Author Topic: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400  (Read 27755 times)

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Offline vteknical

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Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« on: September 05, 2008, 11:23 PM »
Yes it can be done.  I know it voids the warranty.  Buying them seperately just did not seem right since they are exactly the same and Festool is supposedly all about a system.  I prefer the RTS setup up better for my needs.

How would Festool Service know you swaped the pads out anyway? 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 12:55 PM by vteknical »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Dovetail65

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Re: RTS and DTS 400
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2008, 11:25 PM »
Yes I agree,  I always thought that should be one sander offered with two bases not two separate sanders.

Nickao
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Les Spencer

  • Posts: 487
Re: RTS and DTS 400
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 12:12 AM »
 :) ;) :D ;D
Les (near Indy) XL

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: RTS and DTS 400
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 09:44 AM »
Thanks for posting, you want to post the part members here so other members can try this it they dare. If I remember you need a mounting plate and sanding pad to make the change, is that right? I can't see why this should void the warranty (I'm almost 100% certain it does).
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 09:44 AM by Brice Burrell »
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Offline John Langevin

  • Posts: 245
  • Springfield, MA
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 03:01 PM »
Vt,
I too have always wondered the same thing. However the local Woodcraft Store told me that they were not interchangeable. This didn't make any sense to me. I think they should make one sander with a quick change pad system. The fact that they don't has prevented me from buying either one.
Practicing Mediocrity Never Begets Perfection

Offline Dave Ronyak

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  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2008, 12:29 AM »
vteknical,

How much time does it take you to convert your sander from one pad configuration to the other?  On many jobs both a delta shaped pad and a rectangular shaped pad are needed to be most efficient.

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline soggycrow

  • Posts: 10
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 03:48 PM »
I just received the RTS today.  It's very light.  When I picked up the box I thought they had forgotten to pack something.  But everything was there.  The DTS is probably just a matter of time.  But my next priority is atable and plunging saw.

Offline soggycrow

  • Posts: 10
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2008, 03:42 PM »
Vt,
I too have always wondered the same thing. However the local Woodcraft Store told me that they were not interchangeable. This didn't make any sense to me. I think they should make one sander with a quick change pad system. The fact that they don't has prevented me from buying either one.

Festool wants you to buy and use their tools, but not muck around with them.  They don't want you to be mad at them if you make a mistake.  And people do make mistakes.  As for the guy at Woodcraft, I find most of those guys not too knowledgeable.  They seem to have a high turnover rate.  If he was knowledgeable what he should have said was that he couldn't guarantee that the pads were interchangeable and that the company provides no help.

Offline Mike Chrest

  • Posts: 386
  • N.W. New York State
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2008, 08:25 PM »
Voids the warranty :o :o :o

Oops. I switched my DTS to a RTS a couple years ago. No problems yet. I still have the triangle pad but find the rectangle more useful. Takes about five minutes to switch back and forth.

Mike

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5389
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 06:19 AM »
I am planning on buying the RTS too and then possibly get the DTS pad and convert it when needed. I was wondering if this was possible as they seem to be the exact same sander. This thread has exactly the information I was looking for and I'm glad it's confirmed it is possible.

However, I got one question when I look at the photos, it seems that the holes for the bolts on both pads are on different places, the DTS's hind holes are placed farther apart than on the RTS pad.

Can anyone tell me how they still connect to the sander motor house?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 06:20 AM by Alex »

Offline Charimon

  • Posts: 651
  • Tool and Tile Junkie
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 12:07 AM »
Alex

The 4 screws that mount the pad to the Housing are the silver  Torx screws not the brass threaded inserts you were identifying.

Thanks Craig
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 12:08 AM by score0matic »
"The existence of the flame thrower proves that at one time, somewhere, somebody said, " You Know, There's a group of people over there that I'd like to set on fire right now but they're too far away."

Offline Alex

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 04:12 AM »
Ah I see now, how silly of me to have missed that, thanks for clearing that up score0matic.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:47 AM by Alex »

Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2009, 02:17 PM »
Just found this thread - I've got a DTS400, and took the base off the other day to try to see if it was possible to convert it to the RTS.

vtek -

I don't know if your sander is slightly older, or if it's different because it's a USA machine, but on mine the black plastic moulding that is the 'base' of the sander (as opposed to the 'pad') is different to the one in the pics.

Basically, there are 4x black machine screws which release the 'pad' section from the base. Then, there are 4x silver screws which hold the base onto the sander. Removing these doesn't release the base. it appears that the base on mine goes up inside the rubber 'skirt'. I can't see this on yours.

To remove the base on mine it appears that you'd need to remove/release the bottom one of the two metal bands, and I can't see a way of doing that without either a) damaging the band or b) damaging myself in the process...

Can you confirm if yours came off without removing the clamp?


Edit: Looking at the pics again, it's clear that mine is a different design to yours - the 4x silver screws that hold the base on are 45 degrees rotated in relation to yours - yours are at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock, and 9 o'clock. Mine are at 1:30, 4:30, 7:30 and 10:30 (if that makes sense?).

Also, on yours the lower section of the case that incorporates the dust port appears to be an aluminium casting - mine is the same moulded plastic as the top section.

I agree that the bases should be easily interchangeable though, as you say it's supposed to be a system...
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 02:26 PM by jonny round boy »
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5389
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2009, 06:06 PM »
This thread should be called Converting an RS400 to a DS400, since the model displayed in the pictures is the older RS / DS Version. The part with the dust collection port on it is grey whereas with the newer RTS / DTS models it is black.

But that would really suck if you can't exchange the pads anymore. Who oh why would Festool do such a thing while they're constantly hammering on their "SYSTEM" approach and telling us their machines save money? It would be so easy to design a Fastfix interchangeable pad.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 12:10 PM by Alex »

Offline John Langevin

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  • Springfield, MA
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2009, 08:59 PM »
Alex, See my original post above, right on!
Practicing Mediocrity Never Begets Perfection

Offline Notorious T.O.D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2009, 01:51 PM »
I heard from a Festool rep a couple weeks ago that the two are becoming one machine with interchangeable pads...which makes a lot of sense.  I guess we will see if it comes true or not...

Best,
Todd

Offline NVA_WW

  • Posts: 245
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 09:06 PM »
Any more news on whether the RTS and DTS will become one and the same with interchangeable pads?  Or whether you really can convert an RTS 400 to a DTS 400 or vice versa?  I am ready to take the plunge on the RTS or RS, but wanted to double check before I pull the plug.  TIA
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 09:14 PM by NVA_WW »

Offline Wonderwino

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 05:01 PM »
That would be the R&D400S, due for release when the metric system is adopted in the US.    [poke] [scratch chin]
Water separates the people of the world; wine unites them.

Offline Wood_Junkie

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400 - ANSWERED!
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 11:22 PM »
Proceed with your own cautions about opening up your tool!

I was too curious, and I love taking stuff apart... 

Before:
Standard, weeks old DTS400.  Hellooooo beautiful!

19284-0


Oh my!  What happened!?!
19286-1

 The *bottom* retaining ring must be removed.  I used a pair of needle nose pliers and great patience and care.  The factory installed band is press-clamped into place and the retaining tabs must be basically twisted off to release the band.  An alternative would be to Dremel through the rentangular "bump".


The Frankenstein surgery continues.  Here I've taken the DTS pad and DTS plate off, and show the new parts in the back.  On the left is the old retaining band, and on the right is part #453-707 ("Clamping strap") item #24 on the Festool part diagram.
19288-2


Reassembly requires putting the clamping strap in place first, then fitting the plate, and ensuring there are no folds or bumps on the rubber boot.  Once the plate is secured I tightened down the clamping strap, making sure it didn't pinch anywhere.  Finally, attaching the pad.


Here my little friend has gone all rectangular and $^!#, and one might suspect it is a mis-labeled RTS400.  Abra cadabra!
19290-3

The initial process took me about 25 minutes.  The most time consuming process was the careful removal of the stock strap.  I used only hand tools to make sure I didn't over-tighten anything.  It requires a T40 Torx bit, and a very small phillips for the replacement Clamping Strap (I used a computer-kit screwdriver).

I plugged it in and ran it for a bit as a RTS to make sure it was sanding, orbiting and not doing anything untoward.

For the sake of the curious I then did the reverso-chango and timed it.  4 minutes, 30 seconds flat to switch back to the DTS configuration.  I already had my drivers handy, soo.. YMMV.
Since my Systainer is configured for the DTS, and it doesn't fit in RTS 'mode', I'll let it sleep as a DTS.  RTS will only awaken when I specifically need it.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5389
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2010, 03:49 AM »
Nice work wood junkie. I never had a clue the replacement strip would come with a screw and just assumed Festool repairmen had a special tool to clamp it in place. If it only took you 4 minutes to change it is certainly worth doing it.

But it does look like you've just sacrificed your warranty on your brand new sander.

Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 12:01 PM »
Even though you can take the RTS or DTS apart and change pads,  the current models have different counter weights that reduce vibration.  So if you change them you won't get optimal anti vibration that was designed into the two sanders.  

I'm sure the new model will be interchangeable by design and this won't be an issue.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 12:34 PM by wnagle »
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5389
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 12:46 PM »
Even though you can take the RTS or DTS apart and change pads,  the current models have different counter weights that reduce vibration.  So if you change them you won't get optimal anti vibration that was designed into the two sanders.  

I checked each part of the two sanders on the parts diagram website. They are identical, except for the bottom plate of course. So I don't know where you get that idea about different counter weights.

Offline Wood_Junkie

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 01:26 PM »
Even though you can take the RTS or DTS apart and change pads,  the current models have different counter weights that reduce vibration.  So if you change them you won't get optimal anti vibration that was designed into the two sanders.  

I checked each part of the two sanders on the parts diagram website. They are identical, except for the bottom plate of course. So I don't know where you get that idea about different counter weights.

They are different between the RS/DS 400 models and the RTS/DTS 400 models.  But they are the same within each model line.  That was one of the officially reported enhancements to the tool, by Festool, making the xTS improved over the RS/DS.

As Alex pointed out, and I did the same sleuthing (someone else posted it before.. I can't remember who), the parts lists are *identical*, every single part, from top to bottom, except for the plate and the pad.

What I could see Festool doing, in creating a unifiied orbital sander, is adding a sub-base plate.  This would be the part which attaches at the rubber boot and is secured by the clamping strap.  It would be a simple thing, then, to attach different plates and pads without compromising any rules about opening up a machine.  Just my two-cents.

Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 01:27 PM »
Alex,

It actually wasn't  my idea.  I'm really not that smart.  And maybe I re-stated it wrong but I was told by Festool that there are differences in the balancing system between the two and if interchanged you would not get optimal minimal vibration.  Maybe it's not the exact part, rather how it is designed, I'm not sure.  And even if they took the time to more fully explain it I may not totally understand it.  They just said the counterbalancing is different for each sander.  It was probqably my assumption that the actual weight was different.

That being said:  I suppose anyone is welcome to change their pad anyway.  However I thought I would relay the info from Festool as to why they aren't interchangeable.  Posibly some people wouldn't want to make the change having this knowledge.

No offense to you at all but if Festool tells me they are different in how they are balanced and shouldn't be interchanged, and you tell me they are the same...again no offense meant at all to you, but I think I'd rather rely on information directly from festool.  Others on here may too.  I suppose there are some who would deduce that Festool just told me that so they could sell two sanders instead of one, but I am not a conspiracy theorist, so I take them at there word.  And I suppose the person at Festool could have been mistaken but again I'd rather err on the safe side.

For me personally, at the moment it is a moot point, since I don't have either sander, I will wait until the new one comes out.  Even if I had both sanders I wouldn't try to interchange them.  I'd rather have both sanders since they aren't that expensive and I'd rather not have to deal with the hassle of making the changes back and forth.  (I have two band saws in my shop so I won't have to change blades as often)

Not to mention it may void the warranty even if I didn't screw something up taking it apart.

Just my take on the subject.
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2857
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2010, 01:47 PM »
Could be the spinning brass counterweight is a different mass
for different pads but doesn't look different.

Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2010, 01:59 PM »
Maybe it was Brian who told me...that could make the information suspect!!!   [embarassed]
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5389
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2010, 02:26 PM »

No offense to you at all but if Festool tells me they are different in how they are balanced and shouldn't be interchanged, and you tell me they are the same...again no offense meant at all to you, but I think I'd rather rely on information directly from festool.  


Well, if somebody from Festool told you that then you interpreted it wrongly or he was simply wrong.

As far as I know, a part number is a part number. I checked the parts diagram and compared all part numbers from the DTS to those of the RTS. Except from the base plate and the sanding pad EVERY part number was the same. I checked very thoroughly.

But if you don't want to rely on my ability to check soemthing like that out (or wood_junkie's), fine, check it yourself.

I'll send you to the Dutch site for this because the American site list the 120 volt model for the RTS and the 230 volt model for the DTS, so they will be different of course and more difficult to check. But on the Dutch site you can see the 230 volt models of the DTS and RTS side by side.

DTS400 EQ 230v

RTS400 EQ 230v

Maybe you're not inclined to take Alex' word over that of Festool, but how about you take Festool's word over that of ........ Festool?   [huh]

Lemme know what you think.
 

Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2010, 02:40 PM »
Alex,

Well it is possible that Festool told me that just keep my grubby little fingers out of the insieds of the sander for my own protection.  But just for the sake of discussion.  Suppose the part numbers were identical but attached differently in each model causing a different balance.  It wouldn't surprise me much if one part could be used in both sanders in just a slightly different way to get a different effect.  Maybe I should call Festool service and get a second opinion since they haven't chimed in yet. 

And just to clear things up about taking your word for it, You are the smartest person I know from the Netherlands.  Well your the only person I know from the netherlands but from my statistical perspective your still on top! [poke]
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Forrest Anderson

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2010, 02:53 PM »
Wayne

I think the problem is that the Festool Knowledgebase says:


Q: What are the differences between the new palm sanders: RTS400, DTS400 and ETS125; compared to the older models: RS400, DS400 and ES125?

A: The improvements made to the new palm sanders, ETS125, RTS400, DTS400 are mainly internal; you may not notice any difference in how they look. The counterweight has been reshaped to provide better balance and stability. The cooling fan housing is now made of metal and the new fan is less likely to come in contact with the housing. This lessens the tendency for the sander to hop around, and will result in fewer swirl marks. On the ETS125, the rubber pad brake now has holes around the periphery. This prevents vacuum lock when connected to a vacuum, which allows for better pad rotation, making the sander easier to move across the work piece. This will also results in fewer swirl marks. Some have felt that these new sanders are not as aggressive as the older models. What you are actually noticing is improved performance and less vibration due to the improvements.


You will hopefully now see why it might be thought that the story you relate about the counterbalance being different between the DTS and RTS is a corruption of the above statement by Festool which says that the counterweight is different between the DTS and the DS, and between the RTS and RS?

Forrest

Compiler of the Consolidated List of Festool Links - the place to go for Festool reviews, manuals, brochures and videos!

Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2010, 03:06 PM »
Forrest,

I was hoping you would respond to the subject.  I wasn't comparing and old model with a newer model, rather the triangular pad vs rectangular pad within the same model so to speak.  What I was told by Festool when I was at a training there, was that there is a difference between the RTS 400EQ and DTS 400EQ and that you shouldn't buy one and then change the pad out to the other due to differences in balancing.  I know others have done just that and haven't complained of feeling any difference.  So I'm not sure why they told us that in class.  Either I was given bad info or there is another explanation that we aren't seeing.  I don't doubt Alex in seeing the exact same part numbers but that isn't necessarily the complete answer.  

I put in a call to see if anyone knows the complete answer.   Hopefully they will have the time to enlighten us.

Edit:  These are the kinds of things one can do while stranded in a hotel out of town where one can't actually use his sanders! [doh]
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 03:10 PM by wnagle »
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Forrest Anderson

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2010, 03:13 PM »
I was hoping you would respond to the subject.  I wasn't comparing and old model with a newer model, rather the triangular pad vs rectangular pad within the same model so to speak.  What I was told by Festool when I was at a training there, was that there is a difference between the RTS 400EQ and DTS 400EQ and that you shouldn't buy one and then change the pad out to the other due to differences in balancing.  I know others have done just that and haven't complained of feeling any difference.  So I'm not sure why they told us that in class.  Either I was given bad info or there is another explanation that we aren't seeing.  I don't doubt Alex in seeing the exact same part numbers but that isn't necessarily the complete answer. 

I put in a call to see if anyone knows the complete answer.   Hopefully they will have the time to enlighten us.

OK! Let us know what they say!

Personally, I think it would be great if Festool offered this type of sander as a kit with two easily interchangeable pads - you just clip on the pad you want for the job in hand, and off you go. Maybe the next generation of palm sanders will be like that...

Forrest
Compiler of the Consolidated List of Festool Links - the place to go for Festool reviews, manuals, brochures and videos!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2010, 03:20 PM »
Forrest,

I agree, having a dual head sander would be best.  The two models mentioned are 205.00 each here in the US, so neither is that bad.  The expense comes from buying ten boxes of sandpaper in rectangular and triangular in all the needed grits.  I have the Deltex right now so my plan was to get the rectangular pad sander next and be done with it,  but if festool comes out with a dual mode I'd lean more that direction and buy another assortment of sand paper.
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2010, 03:41 PM »
Wayne and others,

Sorry, I have been away from the computer for a while today.  Wayne heard the statement regarding the differences in the internal vibration dampening while we were at the Training class at the end of August.  So did I.  I am wondering if there is a possibility that the online parts diagram doesn't have the new part numbers.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Wood_Junkie

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2010, 04:52 PM »
Oye, good discussion today!

I had hoped only to answer the *can* you do it question.  Yes, they can be swapped with relatively minor fuss and about $24 worth of parts (pad, plate, clamping strap).

Whether they should or not is a morale / warranty question. 
I look forward to anything our much-loved Festool staff can provide us regarding the mechanics.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5389
Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2010, 05:07 PM »
Suppose the part numbers were identical but attached differently in each model causing a different balance.

So in how many ways can you attach something to a round object?

The anchor inside the sander is completely round, as anchors for a motor usually are. To run smooth it must also be completely symmetrical. Only the lowest part No.31 in the parts diagram called 'Cam' is asymmetric. But it's center attaches right in the middle of the anchor. I'm sorry but I find the theory of different ways to mount the parts far fetched. I also don't think it's needed. I took my DS400 apart some time ago, and if you feel the weight difference between the motor and the pad (is BIG) then you'll know that the weight difference between the square and the Delta pad are close to negligible compared to the motor housing.  I sincerely doubt it is needed to modify a heavy part that spins with 14000 RPM just to counter a couple of grams in weight shift.

Also, if, as you say the counterweight is somehow modified, it is still attached to the anchor so when it spins, the force will be applied in all directions equally. I don't see how a force that is applied equally in all directions still is able to encounter the effect of different pad shapes.

But I sure am curious to hear what a real Festool rep has to tell us about this. And then I hope not someone with sales related knowledge but with engineering knowledge. But I think you're susceptible to the theory Forrest mentioned, about the story in different counterweights between the old RS/DS models and the new RTS/DTS.

Btw, I'm sorry if the links I gave to the Dutch Festool side don't work all the time. Only last Saturday did they change to a new design. Things aren't running entirely stable yet.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2010, 06:33 PM »
Respectfully to all posters,

As a member - and also a moderator - I think that it is unreasonable to expect that a manufacturer it going to give advice that could lead to an owner opening their manufactured product to make alterations - all which would void warranties and could depending on the complexity of the product - place the opener at risk based on their skills, etc.

Does Dewalt, Makita, BMW, Mercedes Benz, General Motors, Boeing, etc....? 

Just my thoughts,

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Alex

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2010, 07:17 PM »
Peter, if they mentioned this on the training day it's hardly a secret, is it?

People, like me, who have their mind set on being able to use the xTS with both pads aren't deterred anyway by a vague story about counterweights not being the same while the parts diagrams list no differences.

A detailed explanation from Festool could only deter people from making the switch, not encourage them.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 07:23 PM by Alex »

Offline wnagle

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2010, 07:34 PM »
Peter,

I agree as I stated earlier that it's entirely possible that Festool told us that so they weren't sanctioning us to open up the sander.  And that would make sense as well.  But that really didn't seem like the case at the time.  Seems like they really meant there was a difference.  My conclusion is still the same.  Either there is a real reason that we don't yet understand or we were given faulty info.  As for Forrest's theory, it makes sense as a possible explanation, but when we asked the question we were specifically talking about the two newest units I mentioned earlier.

Alex,

Everything you say makes total sense and your description of the part number is correct.  However, I'll give you an example of a single part that is used in two different ways.  

On the Trion, the part number for the circle cutter on the Trion ps 200 and ps 300 is the same.  However, when you use it correctly on the 200 you use one hole to attach it and it works correctly.  When you use it on the 300 you use a different hole to attach it and it works correctly.  If you use the wrong hole it doesn't work properly and you get poor out of square cuts and bent blades.  But it is the identical part on both units...just attached differently for a different effect on two similar saws.  

It's just a possibility which could explain the same part getting a different effect on two different sanders.  Also the manual online may be incorrect for some reason.  I really don't know the answer.  You could very possibly be correct and they are identical and interchangeable in every way.  I'm just not totally convinced since I was told different by Festool in Indiana at their headquarters.  And I wasn't talking with a sales staff...  but he wasn't an engineer either.   We'll see what they have to say when they call me back.  I will also ask them if it voids the warranty for sure or not.  Shane is being awfully quiet on this one eh?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 07:37 PM by wnagle »
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline Guy Ashley

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2010, 03:15 PM »
I heard from a Festool rep a couple weeks ago that the two are becoming one machine with interchangeable pads...which makes a lot of sense.  I guess we will see if it comes true or not...

Best,
Todd

Forrest

The above quote is what I picked up on. I haven't attributed anything to you.

Regards

Guy
DIPLOMACY:

"The art of being able to tell someone to go to Hades in such a way that they positively look forward to the journey"

Offline Forrest Anderson

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2010, 03:18 PM »
I heard from a Festool rep a couple weeks ago that the two are becoming one machine with interchangeable pads...which makes a lot of sense.  I guess we will see if it comes true or not...

The above quote is what I picked up on. I haven't attributed anything to you.

Thanks for the link! I'd forgotten about that post from last year, and hope that it's true! I'll keep my eyes open for any news about it...

Forrest

Compiler of the Consolidated List of Festool Links - the place to go for Festool reviews, manuals, brochures and videos!

Offline harry_

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2010, 01:30 PM »
Well it is possible that Festool told me that just keep my grubby little fingers out of the insieds of the sander for my own protection. 

Or,....... nothing to do with fingers & sanders and more to do with fingers & wallets? [2cents] [popcorn]
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline wow

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2014, 09:32 PM »
Brought this back from the dead because there seem to be fairly frequent "should I buy a DTS400 or RTS400" posts. Any chance they will soon become one sander with multiple bases, which would seem infinitely wise for some of us?

No, I wouldn't mind owning a second sander or systainer, but if they aren't going to be merged as a single model why not offer them as a set?
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline jbasen

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2014, 11:38 AM »
This has been a very timely discussion for me.  I own an ETS 150/5 and an RTS 400.  I was considering purchasing a delta pad sander and was about to ask the question whether people would recommend a DTS 400 or whether it was worth the extra money (given the sanders I own) to purchase an RO 90.   Given the above discussion, now there are more options.

I'm not sure I feel like tearing apart my DTS 400 as I just bought it a few months ago and the warranty would be out the window.  I'm wondering if I should sell it while it has a lot of value and hope for a combo RTS/DTS model.  Or, wondering if the combined RTS/DTS model will use the base unit of the existing sander simply adding an extra interface layer to make the pads interchangeable.  If that is true then I'm wondering if this interface could be retrofit onto an existing RTS 400.   If that were the case it might be worth tearing the sander apart to essentially upgrade it to a new model.

Jay




Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2014, 12:31 PM »
I wouldn't put on hold any plans for a sander to wait for a combo or retrofit DTS/ RTS sander.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline w802h

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2014, 05:29 PM »
When I was considering my initial purchase, I swapped out the pads between the two models at my dealer and they fit... that said I live life on the straight and narrow so I bought the RTS.  If memory serves, the ETS fits too.  I thought the RTS shape was more useful for my needs and it felt like I'd be able to keep it flatter where I might bear on the point of the DTS or roll the edge of a round pad.  I considered buying a different pad without the dealer/festool endorsement, but I didn't want to stock two different profile papers for very similar machines.  If push comes to shove I've got a Multimaster for my delta needs - although I don't like it for sanding and rarely use it. 

Offline jbasen

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2014, 05:48 PM »
Thanks.  So given I have an ETS 150/5 and the RTS 400, is there something the RO 90 is going to offer me that justifies the higher cost compared to the DTS 400?  If I didn't have the ETS 150/5 it would be a no brainier and I would get the RO 90.  Given I have the ETS 150/5 I'm just not sure what the other features of the RO 90 are going to offer me other than the opportunity to buy even more sandpaper  [smile]

Thanks.

Jay

Offline Scott Burt

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2014, 06:30 PM »
Thanks.  So given I have an ETS 150/5 and the RTS 400, is there something the RO 90 is going to offer me that justifies the higher cost compared to the DTS 400?  If I didn't have the ETS 150/5 it would be a no brainier and I would get the RO 90.  Given I have the ETS 150/5 I'm just not sure what the other features of the RO 90 are going to offer me other than the opportunity to buy even more sandpaper  [smile]

Thanks.

Jay

Depends entirely upon what you do for work. Not all delta are created equal or for the same purpose, in my opinion. The DTS is a great and well balanced orbital that happens to have 3 points, nice curves and a beautiful beveled edge all of which ideally suit it for fine work. Cabinet grade sanding, drywall patch sanding etc. The 90 in delta (to me) is a low grit crevice tool. It will rarely find its way into cabinet corners or patched corners with me. Flip side, the DTS will rarely find its way into low grit crevice sanding for me.

The stroke of the tool is often the best indicator of its best uses.

Offline Alex

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2014, 06:39 PM »
Thanks.  So given I have an ETS 150/5 and the RTS 400, is there something the RO 90 is going to offer me that justifies the higher cost compared to the DTS 400?  If I didn't have the ETS 150/5 it would be a no brainier and I would get the RO 90.  Given I have the ETS 150/5 I'm just not sure what the other features of the RO 90 are going to offer me other than the opportunity to buy even more sandpaper  [smile]

You talk sort of casual about how the 3 sanders you mention are almost identical, but that certainly isn't the case. All 3 sanders are very different and have their own strengths.

Especially the DTS400 and the RO90 are very different sanders, the DTS is a very gentle sander for the finer finish work while the RO 90 is a very powerfull sander, like all Rotex sanders, and is best used for fast material removal.

So in short, the RO 90 is going to offer you a lot the DTS won't offer you, but the other way around is also true. You should not compare them on the simple fact they both have a pad with a pointy shape.  

I have both sanders and I do a lot of paint work on houses. The DTS400 is my most used sander, because it works best for preparing the surface for paint work. The RO 90 is also used often, but more for stripping bad spots down to wood. On larger areas I break out the RO 150 or the RAS 115 for that. But the DTS does most of the work because it leaves the best surface for finish work. The RO 90 is not so suited for finish work, it's very agressive and the pad is too small, so it's easy to make dimples if you don't watch out.

Offline jbasen

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2014, 07:13 PM »
Thanks Alex and Scott.  That was exactly the kind of detailed info I was looking for.  I am a hobbyist building Craftsman furniture so it sounds like the DTS 400 makes much more sense.  In delta sanding mode it wasn't clear to me that there was still a significant power difference between the 2 sanders.

Thanks again for your help

Jay

Offline Scott Burt

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2014, 07:31 PM »
Thanks Alex and Scott.  That was exactly the kind of detailed info I was looking for.  I am a hobbyist building Craftsman furniture so it sounds like the DTS 400 makes much more sense.  In delta sanding mode it wasn't clear to me that there was still a significant power difference between the 2 sanders.

Thanks again for your help

Jay

You're welcome. In that type of work, the DTS will be the more useful sander. Design and balance are much better. As well, the dust extraction will be superior.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2017, 12:02 PM »
Bumping an old thread here, wondering if anyone has figured out how to do the same with the new RTS/DTS 400 REQ models.
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