Author Topic: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012  (Read 15995 times)

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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« on: August 01, 2012, 01:01 AM »
Note.... Ken's post is first  because of forum function. See topic starter and video post next one down.

Seth

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Very nice demos everyone.

My issue is having to have an MFT that isn't cut up from use and shellacing the face and holes.  That seems to kill it for me.  I want to also point out from my experience using the Domino DF500, when you clamped that long board with vacuum, it pulled down the part of the board that was within the seal.  The rest of the board was a little higher (warped) and the Domino or Domiplate won't lay flat on certain warped areas depending on the shape, therefore your dominos will rise and fall along the length and you may have issues when joining two pieces.

Another thing I'll mention from my personal experience, when you cut a domino mortise, do it once.  Don't re-plunge or you can actually widen the mortise in height causing a loose joint.  Sometimes you get lucky.  Most of the time when I did it, it was too loose and a waste of a mortise.

Craig, thanks for showing the Bowclamps.  You gave some info I wasn't aware of.

Eric, coping MDF?  Why?

Charles, thanks for the video and pictures and Victor, for the pictures also.  Just noticed Charles posted some pictures.  Really nice!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 03:14 AM by Ken Nagrod »

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Offline SRSemenza

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Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2012, 01:59 AM »
Charles Wilson did the taping and editing for this  demo. Eric Buggeln is the demonstrator.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 02:15 AM by SRSemenza »

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2012, 07:52 AM »
Thanks Seth, splitting the thread seemed appropriate since we are catching up to Fogtainers in pages. If you have any questions about Vac Dogs please let me know and Im sure QWAS will chime in, tanks Eric

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 07:55 AM »
Ken, fair question. One it was all i had laying around and two I didnt want to be fiddling around to long sanding and bore people. I wanted the presentation to move quicker and it was just an example, Eric

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 10:12 AM »
Ken, I'm sure you could find a way to make a small panel out of ply or other sheet good with a few holes to throw down on the MFT as a base for the Qwas vac dogs.

Not to get too far off topic but why not cope crown MDF?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 10:58 AM by Brice Burrell »
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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 10:37 AM »
Ken, I'm sure you could find a way to make a small panel out of ply or other sheet good with a few holes to throw down on the MFT as a base for the Qwas vac dogs.

Not to get too far off topic but why not cope crown?

My question wasn't about crown.  It was, why cope MDF.  Coping as you know is really to alleviate the visual effects of expansion and contraction (gaps) at joints.  MDF won't and you can't get crisp edges with MDF.  It's really just paper.  That's why I was confused as to Eric not using wood molding for his demo.  Also, using the coping saw, the RAS and sandpaper folded like origami, to me takes too long.  I would have just cut it with the coping saw and been done if it were right there, but that's just the way I work and use a coping saw a lot, however, I would really only do that with wood.

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 10:55 AM »
Ken, let me first say that i was sad you and your NJ crew couldnt make it. It would have been even more fun with you guys. I was gonna try to get to HD for some wood crown, but believe it or not i put a huge amount of my spare time into making this party a success. I can assure you that there will be another video demo surfacing of wood crown and the RAS, so look for that. The one reason like coping in general, no matter what the material, is ease of installation. And even though i use three tools to get my objective done, when not presenting and working in the field it is very quick. I know how to cope with the Coping Saw, i just like the RAS better. Maybe its bc im so much younger then you? Or maybe i just cant resist power tools? Not sure. I also just wanted to show people how i do it, so they can have more options. Good discussion topic though, Ken, thanks for looking and promise me you will be at 2013? Eric

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 10:58 AM »
My question wasn't about crown.  It was, why cope MDF.  Coping as you know is really to alleviate the visual effects of expansion and contraction (gaps) at joints.  MDF won't and you can't get crisp edges with MDF.  It's really just paper.  That's why I was confused as to Eric not using wood molding for his demo.  Also, using the coping saw, the RAS and sandpaper folded like origami, to me takes too long.  I would have just cut it with the coping saw and been done if it were right there, but that's just the way I work and use a coping saw a lot, however, I would really only do that with wood.


Ken, I mistakenly wrote crown but I meant MDF. [doh]  Generally I'll get a better fit by coping than mitering so I almost always cope MDF.    
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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2012, 11:16 AM »
My therapist says I'm good at coping.  [tongue]

Offline VSM_4

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 11:20 AM »
I like the simplicity offered by Peter Halle's vac clamping method ( )  No need to shellac another MFT top or worry about saw cuts.  I also like that with the plate under the work piece, everything is lifted off of the table, allowing access to the entire edge.  

My MFT gets 1000 cuts in it, which would mean I need to dedicate a separate MFT for vacuum clamping, in addition to the dogs, vac pump, hoses, gauges, etc.  

I have the screw clamps, quick clamps, and clamping elements- not sure where this would really fit in to my workflow.  

I like the Fes vac sys and the Schmalz alternative but one is NAINA and the other cost a bit more than I can justify for the convenience.

I also think the noise of the little pump going would drive me insane.    


Vinny

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 11:25 AM »
Brice, that is THE reason. Too much fiddling around with miters in way out corners. Not to agree with Ken, but an old time cabinet shop guy from JLC who was at the party said the exact same thing as Ken to me after the demo. If Ken can miter and not get call backs then he is a genius bc hes doing it faster the. brice and myself. In carpentry i think its the most efficient, enjoyable, long lasting, most aesthetically pleasing method that you should use. Everyones different, no right answer, but interesting discussion. We should really take it somewhere else though??? eric

Offline VSM_4

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 11:26 AM »
BTW Eric,  Ken convinced Dave and me that we shouldn't go because you were doing the demo with MDF.

 [poke]
Vinny

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 11:34 AM »
Vinny,

I don't know if it was the video, but the pump sounded louder than pumps I've heard and maybe that has something to do with it coming from Harbor Freight and being a lot less expensive than other pumps.

I've heard your response about the Schmalz system price by others.  Understandable.  I'm almost 100% sure they make the Vacsys for Festool.  Either way, German products typically carry that high price tag.

I agree with your thoughts on Peter's setup.  Since this has just come out, I'll take a wait and see attitude.  Vacuum clamping isn't something I've done and I agree that there are times when it's a better solution.  Like Eric said in his video, shuffling the quick clamps around on the MFT can be a PITB.

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 11:48 AM »
Guys, if you had a radio on while the pump was on, you would still be able to hear the words. Since the pump doesnt come with the package it would be up to you to get a noisy one or a loud one. This is the cheapest model from Harbor Freight.

I live sealing up the MFT top. I sanded mine with a 2000 grit foam pad after i was done finishing. It is amazing, no glue would stick. I am gonna do my other two MFTs when I get around to it. I used LenMars Moisture Cured Urethane over Shallac bc i felt it self leveled better.

I only had a week to prepare, while preparing for the most exclusive woodworking event of 2013, so i didnt get to explore the realm of possibilities of the Vac Dogs fully, but initially i am very impressed and i think that when the pricing is announced a lot of woodworkers will find uses for it. If you guys have any questions I can try to answer them for you, Eric

Offline VSM_4

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 11:55 AM »
I've heard your response about the Schmalz system price by others.  Understandable.  I'm almost 100% sure they make the Vacsys for Festool.  Either way, German products typically carry that high price tag.

I agree with your thoughts on Peter's setup.  Since this has just come out, I'll take a wait and see attitude.  Vacuum clamping isn't something I've done and I agree that there are times when it's a better solution.  Like Eric said in his video, shuffling the quick clamps around on the MFT can be a PITB.

Regardless of the German origin, its not the initial price, more like a bang per buck.  The XL (or domino 500) is expensive, but worth it IMO, a game changer.  Will a vac clamp change my world... don't know, but I doubt it.  

I'm not trying to be negative, just my observation from the video.  

To quantify it a bit - I'd be willing to spend $100 and 1 hour in set up to try a vacuum clamping system.  That's roughly the cost of the clamping elements and they require no set up.      

« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 11:57 AM by Vindingo »
Vinny

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 12:05 PM »
You can set up Qwas's system in under five minutes, Eric

Offline VSM_4

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2012, 12:20 PM »
I live sealing up the MFT top. I sanded mine with a 2000 grit foam pad after i was done finishing. It is amazing, no glue would stick. I am gonna do my other two MFTs when I get around to it. I used LenMars Moisture Cured Urethane over Shallac bc i felt it self leveled better.

You can set up Qwas's system in under five minutes, Eric

super quick drying urethane?   

 [poke]

[popcorn]


Its not my intention to disrespect the product, so I'm not gonna post my opinions on it anymore.  I'm sure it could be great for other people's needs
Vinny

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2012, 12:38 PM »
Regardless of the German origin, its not the initial price, more like a bang per buck.  The XL (or domino 500) is expensive, but worth it IMO, a game changer.  Will a vac clamp change my world... don't know, but I doubt it.....  



Vinny, I have one of those German vac systems and it is a game changer.  The time it saves is huge.  And it's not just the time, it all the aggravation of shuffling clamps.  It may not be as big of an impact as the XL in capabilities, it's the everyday time savings and easy of use. 
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ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2012, 01:18 PM »
Vinny, it drys quicker here bc our air quality is nicer [scratch chin] Eric

Offline Festoolfootstool

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2012, 03:01 PM »
For me the key to any vac sys is getting the work piece up and away from the bench in either a horizontal or vertical plane which is where the festool excells

it speeds up proccesing components and makes it more of a pleasant and ordered task
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2012, 03:32 PM »
I see the Qwas system as being quickly adaptable to many set ups. Use them in the MFT/3 or Kapex MFT. Ultimate Workbench, a home made elevated piece, anything that you want to put 20mm holes in. In that way it can be easily used in multiple places.

On the bench top , as opposed to a raised  holder, very large pieces could be clamped and supported. Then for another operation the dogs  could be quickly  inserted into a different type of table or "holder".

Just some thoughts.


Seth

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2012, 03:41 PM »
Seth, I have to check with Steve but Im pretty sure that he told me that those dogs will fit 13/16" also. I am going to get one of these at 20mm http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/searchprods.asp and make a vertical jig for dominoing cab sides.

Seth saw them in action, he know whats up, Eric

Offline mwildt

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2012, 03:52 PM »

Like the idea for sure.

Instead of playing with weather stripping one could potentially route a groove for an o-ring instead. Of course if you later cut inside that 'groove' then it may no longer work, but you save the whole adding the weather strip each time. One could also make an inlay of plastic with this prefitted as well.

Michael

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2012, 05:19 PM »
The dog is 13/16" in diameter so the hole needs to be slightly under that. A 25/32" drill would do. You could make your own table and not "screw" up your MFT top. But lets get real, if youre on this forum you should really have a few MFTs laying around, Eric

Offline Alan m

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2012, 08:10 PM »
looks like a great product. damb you qwas. i was nearly out of things to buy.
i wish.

anyway any idea on price etc. there is no price on the website.
is there a closer pic of the parts in question. the vid shows the operation great but not much of the product itself
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Offline Qwas

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2012, 08:56 PM »
 [thanks] I would like to thank Eric for doing the demonstration and being patient with me and I would like to thank Charles for taking the time to record the demo and then edit and upload the video. It's much appreciated.

For those of you with saw kerfs all over the table top, I'm sorry but my product is probably not going to work. There are products like Liquid Tape that may help but at this time my focus is on making it work on a smooth top.

For those of you with smooth tops; I think you will discover that you will put the rubber strip down and leave it down for several jobs before removing. The glue is pretty strong and the strips can be reused several times. Right now you can buy the rubber strips for 15ยข a foot so I don't think you will be too worried about the rubber.

There seems to be some concern about shellacking or painting the MFT top. Most of you know I've always been against this because it creates a smooth top that allows the workpiece to slide. It doesn't need to be that smooth, you can sand it down. Also, the rubber strips will take care of any sliding. The added benefit is your top is now protected from any accidental spills.

Some of you thought the pump was loud. I believe the microphone and pump were aligned and it sounded louder than it really is. If you notice, Eric never raised his voice as the pump turns on. The pump makes less noise than the TS-55 saw and the dust collector, or a router. If noise is a problem, you could build a 3 sided box that surrounds the pump on all but one side. Point this side away from you. This would also help keep the pump out of sawdust.

Seth gets it. This is a kit for you to use as you like. Want it raised off the table? Build a little box that attaches to the side rail and put a 20 mm hole in the top of the box. Want to clamp vertically? Clamp a board to the side of the MFT with a 20 mm hole. Want to hold a board while cutting it?  Do you have a long board that needs the edge routed or Dominoed? Use the kit on the table top. Use one Vac Dog and hole at the left side of the top, another in the middle (for sawing, put it under the guide rail), and a third on the right, or waste side of the table top. Don't forget the board can hang over the edge if you use the first row of holes for the Vac Dogs. Need to cut a wide board or plywood? Put  a Vac Dog under the guide rail in a hole towards the top of the table and another towards the bottom. You can still use the 3rd Vac Dog to hold the cut off piece.

The Vac Dog Kit is expandable by buying another manifold and more dogs. You could now have 5 or 6 Vac Dogs to hold the workpiece(s) or having multiple "stations" setup on the table. Multiple vacuum pumps allows each "station" to be individually controlled.

Pricing is still being worked on but we're talking about $300 range gets you the kit, pump and everything. I will only be selling the Vacuum Dog Kit, not the pumps. I'm still working on a couple of small details but hope to have this available for sale in just a couple of weeks.  

Offline Qwas

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2012, 09:06 PM »
Hi Alan, I hope all is well with you.  [smile]

I will try to get some pictures in the next few days and perhaps another video. I appreciate everyone's patience. It's been some trying times.

ericbuggeln

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Re: Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2012, 09:13 PM »
Steve, I got your back.

Here is all the fun stuff. What you see is a Vac Dog with screw - a Plug Dog, a Vac Dog with suction side showing, a Vac Dog with hose side showing, the manifold without MFT extrusion attachment and the manifold attached to MFT.

Steve I had a lot of fun working with you, thanks Eric