Author Topic: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400  (Read 29832 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Forrest Anderson

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2010, 03:13 PM »
I was hoping you would respond to the subject.  I wasn't comparing and old model with a newer model, rather the triangular pad vs rectangular pad within the same model so to speak.  What I was told by Festool when I was at a training there, was that there is a difference between the RTS 400EQ and DTS 400EQ and that you shouldn't buy one and then change the pad out to the other due to differences in balancing.  I know others have done just that and haven't complained of feeling any difference.  So I'm not sure why they told us that in class.  Either I was given bad info or there is another explanation that we aren't seeing.  I don't doubt Alex in seeing the exact same part numbers but that isn't necessarily the complete answer. 

I put in a call to see if anyone knows the complete answer.   Hopefully they will have the time to enlighten us.

OK! Let us know what they say!

Personally, I think it would be great if Festool offered this type of sander as a kit with two easily interchangeable pads - you just clip on the pad you want for the job in hand, and off you go. Maybe the next generation of palm sanders will be like that...

Forrest
Compiler of the Consolidated List of Festool Links - the place to go for Festool reviews, manuals, brochures and videos!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2010, 03:20 PM »
Forrest,

I agree, having a dual head sander would be best.  The two models mentioned are 205.00 each here in the US, so neither is that bad.  The expense comes from buying ten boxes of sandpaper in rectangular and triangular in all the needed grits.  I have the Deltex right now so my plan was to get the rectangular pad sander next and be done with it,  but if festool comes out with a dual mode I'd lean more that direction and buy another assortment of sand paper.
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10879
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2010, 03:41 PM »
Wayne and others,

Sorry, I have been away from the computer for a while today.  Wayne heard the statement regarding the differences in the internal vibration dampening while we were at the Training class at the end of August.  So did I.  I am wondering if there is a possibility that the online parts diagram doesn't have the new part numbers.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Wood_Junkie

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2010, 04:52 PM »
Oye, good discussion today!

I had hoped only to answer the *can* you do it question.  Yes, they can be swapped with relatively minor fuss and about $24 worth of parts (pad, plate, clamping strap).

Whether they should or not is a morale / warranty question. 
I look forward to anything our much-loved Festool staff can provide us regarding the mechanics.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5478
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2010, 05:07 PM »
Suppose the part numbers were identical but attached differently in each model causing a different balance.

So in how many ways can you attach something to a round object?

The anchor inside the sander is completely round, as anchors for a motor usually are. To run smooth it must also be completely symmetrical. Only the lowest part No.31 in the parts diagram called 'Cam' is asymmetric. But it's center attaches right in the middle of the anchor. I'm sorry but I find the theory of different ways to mount the parts far fetched. I also don't think it's needed. I took my DS400 apart some time ago, and if you feel the weight difference between the motor and the pad (is BIG) then you'll know that the weight difference between the square and the Delta pad are close to negligible compared to the motor housing.  I sincerely doubt it is needed to modify a heavy part that spins with 14000 RPM just to counter a couple of grams in weight shift.

Also, if, as you say the counterweight is somehow modified, it is still attached to the anchor so when it spins, the force will be applied in all directions equally. I don't see how a force that is applied equally in all directions still is able to encounter the effect of different pad shapes.

But I sure am curious to hear what a real Festool rep has to tell us about this. And then I hope not someone with sales related knowledge but with engineering knowledge. But I think you're susceptible to the theory Forrest mentioned, about the story in different counterweights between the old RS/DS models and the new RTS/DTS.

Btw, I'm sorry if the links I gave to the Dutch Festool side don't work all the time. Only last Saturday did they change to a new design. Things aren't running entirely stable yet.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10879
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2010, 06:33 PM »
Respectfully to all posters,

As a member - and also a moderator - I think that it is unreasonable to expect that a manufacturer it going to give advice that could lead to an owner opening their manufactured product to make alterations - all which would void warranties and could depending on the complexity of the product - place the opener at risk based on their skills, etc.

Does Dewalt, Makita, BMW, Mercedes Benz, General Motors, Boeing, etc....? 

Just my thoughts,

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5478
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2010, 07:17 PM »
Peter, if they mentioned this on the training day it's hardly a secret, is it?

People, like me, who have their mind set on being able to use the xTS with both pads aren't deterred anyway by a vague story about counterweights not being the same while the parts diagrams list no differences.

A detailed explanation from Festool could only deter people from making the switch, not encourage them.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 07:23 PM by Alex »

Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2010, 07:34 PM »
Peter,

I agree as I stated earlier that it's entirely possible that Festool told us that so they weren't sanctioning us to open up the sander.  And that would make sense as well.  But that really didn't seem like the case at the time.  Seems like they really meant there was a difference.  My conclusion is still the same.  Either there is a real reason that we don't yet understand or we were given faulty info.  As for Forrest's theory, it makes sense as a possible explanation, but when we asked the question we were specifically talking about the two newest units I mentioned earlier.

Alex,

Everything you say makes total sense and your description of the part number is correct.  However, I'll give you an example of a single part that is used in two different ways.  

On the Trion, the part number for the circle cutter on the Trion ps 200 and ps 300 is the same.  However, when you use it correctly on the 200 you use one hole to attach it and it works correctly.  When you use it on the 300 you use a different hole to attach it and it works correctly.  If you use the wrong hole it doesn't work properly and you get poor out of square cuts and bent blades.  But it is the identical part on both units...just attached differently for a different effect on two similar saws.  

It's just a possibility which could explain the same part getting a different effect on two different sanders.  Also the manual online may be incorrect for some reason.  I really don't know the answer.  You could very possibly be correct and they are identical and interchangeable in every way.  I'm just not totally convinced since I was told different by Festool in Indiana at their headquarters.  And I wasn't talking with a sales staff...  but he wasn't an engineer either.   We'll see what they have to say when they call me back.  I will also ask them if it voids the warranty for sure or not.  Shane is being awfully quiet on this one eh?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 07:37 PM by wnagle »
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Guy Ashley

  • Posts: 662
  • Furniture & Cabinet Maker/Joiner
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2010, 03:15 PM »
I heard from a Festool rep a couple weeks ago that the two are becoming one machine with interchangeable pads...which makes a lot of sense.  I guess we will see if it comes true or not...

Best,
Todd

Forrest

The above quote is what I picked up on. I haven't attributed anything to you.

Regards

Guy
DIPLOMACY:

"The art of being able to tell someone to go to Hades in such a way that they positively look forward to the journey"

Offline Forrest Anderson

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2010, 03:18 PM »
I heard from a Festool rep a couple weeks ago that the two are becoming one machine with interchangeable pads...which makes a lot of sense.  I guess we will see if it comes true or not...

The above quote is what I picked up on. I haven't attributed anything to you.

Thanks for the link! I'd forgotten about that post from last year, and hope that it's true! I'll keep my eyes open for any news about it...

Forrest

Compiler of the Consolidated List of Festool Links - the place to go for Festool reviews, manuals, brochures and videos!

Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1160
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2010, 01:30 PM »
Well it is possible that Festool told me that just keep my grubby little fingers out of the insieds of the sander for my own protection. 

Or,....... nothing to do with fingers & sanders and more to do with fingers & wallets? [2cents] [popcorn]
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline wow

  • Inactive Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3579
  • Official WalMart greeter to the FOG
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2014, 09:32 PM »
Brought this back from the dead because there seem to be fairly frequent "should I buy a DTS400 or RTS400" posts. Any chance they will soon become one sander with multiple bases, which would seem infinitely wise for some of us?

No, I wouldn't mind owning a second sander or systainer, but if they aren't going to be merged as a single model why not offer them as a set?
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 689
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2014, 11:38 AM »
This has been a very timely discussion for me.  I own an ETS 150/5 and an RTS 400.  I was considering purchasing a delta pad sander and was about to ask the question whether people would recommend a DTS 400 or whether it was worth the extra money (given the sanders I own) to purchase an RO 90.   Given the above discussion, now there are more options.

I'm not sure I feel like tearing apart my DTS 400 as I just bought it a few months ago and the warranty would be out the window.  I'm wondering if I should sell it while it has a lot of value and hope for a combo RTS/DTS model.  Or, wondering if the combined RTS/DTS model will use the base unit of the existing sander simply adding an extra interface layer to make the pads interchangeable.  If that is true then I'm wondering if this interface could be retrofit onto an existing RTS 400.   If that were the case it might be worth tearing the sander apart to essentially upgrade it to a new model.

Jay




Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10879
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2014, 12:31 PM »
I wouldn't put on hold any plans for a sander to wait for a combo or retrofit DTS/ RTS sander.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline w802h

  • Posts: 205
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2014, 05:29 PM »
When I was considering my initial purchase, I swapped out the pads between the two models at my dealer and they fit... that said I live life on the straight and narrow so I bought the RTS.  If memory serves, the ETS fits too.  I thought the RTS shape was more useful for my needs and it felt like I'd be able to keep it flatter where I might bear on the point of the DTS or roll the edge of a round pad.  I considered buying a different pad without the dealer/festool endorsement, but I didn't want to stock two different profile papers for very similar machines.  If push comes to shove I've got a Multimaster for my delta needs - although I don't like it for sanding and rarely use it. 

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 689
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2014, 05:48 PM »
Thanks.  So given I have an ETS 150/5 and the RTS 400, is there something the RO 90 is going to offer me that justifies the higher cost compared to the DTS 400?  If I didn't have the ETS 150/5 it would be a no brainier and I would get the RO 90.  Given I have the ETS 150/5 I'm just not sure what the other features of the RO 90 are going to offer me other than the opportunity to buy even more sandpaper  [smile]

Thanks.

Jay

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2014, 06:30 PM »
Thanks.  So given I have an ETS 150/5 and the RTS 400, is there something the RO 90 is going to offer me that justifies the higher cost compared to the DTS 400?  If I didn't have the ETS 150/5 it would be a no brainier and I would get the RO 90.  Given I have the ETS 150/5 I'm just not sure what the other features of the RO 90 are going to offer me other than the opportunity to buy even more sandpaper  [smile]

Thanks.

Jay

Depends entirely upon what you do for work. Not all delta are created equal or for the same purpose, in my opinion. The DTS is a great and well balanced orbital that happens to have 3 points, nice curves and a beautiful beveled edge all of which ideally suit it for fine work. Cabinet grade sanding, drywall patch sanding etc. The 90 in delta (to me) is a low grit crevice tool. It will rarely find its way into cabinet corners or patched corners with me. Flip side, the DTS will rarely find its way into low grit crevice sanding for me.

The stroke of the tool is often the best indicator of its best uses.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5478
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2014, 06:39 PM »
Thanks.  So given I have an ETS 150/5 and the RTS 400, is there something the RO 90 is going to offer me that justifies the higher cost compared to the DTS 400?  If I didn't have the ETS 150/5 it would be a no brainier and I would get the RO 90.  Given I have the ETS 150/5 I'm just not sure what the other features of the RO 90 are going to offer me other than the opportunity to buy even more sandpaper  [smile]

You talk sort of casual about how the 3 sanders you mention are almost identical, but that certainly isn't the case. All 3 sanders are very different and have their own strengths.

Especially the DTS400 and the RO90 are very different sanders, the DTS is a very gentle sander for the finer finish work while the RO 90 is a very powerfull sander, like all Rotex sanders, and is best used for fast material removal.

So in short, the RO 90 is going to offer you a lot the DTS won't offer you, but the other way around is also true. You should not compare them on the simple fact they both have a pad with a pointy shape.  

I have both sanders and I do a lot of paint work on houses. The DTS400 is my most used sander, because it works best for preparing the surface for paint work. The RO 90 is also used often, but more for stripping bad spots down to wood. On larger areas I break out the RO 150 or the RAS 115 for that. But the DTS does most of the work because it leaves the best surface for finish work. The RO 90 is not so suited for finish work, it's very agressive and the pad is too small, so it's easy to make dimples if you don't watch out.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 689
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2014, 07:13 PM »
Thanks Alex and Scott.  That was exactly the kind of detailed info I was looking for.  I am a hobbyist building Craftsman furniture so it sounds like the DTS 400 makes much more sense.  In delta sanding mode it wasn't clear to me that there was still a significant power difference between the 2 sanders.

Thanks again for your help

Jay

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2014, 07:31 PM »
Thanks Alex and Scott.  That was exactly the kind of detailed info I was looking for.  I am a hobbyist building Craftsman furniture so it sounds like the DTS 400 makes much more sense.  In delta sanding mode it wasn't clear to me that there was still a significant power difference between the 2 sanders.

Thanks again for your help

Jay

You're welcome. In that type of work, the DTS will be the more useful sander. Design and balance are much better. As well, the dust extraction will be superior.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 797
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2017, 12:02 PM »
Bumping an old thread here, wondering if anyone has figured out how to do the same with the new RTS/DTS 400 REQ models.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!