Author Topic: Jointing with HL850 bench unit  (Read 5187 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3623
Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« on: December 30, 2015, 10:20 AM »
I've been having some problems getting a perfectly flat edge on boards I'm jointing with the HL850 bench unit.  The ends of the pieces are consistently a little narrower than the middle.  I'm not trying to do long or wide boards -- all of them have been between 12 and 24" in length and less than 2" in width.  From a technique standpoint, I guess I could be pressing too hard at the beginning and end of the pass, such that the planer is taking off a little bit more, but I've tried to be conscientious about this, yet I still come out with sub-optimal results.  Is there a trick to using the bench unit?  Maybe a video demonstrating proper technique?

I should say that I have zero experience with standard jointing, as I don't have a stationary machine, and have either used my router table or the track saw for my jointing needs up to this point.
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Offline Holzhacker

  • Posts: 902
    • www.aic-chicago.com
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2015, 10:39 AM »
My 850 pretty much lives in the bench unit. I use it for similar purposes and think the 850 is a great unit for these purposes. I can get pretty good results but end up with some variance like you. Luckily for me I don't generally build furniture so my tolerances are a bit more wishy washy; usually deal with trim work.
I keep telling myself I will build an infeed / outfeed table that would surround the 850 and be about 2' long on each end. Unfortunately I just never get to it. With a good support set up the 850 could really shine. Also thought of just buying an extra MFT top and cutting out the center for the 850 to come up through. Legs to support the MFT top could be anything. The MFT top would also allow the use of dogs to help support long boards as a fence. Maybe I'll get around to this at some point.
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline danbox

  • Posts: 70
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2015, 10:59 AM »
Hi Edward,

I don't have the HL850 only the the EHL65 but I do have a workshop jointer.
First I would check the machine is setup correctly I don't know what adjustment is available for the 850 or if it can even be adjusted but best to check.

First I make sure that the blades are set correct, they should be installed level with the outfeed table.  On my workshop jointer I have an engineered straight edge that I use which is guaranteed flat and straight, I set the infeed table to zero and use the straight edge to check that all is okay, no dips or twists. I then lower the infeed table 0.5mm and check that it has lowered evenly using the straight edge and a feeler gauge. It is important that the infeed and out feed table stay parallel other wise to will get dishing.

Id check this on your machine the best you can. If all is okay then it might just be down to how you are using it.

I never take off more than 1mm at a time, if i need to take 6mm off then i'll do six passes at 1mm instead of two at 3mm. Light pressure only and as soon as there is enough material on the outfeed table to hold it safely I put my hands and pressure on this side of the cutters only.

Hope that helps and is not too patronising.  [big grin]

Dan.       

Offline tjskinny

  • Posts: 77
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 11:28 AM »
Hi Edward,

Very timely post, as I've got a similar technique problem.  The bench unit and planer work great and gives a nice clean surface but I get a few more "undulations" than what you are experiencing with longer pieces, ~2ft.  I know my issue is with the short infeed table and trying to feed the piece parallel across both infeed and outfeed tables.  And like you would love to see a video demistrating the proper technique.
Like you my tracksaw has been my jointer.

I will keep working on my technique and if something works for me I will pass it along.

You know this sounds like a job for Peter Parfitt. ;)

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1845
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2015, 03:16 PM »
@Edward A Reno III I don't own the 850 jointer, but have seen it recently at the Festool training facility in Indianapolis. One possibility may be the length of the table in the bench unit. I couldn't find specs online but the unit looks like it might be 12" long. I would be worried that, with any piece much longer than 12" it would likely not give great results; either the results you are reporting or other problems caused by the wood rising up off the table toward the end of the cut. With a stationary jointer, problems can be caused by the outfeed table being either above or below top dead center of the blade. Is there a setting on the accessory to raise or lower the outfeed table. You might check that. It is also possible that you are right that you might just be observing the accumulation of several runs over the jointer and uneven force downward on the wood.

Get the board as close to width as you can and with the fewest saw marks possible so that you can only run the edge over the jointer once. That should minimize your problem, but might not eliminate it.

If you were having good results with the router table method of jointing, I'd go back to that. I feel that is a superior method to using the 850 planer in its table, no matter how good a tool the jointer is. In my experience, a tool like the 850 just isn't a replacement for even a small stationary jointer.
Randy

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3623
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2015, 03:17 PM »
I've checked the sole for straightness at 0, but I will double check it when the depth setting is engaged.  Thanks.

I like the idea of a longer infeed table, as suggested by @Holzhacker  Have to see if I can rig something up on my bench.

EDIT: As for the comment about length by @grbmds I get what you're saying, though reports from other users suggest that lengths of up to 3 feet can be effectively handled by the bench unit.  Maybe I'm asking for too much precision?  I certainly hope not, and based on a couple of demos I've seen, no one has expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of the edge.

Hi Edward,

I don't have the HL850 only the the EHL65 but I do have a workshop jointer.
First I would check the machine is setup correctly I don't know what adjustment is available for the 850 or if it can even be adjusted but best to check.

First I make sure that the blades are set correct, they should be installed level with the outfeed table.  On my workshop jointer I have an engineered straight edge that I use which is guaranteed flat and straight, I set the infeed table to zero and use the straight edge to check that all is okay, no dips or twists. I then lower the infeed table 0.5mm and check that it has lowered evenly using the straight edge and a feeler gauge. It is important that the infeed and out feed table stay parallel other wise to will get dishing.

Id check this on your machine the best you can. If all is okay then it might just be down to how you are using it.

I never take off more than 1mm at a time, if i need to take 6mm off then i'll do six passes at 1mm instead of two at 3mm. Light pressure only and as soon as there is enough material on the outfeed table to hold it safely I put my hands and pressure on this side of the cutters only.

Hope that helps and is not too patronising.  [big grin]

Dan.     
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 04:53 PM by Edward A Reno III »
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Locks14

  • Posts: 291
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2015, 04:00 PM »
Hi Edward,

Very timely post, as I've got a similar technique problem.  The bench unit and planer work great and gives a nice clean surface but I get a few more "undulations" than what you are experiencing with longer pieces, ~2ft.  I know my issue is with the short infeed table and trying to feed the piece parallel across both infeed and outfeed tables.  And like you would love to see a video demistrating the proper technique.
Like you my tracksaw has been my jointer.

I will keep working on my technique and if something works for me I will pass it along.

You know this sounds like a job for Peter Parfitt. ;)

I think Peter Parfitt has been a little too liberal with the mulled wine this festive season. His most recent video is on assembling IKEA furniture!  [big grin] [blink]

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5468
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2015, 06:07 PM »
Hey @Edward A Reno III
I think the issue is mostly with the infeed table length as others have suggested. I just measured my Delta and there is 24" of solid cast iron to support the board before it can begin to contact the blade.

The next item to look at would be technique. It doesn't take much to change the amount of material removed especially if you're glueing the boards edge to edge.

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2537
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2015, 08:02 PM »
I get pretty accurate results with mine. I put pressure after the cut on the outfeed. 12 - 24 inch long pieces should work fine.

Online jobsworth

  • Posts: 5394
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2015, 03:58 AM »
Hey Scott,

Have ya considered making another video on the 850 showing the jointing technique?

I saw your video review of the 850 (which helped convince me to buy it)

But You really didn't elaborate on the jointing technique.

 Im having some issues jointing with it to.

Unless its a different Scott, then never mind [big grin]

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1845
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2015, 10:28 AM »
@Edward A Reno III How much difference in board width from middle to ends are you getting after jointing on the 850? (Sorry if I missed this information in your other posts but couldn't find it.) It also might be helpful to you to know what others consider good results. I find that what is acceptable to one person may not be to another. For some work, a difference of 1/32" in board width across it's length wouldn't matter. However, building a piece of furniture or edge to edge glue-up more accuracy and precision is required. Once I acquired a long-bed stationary jointer I realized how difficult it was to get acceptable results with my old short-bed 6" jointer even though that machine was made specifically for the purpose of edge and face jointing boards. There are definitely machine related variables in using a short-bed jointer, especially when the bed is as short as the 850 table accessory.
Randy

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3623
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2015, 02:00 PM »
@grbmds  It was between 1/32 and 1/64th, but it was on pieces intended for edge joining in a butcher block/cutting board construction, so those errors could quickly multiply across the width of the joined piece.  I ended up just abandoning the bench unit in favor of doing it on the table saw, where I made the final pass to take off a little less than 1/64th to get rid of any stray blade marks.  Sounds like I might be expecting too much from a unit with such a short infeed length, as @Cheese suggests.  I wish I had room in my shop for a real jointer.

@Edward A Reno III How much difference in board width from middle to ends are you getting after jointing on the 850? (Sorry if I missed this information in your other posts but couldn't find it.) It also might be helpful to you to know what others consider good results. I find that what is acceptable to one person may not be to another. For some work, a difference of 1/32" in board width across it's length wouldn't matter. However, building a piece of furniture or edge to edge glue-up more accuracy and precision is required. Once I acquired a long-bed stationary jointer I realized how difficult it was to get acceptable results with my old short-bed 6" jointer even though that machine was made specifically for the purpose of edge and face jointing boards. There are definitely machine related variables in using a short-bed jointer, especially when the bed is as short as the 850 table accessory.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 02:03 PM by Edward A Reno III »
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1845
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2015, 03:25 PM »
I was recently at a Festool class in Indianapolis and the use of the 850  came up in conversation. I think that those who have any experience with the 850 agreed it's a dynamite tool, but it's not really designed for jointing pieces for glue up or for a furniture piece. Like a lot of Festool tools they are made for on the job site use, so using it to plane down a door bottom or to fit a piece where needed, it works great. Some Festools may have been made for jobsite use and easily work in the shop for regular furniture making, glue ups, etc. The Domino, TS55, sanders, the MFT, and other tools I've never used certainly work well for the shop. I've never been more accurate and precise than since I've started using the TS55 for crosscutting on the MFT, the Domino, OF1400. I just wouldn't use the 850 for jointing. A short-bed 6" jointer would be preferable I think. I recently advised a friend of mine who is a woodworker not to buy the 850 for exactly the same reason. He believed he could use it to level off glue joints on glue ups. While I think it might work for that. I also feel there are better, less risky ways to do that. If you've had success with jointing on the router table and don't want to buy a stationary jointer, I'd stick with that. You're likely to get better and more consistent results. Meanwhile, I'd give anything to try the 850 and see how it would work in my shop, but I can't justify the expense and I don't usually buy things to just try them unless I have a real use for it.
Randy

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2437
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2015, 03:41 PM »
I have an 850 and it is, essentally, a powered medium length hand plane. I am fortunate to have both a big jointer and a big table saw. Both are well suited to producing perfect jointing. If I didn't have either big tool, I'd use a really long hand plane in a jointing jig.
Birdhunter

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2537
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2016, 03:23 PM »
Hey Scott,

Have ya considered making another video on the 850 showing the jointing technique?

I saw your video review of the 850 (which helped convince me to buy it)

But You really didn't elaborate on the jointing technique.

 Im having some issues jointing with it to.

Unless its a different Scott, then never mind [big grin]

Hey - I might have some video somewhere in my files and if not I could try to shoot some on my next project if it would be helpful. I love the planer and it is one of my favorite tools.

Online jobsworth

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Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2016, 06:42 AM »
I like it to. But I always seem to mess up jointing with it. I had a jet 6" jointer with a 5 ft bed and had no issues . But this little one drives me crazy. I sure when ya show your video ill slap, myself on my bald head and say something a bit more derogatory then doooohhhh.  [smile]
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 01:30 PM by jobsworth »

Offline fdengel

  • Posts: 854
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2016, 06:10 AM »
Isn't the bench unit designed to let you use a systainer sitting next to it as an extension bed?

I thought for sure I read that somewhere...

I have an HL 850 but not the bench unit yet.  It is something I am thinking of adding in the future, though.

Online jobsworth

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Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2016, 03:01 AM »
Yes you can use a Sys 2

Offline Sazerac819

  • Posts: 8
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2019, 12:10 AM »
Apologies for reviving this, but is it even possible to create edge to edge joints on boards greater than 24" without the bench unit? Sounds like it is pretty difficult even with the bench top jointing unit (not sold of course anymore). 

For example, I have a stationary jointer that joints very well, but I thought I would take a crack at seeing if the HL850 could create a perfectly straight edge joint for glue up purposes for table tops or large shelves. This is taking the planer and planing with the cutterhead over the edge of the board vs. running the board over the cutterhead. I found that with a flat reference surface, the provided parallel guide creates a nice square 90 degress across the entire cut, however... I was unable to create a perfectly straight jointed edge.

I found that without a stationary bench unit (never used the HL850 unit), it seemed to be quite impossible on boards exceeding 24" as there was more material taken off at the beginning and end of the planer cut creating gaps on the ends when the board was laid on a dead flat surface. This material had come off a proper jointer and was dead flat before going under the knife of the HL850. 

I tried various ways of doing it, more pressure on the front platten through the cut, more pressure on the back platten through the cut, equal pressure throughout the cut, longer dwell time during the middle of the cut to see if I was moving too quickly through the middle (creating the hump). The more passes, the more pronounced the hump.

I suppose the consensus is still that the HL850 is not really a long board jointing unit, especially in its fully mobile form?

Has anybody been able to free plane a long board (3 ft plus) with the HL850 and create a perfectly straight edge for edge to edge glue-ups without considerable effort or a lot of trial and error? If so, would you be willing to share your technique?

Cheers,
John






Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3731
Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2019, 09:53 AM »
@Sazerac819  no, it’s not really possible to joint two sticks well enough to join them unless they are small and flexible enough that clamping will force them together despite the imperfect result of running through the planer, with or without the bench unit.

The problem with virtually all portable planes like this (HL 850 is much better than most) is that the front shoe is on a flexible mount so it is impossible to maintain a co-planer relationship between the indeed and outfeed tables.

You can get a smooth fairly straight edge on a stick such that it looks good but to joint two boards for perfect mating requires exceptional good luck (in addition to exceptional skill). Something you should be able to do easily on a well adjusted stationary jointer.

Online jobsworth

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Re: Jointing with HL850 bench unit
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2019, 03:48 PM »
I was playing with my 850 today. Because of this revived old thread I thought Id give jointing with 850 another shot. I talked to Don Ware at Anderson about how to eliminate snipe. He told me and it reminded me of a old trick I used a long time ago, set the board on end clamp a couple pieces of sacrificial wood to each end and plane it. I did use the accessory fence which I highly recommend .

Because of this thread and since I bought my planer used (a long time ago but used) I thought about the  adjustment so the blade will be set at zero and even with the base. I went to Vegas earlier this week and as my way I stop by and harass Steve a bit while Im there. To my surprise Alan was there. He said he is now a trainer there helping Steve out. Steve was runing some dealer training so Alan and I had a chat. I asked him about the adj and he explained to me how to adj it. So I checked mine and sure enough it was out of adj as the blade was touching my test piece of wood at zero. I adjusted it and then edge jointed a piece of 4ft long 3/4 birch I had lying around and it did a bang up job. I set the blade debth at .2mm. I checked the jointed edge with my small 2" WP square ad the joint was dead nuts on.

Hope ths helps anyone who is thinking about doing the same thing I did.