fully discern with calipers. If you have an indicator you could chuck up the bit in your router and pass all features by the indicator to determine how well it runs.

I would advise against trying to file the surfaces as they are carbide and pretty much untouchable to anything but a diamond hone, and you have no way to gauge your progress. If you rely on calipers they will deceive you. Better use as is and experiment with technique.
The callipers are turned for the picture sake only! I measured that thing 10x

I actually set calliper and tried to pass bit from bottom up from several turns. They are defiantly two different measurements.
Ill pullout my dial calliper tomorrow and try and make a video.     

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2017, 12:35 AM »
That bit is not made to make a 20mm hole. It's made to make a hole that a 20mm fitting fits into so it needs to be a little oversized.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2017, 08:57 AM »
That bit is not made to make a 20mm hole. It's made to make a hole that a 20mm fitting fits into so it needs to be a little oversized.
I get what your saying but the label clearly says 20mm ?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 772
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2017, 10:08 AM »
I would expect that a fitting, designed to go into a 20mm hole, would be undersize so you could use a standard 20mm drill.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3261
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2017, 12:00 PM »
I know when it comes to twist drills, because a drill bit will always produce a hole larger in diameter than the drill bit itself, twist drills are usually manufactured to be slightly undersized.

For instance, take a 1/4" drill bit, it will probably measure .2485" to .2490", yet it will produce a hole with a diameter of .250" to .251" and as it becomes dull, the hole diameter will increase further.

I just measured a nominal 20mm Zobo bit and the diameter was actually 19.94-19.95mm.

I'd expect/assume that in manufacturing a Festool router boring bit, the tolerances/specs/practices used would be similar. [2cents]

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2017, 04:54 PM »


You be the judge!


Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2017, 05:28 PM »


You be the judge!
The other blade is smaller, this one is the widest point i could find

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2017, 05:37 PM »
Tomorrow ill gunna go down to Prime Fastener, they carry CMT bits. Ill take my mic with me, if they have a 20 mm in stock

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2017, 08:20 PM »
So I did what I should have before posting anything and you are correct. The spurs are bigger than the main cutting edges. Looking closely they are designed to essentially score the hole ahead of the main cutters. Mine measured about .0005 smaller than yours but it is well used at this point. The tool is certainly designed to cut a hole that allows 20mm hinge cups to slip in without effort. This makes it a sub-optimal tool for dog holes as is. There is a lot of backtaper in both the spurs and the main cutters so it could be altered with a diamond file but I would look for a different tool or approach. That said, I don't believe loose holes will impact accuracy much if you use dogs that have heads to keep them from falling through and then reference off the heads. Once the dogs are pushed against the wall of the hole it will be just as accurate as a tight fit.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2017, 08:45 PM »
So I did what I should have before posting anything and you are correct. The spurs are bigger than the main cutting edges. Looking closely they are designed to essentially score the hole ahead of the main cutters. Mine measured about .0005 smaller than yours but it is well used at this point. The tool is certainly designed to cut a hole that allows 20mm hinge cups to slip in without effort. This makes it a sub-optimal tool for dog holes as is. There is a lot of backtaper in both the spurs and the main cutters so it could be altered with a diamond file but I would look for a different tool or approach. That said, I don't believe loose holes will impact accuracy much if you use dogs that have heads to keep them from falling through and then reference off the heads. Once the dogs are pushed against the wall of the hole it will be just as accurate as a tight fit.
I agree totally but the label clearly says 20mm not sloppy 20mm!

I was going to make my own dogs but this was based on 20mm hole. So i guess ill get them coated to make up the slop.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 08:50 PM by overkill19 »

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2017, 11:26 PM »
So I did what I should have before posting anything and you are correct. The spurs are bigger than the main cutting edges. Looking closely they are designed to essentially score the hole ahead of the main cutters. Mine measured about .0005 smaller than yours but it is well used at this point. The tool is certainly designed to cut a hole that allows 20mm hinge cups to slip in without effort. This makes it a sub-optimal tool for dog holes as is. There is a lot of backtaper in both the spurs and the main cutters so it could be altered with a diamond file but I would look for a different tool or approach. That said, I don't believe loose holes will impact accuracy much if you use dogs that have heads to keep them from falling through and then reference off the heads. Once the dogs are pushed against the wall of the hole it will be just as accurate as a tight fit.
I agree totally but the label clearly says 20mm not sloppy 20mm!

I was going to make my own dogs but this was based on 20mm hole. So i guess ill get them coated to make up the slop.


I think the issue here is recognizing the job for which the tool is designed. If it were made to exactly 20mm we would probably be reading posts about dissatisfied users pounding hinges into undersized holes, and not being able to remove them if that were necessary. Maybe there would even be complaints about splitting. 20mm is the nominal size and the tool is marked appropriately for its intended purpose, which is 20mm hinges. I understand the desire to use the tool for your dogs but that is not what it was designed for.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline overkill19

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Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2017, 09:08 AM »

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2017, 10:07 PM »
This one showed up today ! Thanks amazon!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3261
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2017, 10:18 PM »
This one showed up today ! Thanks amazon!

Hey, hey, hey...you're back in business. I'm interested in the results...

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2017, 06:45 AM »
Overkill,

The CMT router bit may be 20mm dia, but is it designed for plunging 20mm dia holes...????

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2017, 07:36 AM »
Overkill,

The CMT router bit may be 20mm dia, but is it designed for plunging 20mm dia holes...????
I think so, I'm somewhat new to this woodworking stuff. Id planned on plunging 1/4 or 3/8 first in attempt to keep final hole cleaner and less tear out.
At $30 compared to $90 for the festool one....cheaper experiment!
I returned the festool one. If this 20mm one does not work I'm going 3/4" its easier to make home made dogs with that sizing anyway.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:39 AM by overkill19 »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3261
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2017, 09:43 AM »
I returned the festool one. If this 20mm one does not work I'm going 3/4" its easier to make home mage dogs with that sizing anyway.

I was thinking about going down that 3/4" diameter road also, but I determined that the product offerings were pretty limited when it came to clamping options. And it also seems that all of the newer offerings of dogs, clamps or stops are offered in 20mm only.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2017, 11:54 PM »
3/4" round bar fits perfect inside
1-1/4"  .240 wall DOM tubing.

If i go 20mm its harder to get 20mm bar and id have to buy a 20mm end mill for milling machine.

Im kind of doing 2 tables. One wood one metal.

I bought the
http://www.multifunctionslab.com/
Plans and it proved pretty much impossible to find anyone who could cnc wood... i found one guy he  changed $280. I said sure! But that was 3 months ago and after 4 calls i gave up.
So i bought the 1400, track with the holes  and the attachments for drilling holes.
So my plan was to make my own wood top the same as the plan. And have a metal table made the same. We have a local lazer company that i use all the time. 
So long winded 20 mm is easier for the metal top  but 3/4 is easier to make my own dogs

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3261
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2017, 01:15 AM »
So whatever scratches your itch...I'd be interested in how well this works out...I've always been results driven.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1784
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2017, 06:26 PM »
Measure the distance between the inside edges of the carbide on the CMT bit. You need to predrill your holes at least that size, preferably more. That bit will not drill from solid. It can still do what you need with that first step.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Dick Mahany

  • Posts: 98
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2017, 07:19 PM »
I recently replicated my MFT top using a variation of the method that Toolify demonstrated in his YouTube video.  I used the Festool 20mm euro hinge bit in a Bosch 1618 router on the LR32 plate.  A few comments to offer:

1) The holes were indeed a hair larger than the stock MFT holes by ~0.05 - 0.10mm.
2) In a purely qualitative fashion using "feel" only, my Parf dogs did have slightly more play when inserted into the replicated top than the original MFT top, but it was inconsequential because when I slid a square up to them, they were just as stable.
3) I did get some burning.  This turned out to be largely from my shop vac that filled up and dust extraction became severely compromised.  A new vac bag solved that.
4) I also got a little burning when I didn't have the plunge depth set sufficiently to plunge completely through the 18mm substrate.  This left a wafer thin disk of MDF which jammed and spun with the Festool 20mm bit and caused burning when it didn't quite cut cleanly all the way through.  Simply setting the plunge depth a little deeper solved that.

Given the results vs the cost, I'm very happy with the results because I only use my MFT to machine wood, and the dogs seem to be just fine for squaring and setting references.  I will admit however, that I do like the "feel" of the dog fit better in the OEM top.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 07:29 PM by Dick Mahany »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2017, 01:04 AM »
For a little more than the cost of the Festool bit you can buy Peter's dog hole drilling kit with right sized bit included.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2017, 08:11 AM »
Measure the distance between the inside edges of the carbide on the CMT bit. You need to predrill your holes at least that size, preferably more. That bit will not drill from solid. It can still do what you need with that first step.
Thanks,  I figured that once it showed up. " thats the trouble with buying amazon"
Like i said thou i planned on step drilling anyway.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2017, 08:18 AM »
For a little more than the cost of the Festool bit you can buy Peter's dog hole drilling kit with right sized bit included.
Do you have a link? I tried a search with no luck.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2017, 08:19 AM »
I recently replicated my MFT top using a variation of the method that Toolify demonstrated in his YouTube video.  I used the Festool 20mm euro hinge bit in a Bosch 1618 router on the LR32 plate.  A few comments to offer:

1) The holes were indeed a hair larger than the stock MFT holes by ~0.05 - 0.10mm.
2) In a purely qualitative fashion using "feel" only, my Parf dogs did have slightly more play when inserted into the replicated top than the original MFT top, but it was inconsequential because when I slid a square up to them, they were just as stable.
3) I did get some burning.  This turned out to be largely from my shop vac that filled up and dust extraction became severely compromised.  A new vac bag solved that.
4) I also got a little burning when I didn't have the plunge depth set sufficiently to plunge completely through the 18mm substrate.  This left a wafer thin disk of MDF which jammed and spun with the Festool 20mm bit and caused burning when it didn't quite cut cleanly all the way through.  Simply setting the plunge depth a little deeper solved that.

Given the results vs the cost, I'm very happy with the results because I only use my MFT to machine wood, and the dogs seem to be just fine for squaring and setting references.  I will admit however, that I do like the "feel" of the dog fit better in the OEM top.

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Great stuff!! Thanks

P.S whats the bigger hole for in bottom left?

Offline DougB

  • Posts: 14
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2017, 08:24 AM »
For a little more than the cost of the Festool bit you can buy Peter's dog hole drilling kit with right sized bit included.
Do you have a link? I tried a search with no luck.

I believe he was referring to the UJK Parf Guide System sold by Axminster. Found here: UJK Parf Guide System
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 04:30 PM by DougB »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2017, 11:20 AM »
  • Purchase a replacement MFT "Plate" to be used as a template   (usually around $90
  • Clamp the template to your work-piece with a backer board underneath
  • Use 5/8" drill bit to remove the bulk of the material from the holes
  • Use a router with a 1/2" flush trim bit (bearing on top) to clean up the holes - leaving a perfect copy
Exactly! The fastest method by far. Added benefit - no burning and/or chipping on the underside.

Offline Dick Mahany

  • Posts: 98
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2017, 04:01 PM »


P.S whats the bigger hole for in bottom left?

I just happened to have a piece of MDF that had one rogue 35mm hole in it, so I decided to use it for the MFT replicated top.  Once it gets trimmed to fit in the MFT frame, the holes along two sides will be cut away.  Until then, I can use it as a slightly larger auxiliary top.

Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 53
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2017, 05:00 PM »
Drill bushing with a wrap of electrical tape so it will fit more snugly in the "template"
257009-0

The bushing protects the 'template' from damage, leaving plenty of room for the 1/2" router bit
257013-1

You need a couple of the longer dogs that you can use to 'index' the template when your making a top bigger than the "template"
257011-2

I found it easier to use a foot switch with my router - no plunging.  Just start and stop once it is in the hole


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2017, 06:11 PM »
Drill bushing with a wrap of electrical tape so it will fit more snugly in the "template"
(Attachment Link)
The bushing protects the 'template' from damage, leaving plenty of room for the 1/2" router bit
(Attachment Link)
That's clever idea with the bushing for centering.
I used 1/2 drill bit and 1/2 router bit. You can still push through the latter through 1/2 pilot hole, but I guess 5/8 is better.

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2017, 05:09 PM »
Drill bushing with a wrap of electrical tape so it will fit more snugly in the "template"
(Attachment Link)
The bushing protects the 'template' from damage, leaving plenty of room for the 1/2" router bit
(Attachment Link)
That's clever idea with the bushing for centering.
I used 1/2 drill bit and 1/2 router bit. You can still push through the latter through 1/2 pilot hole, but I guess 5/8 is better.

I did the same thing...kinda!
I had my local Laser cutter build me my template. I took my 27mm od bushing to them and they zeroed it in. Had to grind the bushing flatter to match the aluminium thickness. Trimmed my cmt router bit to size to fit the parf dog a little better!

Grid is bigger but all 4 sides are square to the holes so it can be placed any direction.

The template cost me $180cad but ill get lots of use out of it. While i was at laser dudes he's blasting out a welding table top too! 3/4" plate and 19.98" holes zeroed to match the parf dogs! Ill post a pic when he's done... they only do heavy stuff when they have enough all at once!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 05:39 PM by overkill19 »

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2017, 01:02 PM »
The welding table top is done. The parf dogs fit very tight in the holes. Should be pretty handy!

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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2017, 02:23 PM »
The welding table top is done. The parf dogs fit very tight in the holes. Should be pretty handy!
Is that 20 mm thick steel?!!!

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2017, 07:44 PM »
The welding table top is done. The parf dogs fit very tight in the holes. Should be pretty handy!
Is that 20 mm thick steel?!!!

3/4" plate
I will be rounding all the outside edges.... that laser makes a sharp edge

Offline overkill19

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool 20mm Hinge Bit + Router Runout.
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2017, 09:49 PM »