Author Topic: Squaring the MFT/3  (Read 3073 times)

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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Squaring the MFT/3
« on: April 20, 2019, 09:06 PM »
FWIW - I set my MFT/3 up using the method Gregory Paolini showed on YouTube; however, unfortunately his method didn't align the fence or rail aligned with the bench dog holes.  Perhaps this doesn't matter for some people but I'd think we'd want everything in alignment with these holes for various use cases later on. 

The way I set mine up instead was to loosen the screw on the side of the miter gauge, put bench dogs behind the fence on each end, push the fence tight up against the dogs, and snug down the miter gauge and end stop lock.  If you need the fence further back or further forward, you can place 2 bench dogs in front of and perpendicular to the fence, use a square/triangle, ensure it's square, and lock it down ... I used this to verify it was square.

Afterwards, I placed 2 dogs parallel with the fence, set my square/triangle against the dogs and guide rail, and continued adjusting the front raiser piece until the guide rail was perfectly square.  I then loosened the set screw the front raiser piece butts into, moved it tight against the front raiser piece, and locked it down.  I then loosened the bolts on the guide rail to release any tension, tightened them back down, and made sure the guide rail remained square and verified the guide rail came down perfectly on the front raiser block pin.

Now the fence and guide rail are square to each other and aligned with the bench dog holes so they can be used to cut 45 degree angles, etc.

Hope this is helpful for somebody else looking to square things up.

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Offline TSO Products

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2019, 09:49 AM »
@Bugsysiegals – your post  “   FWIW - I set my MFT/3 up using the method Gregory Paolini showed on YouTube; however, unfortunately his method didn't align the fence or rail aligned with the bench dog holes.  Perhaps this doesn't matter for some people but I'd think we'd want everything in alignment with these holes for various use cases later”   

This brings to mind an exclusive feature of our Precision Triangles for squaring MFT/3 guide rails, especially when raising it to the height of, say 3/4” material” being cut.

Attached is a picture  showing this simple set-up for squaring the rail to the dog holes. We just added this feature to the newest upgraded version of the PTR-18 Plus Triangle – best value for an 18” Triangle on the market today. Our website doesn’t show it yet for the PTR-18  but that is what we are shipping on both 18” Triangles now, not just on the MTR-18 . The Stainless Pins are 25mm/1" tall above the Triangle.

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-precision-system-triangles/mtr-18-precision-system-triangle/

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2019, 10:13 AM »
Hans. Arrr!
You keep making the things better.  [blink]
True 45* and true 90* are just not enough for you huh?
Keep up the good work.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2019, 01:52 PM »
Michael - do you have a PTR-18 Triangle?

-if so, you can easily upgrade it by using our specially priced $ 6.00 Aluminum Drill Jig to add the precision mounting holes for the Stainless Pins which we can supply as spare parts .

The idea is to avoid obsolescence of customer tools whenever possible while improving the product line.

No reason to buy any other 18" Triangle, regardless of color [smile]

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2019, 02:20 PM »
Thanks Hans!!  This square has actually been on my wishlist ever since I seen Dave Stanton use it in some of his videos. Because my bench dogs made my guide rail overlap existing bench dog holes, I wondered whether TSO triangle would do the same or if I could simply use it free form, assuming it has a tall enough lip on it.  It’s nice to see you’ve added these pins ...  a potential improvement, if it doesn’t add to much cost, would be to add a few more rows deep for these pins which would allow several fresh zero clearance cuts rather than having to move the triangle over an entire row per fresh cut, make sense?  That or I guess a spacer block which is consistent would work too.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 04:52 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2019, 03:12 PM »
@Bugsysiegals - we have a better solution for that application. Its called TDS-10 and will be introduced weekend of May 4/5 - look for it two weeks from now.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Online dicktill

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2019, 05:00 PM »
Michael - do you have a PTR-18 Triangle?

-if so, you can easily upgrade it by using our specially priced $ 6.00 Aluminum Drill Jig to add the precision mounting holes for the Stainless Pins which we can supply as spare parts .

The idea is to avoid obsolescence of customer tools whenever possible while improving the product line.

No reason to buy any other 18" Triangle, regardless of color [smile]

Hans

Hans & Eric: you guys are great, keep up the good work!

Everyone else: I won't tell you what these guys did for me, but wow, what great customer service.

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2019, 05:06 PM »
While we're waiting for the good folks at @TSO Products to bring out the TDS-10, you might want to try this method. 
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2019, 02:25 PM »
@TSO Products ... I've been wanting the Super Parf Dogs and guide rail clips ... can you tell me, will the guide rail clips fit into the back channel of the MFT/3 fence?  I'm interested how well they'd hold the fence in position and if it can whether it would be square to the bench dog holes.  If this doesn't work, it seems like a great new product!!

My interest is to add a Starrett adhesive measure to the front of the existing MFT/3 fence and be able to quickly slide it to the left 300-400mm, and lock it back down so it remains square.  I figure I can get wider cross cuts by simply aligning the fence up the the guide rail with one of my stainless steel rules as a spacer, set the tape, and then make a spacer block out of wood/aluminum extrusion which allows me to adjust the rail 300-400mm to the left for 1220mm wide cross cuts ... with this method I only need to add 300-400mm to whatever the tape measure says for wide cuts which is simple math.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 02:57 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2019, 03:05 PM »
@Bugsysiegals – UJK’s Dog Rail Clips are designed to fit the T-slot on FESTOOL guide rails and loop over the 20mm tall Parf Dog or similar dog designs. They do not fit any extrusion on the MFT/3 table.

 Note: the Track saw motor housing will not clear tall Dogs thus limiting the cutting width – especially on an MFT/3.
TSO’s Stubby Dogs solve that problem by providing enough height to capture the Dog Rail Clips while not interfering with the motor housing when cutting common sheet goods thicknesses.

Hans


Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2019, 03:24 PM »
Thanks Hans.  Did you mean the track saw will not clear the Parf Long Super Dog (120mm projection) but will clear the Parf Super Dog (60mm projection)?

If I buy the PLSD am I able to get the shaft only piece in order to convert it to a PSD when needed?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 05:10 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2019, 08:50 AM »
Can confirm after trying every other method using the MTR-18 and the tall pins is the most accurate way to square up a guide rail. Every product TSO makes is worth its weight in gold.
@matts.garage

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2019, 08:22 PM »
Thanks Hans.  Did you mean the track saw will not clear the Parf Long Super Dog (120mm projection) but will clear the Parf Super Dog (60mm projection)?

If I buy the PLSD am I able to get the shaft only piece in order to convert it to a PSD when needed?
 

@Bugsysiegals – YES, I do mean that the TS-55 motor housing will not clear a 60 mm projection above the table surface.
We sized our Stubby Dog to just do that and it rises only 40mm above the worksurface top.

To be able to have both a Parf Super Dog and a Parf Long Super Dog: buy the Parf Long Super Dog Adapter shaft as a spare part to go with the Parf Super Dog – not the other way round.  TSO stocks both the PSD and the Long Extension.

Hans

TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2019, 08:51 PM »
Thanks Hans.  Did you mean the track saw will not clear the Parf Long Super Dog (120mm projection) but will clear the Parf Super Dog (60mm projection)?

If I buy the PLSD am I able to get the shaft only piece in order to convert it to a PSD when needed?
 

@Bugsysiegals – YES, I do mean that the TS-55 motor housing will not clear a 60 mm projection above the table surface.
We sized our Stubby Dog to just do that and it rises only 40mm above the worksurface top.

To be able to have both a Parf Super Dog and a Parf Long Super Dog: buy the Parf Long Super Dog Adapter shaft as a spare part to go with the Parf Super Dog – not the other way round.  TSO stocks both the PSD and the Long Extension.

Hans

What plunge depth/material thickness allows the housing to clear 40mm?

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2019, 08:59 PM »
Very strange, It seems Dave is using the 60mm Super Dogs and shows it clearing with 19mm board and says it will work on smaller boards somehow ... starts talking about 6m in and cuts around 7m.

@TSO Products, do you mean it will not clear if you use it without the guide rail?  Isn't Dave using the Super Dog with 19mm plywood and clearing it?  I believe he says you'll have the same clearance with thinner plywood which I don't get but good to know the facts before buying the wrong product.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 09:50 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2019, 10:33 PM »
@Michael Kellough and @Bugsysiegals
you guys are sending me back to shop to measure - I'll report my findings here.

Do you recall which of Dave Stanton's videos has the demonstration you mention?

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2019, 10:40 PM »


7 minutes in ...

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 09:25 AM »
Very strange, It seems Dave is using the 60mm Super Dogs and shows it clearing with 19mm board and says it will work on smaller boards somehow ... starts talking about 6m in and cuts around 7m.

@TSO Products, do you mean it will not clear if you use it without the guide rail?  Isn't Dave using the Super Dog with 19mm plywood and clearing it?  I believe he says you'll have the same clearance with thinner plywood which I don't get but good to know the facts before buying the wrong product.

If the housing clears 60mm on a 19mm workpiece then there will be even more clearance above a thinner workpiece.

Thicker workpiece=more plunge so the housing will be closer to the table surface. So, what is the minimum workpiece thickness to clear the 40mm tall Stubby dog? We’re talking about this in connection (puns accepted) with using the rail clips and dogs so use of a rail is included.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 162
Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 12:00 PM »
Very strange, It seems Dave is using the 60mm Super Dogs and shows it clearing with 19mm board and says it will work on smaller boards somehow ... starts talking about 6m in and cuts around 7m.

@TSO Products, do you mean it will not clear if you use it without the guide rail?  Isn't Dave using the Super Dog with 19mm plywood and clearing it?  I believe he says you'll have the same clearance with thinner plywood which I don't get but good to know the facts before buying the wrong product.

If the housing clears 60mm on a 19mm workpiece then there will be even more clearance above a thinner workpiece.

Thicker workpiece=more plunge so the housing will be closer to the table surface. So, what is the minimum workpiece thickness to clear the 40mm tall Stubby dog? We’re talking about this in connection (puns accepted) with using the rail clips and dogs so use of a rail is included.

How is there more clearance with a thinner workpiece?  If the dog is 60mm above the table and the stock is 19mm and the fence is ~5mm, the dog would protrude 36mm above the fence whereas with a 16mm stock it would protrude 39mm making it closer to the saw???

Offline threesixright

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2019, 01:21 PM »
@Bugsysiegals – your post  “   FWIW - I set my MFT/3 up using the method Gregory Paolini showed on YouTube; however, unfortunately his method didn't align the fence or rail aligned with the bench dog holes.  Perhaps this doesn't matter for some people but I'd think we'd want everything in alignment with these holes for various use cases later”   

This brings to mind an exclusive feature of our Precision Triangles for squaring MFT/3 guide rails, especially when raising it to the height of, say 3/4” material” being cut.

Attached is a picture  showing this simple set-up for squaring the rail to the dog holes. We just added this feature to the newest upgraded version of the PTR-18 Plus Triangle – best value for an 18” Triangle on the market today. Our website doesn’t show it yet for the PTR-18  but that is what we are shipping on both 18” Triangles now, not just on the MTR-18 . The Stainless Pins are 25mm/1" tall above the Triangle.

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-precision-system-triangles/mtr-18-precision-system-triangle/

Hans

@Hans

Looks like a nice product!

I don't mean this bad, really not, but 265 USD ? Did someone of the marketing/sales department dropped om their head? Whats under that beautifully blue finish, gold?  [eek]

I hope not, but I find this type of pricing really of the chart  [scared]

Maybe just me  :-[

Probably will get some flak for saying this, but well so be it ...

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2019, 02:39 PM »
Very strange, It seems Dave is using the 60mm Super Dogs and shows it clearing with 19mm board and says it will work on smaller boards somehow ... starts talking about 6m in and cuts around 7m.

@TSO Products, do you mean it will not clear if you use it without the guide rail?  Isn't Dave using the Super Dog with 19mm plywood and clearing it?  I believe he says you'll have the same clearance with thinner plywood which I don't get but good to know the facts before buying the wrong product.

If the housing clears 60mm on a 19mm workpiece then there will be even more clearance above a thinner workpiece.

Thicker workpiece=more plunge so the housing will be closer to the table surface. So, what is the minimum workpiece thickness to clear the 40mm tall Stubby dog? We’re talking about this in connection (puns accepted) with using the rail clips and dogs so use of a rail is included.

How is there more clearance with a thinner workpiece?  If the dog is 60mm above the table and the stock is 19mm and the fence is ~5mm, the dog would protrude 36mm above the fence whereas with a 16mm stock it would protrude 39mm making it closer to the saw???

Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking of the HK saws instead of the TS saws.

On the HK saws the thinner the stock the higher the housing (assuming you only just cut thru).

On the TS saws stock thickness makes very little difference in motor housing clearance since the pivot point is about the same altitude as the bottom of the motor housing, so you’re right, thinner stock means an adjacent dog will sit higher relative to the saw/rail.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2019, 03:20 PM »

Snip.
I don't mean this bad, really not, but 265 USD ? Did someone of the marketing/sales department dropped om their head? Whats under that beautifully blue finish, gold?  [eek]

I hope not, but I find this type of pricing really of the chart  [scared]

Maybe just me  :-[


I think, like pricing for new drugs, it has to do with recovering the R&D costs, in addition to making a profit on the sales.

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2019, 04:17 PM »
There nothing wrong with saying the pricing of a tool or instrument is too high. However what is often overlooked is the scale production. when you start to talk about precision and limited production, things start to get expensive. I would say, as they should. We have become too used to slave labor pricing. There are all price points out there and this choice is a good thing. Imagine if only the cheap were available?  Just like there is IKEA and bespoke furniture. I am not certain, however I would expect TSO's margins might  not be as high as many would think. Having said that, I am a fan of people benefiting from the risk and effort they put into their endeavors and reaping the benefits of the same. This keeps products and services coming.

Offline threesixright

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Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2019, 05:19 PM »
@ChuckM and @tallgrass

I get it, R&D and scale. Of course it's a good point. But let's be honest, a C18 drill costs 320 USD (MSRP, yes much larger volumes...). Very hard to imagine the costs for a piece of aluminium square has that much of R&D. Its a (speed)square for crying out loud [emoji12]  Metal speedsquare on amazon, 15 USD. Not 200+, this is one is nice, granted (!), yet....not in the coming 264+ years [emoji6]

I get more a feeling, that their view is: people buying into (the expensive) Festool brand, have deeper wallets . Well, thats my take. This is a ridiculous price and my gut feeling, they shoot themselves in the foot. They would sell more, if they land back on planet earth.

BTW not want to hijack this thread, but when TSO is pushing their own solution...

Just MHO.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:49 PM by threesixright »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2019, 07:43 PM »
Well, I am not associated with TSO but I have had conversations away from the forum.  Premium products come with a cost and Festool users have high expectations.  Innovation has a cost and when you need to meet expectations - or exceed - the machining requires the precision normally reserved for aerospace and medical manufacturing.  That isn't cheap.

I can assure you that the break even point on the squares is far into the future.

Want to play?  Gotta pay.

Or make it yourself.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 07:27 AM by Peter Halle »

Online dicktill

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2019, 08:27 PM »
@ChuckM and @tallgrass

I get it, R&D and scale. Of course it's a good point. But let's be honest, a C18 drill costs 320 USD (MSRP, yes much larger volumes...). Very hard to imagine the costs for a piece of aluminium square has that much of R&D. Its a (speed)square for crying out loud [emoji12]  Metal speedsquare on amazon, 15 USD. Not 200+, this is one is nice, granted (!), yet....not in the coming 264+ years [emoji6]

I get more a feeling, that their view is: people buying into (the expensive) Festool brand, have deeper wallets . Well, thats my take. This is a ridiculous price and my gut feeling, they shoot themselves in the foot. They would sell more, if they land back on planet earth.

BTW not want to hijack this thread, but when TSO is pushing their own solution...

Just MHO.

The last time Woodpeckers had an 18" precision triangle (one time tool) for sale, it was $189.99 without an MDF case, and it had a lot less functionality than this TSO one. I have both ...

Offline threesixright

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2019, 02:10 AM »
@Peter & @dicktill

Appreciate your explanation! As an entrepreneur myself I do understand your points and to an extend I fully agree.

However, I don't believe the they cut each by hand. Probably this is done on a CNC and then coated. Now I might be wrong (probably am..), but -besides the costs of R&D- this unit production costs feels more ~ 25 USD. I would be surprised if would be much more. Too recoup your R&D is matter of how many do you think you can see sold, on the long run. Festool sold a lot of rails, and the change their design will change is low. So potentially there is a good market for this (I do see the value of a square).

Other than Festool, they have hardly any support to give or updates to make. It also works with a few other brands. Basically a pretty simple product (no offence), yet it costs as much as an Festool drill. Now, the R&D costs of making a cordless drill is on a different scale:  Electronics (design, certifications), housing, packaging, warranty, testing, overhead. etc. That seems to be a substantial number  Either way you turn it, a 'speed' square has very little of all that.

I don't want to convince any of you, I just try to send a message to TSO that with this price point, they will miss out a lot on sales. If I see how many people here on FOG talk about 'expensive' FT, I can't hardly imagine, many shell out 265 USD for a square.

I'm not trying to bash TSO or want to put them in any bad daylight. I think they make very nice products! But a price goes hand in hand with a 'perceived value'. I don't see it. Guessing, I'm not alone.

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2019, 02:52 PM »
@Bugsysiegals - we have a better solution for that application. Its called TDS-10 and will be introduced weekend of May 4/5 - look for it two weeks from now.

Hans

I see that the TDS-10 is now available from TSO Products!   [smile] 
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2019, 03:08 PM »
Not meant to belittle the new product TDS-10, but how could it be anywhere as quick as using a holdfast (costing as low as $31 Cdn) for securing work for the domino joiner in a typical mortising job?

"A simple solution: deploy several TDS-10 Dog Stops™ and some conventional dogs to capture the work piece. Cut the required mortises in all identical pieces. Reposition for the remaining mortises, and you’re done."

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Squaring the MFT/3
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2019, 03:52 PM »
the TDS-10 topic is posted on its own thread in the Dealer Sales area or just enter the thread name in the FOG SEARCH box.
                         "new TDS-10 Dog Stop from TSO"

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA