Author Topic: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?  (Read 2397 times)

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Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 40
Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« on: February 04, 2019, 11:37 PM »
Does anyone know if it's possible to use festool 18V batteries with DeWalt 18V tools (with an adaptor of course)? I need an impact driver and like the looks of the soon-to-be-released DeWalt DCW600N 18V trim router, but I'm reluctant to have yet another battery system cluttering up the place.

There are plenty of adaptors out there for other tool/battery combos, but I haven't found anything for Festool.

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Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 817
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 02:37 AM »
not sure about this. Many battery packs are more than just a pack of batteries. There is a fair bit of control going on in many of them. I understand the reluctance of yet one more ecosystem. Each one is like a money vampire..... intentionally.

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 40
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2019, 04:49 AM »
Just found the Makita/festool thread - similar no goes there. I guess companies have a vested interest in making sure there’s no cross-compatibility.

Wouldn’t mind so much if festool did a decent impact driver and cordless router.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 807
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2019, 07:44 AM »
There is an adapter for most brands, Milwaukee, Dewalt, Ridgid, Ryobi etc.. But I never saw any with Festool.

I doubt there is something like that on the shelf but you never know. You might be lucky finding something like this one. Custom 3D printing.


I believe your best bet is to find someone on Etsy willing to do an adapter for the two brands you want.

Good luck!
Mario

Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 151
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 09:12 AM »
Build a charging center to organize them. Up to a year ago, I had two battery/charger types, DeWalt and Ryobi, I retired all the Ryobi stuff, but in the meantime I added some new. Now I have 2 Festool, 2 Bosch, and still have the DeWalt.

While adapting is theoretically possible, and does work in limited cases, some manufacturers put the battery control circuitry in the tool, while others put it in the battery pack, and no  doubt, some others do something in-between. They don't document any of that, so mixing successfully requires a lot of tearing things apart, and a lot of knowledge of what all the stuff you uncover is. Otherwise there is a lot of risk of blowing up the batteries. Given the cost of my Festool stuff, I'm not inclined to experiment with it. DeWalt does have a lot compatibility within their family, some of the chargers can accept both their 12 volt and their 20 volt packs, the 60 v packs shown in the video clip can be used on 20v tools and the chargers take both (60 and 20) batteries.


Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 737
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2019, 09:25 AM »
Mafell and several other European companies have decided to help solve the battery issue by coming together to share a battery platform. It's a good idea that will save consumers some money and be able to buy the best tool for the job without having to buy different batteries and chargers.

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 40
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2019, 06:07 PM »
I have a 3D printer and reasonable electronics knowledge, so it's really a question of whether anyone has a decent knowledge of the battery/tool internals that would help in putting something together.

My festool batteries are too new to consider pulling apart to investigate at the mo, so I guess it's charging station time.

Online Peter Halle

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  • Posts: 11785
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2019, 06:24 PM »
Just to get in front of these discussions before they go too far.  Obviously any sort of adaption of a Festool battery for use on another tool for which it was not originally designed to work on will not have images or instructions on how to do so hosted on this forum.  Same thing goes the reverse way (other brand battery on Festool tool.)

Just a heads up.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 332
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 03:16 AM »
Mafell and several other European companies have decided to help solve the battery issue by coming together to share a battery platform. It's a good idea that will save consumers some money and be able to buy the best tool for the job without having to buy different batteries and chargers.

......IF the Cordless Alliance participants actually produced competing tools, thereby offering genuine alternatives.  They don't.  Just complementary tooling, not competitive.  Sound marketing sense from all, I suggest.

Why not just ditch all your Festo/ol cordless tool range?  There's just so much better performance, quality, range, longevity & value out there nowadays.  I personally cannot think of any single cordless Festo/ol that's still relevant to my own needs.  Maybe the cordless saw, as the mains version is a bit gutless in comparison.  But still, there's those excellent Mafell, Makita & DeWalt (et al) cordless track & X-cut saws, SCMS etc. etc. etc.

It's just so easy these days to use a superior quality single-source cordless setup, often in a range of operating voltages whilst still using similar battery & charging technologies.  Honestly, why do you still persevere?
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 155
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 11:46 AM »
Mafell and several other European companies have decided to help solve the battery issue by coming together to share a battery platform.
It's actually Metabo's idea - and the other members of this group, including Mafell, are either customers of Metabo's cordless kit and batteries, or associate companies who sell kit to Metabo, like Starmix. So not quite as "Open Source" as you'd first think, especially as there are no plans at this point in time to bring Hitachi/Hikoki/Metabo HPT (or whatever they are calling themselves this week) into the fold any time soon

That said, I'd love it if we could get down to one or two standards in the market - like they've managed to do with cameras. Oh, hold on, now.......
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 11:50 AM by Job and Knock »
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker maxim

TS 55 - TS75 - Kapex KS120 - OF1010 - OF2200 - Rotex RO150e - Domino DF500Q -  Domino DF700XL

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 401
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 03:42 PM »
Lithium Ion Batteries are not like old AAAs.  Just because the listed voltage matches, it doesn't mean the are in anyway interchangeable. Cells are matched to the battery/tool/charger/etc.   A cell that can't handle the C rate of a different charger will either die soon, or fireball.   Lithium Ion isn't one thing, it's 100-1000s of chemistry all that behave differently.  This is a major part of why they have the electronics they do. You need a BMS (battery management system) and it has to be for that battery/cell/system.

Just because someone rigged something up and it "worked" doesn't mean it will keep working or other variations of what they did will work.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1458
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 03:56 PM »
Lithium Ion Batteries are not like old AAAs.  Just because the listed voltage matches, it doesn't mean the are in anyway interchangeable. Cells are matched to the battery/tool/charger/etc.   A cell that can't handle the C rate of a different charger will either die soon, or fireball.   Lithium Ion isn't one thing, it's 100-1000s of chemistry all that behave differently.  This is a major part of why they have the electronics they do. You need a BMS (battery management system) and it has to be for that battery/cell/system.

Just because someone rigged something up and it "worked" doesn't mean it will keep working or other variations of what they did will work.

This is exactly what's puzzling me about this topic.  We've seen the news articles about hoverboards, phones, laptops and e-cigarettes.  I'm not paranoid, but lithium batteries can get dangerous.  I have no problem leaving my Milwaukee or Festool battery in it's respective tool or charger unattended.  But mixing and matching batteries and tools/chargers without knowing what the electronics are (or should be) doing and hoping it will all be okay just seems crazy. 
-Raj

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 848
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 05:42 PM »
It's really not paranoia Raj. You're spot on.  [thumbs up]

Cargo planes have crashed, cargo planes performed emergency landings because of "funky stuff" happening with LiIon batteries/cells on board.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_991

And rumors: https://fighterjetsworld.com/2018/11/13/lithium-ion-batteries-might-caused-mh370-crash/

A long time ago, long before those crashes, someone I briefly knew posted pictures of the aftermath when a lithium ion battery had exploded in his kitchen while charging. Parts even hit his feet. Got a nasty infection on those wounds ... A steel can/filter of a coffee machine looked like someone had hit it with a hammer ...

This really is no joke and lithium ion batteries are nothing to play/experiment with in my humble opinion.

The $$($$) saved on some batteries or tools, is simply not worth loosing life, limb or $$$$($$) material possessions. And God beware, something happening to someone else while using/charging/storing self made or tampered with batteries.

On another Note, Bosch's new 18V 12Ah ProCore exceeds limits of what can be shipped regularly. Needs at least special (professional) packaging and not every carrier allows it.

(English)

https://www.ups.com/media/news/en/lithium_batteries_instruction_guide.pdf

(German)

https://www.zvei.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Verband/Fachverbaende/Elektrowerkzeuge/Neue_Merkblaetter_zum_Transport_von_Lithium-Ionen-Batterien/Versand-von-Lithium-Ionen-Batterien-2018-ZVEI.pdf

(English)

https://www.zvei.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Presse_und_Medien/Publikationen/2018/April/Versand_von_Lithium-Ionen-Batterien/Shipping-of-Lithium-Ion-Batteries-2018-ZVEI.pdf


Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 05:54 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 40
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2019, 12:42 AM »
DeWalt have been very clever at getting around the battery transport limits - their '18/54V flexvolt' (US 20/60V). You may not ship these little bombs if they pack >100Watt-hours. The 6.0AH flexvolts have 120Wh - so the Dewalt batteries have a travel clip that physically changes the wiring and turns them into 3 cells of 40Wh each. And bingo, batteries may fly.

WRT to comments on how dangerous these things are - they are batteries. They pack a fair amount of power, which is why things are unpleasant if they are mistreated. However, they simply have specific requirements for charging and discharging, and are perfectly safe if you meet these requirements. The circuitry and specifications are easily, freely, and readily available. If you don't understand them, and do not have the know-how to implement these specifications, then don't mess with them. But don't try to constrain the rest of the world to your own limits.
I've been building battery packs with 18650 cells -mainly for my megawatt bike lights - with balancing and protection circuits for years, and am Still Not Dead.

The complexity with these modern tools is how, and where, they are implementing the tool and battery protections. Some are in the battery itself, some in the tools, and some seem to have both. I think the safest way would probably be to have the original circuitry from both manufacturer's batteries in the adaptor, with a physical switch to switch the cells' output between each system. Which for me, falls into the 'too hard' basket. Just not worth the effort with current prices.

I popped into my local tool store, where I have made friends with the boss. After I reassured him that I did not have early-onset dementia and that I did in fact intend to be standing in front of the Yellow and Black display, as opposed to the Green and Black, he disappeared in a puff of smoke (not battery-induced), rummaged around and came up with ex-promo pack which had the DW impact driver, hammer drill, charger, and dirty great 6AH battery, all for a whole lot less than the current cost of the impact driver alone. So I now have a 3rd battery system on the bench (DW 12 and 18V, and Fe$tool 18V)

I played around with my T18 and the DCD796 while milling my workbench yesterday. The T18 feels more refined, is more comfortable to use, and the centrotech ability to quickly attach and detach the forstner bit in the Parf jig made the job a lot quicker and easier. However, I preferred the DeWalt for drilling the guide holes for the jig - it just felt more powerful, and I think spins a bit quicker (will have to check the specs sometime). The DW is heavy and a little unbalanced with the big 6AH bat, so I'll get a 5AH and see how it feels with that. *sigh*... more batteries  [blink] [unsure] [big grin]

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 848
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2019, 04:13 AM »
If you know what you're doing, I'm not taking any issue with it.

However many (probably most) don't. And I think it's important to outline the risk.


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Ptk16

  • Posts: 41
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 06:25 AM »
I would not want to try this, even though I have electronics experience. As others stated there is just too much going on in the batteries and the tools. Not worth the expense of it goes wrong. The dewalt platform is really affordable anyway. I would much rather just kill a dewalt battery...

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 901
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 08:14 AM »
Don't know what everyone else does but I usually trash any battery that is supplied with a TV remote or similar device.

I don't trust those cheap batteries and you don't know how old they are or what conditions (heat/cold) they have been exposed to that could affect performance or cause leakage.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1458
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 10:25 AM »
The complexity with these modern tools is how, and where, they are implementing the tool and battery protections. Some are in the battery itself, some in the tools, and some seem to have both. I think the safest way would probably be to have the original circuitry from both manufacturer's batteries in the adaptor, with a physical switch to switch the cells' output between each system. Which for me, falls into the 'too hard' basket. Just not worth the effort with current prices.

Googling battery specs, temperature limits, charge and discharge thresholds and rates is the easy part.  You can safely assume that the cells used as OEM's from a quality tool manufacturer have an extremely low failure rate, so that's a non issue.  Where we venture into the fog is the electronics built into the battery, the tool and whether there is any form of communication or dependency between the two.  If the battery and tool with their respective electronics each operate as an independent unit, adapting batteries to tools seems relatively safe.  If they communicate in any way, that's a problem.  If the battery hasn't been programmed to stay within the cell manufacturers limits, but the tool manufacturer build their tools so they would never exceed the cell limits, that dependency could also pose a problem if you're moving batteries across tool brands.  It's these unknowns that raise concerns for me.  Where am I going to get reliable information on the logic buried in the battery and tool so I can safely go about adapting batteries to tools?  "A guy on the internet" just isn't sufficient given the ramifications.  And I wouldn't expect a tool manufacturer to offer up the information. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 10:28 AM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 401
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2019, 10:50 PM »
Yeah, there isn't anything that dangerous about Lithium Ion cells.  And not compared to other things we know (cans of gasoline).  And yes you can build battery packs, that too isn't an issue.

The problem is if tool company A designs their battery system around say 3C discharge rate.  You then attach a battery from company B who designed around a 2.5C discharge rate.  Now you might get lucky and the cells in both systems can do 4C and the OEM uses them because they are high volume cells or are trying to increase cycle life on the batteries.  But if company B actually used a 2.C rate cell, and you go pulling  3C now you have an issue.

Or maybe one system used cells that were better out going to a lower discharge, say it took them down to 15% SOC.  Others might only use cells that go down to 20% before they have degrading issues.   Cut off voltages can be different.  Peak cell voltages can vary a lot, they arn't all 3.6V per cell.  If you use a brand of charger that expects 3.7volt cells and you then connect to one with 3.6V cells you can then over voltage the cells, now you got a fireball.

Lithium Ion is safe, but it has to be kept into spec and within the limits of the system a manufacture designed too.  Cracking open a brands battery, finding PN for the cells looking up the specs and replacing them with ones that match or exceed is fine.  But that's a lot different than mating 2 different brands together.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 127
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2019, 04:34 AM »
Obviously all down to opinions etc but, personally I wouldn’t use batteries on a cross platform, unless the batteries and/or adapters, were designed and backed up by the relevant manufacturers.
The majority of my power tools are top end from their respective brand, and they are used in a professional capacity, so not worth the risk to me. We buy our batteries in bulk, from 4 to 12 at a time, and get the relevant discount.
I understand that for some, cost is a factor but, where is the sense in buying tools that cost hundreds or thousands of pounds/dollars and euros, only to scrimp on batteries?

I think of batteries in the same context as the tools themselves, one is of no use without the other.
Best practice is, get a quote and gulp, sigh or even swear quietly, then buy them. Same goes for chargers, drill bits, sanding pads, blades, biscuits, Dominos, screws, nails and glue. It’s part of the big picture.
In my case, it helps keep the tax bills lower but, even for a part timer or hobbyist, this stuff is needed if the tools are being used properly.

I am looking for a certain adaptor, that turns £10 notes into £50 notes!  [tongue]

Offline DashZero

  • Posts: 35
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2019, 02:53 AM »
Because we are conditioned to think that “saving money” is better than saving time.  If you can buy the tool and pay for it with the job and have money left over, it doesn’t matter.  You didn’t buy it,  the job bought it for you. 

Obviously all down to opinions etc but, personally I wouldn’t use batteries on a cross platform, unless the batteries and/or adapters, were designed and backed up by the relevant manufacturers.
The majority of my power tools are top end from their respective brand, and they are used in a professional capacity, so not worth the risk to me. We buy our batteries in bulk, from 4 to 12 at a time, and get the relevant discount.
I understand that for some, cost is a factor but, where is the sense in buying tools that cost hundreds or thousands of pounds/dollars and euros, only to scrimp on batteries?

I think of batteries in the same context as the tools themselves, one is of no use without the other.
Best practice is, get a quote and gulp, sigh or even swear quietly, then buy them. Same goes for chargers, drill bits, sanding pads, blades, biscuits, Dominos, screws, nails and glue. It’s part of the big picture.
In my case, it helps keep the tax bills lower but, even for a part timer or hobbyist, this stuff is needed if the tools are being used properly.

I am looking for a certain adaptor, that turns £10 notes into £50 notes!  [tongue]

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 127
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2019, 05:42 PM »
If the job bought the tools, then it needs to buy the batteries too.  ;)

Offline DashZero

  • Posts: 35
Re: Festool/DeWalt battery adaptors?
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2019, 04:06 AM »
A battery adaptor reminds me of rims and tires sticking out from the side of a car with an adaptor hub. A waste time to save money.  And time is more valuable.