Author Topic: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project  (Read 77501 times)

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Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2011, 12:43 PM »
I agree, this is probably a good use for the MFS, although I don't have one to lend K. and I don't believe he has one either, so this is another one of those great reasons to convince his wife he needs another tool - Festool for HER project.  [smile]

Ken:
I think he's half way there if it's for her, maybe she can buy it for him for fathers day.

It will be interesting to see if he can get some more requests for these...it wouldn't take that much more time to make 2-3 than one.
Tim

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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2011, 12:46 PM »
I agree, this is probably a good use for the MFS, although I don't have one to lend K. and I don't believe he has one either, so this is another one of those great reasons to convince his wife he needs another tool - Festool for HER project.  [smile]

Ken:
I think he's half way there if it's for her, maybe she can buy it for him for fathers day.

It will be interesting to see if he can get some more requests for these...it wouldn't take that much more time to make 2-3 than one.
Tim

As long as it doesn't confilict with any design infringements that Bruce Post may have on this.

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2011, 12:57 PM »
I agree, this is probably a good use for the MFS, although I don't have one to lend K. and I don't believe he has one either, so this is another one of those great reasons to convince his wife he needs another tool - Festool for HER project.  [smile]

Ken:
I think he's half way there if it's for her, maybe she can buy it for him for fathers day.

It will be interesting to see if he can get some more requests for these...it wouldn't take that much more time to make 2-3 than one.
Tim

As long as it doesn't confilict with any design infringements that Bruce Post may have on this.

Ah, ya I think it might be an issue if he was starting a business but giving them away?
Tim

Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2011, 01:16 PM »
Either way, I wouldn't want to harm the guy's business. He did some very nice work designing it and gives some good pre-sales information on his website that I wouldn't want to make him regret publishing. I think his price is fair given the complexity.

Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2011, 01:23 PM »
If Tool Nut is on the ball, the MFS will be employed on the project  [smile]

I've been thinking about the leg jig for a while. I'll need to try it in sketchup, but it IS possible I may need to make two templates - have to see.

I've seen some scarfing jigs made for boat building that give me some ideas for that ramp shape to taper the dado. The ideal jig would be one that is either usable for both sides or easily changed to work for both sides. Building two complicated jigs would be no fun and increase the chances of them not matching exactly.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 01:30 PM by awdriven »

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2011, 06:47 PM »
If Tool Nut is on the ball, the MFS will be employed on the project  [smile]

I've been thinking about the leg jig for a while. I'll need to try it in sketchup, but it IS possible I may need to make two templates - have to see.

I've seen some scarfing jigs made for boat building that give me some ideas for that ramp shape to taper the dado. The ideal jig would be one that is either usable for both sides or easily changed to work for both sides. Building two complicated jigs would be no fun and increase the chances of them not matching exactly.

Also, check out Gary Katz's jig for a tapered and fluted newel post for some inspiration.
I guess we're way beyond that one day build on this project. [big grin]
Tim

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2011, 06:51 PM »
Tim,

Maybe this could be a collaborative effort.  You make some parts, someone else makes a bunch of another part and so on.  Then you all just ship to each other.  [wink]

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2011, 07:48 PM »
Tim,

Maybe this could be a collaborative effort.  You make some parts, someone else makes a bunch of another part and so on.  Then you all just ship to each other.  [wink]

It's a good idea.
Actually, if I was Bruce I would call Ken Kelly and get him to make these for me!
Tim
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 12:52 PM by Tim Raleigh »

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2011, 07:49 PM »
Tim,

Maybe this could be a collaborative effort.  You make some parts, someone else makes a bunch of another part and so on.  Then you all just ship to each other.  [wink]

It's a good idea.
Actually, if I was Bruce I would call Ken and get him to make these for me!
Tim

 [thumbs up] [doh]

Online Peter Halle

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2011, 07:52 PM »
IKEA operates that way  [popcorn] [doh]
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline awdriven

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Re: Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2011, 11:13 PM »
I call not-it on making all those shelves :)

Thanks for the link, Tim. I have a couple of Gary's DVDs and have been a visitor to the jlc finish carpentry forum for a while.

Deciding if the jig should locate all the dadoes (comb shaped template) or if the workpiece should slide through the jig) is something I am debating now.

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2011, 10:08 AM »
I call not-it on making all those shelves :)

Thanks for the link, Tim. I have a couple of Gary's DVDs and have been a visitor to the jlc finish carpentry forum for a while.

Deciding if the jig should locate all the dadoes (comb shaped template) or if the workpiece should slide through the jig) is something I am debating now.

This project looks simple but it's not that easy.
Those dadoes are wicked little pieces of work, not only are they sloped but the sides are also angled. Unless you know someone with a  CNC, there is some hand work (176 cuts to be exact) or match up pair of dovetail for one side and chamfering bit for the other. 
Building a jig for a table saw and cutting the dadoes with a dado set, set to the correct angle is probably the fastest way to do this but I don't think it would be the safest.
Wicked....
Tim

Offline awdriven

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Re: Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2011, 05:16 PM »
I will post some jig sketches soon. I'm hopeful there will be little hand tuning.

Sketchup has been very helpful. I made and learned from a lot of mistakes. I "made" uprights in the jig and learned I could put the stock in the wrong way, figured out how to design the jig to change over between left and right, etc.

Offline Wood_Junkie

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2011, 06:06 PM »
I have followed this thread with an interest in the complex design (e.g. the geometry is crazzzy).


I don't want to derail the cool design discussion, but for lookie-loos interested in building one in a weekend... it just occurred to me that by sacrificing a little bit of the aesthetics (and save a ton of time) you could build the same functional piece, using square lumber (e.g. 4x4) for the corners of the pyramid.

This would remove the complicated elements of the compound-angled dadoes.  Just make the spacing marks on the pole.
Then you could use the Domino, MFT, some Qwas dogs, and using the guide rail as the Domino baseplate reference, with some stops on the guide rail... This would create an easily referenceable setup.  Mortise, mortise, slide.  Mortise, mortise, slide.

Or, you could still use sliding dovetails, but they wouldn't be compound angles.  The only angle would be to achieve the "tilt" of the slat.

Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2011, 02:55 AM »
Been working on possible jigs for a while this evening and running out of ideas. I'll e-mail the model to anyone who wants to bake their noodle a while thinking about how to do this efficiently ;p

The only feasible dado solution I see at the moment is something I think Tim had suggested. Come up with a jig setup that can hog out most of the material. (I am reasonably close to drawing something that could do this.) Then come back with maybe a Japanese pull saw and cut the angled shoulders. You could make some little guides that would help to angle the blade correctly. Still, that's 88 dadoes to tune up that way.

I'm seriously thinking about just using some Sipo dominoes for the job. (Since it's FOG, does that mean you won't say using Dominos is cheating?) I haven't thought much about the dominoes yet, but wonder whether assembly would be difficult. I guess I would glue up just one set of shelves at a time, possibly doing two opposing sides as separate assemblies first - then bringing together the two assemblies to complete the glue-up of the last two courses of shelves. I'd want to be careful not to distort the assembly - I was thinking ratchet straps may be a good way to pull the uprights tight against the shelf edges.

Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2011, 03:09 AM »
A couple renderings of the cutouts needed in the uprights -




Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2011, 04:30 PM »
Are there ~27 degree dovetail and chamfer bits out there that may work for the shoulders?

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2011, 08:55 PM »
This seems to be getting way too complicated.  After reviewing the parts photo again, I believe this has nothing to do with any special router bits or even a router.

It appears that Bruce set up a stacked dado on his table saw or on a radial arm saw.  Set it for the maximum depth of the groove shown, which is on the inside of all of the uprights.  He set the dado to a bevel.  Placed each upright flat on his table saw at an angle to the dado using his miter gauge or a sliding fixture and a stop prevented the upright from going all the way through the dado blade.  That's how he gets the beveled, tapered, stopped groove.  It's the changing depth of the groove on two adjacent uprights that causes the shelf/slat to wedge in tight when inserted.  Just make the slat's sides a slightly different miter angle than what the uprights are mitered at.  Decrease it by a degree or so and that'll wedge it tight in the grooves.  The bevel angle on the slats and uprights match.  You could leave the miters the same as well, but I think the slats would come out a little too easy.  That's why I'm thinking that the miter angles should be mismatched by just a degree or so.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 01:26 AM by Ken Nagrod »

Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2011, 11:54 PM »
Very well could be, Ken - I took your theme and considered for a while.

I thought this joint would be such a pain to make by pretty much any means - the reality has to be reasonably easy to produce. It wouldn't be economical to sell this if it took as much detailed manual labor as we think the 'perfect way' would.

I adjusted my imaginary jig to 7/8ths dado width, which would hog out the area (and then some) taken up by the sloped walls. This would allow the shelf to fit but leave some small gaps. How unsightly would they really be? The shelves are going to be filled with dirt and plants.

It seems to work! The front-visible gap is at the bottom. The gap on top may not be very visible from the front because the void/gap is hidden inside the dado.

I'm starting the build on Monday. I'll start out prototyping this and change over to Dominoes if needed. (Though I need to make sure I have an assembly plan in that case.)

Some more images -








Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2011, 12:59 AM »
I don't understand why you would have a visible gap if you follow the method I outlined?  The dados hide the slight miter discrepancy between the slat and the uprights if you decide to do mismatched miter angles.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 01:28 AM by Ken Nagrod »

Offline awdriven

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Re: Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2011, 10:22 AM »
Hey Ken, I was thinking similar on tuning the fit with the miter angle.

If you look in the first picture in my last post, the box shape is the cutting path of my imaginary router bit. It follows a ramp that tapers the depth of cut. It's also tilted a bit,which I did to make it more closely match the "perfect" joint. (like the bevel in  your dado stack)

I don't have a table saw that could be used with a dado cutter, but could work up a router jig that would get it done. (Probably slower though)

IIRC, the walls of the dado are about 27 degrees from the bottom.

The width and shape of the kerf taken by the dado cutter on a table saw gives another clue. You could bevel it and get the walls close, but the floor wouldn't be right. The depth of cut would be too deep on one side. That floor issue wouldn't be very visible, though.

You could also cut the shoulders with the TS55 set on a bevel, and finish removing the waste with a router. The jig that holds the workpiece would be the same.

Offline awdriven

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Re: Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2011, 10:17 PM »
I cut the uprights today after making a pair of prototypes out of Fir. The test fit was promising and the spread between the legs at the ground is within a few mm of the Sketchup model. I'll do the cross braces before I start the process of dadoing the uprights.

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2011, 10:45 PM »
I cut the uprights today after making a pair of prototypes out of Fir. The test fit was promising and the spread between the legs at the ground is within a few mm of the Sketchup model. I'll do the cross braces before I start the process of dadoing the uprights.

Nice! Hope it goes well.
Post some pictures when you can.
Thanks
Tim

Offline Festoller

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2011, 11:54 AM »
Well this doesn't require as much skills as the tower, but it serves the same purpose [cool]:





Take a look:

http://gizfactory.com/article/vertical-planters-from-h2o-designs/
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 03:46 AM by Festoller »
The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. -Douglas Adams-

Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2011, 09:33 PM »
Today I had a little road trip I had to make in the morning, but I got in a good 6 or 7 hours on the project today. I made all the half-lap joints today using the MFS. The learning curve was MUCH easier because of all the info posted by members here. I test fit the uprights with the cross braecs and the fit was NICE. I'm glad I took my time cutting the uprights because they're basically the backbone of the piece. I went to cut the cross braces and realized that I shouldn't have cut off 8 inches from that last cedar 2x4. I was short - darn.

I panicked, then remembered I had a cedar 2x4 left over from a project a few years ago. Whew, it was just long enough and even matched dimensions of the rest of the stock. my current stock.  I made more half-laps with the MFS and used a jigsaw to cut out the central interlocking half-lap joint. It was then that I threw away my good fortune of having the extra 2x4 because I cut out the wrong edge of one of the 2x4s. It caused the half-laps to be on the wrong side to mate with the uprights.

At this point it was getting late to run to the lumber yard, so I cut out the middle of the 2x4, cut a new piece to replace it, and tied the piece back together with 4 8x22x40 sipo dominoes. It's drying in the garage now. I'm not sure - maybe I'll just get another piece of cedar and re-cut it. What would FOG do? These cross-braces are covered with dirt once finished, so esthetics are less of a consideration than strength. I could also possibly drill a few pilot holes and drive a screw through each pair of domino joints?

Any advice on assembly methods? Domino and glue the uprights to the cross braces?

At the peak, where the four uprights meet - I have a ~2x2 block of cedar. I'm trying to figure out the best way to marry up the peaks of the uprights and this 'core'. Ken, if you're in the neighborhood again soon, this piece is something I may need a hand with - Was having a hard time getting a good piece nice and square on 4 sides for this. (After MFSing a lot today, maybe I can rig something up.)

Next step is to temporarily assemble the uprights to the base pieces and make a test shelf.

Next step is to temporarily assemble

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2011, 10:45 PM »
At this point it was getting late to run to the lumber yard, so I cut out the middle of the 2x4, cut a new piece to replace it, and tied the piece back together with 4 8x22x40 sipo dominoes. It's drying in the garage now. I'm not sure - maybe I'll just get another piece of cedar and re-cut it. What would FOG do? These cross-braces are covered with dirt once finished, so esthetics are less of a consideration than strength.
Leave it it should be fine. Like you say, you're covering it with dirt and this is a prototype.

I could also possibly drill a few pilot holes and drive a screw through each pair of domino joints?
I wouldn't do this. I would wait until I screwed up another piece of wood somewhere else (cause chances are I would) and then replace it.

Any advice on assembly methods? Domino and glue the uprights to the cross braces?

Depends on what you want it to look like. For me I would just glue and screw it together as the original was.

At the peak, where the four uprights meet - I have a ~2x2 block of cedar. I'm trying to figure out the best way to marry up the peaks of the uprights and this 'core'. Ken, if you're in the neighborhood again soon, this piece is something I may need a hand with - Was having a hard time getting a good piece nice and square on 4 sides for this. (After MFSing a lot today, maybe I can rig something up.)

Not sure I understand - what is the function of this 2x2 block of cedar?

Tim



Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2011, 10:56 PM »
Tim,

The block of cedar is the top cap to the uprights.


Today I had a little road trip I had to make in the morning, but I got in a good 6 or 7 hours on the project today. I made all the half-lap joints today using the MFS. The learning curve was MUCH easier because of all the info posted by members here. I test fit the uprights with the cross braecs and the fit was NICE. I'm glad I took my time cutting the uprights because they're basically the backbone of the piece. I went to cut the cross braces and realized that I shouldn't have cut off 8 inches from that last cedar 2x4. I was short - darn.

I panicked, then remembered I had a cedar 2x4 left over from a project a few years ago. Whew, it was just long enough and even matched dimensions of the rest of the stock. my current stock.  I made more half-laps with the MFS and used a jigsaw to cut out the central interlocking half-lap joint. It was then that I threw away my good fortune of having the extra 2x4 because I cut out the wrong edge of one of the 2x4s. It caused the half-laps to be on the wrong side to mate with the uprights.

At this point it was getting late to run to the lumber yard, so I cut out the middle of the 2x4, cut a new piece to replace it, and tied the piece back together with 4 8x22x40 sipo dominoes. It's drying in the garage now. I'm not sure - maybe I'll just get another piece of cedar and re-cut it. What would FOG do? These cross-braces are covered with dirt once finished, so esthetics are less of a consideration than strength. I could also possibly drill a few pilot holes and drive a screw through each pair of domino joints?

Any advice on assembly methods? Domino and glue the uprights to the cross braces?

At the peak, where the four uprights meet - I have a ~2x2 block of cedar. I'm trying to figure out the best way to marry up the peaks of the uprights and this 'core'. Ken, if you're in the neighborhood again soon, this piece is something I may need a hand with - Was having a hard time getting a good piece nice and square on 4 sides for this. (After MFSing a lot today, maybe I can rig something up.)

Next step is to temporarily assemble the uprights to the base pieces and make a test shelf.

Next step is to temporarily assemble

I'm in the area all week.   Talk with ya tomorrow.

Offline awdriven

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Re: Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2011, 11:15 PM »
Thanks Tim - I've been happy that I had few mistakes so far. Cedar IS very apt to tear out when routing if you're not careful.

The only 2x4 work left are the mitered base pieces. I'm going to wait on cutting those until final assembly.

The 2x2 is just the point where the uprights meet. I didn't want to have a pointy top. I needed a way to keep the inside of the top part of the pyramid open.

Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2011, 11:30 PM »
Awesome, also sending you an e-mail about that other project, Ken.

Here's an x-ray view of the top of the tower. Hmm, I need to figure out how to make the cap too.


Offline awdriven

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Re: Festool this - Strawberry Tower project
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2011, 11:49 PM »
A couple bad quality build pictures from my phone :