Author Topic: MFT / 3 Precision Saw & Router Fence with INCRA Incremental Positioning System  (Read 34104 times)

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Offline Festoller

  • Posts: 234
First of all I would like to thank all the members who helped build this system! The complete "evolution" can be found in this post:

Development of the MFT Precision Saw & Router Fence

but since the post got pretty long here's the result and a short summary.

I decided to get the 25" INCRA LS Positioner Incremental Positioning System (INCRA #LS25SYS), because with my setup you have almost 80 mm of workpiece lenght. With slight adjustments (putting the Festool Rail on the other side you could gain the width of the Guide Rail). If you have two MFTs connected the width increases acordingly! You don't need to even think about the INCRA Saw Fence, the LS25SYS is 100% square and rigid, even at full lenght

Here's the final setup with the Kapex Crown Molding Extension as support and two bench dogs.If you spend a little effort on squaring the base with the Positioner it's dead on square to the MFT grid and can easily be switched from one side to the other!

Saw Fence with almost 80 mm cut width:



Kapex Crown Molding as support (bolted with the LS base)



Adjustable bench dog (from Ebay US)



I've already built a router table to fit the MFT hight as an extension, but now it's the perfect match for the LS. The feet are adjustable and if your floor isn't 100 % I'd recommend to do the same. Takes only a minute to level with the MFT Surface. It's pretty rigid that way, but I am still working on a simple solution for connecting the router table and the MFT other than using a clamp.

Here it's connected to the left side:




And here to the front, but the beauty is you can put it on all 4 sides:




When not in use and since there's no fence in the way the router table can be used for the Kapex and the KA-UG extension can rest on the MFT and be 100% level.



I don't know if the Festool MFT Extension and the CMS Module would top this setup, but if I would exchange my top to the INCRA router table top with lift, it would probaly be pretty precise. Of course the Festool routers don't fit the Woodpecker or INCRA lifts, but maybe it's even better to use a different model for under the table anyway. For now I'am fine with adjusting the router hight by hand and the price for both the Festool Lift or INCRA/Woodpecker seems to high.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask and thanks again to all the helpfull posts!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 03:16 AM by Festoller »
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Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2641
You setup looks great!

How about posting a reply on the Solution (fence & stop) for cutting small pieces with the Kapex thread and include the last photo from you post above.  You could certainly answer a few questions there.

... and, did I mention that your setup looks great?   [thumbs up]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline SeamusGotJ

  • Posts: 3
Hi Festoller

Do you think your setup would also work with the MFT/3-VL and the CMS Modules for the tablesaw and router module?

Best regards from Switzerland, Seamus

P.S. Feel freee to send me a PM in german on this topic ;-) (my english isn't very good...)

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3304
hi there.
welcomr to the fog.
i dont see any reason why it wouldnt work on the vl.
im not sure about the cms.
if you got the crown stops and attached the ls position to that i would probably fit on the cms extrusion
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Festoller

  • Posts: 234
Hi Seamus,

yes it works perfectly! I have recently changed to the CMS OF Module and it works perfect, although you just can use the original CMS OF fence for most of the projects. The VL is also a perfect extension for cutting larger pieces!

If you have questions let me know.
The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. -Douglas Adams-

Offline SeamusGotJ

  • Posts: 3
Hi Festoller

Great to hear from you! And yes, I have some questions  ;)

- Do you use the same setup across the MFT/3 together with the VL?
- Do you use the CMS TS module together with the LS?
- Can you tell me the Artikelnr. form the Kapex - MFT/3 connector?
- What are the sizes of the board below the Incra LS Positioner Base that you use?
- Would it be possible if you could share some photographs here in this thread?

It's great to know, that the MFT/3-VL and the positioner work well together!

Best regards, Seamus

Offline Festoller

  • Posts: 234
Hi Festoller

Great to hear from you! And yes, I have some questions  ;)

- Do you use the same setup across the MFT/3 together with the VL?

Yes, I use both the Kapex extension and the VL, but as mentioned before, the original CMS OF Module fence will do most of your projects.

- Do you use the CMS TS module together with the LS?

I don't have the CMS TS module, but I would assume it works great with the LS.

- Can you tell me the Artikelnr. form the Kapex - MFT/3 connector?

# 494369

- What are the sizes of the board below the Incra LS Positioner Base that you use?

Just a random piece of Multiplex no specific size, it should fit the grid for clamping. Here's another version that might be even better:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/enhanced-may-mft3/

- Would it be possible if you could share some photographs here in this thread?

Let me know what detail you would like to see and I'll post some photos.

It's great to know, that the MFT/3-VL and the positioner work well together!

Best regards, Seamus
The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. -Douglas Adams-

Offline SeamusGotJ

  • Posts: 3
Hi Festoller

Thanks for your answers!

The version with the Qwas Rails ist very nice, but I think I want as much space as possible between the Incra LS Positioner and the, well whatever  ;) So I think I prefer your version of connecting the LS base...

Thanks again!

Best regards, Seamus

Offline plouf

  • Posts: 44
Hi Festoller,

I came up to this old but very interesting post and got a question. Did you experience the mft/3-VL with the CMS support and lift without the fence? Or did you stick to the router table shown in the pics you posted here?

I'm still evaluating different kind of setup's and wonder how the VL (the way you described it)  could fit as a router table used with the Incra fence. What I would certainly miss in this setup would be a track for a miter gauge (if I don't use the sliding table as an option for the VL).

Another option would be to make my own additionnal router table and connect it to the MFT/3, like in the examples posted by Peter Halle and Stonemessage before, and use some ideas of Guido Henn's jack lift. But I'm not quite sure I can make the connexion to the mft/3 precise and levelled enough. Hence pondering a system based on the VL.

regards,

- plouf -

Quote from: Festoller
Yes, I use both the Kapex extension and the VL
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 03:53 AM by plouf »

Offline Papajoe

  • Posts: 26
  • too little time!
Thank You for this post. I have been researching which (first) router table to purchase. I like the cmd vl, and would have choose it, if it had the capability to do box joints and dovetails efficiently. although I have ordered an Incra joinery package, I think this system would work very well. everything day to day on the cmd vl setup, just add the incra positioned to do joints. It seems to easy, what am I missing?????

any updates of a cmd vl / incra positioned?
thanks
papajoe

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1328
Festoller,

Did you ever figure out a simple solution for connecting the router table to the MFT other than using a clamp?

Great idea.  Thanks for posting this.

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
Sorry to resurrect such an old thread. The Incra positioned looks AWESOME for the MFT! However the pictures on @Festoller original post dont' show up for me :( probably too old.

Does anyone have a YouTube video or link to pictures of his setup?

Thanks!

Matt

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
Nvm, figured it out. Just ordered the plate from precision dogs and will order the positioner. which online dealer do people like best for Incra?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
I've ordered from them direct during their annual holiday sale (Dec/Jan).  The discount mostly offsets the expense of shipping.  Obviously their website has the full assortment of products/options available.  Alternatively, Carbide Processors typically offers free shipping over $150, but sometimes their selection of incra products isn't as extensive. 
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1328
I've ordered from them direct during their annual holiday sale (Dec/Jan).  The discount mostly offsets the expense of shipping.  Obviously their website has the full assortment of products/options available.  Alternatively, Carbide Processors typically offers free shipping over $150, but sometimes their selection of incra products isn't as extensive.

Here's Incra's website where you can buy direct.
Incra

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
Thanks all

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
@RobBob and @RK4345 I just ordered it.

I was trying to figure this out - so yesterday I ordered the MFT attachment plate from Precision dogs *with* the TS plate (as I understood it you can't use the router plate that comes w/ the positioner).

So really I just needed the positioner with a fence. Incra does sell the positioner only but doesn't look like it comes with a fence.

Their site was a little confusing for me to navigate so I just got the "basic system"... don't really need the 90 degree fence I don't think that it comes with (probably more for routing, I'm going to use it on my MFT for cutting). Hopefully I got the right thing?

Matt


Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
That’s the right product code.  If you decide to use this for routing, get the wonder fence which adds behind the fence dust collection.  The basic fence doesn’t have it and you get a small discount bundling it in now.  But you can always get that a la carte later.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 10:22 AM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline duc996

  • Posts: 164
@mattbyington, you will probably want the right angle fence if you plan on making any dovetails. The Incra system shines when it comes to dovetails. You should also think about getting the complete bundle as well because you will end up buying it later. The wonder fence is a great addition for swinging large raised panel bits and the fence moves independently from one another if you ever wanted to use it for jointing tasks. I have photos of my setup if you want to get some ideas.

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
Thanks @RKA and @duc996 ! Photos would be awesome. Glad I got at least the simple setup then. I was going to just get a fence and the positioner but said **** it.

Okay - will get the wonder fence when I get a router. The budget does have its limits... :)

Offline duc996

  • Posts: 164
Here is my setup, I purchased the regular plate from Precision Dogs. Let me know if you have any questions.


Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
Thank you @duc996 ! Now I jsut need to wait 8 weeks for them to ship mine :)

Matt

Offline PeterJJames13

  • Posts: 32
@mattbyington I'm in your boat. Placed my order on the 20th. Immediately received an email about the lead time (which in fairness to Incra they were upfront about). I think this will be an incredible setup when it all arrives. Luckily I'm not under and time deadlines. Definitely looking forward to getting everything set up!

Offline duc996

  • Posts: 164
Thank you @duc996 ! Now I jsut need to wait 8 weeks for them to ship mine :)

Matt

I was lucky and found the LS Positioner on eBay!

Offline PeterJJames13

  • Posts: 32

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
It's oK. give us something to look forward to :)

Matt

Offline PeterJJames13

  • Posts: 32
Agreed 100%

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 250
Someone needs to explain to me why this is so desirable. I don't get it. Is there a video of it setup for MFT/router use?

Offline PeterJJames13

  • Posts: 32
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/mft-upgrade!-incra-ls-positioner-incremental-system-vs-table-saw-fence-on-mft3/?all

I'm not a huge fan of the CMS fence - I'm HOPEFUL this will help a bit with the Incra Wonderfence. I could be wrong, but it'll be fun finding out.

Offline CirclDigital

  • Posts: 67
Someone needs to explain to me why this is so desirable. I don't get it. Is there a video of it setup for MFT/router use?

It’s a near perfect fence with a precision and repeatability that others can only dream of...... and it’s quick to adjust as well. Only real downside is that it needs some space.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 12:54 PM by CirclDigital »

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
It depends on what you want to do.  The stock CMS fence offset from the router bit is set with a bump and tap until you get it where you want.  The incra is zero'd out to the bit, then just use the scales.  As you lock it down, the mechanism engages the threaded rod and it locks perfectly and exactly where you want.  If you need to fine tune it the micro adjust will move in thousandth's of an inch (with a positive detent so you're not guessing).  If you screw up a piece and need to come back and redo it, no problem, that fence system will position the fence exactly where you want it, time after time.  There are multiple slots on top for scales, so you can have one scale zero'd out for one operation and other scale for another operation.  If you want to plow an ~18mm dado with a 1/2" bit, get your calipers out and measure the panel thickness, measure your bit width exactly, and add 3 thousandths for clearance and do the math to figure out how much that fence needs to move to get your desired result.  It will be perfect.  The fence halves can be offset for jointing in fine increments as well.  It uses two tapered wedges with increments on them, so less elegant than the micro adjust above, but still very accurate. 

I'm sure there are other ways to accomplish everything above in a more accurate way with the factory fence, but the incra makes it easy. 

They provide templates that slide into the scale slots on the top.  These templates allow you to make machine cut dovetails and finger joints with precision.  You do have to go through a few test cuts with scrap to get the bit height right and zero the fence to the  bit, but once you've done that, just follow the cut marks on the template.
-Raj

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 250
Thank you for the detailed reply. So its main use here is to correct the fence on the CMS-VL. I'm looking at router tables and I'm thinking with all the costs involved I'll be going a different rout. I mean route.  ;)

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 148
I haven't used an Incra setup.

I have just purchased and set up a CMS-VL on my MFT (haven't used it yet).

The Incra system created by FOG members is both compelling and intriguing, but costly.

Looking at Incra's website - it seems they are marketing it primarily for repeatable and automatic custom joinery.

Having progressed from a standard router table where fences are set by eye, the heel of my hand, or crude micro adjusters I think Festool's fence would be more than adequate for many of us (me).

If it becomes a hassle - OR - if I start wanting to make more exotic joints, the Incra setup created here just makes sense.

I've always hated traditional dovetail router jigs, and owned a couple different ones. The alternatives are many including hand cut, band saw cut, and now the Incra. The Incra seems to be the most consistent method.
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline CirclDigital

  • Posts: 67
I feel you are doing yourself a bit of a disservice by just looking at the Incra the way you do..... the jointing features are the icing on the cake, not it’s primary function.

The positioner is an accurate and very user friendly fence which primary function is getting you there with the least amount if fuss. Instead of 5-6 test cuts you now will only need 2 and when you need to do a repeat cut later you can simply do that by setting it at a number as well. Not so with most other solutions.

Great if you don’t value or need the accuracy, but why then spend all that for a pretty basic Festool system with a mediocre fence (I’m a fan of most things they have but not all). Lots of better option out there for way less.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 10:22 AM by CirclDigital »

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
Incra just e-mailed me - mine shipped and will arrive this Thursday - woo-hoo!

Hope you guys are getting yours soon, too.

Matt

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
That wasn’t too bad...5-6 weeks and you have the long weekend to test it out!
-Raj

Offline PeterJJames13

  • Posts: 32
Incra just e-mailed me - mine shipped and will arrive this Thursday - woo-hoo!

Hope you guys are getting yours soon, too.

Matt

Mine too! We must have been on the same batch. Looking forward to seeing all it can do :-)

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 165
Me too! Unfortunately I'm out of town this weekend so I can't play with it - but next week for sure.

Matt

Offline PeterJJames13

  • Posts: 32
Me too! Unfortunately I'm out of town this weekend so I can't play with it - but next week for sure.

Matt

Don't feel so bad - I'm working all weekend so it'll have to sit for me as well lol.