Nice, keep the tips coming.

Nice job on the write up  Joe.   That's so much easier to follow than my notes are :-)

Fred

Joe,

Thanks for the great tip.  All of us who did not attend really appreciate the unselfish attitude of those of you who did.

Neill

I agree - this is a great tip and thank you for posting on it.

I do have a suggestion for Festool.  Why not include these tips in the instruction manual or have videos showing such tips?  It is clear that a lot of thought has gone into the design of the Domino.  Unfortunately, design features such as this does the end user little good if we don't know about them. 

This is a great tip and very timely for me--thanks!
Phred

Wow, I had no idea!  That would have come in handy so many times in the past couple of years, and no doubt I'll have even more occasions to use that knowledge in the future.  This really illustrates the value of end user training.  Thanks, Joe!

Regards,

John

Tezzer,

I thought the same thing.  When ever I make an expensive purchase I do extensive research on that product so I don't have to rely on a sales person giving me information or should I say lack of information.  If you don't do the research ahead of time then how can you use the tool how it was designed to be used.  Everyone complains about the manuals, and I agree that they need to be a lot better, but there is no reason to blame Festool for not knowing about these things.  If you read a manual and feel that there is not enough information, call your dealer, call Festool, or get online and dig for it.  The information is there.

-Dave

That would be two things, and the other 999,998 are...

I'm not really surprised. Many years in the auto repair business proved to me that only a small percentage ever read the owners manuals on their new $30,000-$40,000 machines. And few ever care much about undertanding the important dials and gauges they look at every day.

Hey, reading takes too much time.  

There is no excuse. If you pay good money for a machine then you should get a manual that explains every knob and notch on it.

I agree but there is no excuss not to know how to use your machine or know everything about it because the information & resources are out there.  Thats just my opinion.

Have I tried running a multi-million dollar company?  No, but I have certainly successfully managed multi-million dollar annual budgets year after year along with the multi-tasking required to do so.
Your question implies that you have run a multi-million dollar company, which one?  Are you a senior in the FestoolUSA organisation?  By the way, the tone of your question doesn't imply the friendly attitude the administrators are striving for.  Should I not expect a top notch, thorough owner's manual along with a very expensive tool?

Gentlemen, this part of the discussion has departed from the generally friendly atmosphere that we've come to expect here on the FOG. I hope we can get back to a friendlier tone with discussion.  

Ron, I understand your frustration with the manuals. Festool Germany seems to be indifferent to the subject of better manuals. Festool USA has been the only Festool branch to spend money on supplemental manuals. Although they've been here for years Festool USA is still getting established in the market here in North America. They have a limited budget to support their customers, maintain/expand the dealer network and grow their market share. So imagine there is a limited amount of money to spend on manuals.

As for the user training, we asked for it and Festool is delivering. The training is just getting off the ground, a little patience is in order before we can expect Festool to have video or webcasts worked out. I'm going to get them some time before I expect all the details to be worked out.    
    

I agree Brice, I felt obligated to point out a tone that was less than friendly, if this forum is going to be turned around in the direction that I'm sure FestoolUSA would hope things need nipped early.

That's great Wayne, one of my favorites!  Just call me Barney...

Ron, you took my comment the wrong way.  There was no tone to my question because you didn't hear my voice.  My question was trying to help you understand that a large company has many other tasks to work on and I'm sure you know that.  The fact of the matter is that Festool is working on videos, Festool is working on better manuals all at the same time and because the end result has not happened overnight, we now have people upset with the company because the videos are not ready.

I have not run a company of that size but I have successfully managed multi-million dollar contracts for my company so I know what is involved.  My company works with customers who purchase high end millwork and it's very common to come across multi-million dollar jobs here.  I am working on one right now for the Franking County Court House - Columbus, Ohio

 I do infact have a friendly attitude on this message board and I truly am sorry that you feel I don't by the contents of my previous message.  If I had this conversation with you in person you would of took it the other way.

If anyone should be upset, it should be me.  I simply tried to give you the answer that you were looking for by stating that Festool is responding to your request for video's but you haven't seen them yet because I'm sure a company like Festool has more then one project to work on.  As always, some projects are more important then others.   I tried to explain this by examples and I'm sorry you took them the wrong way or didn't understand them.  

-Dave

If you need the manual to know what it means, you better hope you're not on the freeway when the light comes on. 

Joraft,

Have you been to festool USA?  Have you seen how many work there?  It's not a lot.  Others that went would say how shocking it really is to see how many people don't work for them.  I am fully aware of how a company works.

I already told you thay they are working on  more than one project.  They are working on the video's and manuals.  They may not be shooting the video right now or writing a new manual but it's in the works.

Again, it is no excuse and second, you're actually wrong in your presumption that Festool America as to supply the manuals.

The manual of a tool is made during the development process of a tool and is done in Festool's case, in Germany. They first make one in German and then translate that in other languages. Now, the cost of a good translation isn't really worth mentioning. It's less then ONE single average Festool machine.

The problem lies in the fact that companies in general supply below-par manuals. Festool is certainly not the only company that's guilty of this. Be it household appliances, consumer electronics or tools, they make it a habit to provide manuals that aren't worth much except for toilet paper. I think it's a bad habit. A lot of tools explain themselves so there isn't that much need for a manual. But if you buy a new DVD player with 200 functions, it can be quite a hassle to become to understand them. 

Now with a Chinese factory that can make a saw for under 20 dollars production cost in their sweatshop, you can expect it and sort of accept it, but with a top of the notch brand like Festool, it's simply not what you'd expect.

And manuals also don't need to become too complicated. If I buy a Festool, I don't expect them to tell me how I can make a cabinet with it. But I do expect them to inform me about every single function they incorporated in the machine. That means, if there's a knob on it, I want to see in the manual what it's for. If there's a notch on it somewhere, I want to be able to look it up in the manual and read about it's intended use.

I just now for the first time read this thread start to finish and found it very Choppy and hard to read.  someone pulled out Fourm mfg's posts that were salient to understanding the conversation..... we are all big kids here  let us play  read

Craig

Indeed,

This thread is now quite a mess. Better to at least leave the persons post and delete the content with an explanation...

Festool should realize that this issue of poor quality manuals is first and foremost a detractor from potential sales.  The only reason  I have bought as many Festool products as I have is because the dealer has been so forthcoming with info and Jerry Work and Brice Burrell have posted helpful information for all to read and use.

Yes the tool manuals are made in Germany, I was referring to FestoolUSA, at their own expense, putting out the supplemental manuals (Rick's and Jerry's manuals). Festool Germany seems to be happy with the quality of the current manuals and are unwilling to spend money to improve them.

I do agree with that it isn't Festool's responsibility to teach you how to use the tools in every conceivable manner in the manual. Like you, I'd like to know what all the knobs, buttons and levers do. If the engineers took the time to build in a feature I want to know about it. 

I'll take that bet! You don't get tools that work this well from mere engineers.

I think in many respects the poor manuals is a German thing to some extent.  Great engineering...not so good at manual writing. I have a $1,000 Weller Soldering and Rework station and the manuals are very poor for it.  Another German company/product that is very high quality but lacking in basic manual information even though they have translated the few pages they do provide into about 15 languages....

Leigh Industries probably has some of the most useful manuals and quick reference cards in the entire woodworking tools business, IMHO...

Best,
Todd

Well, there is what I've already posted about Festool Germany's seeming indifference to providing better documentation. It can cost a lot money to produce quality, detailed documentation. The fact that Festool is coming out with new uses for the Domino all the time is proof enough for me that Festool is committed extensive research and product development. I bet their doing things with the Domino not of us could imagine. I'm excited to see what the future brings for the Domino. Can the documentation be better, you bet it can. The question is who's going to do it?

I've got a lot of respect for what you've done with the Domino and teaming up with Ideal Tools teaching classes is a great concept. I wish we had your classes here. So, maybe you could write a Domino users guide, maybe Festool would be willing to commission the work, maybe not. I've done a tremendous amount of un-sponsored documentation for the Festool user community. At a certain point it's up to us to support the user community.    

Alex,  I disagree, because Festool tools are somewhat more complicated and packed with features than  some competitors' tools, and many of these features  aren't immediately obvious at first glance.  That is where my dealer has been so helpful, and has made the difference in many cases where I might not have decided to buy something in the first place. Secondly I buy a lot of materials, products, fixtures and tools for work, and there are a lot of lousy instructions out there that I have to deal with, but there are also quite a few that I see that are done pretty well.  It is something that Festool can do if they decide to do it, and I think for a premium tool is it something that should be done.If it  adds 3-5% to the cost of the tool to support the preparation of Festool-quality documentation with each tool, then I am ready to pay for that.

Oh. Well, I'm not under that impression. Comparable machines by competitors can do the same stuff Festools can. Now there are a couple of machines from Festool that are somewhat unique and a step up from the competition, like the Domino and the plunge saws, but that's it.
 
And about actually buying a tool, and making the decision about it before you buy it, well I think that most people don't even get to see the manual but just look at brochures, ads, sales stories by the folks at the store, and perhaps some read reviews online. I think actually very few people weigh in the manual at forehand.

However, if you find a nice manual in the box after the sale, a manual that will explain all the tool's features in a nice and clear fashion, then that will make you appreciate your tool and the company that made it only more.

Beating a dead horse. Festool is well aware of the manual problem.

Thanks for the great tip brought back from the training class.

Don't forget that training is a very big revenue generator for some companies.

Ok, this is a difficult one... as i always have to be careful not to offend anyone So please bear with me!

Christian is correct. Our woodworking/cabinet making trade school training takes 3 full years at least. During this time, you have to go to school one day a week and the rest of the week you work full time at a woodworking company. As a wage, you are getting payed between $300 and $700 a month... The work you do at the shop is interesting to say the least. Actually, you are the cheap guy, that means: You carry the tools up to the 5th floor, you have to do the clean up, you have to get your bosses lunch (!), you just do what ever they tell you--it's all part of the learning! Eventually you move up to do the sanding--lots of it! You do some finishing, maybe but only maybe they let you work on some of the powertools. Your main job is helping your coworkers on their projects, like holding pieces while the clamps are being put on etc. Back then I hated it... But I'm now glad that I went through that whole process as it showed me step by step and over and over again on how to build furniture.
Anyhow, after those three years, you have to look for place to work. Highly recommended to be somewhere else, otherwise you will just stay in the same position as the cheap helper.
To open you own business to first have to work in the field for (I believe) 5 years. After that you can apply to go to school again... This time for 3 years in the evenings to become a master cabinetmaker/woodworker. By that time, you will have to know everything and I mean everything! Every type of joinery, every type of wood and finish, the bookkeeping, the legal side just everything.

I'm just a journeyman with about 20 years under my belt.... I'm running my own business... I don't know if it's just me, but most of my festools I got out of the box and started working with, I never look at instructions

So, I'm totally understanding where Festool is coming from and as we all know, are aware of the cultural differences. I'm sure, they are working on it but as everything in business, it takes time.

Anyhow, most of the guys here on this forum are hobby woodworkers and please be patient with yourself. You can't learn this trade/hobby overnight it will take a while. You know, these tools are amazing and the best thing on the market, but you still need practice to get the most out of them.
Don't give up! Enjoy the ride.... Or as we say in Germany: Lehrjahre sind keine Herren Jahre!

Cheers,
Andreas

Andreas,

Thanks for the interesting and enlightening story.  Kind of reminds me of the stories my Stepfather used to tell me about growing up on a farm in Hungary before World War II.  Sounds cliche but he would walk long distances to school even in the winter.  He had to get up early to do his chores and after doing his homework at night, more chores.  I though it was a bunch of hooey but found out later it was not.

As you eluded to, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Neill

Joe, be ready to be surprised then since I think our difference only lies in the mere fact of what you call the development stage exactly.

From the viewpoint of the engineer the development stage might only comprise the machine itself, but from the higher level of the company, the level where I'm talking about, the development process entrails the development of the entire product.

The entire product includes manuals and even systainer inserts and stickers. 

Since aligning the Domino for cutting a mortise is so basic to it's operation it's surprising that the milled tabs wouldn't have been mentioned in the manual along with the sight gage and pins or paddles.

Wonderwino,

After my trip to Festool, I no longer have a short list...pretty much a long list now.  I hear people complain about Festool being slow to release a new product when one is on the horizon.  Me?  I can't keep up!

After our classes, I added the following to my list of must haves:

Parallel Guides
T-15
LS-130
Gecco clamp
OF1010
OF2200
RS2
MFT3 (another one)
Horizontal Rail clamp
New router table when its available
New CT when available
New vacuum clamping system when available

Just off the top of my head.......

Wayne,

I have a long list, too!     I have just prioritized a half dozen items to the top of the list.  I bought the parallel guide set which I really like and ordered the 4mm domino items (the cutter is backordered).  I'm just going to have to get the T15+3, a couple of MFTs & etc.  If I had spent two days there, I would probably have to go for a second mortgage.   

-Alex

Ron I called them by the wrong names, here they are.

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/gecko/gecko-suction-handle-492617.html

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/clamps/fsrapid-clamp-and-fixed-jaws-489790.html

I don't remember the size of the bag on the new CT, but it had some new features, i think a self cleaning filter system and a second plug option.  Mostly, I need two more CT's eventually and figure I'd buy the new ones when they come out.  I don't really remember all the new features.  I just remembered I wanted one, they weren't available and I was broke any way, so I just added it to the list.

The Rapid Clamps work in the same situations as the screw clamps. To clamp them, you just squeeze.


Tom

They look handy for when I hold parts vertically on the front of the MFT while using the Domino.  I now use the other Festool clamps (not the screw clamps) but I have to slide them out of the way while changing pieces.
Do the rapid clamps have fair holding power?  Can they also be used in the MFT top holes?

I also have those other Festool clamps that have the slides & lever to tighten that I use while sanding.

Thanks for the great tip and your excellent photo essay presentation!

Re the manuals, I agree with those who stated that you should always read (or at least) browse through the owner's manual.  And in the case of Festool products, always look for the possibility of expanded user manuals such as those created by Jerry Work and Rick Christopherson, and other members of FOG.  These manuals provide a lot more detail than Festool's factory manuals.

Others' comments have pointed out the huge difference in the way things are done in Europe (and particularly in Germany) and in USA and Canada.   Apprenticeships are alive and well in Europe, not so much in USA.  That is very significant in my opinion.  Those lengthy apprenticeships involve a lot of hands on training that mitigates the need for many of the details many of us USA users (particularly the non-professionals) would like to see in FestoolUSA's manuals.   If you were to study metal working/mechanics/automobile repair/restoration in Germany, one of the first things you would have to master is filing a perfect straight, flat edge on a piece of sheet metal with a flat file.  It's not as easy as it first appears.  Those who have learned how to sharpen chisels and scrapers will understand what I am trying to say.

Let's not forget to thank Festool for making continuation this of this forum possible and Matthew Schenker for creating it and nurturing it before Festool assumed ownership/responsibility, and the many highly knowledgeable contributors who help one another.

Although I believe Festool could do much better with rather little effort, I somewhat disagree with those who think that Festool should describe all the features of each of their products and how to use all of those features, mainly because I think that is an impossibility due to human creativity.   Brice Burrell's discovery of a way to use the Domino machine to quickly create louvered shutters is an example.  Creativity of the owners/users is always going to result in discovery of new uses not considered by the product development engineers.  We have this forum to use to share such information.

I think Festool should include in their printed manuals one or more website addresses to which a tool owner could go to see more detailed manuals and user videos, which also serve as promotional materials.  I have often hesitated to buy some Festool products because I did not understand their potential value from mere examination of the tool or the simple manuals, and thus could not justify to myself or my wife why I should buy those particular products.  Festool should consider engaging Forrest Anderson to help them provide a link to his excellent and well organized listing of Festool related links.

Sorry Ron, I'm getting the products confused. The Rapid clamp doesn't fit in the MFT holes. The Rapid clamp is used on the guide rail when regular clamps can't get around the item being cut. I once used the Rapid clamp to cut the back off a cabinet. The cabinet was melamine and I was worried the rail would slip. There is no way to use regular clamps, the Rapid clamp did the trick.

The quick clamps are on the bottom left of the picture and the rapid clamp is on the far right.

Yep, OK.  I have the quick clamps & as you say they are by far my most used (Festool) clamps.  In your picture at the upper left is the other clamps that I was talking about -- great for sanding.

And thanks, now I see the purpose of the Rapid clamps -- for securing the guide rail in place while cutting however I most often don't bother to clamp the rail at all, it stays put on it's own.  The problem that I see with the Rapid clamp is that whatever is being used to support the work piece would need to be narrower than the work piece so as not to interfere with the clamp -- is that correct?

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/489790/FS-Rapid-Clamp

Thanks Tom.  I see that you are a Festool dealer in Texas.  Are you required to collect state sales tax for Pennsylvania orders?

Maybe they should take a look at how Leigh does their manuals.  None finer.  I would think Leigh and Festool are on par with each other as leaders in their respective fields.  Festool should take notice of that.  It really isn't right that I have to download Rick's manuals or Brice's reviews to really learn about how a particular tool works. 

Despite Festool Germany's indifference to manuals, I have to say that the quality of these forums reflects the quality of the Festool product.  I have learnt an immense amount on Festool equipment by subscribing to these forums and would like to thank all those forum members who contribute such useful information.