Author Topic: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks  (Read 21137 times)

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Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2015, 06:41 PM »
Joe,

Your setup looks great!  I ran to my local lumberyard and picked up a pair of Woodpeckers feather boards.

I think I will also make a sacrificial fence out of 1/2" that I can use for my first pass, then I can remove and take a 2nd pass without hogging it out all in one pass.

I plan to set the downward pressing feather board just past the cutter, and another on the table pressing towards the cutter.  If I can figure out a T-Track but that will fit the CMS's smaller T-channel on the bevel.  The fence side's channel is bigger and accepts the nut from the Woodpeckers hardware, but the bevel's T-channel is smaller. 

Hopefully I can keep the pressure good in front of the cutter with a push block and push stick (certainly more feather boards would help, but I am trying to keep costs down after my recent Festool binge).

Feedback is welcome.  Anybody have suggestions for the best way to use the smaller t-track (the larger T-track in the fence is perfect for festool clamps etc., not sure what folks use the smaller size t-track for), or how to attach feather boards on the CMS.

See pictures below:

Photo of my tentative feather board placement, and the CMS miter gauge aimed towards the cutter


Picture of the CMS's smaller T-track-  (does Festool sell a rectangular shaped nut that slides in here?)






I'm not going to knock the CMS or the 1400 (my favorite handheld but underpowered for what you are doing) but it sounds like they may be part of the problem.

I have a Woodpecker table and router lift with a Hitachi 3-1/4HP variable speed router.  My lock miter bit is an Amana.  I have hogged out long lengths of soft stock (Red Cedar) for some exterior trim.  I added a lot of extra featherboards and had to leave extra length so I could cut off the tail end of the boards if things got squirrely as I exited the cut.  I made it work but the results were not perfect (which is my always my goal).
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

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Offline WoodWhisperer

  • Posts: 175
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2015, 09:58 AM »
Here is a pic of how I ran my vertical pieces through. It worked pretty good. Still got some tear out. I ran a lot of material through it for the project I was going. I would say u need to run probably 15-20% extra just to make sure up have enough good stock to use.
TS55|TS75|OF1400|EC-ETS125|ETS125|MFT/3|
2-MIDI|Kapex|Carvex PS420| |Domino700XL|Compact Cleaning Kit|Waiting on my PRO 5.....

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3327
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2015, 11:08 AM »
WoodWhisperer, I like the secondary fence for vertical pieces.  My challenge with the CMS is that when I run pieces vertically, the reducing rings around the bit on the CMS are slightly lower than the deck of the CMS, so if I'm routing the narrow end of a 3" x 18" piece, for example, the workpiece tends to go off-perpendicular as it passes through the bit.  Routing pieces on the long side isn't a problem; it's the short side. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2015, 09:26 AM »

Nice!


Here is a pic of how I ran my vertical pieces through. It worked pretty good. Still got some tear out. I ran a lot of material through it for the project I was going. I would say u need to run probably 15-20% extra just to make sure up have enough good stock to use.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2015, 08:45 PM »
Update.  Thanks for all the feedback!  I tried another setup that I learned from Peter Parfitt on this other thread thread: http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/cms-ge-feather-board/msg374222/#msg374222

  I also added some scrap 1/2" baltic birch plywood as a zero clearance fence for the first pass.  Night and day from my previous setup.

After running some scrap through, I am seeing a much better cut, but I now think the cutter is not set at the correct depth.  I'm back to trying to dial this in before I run real stock through.  I'm more confident in this setup running 3 feather boards.


Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2015, 08:15 PM »
*Update*  I give up on the lock miter.

Those of you who have mastered it, I bow down to y'all.

I thought I had it dialed in, had sacrificial fences (1/2", then 1/4"), running three passes.  Featherboards galore… and I still managed to kill $120 worth of S4S maple.  I know when I am defeated, and the lock miter certainly was the winner today.

I'm off to try and find an alternative method that suits me in my newel style island posts.  So as to not derail this thread, I've created a new thread seeking FOGgers alternative methods for newel post construction: 

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/what-is-your-festool-way-to-build-a-newel-post/
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 689
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2015, 12:58 AM »
What issue are you having with the joint?  The most common I've experienced is that there is a slight gap in the corners where the pieces of wood come together.  You can usually take a metal rod and rub it along the corners to push the wood fibers from each piece together and totally hide the gap.

Hope this helps

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2015, 01:12 AM »
For whatever reason, there was still a ton of tearout.

Good tip on the rod. I think with some sanding, and some rod I may be able to salvage some of the joints.

Overall, it was way more work that it was worth. I think I'll keep lock miters for small boxes, but not long runs of stock.

What issue are you having with the joint?  The most common I've experienced is that there is a slight gap in the corners where the pieces of wood come together.  You can usually take a metal rod and rub it along the corners to push the wood fibers from each piece together and totally hide the gap.

Hope this helps
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline hrrb

  • Posts: 184
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2015, 01:51 AM »
*Update*  I give up on the lock miter.

… and I still managed to kill $120 worth of S4S maple. 

I'm sorry to hear that  [sad]

It seemed you had taken all necessary steps and precautions to avoid things going bad.

Is it both the 'vertical' and 'horizontal' boards that's got tear out?

The ones you do in 'upright' position can be a bit tricky if you by accident tilt the stock. It's important to keep it firm and flat against the fence either by hand or with stacked featherboards.
It's a bit easier to do the 'horizontal' ones without any issues.

I can't figure out what you did wrong  [unsure]

Do you have a picture of the final result showing the tear out?

Kind regards
Henrik

PS! Did you remember to lock the router? I once read that if you dont remember to lock the plunge mecanism there is a slight risc that some bits running trough hard wood actually can lift the router a teeny weeny bit...just enough to ruin your work. Haven't tried that myself though.  [huh]
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 06:54 AM by hrrb »

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3327
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2015, 09:23 AM »
The ones you do in 'upright' position can be a bit tricky if you by accident tilt the stock.

I'm still trying to figure out a methodology for keeping the upright pieces truly perpendicular to the table.  Anyone got any good ideas? 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5167
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2015, 09:40 AM »
Tall fence.

Tom

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 689
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2015, 09:44 AM »
The ones you do in 'upright' position can be a bit tricky if you by accident tilt the stock.

I'm still trying to figure out a methodology for keeping the upright pieces truly perpendicular to the table.  Anyone got any good ideas?

I have used a Milescraft double tall feather board

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3327
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2015, 10:33 AM »
The ones you do in 'upright' position can be a bit tricky if you by accident tilt the stock.

I'm still trying to figure out a methodology for keeping the upright pieces truly perpendicular to the table.  Anyone got any good ideas?

I have used a Milescraft double tall feather board

The issue isn't keeping the stock against the fence, it's keeping narrow stock from tipping right-to-left that's the challenge.  I'm thinking that a sacrificial push block the same thickness as the material to be routed, that actually rides on the table might be a potential solution. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3327
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2015, 10:34 AM »
Tall fence.

Tom


I'm already using a sacrificial tall fence clamped to the CMS' fence, Tom.  It's the right-left tipping that concerns me. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 637
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2015, 10:46 AM »
Your setup looks better than before but you need a featherboard right over the bit.

The extra featherboards help minimize your influence on the board as it is presented to the bit.  That's why I use as many as I can. 

They do not completely eliminate it though so I would also recommend using as much infeed and outfeed support as you can muster.

Make sure you are locking the adjustment for the router.  It does make a difference.

As to the tear out, I think it is due to you feeding the stock too fast for the speed setting of the router.  You may need to slow your feed rate to a crawl even if it produces a little burning.

The Infinity lock miter set up jig should work with your CMT bit.
http://www.infinitytools.com/2-Pc-Lock-Miter-Master-Jig-Set-For-3_8-1-1_8-Stock-Setup/productinfo/00-LMM/

Here's an article by Gary Katz on lock miters.  He uses a power feeder on his router table.
http://www.garymkatz.com/trimtechniques/lock_miters.html

And if you haven't figured it out already...while some people make lock miters look easy, they really are a PITA!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:52 AM by deepcreek »
Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline hrrb

  • Posts: 184
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2015, 10:51 AM »
Tall fence.

Tom

Yup! Tall fence...and stackable featherboards.
You can either buy them or make your own.

I made these using my bandsaw and some scrap wood.

Put some shims in between and glue or screw together. (These are just clamped together so I could show what I mean)




Kind regards
Henrik

« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 11:09 AM by hrrb »

Offline hrrb

  • Posts: 184
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2015, 11:08 AM »
Tall fence.

Tom


I'm already using a sacrificial tall fence clamped to the CMS' fence, Tom.  It's the right-left tipping that concerns me.

Ah yes...now I get it. I'm a bit dull today  [embarassed]

A square sacrificial push block must be the answer.

Kind regards
Henrik

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2015, 11:24 AM »
Thanks a ton for your feedback.  Good point on the feather board right over the bit.

You are right that lock miters are a PITA.  I had no idea :)

As for speed of the bit, CMT bits between 35mm and 60mm show a recommended 16,000 RPM max.  I have my OF 1400 set between 3 & 4 speed (as I understand speed setting 3 is 14,800 RPM, and speed setting 4 is 17,200, so I felt splitting the difference was appropriate).  As far as feed speed, I am crawling, but I suppose I could slow down too.

Your setup looks better than before but you need a featherboard right over the bit.

The extra featherboards help minimize your influence on the board as it is presented to the bit.  That's why I use as many as I can. 

They do not completely eliminate it though so I would also recommend using as much infeed and outfeed support as you can muster.

Make sure you are locking the adjustment for the router.  It does make a difference.

As to the tear out, I think it is due to you feeding the stock too fast for the speed setting of the router.  You may need to slow your feed rate to a crawl even if it produces a little burning.

The Infinity lock miter set up jig should work with your CMT bit.
http://www.infinitytools.com/2-Pc-Lock-Miter-Master-Jig-Set-For-3_8-1-1_8-Stock-Setup/productinfo/00-LMM/

Here's an article by Gary Katz on lock miters.  He uses a power feeder on his router table.
http://www.garymkatz.com/trimtechniques/lock_miters.html

And if you haven't figured it out already...while some people make lock miters look easy, they really are a PITA!
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2015, 01:13 PM »
I know you wanted to use the lock miter joint but, given you are painting the finished product, wouldn't there be easier joints to use? I understand your need to master this joint, for sure. If the wood isn't exposed, I would assume there are other ways to get this done which are much easier than if the columns wouldn't be painted.
Randy

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2015, 01:42 PM »
Agreed! 

Perhaps the lock miter will be on my  bucket list.  As an amateur, I just have to admit when a process is too unwieldy for me.

Butt joints seem like the way to go indeed.  Now to figure out how to rip a 1x2 down to 1" wide for the short sides on the TS55.

I know you wanted to use the lock miter joint but, given you are painting the finished product, wouldn't there be easier joints to use? I understand your need to master this joint, for sure. If the wood isn't exposed, I would assume there are other ways to get this done which are much easier than if the columns wouldn't be painted.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2015, 02:08 PM »
No bandsaw for the ripping, huh? How about a friend with a tablesaw or a bandsaw? You can do it with a TS55. There should be someone on this site that can give you suggestions for that.
Randy

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 637
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2015, 02:55 PM »
Now to figure out how to rip a 1x2 down to 1" wide for the short sides on the TS55.

Tape it to a wider board and make your rip fully supported.

I do appreciate Festool's track saws (I own both) but there are times that a good table saw is the right tool for the job.
Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2015, 03:06 PM »
Good tip! 

My local lumberyard said their take care of me on their table saw.

Off to buy some stock!



Now to figure out how to rip a 1x2 down to 1" wide for the short sides on the TS55.

Tape it to a wider board and make your rip fully supported.

I do appreciate Festool's track saws (I own both) but there are times that a good table saw is the right tool for the job.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2015, 03:10 PM »
A lot cheaper than buying a new saw, but not nearly as exciting.
Randy

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2015, 12:06 PM »
Agreed.  But $15 well spent. 



A lot cheaper than buying a new saw, but not nearly as exciting.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline TallKnight

  • Posts: 1
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2017, 12:05 PM »
This has been an awesome post about setting up 45 locking miter bit.  I am currently working on a cedar chest project for my daughter.  I plan on using this joint for the box.  I have an issue though because the stock I am using for the front and side pieces is larger iin thickness than the 3/4 plywood I plan to use for the back piece.  I am planning on using the same basic design as the panneling I did in my office.  Here is a picture so you can understand what I am talking about.

Im sure what ill have to do is adjust the depth on the cut for the back piece.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 12:31 PM by TallKnight »

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5167
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2017, 01:34 PM »
These jigs take all the grief out of setting up lock miter bits. I can't recommend them enough.

https://www.infinitytools.com/lock-miter-master-jigs

I set up the bit to make this cut using the Infinity jig. One and done. Used the jig to set the bit in the CMS to routed the mating stile.



Assembled cabinet. 266884-0

Tom
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:03 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3295
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2017, 08:05 AM »
When you say index the front and the back @tjbnwi , what exactly do you mean?  Is it just precutting the front and the back to minimize the sort of tear-out and ripping one gets at the end and the beginning of the cut?

I still have yet to use my lock mitre bit.  I just got a project for which it would be perfect.  A 16x16x40 pedestal that has to have all mitred edges.  You're method of cutting on the flat would seem to be called for when running the vertical on 16" boards.  Unfortunately, the pedestal has to be made out of solid mahogany, so I don't think I want to have my first try be on $300+ worth of wood.  So I think I'll just use straight mitres reinforced in a couple of places with dominoes.  Provided all the cuts are square, the top should simply be able to nest in place and be affixed with glue.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5167
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2017, 08:49 AM »
@ear3,

My comment about indexing was referring to making a cut at each end carefully so I could set the rail the proper distance from the edge of the plywood. With the knife edge the bit produces it is very easy to distort the edge with to much side pressure. The router guided by the rail in addition to the fence removed that risk from the equation.

I suggest 2 sided tape or ATG to secure a "guide block" to the pieces run when using this bit. The blocks are set even with the edge of the work piece and are full length or longer. As you run the piece the block runs along the fence protecting the knife edge created by the cut.

Tom

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3295
Re: Lock Miter Tips and Tricks
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2017, 09:17 AM »
Thanks.

@ear3,

My comment about indexing was referring to making a cut at each end carefully so I could set the rail the proper distance from the edge of the plywood. With the knife edge the bit produces it is very easy to distort the edge with to much side pressure. The router guided by the rail in addition to the fence removed that risk from the equation.

I suggest 2 sided tape or ATG to secure a "guide block" to the pieces run when using this bit. The blocks are set even with the edge of the work piece and are full length or longer. As you run the piece the block runs along the fence protecting the knife edge created by the cut.

Tom
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3