wnagle
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Location: Akron, Ohio USA Member Since: Apr 2008
Posts: 465
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« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2009, 10:49 PM » |
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Thanks to everyone's expert input! And excellent summary Brice!
As per usual...
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Wayne
TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, DELTEX 93, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120.
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
Posts: 773
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« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2009, 07:13 AM » |
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Hey now Brice =)
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okami
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Location: JAPAN (JP) Member Since: Jul 2009
Posts: 3
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« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2009, 09:31 AM » |
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Hello  When I owned a RO150, I removed pad, and it did improve the scratch pattern (but not enough to keep it  ) I believe the pad was restricting the random movement, as Rick mentioned. With the pad on , the scratches were the shape Rick mentioned also. I now use a Metabo sander, and it performs much better. I don't know whether it has a pad or not (it probably does), but I can start on and off without causing problems. When I start off the work, I bring it down like a plane landing. As soon as it glides down, the sander it moving along the work. Now Pneumatic sanders are much nicer to use compared to electric IMHO. If You have a big compressor, You won't look back at electric. Unfortunately, I don't have a big enough compressor right now so I'm stuck with electric  Cheers! Okami  |
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
Posts: 773
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« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2009, 09:37 AM » |
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It would be nice if someone from Festool would chime in on this matter. I would like to know if we should remove the brake for a better finish?
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RonWen
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Location: One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America. Member Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 365
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« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2009, 10:03 AM » |
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I've had a Metabo angle grinder for several years and it's a great tool. Based on Okami's input, I purchased the same Metabo sander that he is using. It does a very nice job, I'm very pleased with it & I need to look into other Metabo sanders. Those Germans... Hello When I owned a RO150, I removed pad, and it did improve the scratch pattern (but not enough to keep it ) I believe the pad was restricting the random movement, as Rick mentioned. With the pad on , the scratches were the shape Rick mentioned also. I now use a Metabo sander, and it performs much better. I don't know whether it has a pad or not (it probably does), but I can start on and off without causing problems. When I start off the work, I bring it down like a plane landing. As soon as it glides down, the sander it moving along the work. Now Pneumatic sanders are much nicer to use compared to electric IMHO. If You have a big compressor, You won't look back at electric. Unfortunately, I don't have a big enough compressor right now so I'm stuck with electric Cheers! Okami |
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« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 10:30 PM by RONWEN »
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Holzhacker
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Location: Chicago, IL Member Since: Mar 2009
Posts: 292
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« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2009, 11:39 AM » |
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My 2 cents ... starting on or off wood pretty much irrelevant. If you're going to sand the piece anyway presumably one is paying attention to sanding out any swirls and isn't putting heavy pressure on the sander during startup. However, I do always stop OFF wood. From my experience stopping ON wood does ruin whatever finish I've worked so hard to achieve.
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"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 3511
Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2009, 01:16 PM » |
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It would be nice if someone from Festool would chime in on this matter. I would like to know if we should remove the brake for a better finish?
Dave, I can't imagine Festool adds a sanding brake, spending the money and taking the time to put them on the sanders, then recommended you remove them. A properly functioning sanding brake isn't going to adversely effect your finished results. Most of us are familiar with the break in period for Festool tool, this break in is especially important for sanders. We most commonly talk about the carbon brushes seating during this period but that's not all that is happening. The sanding brake is also breaking in, as it does the sander's pad will be allowed to spin a little faster and this can produce better results. In some cases a new sander's brake may be braking the pad's rotation a little too much, combined this with a motor that might not be producing full power until the brushes seat and the results may not be as good they will be after the break in period. This discussion has mostly centered around the sanding brake as it relates to safely setting the sander down on the surface but there is so much more to it that that. On a random orbit sander the pad's rotation is an important factor. If the rotation is too slow the scratch pattern won't be very random and you'll be left with results much like an orbital sander. You might experience this if your sander is new and sanding brake isn't broken in, if you have excess suction from your vac or you are applying too much downward pressure on the sander. Too fast of a rotation and the grit particles may not be able to cut effectively so you'll get some burnishing of the surface (remember we want to shear (cut) the wood fibers off when sanding not burnish the surface.) This can happen to sander without a brake or a warn brake. The brake helps controls the speed of rotation to optimize sanding when working correctly not detract from it. |
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
Posts: 773
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« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2009, 01:28 PM » |
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Honestly, I kind of figured that out myself a long time ago. Some people are saying one thing and then another. I guess I should have said it differently such as, would removing the break increase the effectiveness. Who knows right? It's there for a reason but there could be something more to it than just slowing the pad down.
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RonWen
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Location: One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America. Member Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 365
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« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2009, 05:59 PM » |
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I watched most of the Festool RO demonstration videos, in most cases (if not all) the RO was started up off of the work surface & then applied to it. The exception seemed to be where they applied polish to a buffing pad -- the RO was then started while in contact with the work surface.
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greg mann
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Location: Michigan Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 854
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« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2009, 12:47 PM » |
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Just to muddy the waters even further:
I have seen to demonstrations using the Rotex to bring a rough sawn board to a surface ready for finishing. In one case, by Brian at Festool, various grits and grades were used sarting in Rotex mode and working through several of the rougher grits and then switching to ROS mode to finish. Beautiful results. In another demo, also by a Festool rep, the machine was left in Rotex mode all the way through the process from start to finish. Beautiful results. In neither case was a magnifier used so I will not claim they were exactly equal, but they were both acceptable to all parties in attendence.
It would seem that the notion of using the Rotex mode, which maintains a constant rotation in addition to the orbits, would support Rick's assertion that it is useful and effective to make sure there is adequate rotation of the pad. There seems to be a consensus that this rotation is exactly what makes the action of the sander random. The addition of the pad brake could really be seen as one way to control (and limit) rotation speed while the Rotex mode could be seen as a way to control (and invoke) rotation.
This has no direct bearing on which start and stop technique is best but does speak to the broader question of scratch pattern and control. I would also like to hear what Festool thinks, from a sanding philosophy perspective as well as how those philosophies are reflected in their tool design.
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Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
Posts: 773
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« Reply #40 on: September 3, 2009, 08:09 AM » |
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Guys,
I found that if you use an oil to finish something you get better results to start the sander on the work piece and then turn it on instead of turning it on and then go into the work piece. If you don't come into the work piece at just the right way while it's on, you will get swirl marks and they stand out a lot more then just on bare wood. I'm a person who starts the machine off the workpiece but I have since changed that for wood that is finished.
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Peter Halle
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Location: Powhatan, Virginia USA Member Since: Jul 2007
Posts: 2093
Foggers Rock! Remember - "With pictures, it CAN h
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« Reply #41 on: September 5, 2009, 06:45 PM » |
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During the training class this issue came up. There is a split of opinion there also. Brian recommends starting it while on the workpiece. Any scratches will be sanded out. Also, starting it in the air and then lowering it onto the piece requires that it is placed evenly flat so as not to cause gouges.
When sanding drywall compound I start the sander while touching the surface. Soft surfaces will gouge easily.
Peter
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Went Green before it was Fashionable. Bought a Festool.
Kapex, TS55, OF1400, Domino, TDK12, T15, RO150, ETS150/3, MFT/3, CT22, RAS115, lots of systainers, previous owner of FOGtainer 1
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Dave Ronyak
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 2230
Flyin' from NE Ohio
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« Reply #42 on: September 7, 2009, 02:08 PM » |
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Brice's comments well explain why it is important to not press down on your RO sander and why use of an adjustable vacuum machine (Festool's CT 22, for example) have a significant influence on sanding effectiveness. I have an older Bosch 5" (125mm) RO sander which does not have a Pad Brake and Festool's ETS 125 which does. With the Bosch, I place the sander on the workpiece, then start it. With the Festool sander, I normally start it off the work. If the downward pressure on the pad is too much, the pad will not rotate, and you won't get the best finish possible with an RO sander.
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Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement. PCs...I'm not so sure.
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