Author Topic: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation  (Read 34443 times)

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Offline Richard/RMW

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FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« on: July 23, 2015, 05:28 PM »
Been fiddling with my latest gadget, a heavy duty t-square attachment for a FS guide rail. It's made of 1/4" 6061 aluminum, cut on a water jet (I think) and the 90 degree leg is 450mm (~16"). It should have the same level of accuracy as the large (450/600MM) woodpecker's square.

226066-0

226068-1

226070-2

226072-3

226074-4

226076-5

There is a tad of adjustment where the 2 pieces screw together, ~0.1mm. Attaches to the rail with the guide clips from my Rip Dogs over the little black posts so it installs/removes in seconds. The guide clips angled geometry pulls the rail into the edge so it should always be @ 90 degrees.

The edges are a bit rougher than I would like due to how they were cut but that is just cosmetic I guess.

226078-6

It's a pretty good chunk of aluminum so it should take a beating. I'm interested in any feedback anyone may have.

Thanks, 

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

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Offline Gwerner

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2015, 05:51 PM »
I like it. Since I don't already have a T-Square for my rails I'd be onboard to buy one of these.

Offline ScotF

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2015, 06:01 PM »
Looks great. I think that having some adjustment for 90 degrees is key. How much does it way? Are you able to add an auxiliary fence to it?

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2015, 06:30 PM »
Looks great. I think that having some adjustment for 90 degrees is key. How much does it way? Are you able to add an auxiliary fence to it?
@ScotF

So happens I have a postal scale handy, 2.5#.

The adjustment is minimal, since the edges touching the guide rail are designed to be 90 degrees from the line of holes, I made the upper holes 8.2mm for an 8mm cap screw.

By auxiliary fence are you thinking about something like a t-track/scale to set up repeatable cuts? If so, I guess it is possible but not readily apparent to me how at this point.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline whitesys

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2015, 08:56 PM »
I like it and would be interested.

Online Peter Halle

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2015, 09:19 PM »
Are you intending to make these for sale?

Peter

Offline Jozsef Kozma

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2015, 09:27 PM »
I would be interested
I can see this improving accuracy and speed things up

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2015, 09:56 PM »
Are you intending to make these for sale?

Peter

@Peter Halle - right now I'm just fiddling around with it. Need to see if it works as expected, and was looking for feedback on the idea.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline ScotF

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2015, 11:02 PM »
Looks great. I think that having some adjustment for 90 degrees is key. How much does it way? Are you able to add an auxiliary fence to it?
@ScotF

So happens I have a postal scale handy, 2.5#.

The adjustment is minimal, since the edges touching the guide rail are designed to be 90 degrees from the line of holes, I made the upper holes 8.2mm for an 8mm cap screw.

By auxiliary fence are you thinking about something like a t-track/scale to set up repeatable cuts? If so, I guess it is possible but not readily apparent to me how at this point.

RMW

Exactly. This would make lots of cuts faster right at the pile vs. Marking each one. Also, a longer arm would in theory help make it more accurate on wider cross-cuts.

Offline Sal LiVecchi

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2015, 11:15 PM »
Rich   As always count me in
Life is too short and the road is too long to drive anything less than a Festool

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2015, 12:12 AM »
Ill field test it for you Richard! I'll be down at the cove on Saturday your welcome to let me have one free of charge  [big grin]

Offline fshanno

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2015, 01:58 AM »
That sir, is a fine piece of work. 

But I'm not interested in any solution that includes attaching a Festool guide to a t-square.

I'd like to see a one piece, 1/4" thick aluminum t-square that a track saw can ride on.  It needs to provide a 48" crosscut, a full sheet.   Screw a rectangular bar on top that the channel in the saw bottom rides on. 

In this application the friction tape on the bottom of the guide is not only useless, it is counter productive.  No kind of square has friction tape on the bottom, that's just stupid.  The t-square needs to float as effortlessly as possible while sitting flat on the top of the plywood.  Nothing fights against registration against the reference edge.  You can effortlessly slide the the t-square up to your mark while it's lying flat on the workpiece. 

Just rabbet the bottom of the edge of the T so that the standard Festool anti-chipout strip can be attached.

The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline fshanno

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2015, 02:10 AM »
And then one more thing would make it the wonder of Planet Earth.

Some sort of stop.  That way we wouldn't have to fiddle with making a mark with sliding the t-square up to the mark.  And fudging because our anti-chipout strip is worn out.  We'd be crosscutting like a sliding table saw.

That would make your t-square the most important aftermarket product in the history of Festool.
The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline DrD

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2015, 02:55 AM »
I would definitely be on board with your creation so long as they are not priced like the OTTs and anodized red.
KS12 EB Kapex with Delta Folding Table & FastCap Best Fence; TS75 EQ with Parallel Guide Rail Set (FS-PA 495717 & FS-PA-VL 495718) and FS 800/2, 1080/2, 1400/2 LR32, 1400/2, 1900/2 Guide Rails, and Betterly SLC23 Straight Line Connector; DF500 Q with Assortment Systainer; OF1010 EQ with Fine Adjuster for Guide Stop, WA-OF Angle Arm, UP-OF Edging Plate and SF-OF Chip Deflector (486242); OF1400 EQ with OF1400 Dust Hood x 2, OF 1400  Edge Guide x 2, OF 1400  Guide Stop; LR32 Set; PSB399 EQ; EHL65 E; RAS115.04 E; RS2 E; ETS150/3 EQ; RO150 FEQ; Hand Sanding Block Set; CT26 with assortment of AS and Non-AS Hoses; MFT/3 Table x2; SysLite; Assortment of Quick & Screw Clamps, Consumables, Dogs.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2015, 06:49 AM »
That sir, is a fine piece of work. 

But I'm not interested in any solution that includes attaching a Festool guide to a t-square.

I'd like to see a one piece, 1/4" thick aluminum t-square that a track saw can ride on.  It needs to provide a 48" crosscut, a full sheet.   Screw a rectangular bar on top that the channel in the saw bottom rides on. 

In this application the friction tape on the bottom of the guide is not only useless, it is counter productive.  No kind of square has friction tape on the bottom, that's just stupid.  The t-square needs to float as effortlessly as possible while sitting flat on the top of the plywood.  Nothing fights against registration against the reference edge.  You can effortlessly slide the the t-square up to your mark while it's lying flat on the workpiece. 

Just rabbet the bottom of the edge of the T so that the standard Festool anti-chipout strip can be attached.

@fshanno - totally agree that would be a superior setup. Not sure it is doable in the real world however, in my limited experience once you get past 16-18" it is very costly to have produced (like Festool costly times Woodpecker costly plus BCTW costly) and perhaps not even possible. Hence the need to incorporate the guide rail into the design.

I would love to be educated on this further by one of our brethren with more experience @ custom machining/production work - @greg mann ...

I also wonder if the non-stick approach would backfire and move while cutting?

Thanks,

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2015, 06:57 AM »
Ill field test it for you Richard! I'll be down at the cove on Saturday your welcome to let me have one free of charge  [big grin]

@rizzoa13 - weather has been incredible this week, warm but not hot and no humidity. Doubtless the cove will be mobbed.

I have a date with some countertops that are begging to be installed. Drop me a line if you have time and perhaps we can share a libation.

RMW

As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2015, 08:28 AM »
Looks great. I think that having some adjustment for 90 degrees is key. How much does it way? Are you able to add an auxiliary fence to it?
@ScotF

So happens I have a postal scale handy, 2.5#.

The adjustment is minimal, since the edges touching the guide rail are designed to be 90 degrees from the line of holes, I made the upper holes 8.2mm for an 8mm cap screw.

By auxiliary fence are you thinking about something like a t-track/scale to set up repeatable cuts? If so, I guess it is possible but not readily apparent to me how at this point.

RMW

Exactly. This would make lots of cuts faster right at the pile vs. Marking each one. Also, a longer arm would in theory help make it more accurate on wider cross-cuts.

@ScotF turns out that would not be too tough. My first try at this was made of 2 pieces of 1/4" by 2" aluminum that I just drilled and tapped, I added a t-track plus to give it a scale:

226128-0

226130-1

It worked okay, problem was it did not take much of a whack to knock it out of square so I was forever checking it before each use.

Wouldn't be too hard to add a piece of TT+ to this one either:

226132-2

226134-3

226136-4

I'll play around with it over the weekend & report back.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline fshanno

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2015, 10:33 AM »

@fshanno - totally agree that would be a superior setup. Not sure it is doable in the real world however, in my limited experience once you get past 16-18" it is very costly to have produced (like Festool costly times Woodpecker costly plus BCTW costly) and perhaps not even possible. Hence the need to incorporate the guide rail into the design.

I would love to be educated on this further by one of our brethren with more experience @ custom machining/production work - @greg mann ...

I also wonder if the non-stick approach would backfire and move while cutting?

Thanks,

RMW

I've seen ordinary alloy plate 24 x 48 x .25 for around $175 at online sites.   So I figured larger plate was available wholesale. 

Movement while cutting would be a concern wouldn't it?  One hand would have to stay on the t-square.  Maybe a handle of some sort could be rigged. 

Why don't I build a prototype out of plywood?  If I think it's so super duper great.
The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2015, 11:25 AM »

@fshanno - totally agree that would be a superior setup. Not sure it is doable in the real world however, in my limited experience once you get past 16-18" it is very costly to have produced (like Festool costly times Woodpecker costly plus BCTW costly) and perhaps not even possible. Hence the need to incorporate the guide rail into the design.

I would love to be educated on this further by one of our brethren with more experience @ custom machining/production work - @greg mann ...

I also wonder if the non-stick approach would backfire and move while cutting?

Thanks,

RMW

I've seen ordinary alloy plate 24 x 48 x .25 for around $175 at online sites.   So I figured larger plate was available wholesale. 

Movement while cutting would be a concern wouldn't it?  One hand would have to stay on the t-square.  Maybe a handle of some sort could be rigged. 

Why don't I build a prototype out of plywood?  If I think it's so super duper great.

I don't disagree with you that the concept is awesome super duper great, I would sign up for a one-piece cross-cutting guide if it were available. 

In my (again) unprofessional understanding, the issue is not so much the size of the stock as the availability of a machine capable of precision milling 48"+. Actually, my 55" rails are too darned short to properly cross-cut 48" stock, so the final "perfect" rail would need to be around 60".

I also found on these guides that the stock is not perfectly flat, which I assume is due to the imperfection of 1/4" sheet material.

I am pretty sure from Woodpecker's video ads for the OTT square that they machine them from larger blanks of plate, milling down to a final /14" thickness, which is how they achieve the high precision.

You should make one up to see how it works out, to cut cost and make is easier to work with you might consider using one of the aluminum clad plastic panels. You can work that stuff pretty easily with a standard router bit, & it would save some weight. I would love to see how it turns out.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline rvieceli

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2015, 12:33 PM »
You might want to take a look at MIC6 cast aluminum plate. High tolerances for thickness and flatness even in 1/4 inch. Alcoa says +/- .005 on thickness and within .015 on flatness. Better for thicker stock.

The only problem is that it isn't cheap.

https://www.alcoa.com/industrial/en/products/product.asp?market_cat_id=534&prod_id=619

If you can find a place that uses it in a process, you should be able to get drops cheaper.

Offline greg mann

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2015, 09:09 PM »
When I want to use a crosscut guide I just use one parallel guide attached to a rail. I was told by Sedge they weren't meant to be used that way but it works. I tested it for accuracy on a 30 inch door by cutting one long edge with a long rail and then used that edge for reference to cut the ends. I cut one end, flipped the door end for end, and cut the other end, thereby doubling any error. Thing is, there isn't a measurable error ove the 30 inch distance. I can discern about .005 when an edge lines up with a line on a tape and I just can't see any difference at each end of the cut. That's good enough for me and I find it quite easy to use. I don't believe I could machine anything significantly better so this will be my technique for now.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2015, 09:41 AM »
Why not do a knockdown triangle? Slots and knobs in and on profiles — you’d be able to have stops for the basic angles a woodworker needs, etcetera. And a knockdown would be easily transported.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Online Cheese

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2015, 12:01 PM »
I've used MIC 6 for several projects, but luckily I could always pruchase drops so that I didn't have to pay virgin material price.

A 4' x 8' sheet of 1/4" 6061 runs about $350 while the same size MIC 6 will cost around $625.

 [scratch chin] I wonder if Woodpeckers uses MIC 6 because of its dimensional stability, in their OTT large framing squares? Could explain the reason why they are so spendy.

Offline rvieceli

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2015, 01:06 PM »
This Alca 5 stuff is supposed to have similar properties but annodize better than MIC 6. Maybe they use it.

http://www.howardprecision.com/aluminum/aluminum-cast-tool-jig-plate-stock-list/alca-5

Online Cheese

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2015, 01:40 PM »
@rvieceli
That's interesting [big grin], never heard of that stuff before, but it could be the ticket. Thanks...

I did notice that the anodizing on the 26 x 16 (2012) square is rather blotchy compared to the 18 x 12 (2015). Maybe MIC 6 on early products and ALCA 5 on later products? The anodization is perfect on all of the other Woodpecker products I own.

Who knows  [unsure] and Woodpeckers sure won't say anything. Just wondering...

226280-0

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2015, 02:22 PM »
@rvieceli
That's interesting [big grin], never heard of that stuff before, but it could be the ticket. Thanks...

I did notice that the anodizing on the 26 x 16 (2012) square is rather blotchy compared to the 18 x 12 (2015). Maybe MIC 6 on early products and ALCA 5 on later products? The anodization is perfect on all of the other Woodpecker products I own.

Who knows  [unsure] and Woodpeckers sure won't say anything. Just wondering...

(Attachment Link)

@Cheese is that a optical illusion or is the scale slightly off between the 2 rules? Looks like 5.5"/7" are dead on but they start to diverge around 1"-1.5" either direction.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2015, 02:49 PM »
@Richard/RMW
No that's just parallax rearing it's ugly head, they're both spot on. The only other scales I've come to expect that same level of consistency/accuracy with is Starrett. I've compared a new Starrett scale with one manufactured 40 years ago and they were both spot on. They got it down... [big grin]

Offline Matthewajones

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2015, 08:16 PM »
What about a qwas square? Or am I missing something?

Offline crazydave789

  • Posts: 62
Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2015, 08:38 PM »
just ordered the triton square for their guide rails, they also do an adjustable one at considerably less than festool. should be here in a few days so I'll give it a test.

Offline Biffsbench

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Re: FS Guide Rail T-Square - latest creation
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2015, 02:45 PM »
Richard/RMW if you ever make these for Sale I would buy one.
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