Author Topic: MFT Upgrade! Incra LS Positioner Incremental System vs. Table Saw Fence on MFT/3  (Read 141973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
I am building a split top roubo with an Incra TS installed in the split. The top slabs are 26"76"3" with a 8" split. The center support beam (underneath the split) has t-tracks with t-track locks to accept the Incra TS system and keep it parallel to the track. The sides of the top have two sets of parallel t-tracks to support a festool style bracket for the guide rail. I am not using the original fence on the Incra system, I opted for a 80/20inc extrusion that is .5" thick so that the fence can slide under the festool guide rail and cut stock as thin as the fence dimension, and to a very small width with repeated accuracy. The system also utilizes a Incra miter gauge with a custom bracket that attaches in the same fashion as the Festool MFT systems. I had the top slabs CNC bored with 3/4" holes so I can use qwas style dogs for all alignment, and veritas bench accessories. Placing the fence below table surface provides the capability of ripping thin stock, but more importantly, allows you to use the Incra-Festool system for narrow rips. For safety I position the fence to the right side of the track to eliminate the risk of kick back from pinning both sides of the cut.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RonWen

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1701
    • Ordering
I am building a split top roubo with an Incra TS installed in the split. The top slabs are 26"76"3" with a 8" split. The center support beam (underneath the split) has t-tracks with t-track locks to accept the Incra TS system and keep it parallel to the track. The sides of the top have two sets of parallel t-tracks to support a festool style bracket for the guide rail. I am not using the original fence on the Incra system, I opted for a 80/20inc extrusion that is .5" thick so that the fence can slide under the festool guide rail and cut stock as thin as the fence dimension, and to a very small width with repeated accuracy. The system also utilizes a Incra miter gauge with a custom bracket that attaches in the same fashion as the Festool MFT systems. I had the top slabs CNC bored with 3/4" holes so I can use qwas style dogs for all alignment, and veritas bench accessories. Placing the fence below table surface provides the capability of ripping thin stock, but more importantly, allows you to use the Incra-Festool system for narrow rips. For safety I position the fence to the right side of the track to eliminate the risk of kick back from pinning both sides of the cut.

Welcome to the forum!
Your project sounds great, please post some pictures when available.

Offline plouf

  • Posts: 44
Hi Festoller,

Coming back again to your very interesting post. With a question: is the narrow block of wood (that sit under the carriage clamp) just there to ease the alignment the LS positionner or is it for another purpose that I can't figure out?

Thanks for your help!

regards,

- plouf -

« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 02:40 PM by plouf »

Offline Iwood75

  • Posts: 122
Love your set-up! However, if you do add the Wonder Fence, don't count on its vacuum port to do its job.
I have the Incra router table/Positioner/Wonder Fence package and the DC is my only complaint. The dust and chips just don't want to travel all the way to the end of the fence.  Incra strongly recommends an under-table solution and even has a plan for one on their website. I'll be building one as soon as I can get to it.  Joel
More is never enough.

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2631
Hi Festoller,

Coming back again to your very interesting post. With a question: is the narrow block of wood (that sit under the carriage clamp) just there to ease the alignment the LS positionner or is it for another purpose that I can't figure out?


I'm sure that the narrow block is mounted on the larger wood base [90 degrees to the front edge] to help align the LS with the wood base, which in turn butts up against some dogs aligning the whole unit with the MFT's grid of 20mm holes.  

It has been six years or so since I have mounted my LS on my MFT, but I used to simply align the LS with the table Guide Rail by simply butting the LS''s fence up against the backside of the Guide Rail and then clamp the base in place.  Quick and easy enough, but Festoller's method looks great too.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 06:27 PM by Corwin »
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3304
Love your set-up! However, if you do add the Wonder Fence, don't count on its vacuum port to do its job.
I have the Incra router table/Positioner/Wonder Fence package and the DC is my only complaint. The dust and chips just don't want to travel all the way to the end of the fence.  Incra strongly recommends an under-table solution and even has a plan for one on their website. I'll be building one as soon as I can get to it.  Joel

i have the incra ls and wonder fence. i have my ct22 extracting the dust with the 50mm hose from the boom arm
the dust did build up in the extrusion and in the non extracted extrusion.
i removed the black end cap from the non extracted extrusion to let the air be drawn through there
the dust colection in improved an lot
i havnt  as much suction out away from the joining but anything that goes into the joining is extracted  perfectly. the fence is rarely away from the bit anyway
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Festoller

  • Posts: 234
Hi Festoller,

Coming back again to your very interesting post. With a question: is the narrow block of wood (that sit under the carriage clamp) just there to ease the alignment the LS positionner or is it for another purpose that I can't figure out?

Thanks for your help!

regards,

- plouf -



Hi plouf,

yes it's just for simple alignment, no other purpose!

The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. -Douglas Adams-

Offline Iwood75

  • Posts: 122
Hi Alan,

Would you please detail your Wonder Fence DC set-up a little further? I'm not understanding what you mean by "non extracted extrusion." I'd like to try your idea before building Incra's under-table DC. Photos would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks!  Joel
More is never enough.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
Joel

As I understand Allan's jargon, he's referring to the extrusion closest to the operator as being non-extracted. The DC connection is only on the rear extrusion, the fence itself is split to allow for larger router bits. There's a small plastic piece that floats between the two extrusions to help with closing the holes on the rear of the fence. Could be wrong but that's how I read it.

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3304
sean is mostly correct.
there are two extrusions. the infeed side adn the out feed side of the bit. the out feed side has the dc port. the infeed side is blocked on the end nearest to the operater. i removed the square end cap. you can now look down through the two axtrusions and ut the dc port.

i will get a pic for you
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Reiska

  • Posts: 1162
  • Hackers build things, Crackers break them.
The LS positioner has the attachment T-tracks on 5½" centres so you clearly cannot just screw two jig dogs to the track and drop it into an MFT-tables holes, but would it work with a similar support plate as pictures above with four jig dogs bolted through the base at 96mm centers in a 192mm x 192mm (3 x 3 holes) pattern and screwed tight under the MFT with the spare Festool clamp knobs that everyone has? Or would four dog be an overkill? Maybe two dogs at opposing  corners?

What I'm trying to achieve with this idea is to
- get rid of the clamping need (substitute with dogs and under table screws)
- have the attachment system self-aligning and
- also land at a freely movable fence system along lenght of the MFT-table to be able to reach to a CMS-VL module tool but at the same time enable fence support as far as the far end of the MFT since even the 635mm version of the incra only reaches about half way across the MFT if it is attached to the edge like in Festollers case.



The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
Reiska,

Incra makes a cross member for their fence to be used with their tablesaw system. Check the dimensions of the cross member to see if it could line up with the MFT. Then you could attach the fence system to the t tracks on the MFT rails rather than the dog holes. Dog holes could still be used for alignment but you wouldn't have to reach under the table to attach your fence.
 
Update: on incramentaltools.com they offer an Mount Kit XL with a 33" range. That should be wide enough to accommodate the MFT at around 30". You may need to make brackets however.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 06:06 PM by Sean KS »

Offline Reiska

  • Posts: 1162
  • Hackers build things, Crackers break them.
Hmm.. this thread is rapidly sliding towards an expensive thought experiment...

Played a bit with Sketchup and mocked up a visualization of an Incra XL tablesaw positioner (34" wide fence, 52" long positioner - apparently 52" is only marketing speak and the picture is vaporware since the longest positioner incra has is a 32" one which is reflected in picture #2) on top of an MFT/3 + MFT-VL extension with mocked up V-groove supports for the fence to support the weight/torgue of the positioner when extended.

85407-0 85409-1

What I'm thinking here is to minimize the required parts (get rid of the Incra lenght wise tracks, cross members and side attachment plates) to keep storage simple, but at the same time retain accuracy, repeatablity and usability.

Wonder would something like this work in real life with jig dogs used for positioning and under table knob tightening without the table wide cross member at the positioner end that was mentioned above and that comes with the Incra LS-TS package?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 04:52 AM by Reiska »
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
Does Incra make a 52" positioner? I know they advertise 52" rip capacity but I've only seen 32" positioners. If you've spotted a longer on let me know I'd be very interested. I like the simplicity of your design with the really long positioner though.

Offline Fridolin

  • Posts: 17
My variation on this theme (which i did a while ago) needs only raildogs to fasten the Incra LS Positioner.
It is installed and calibrated in minutes.

Offline Reiska

  • Posts: 1162
  • Hackers build things, Crackers break them.
Unfortunately after reading the fine print you seem to be correct Sean - they indeed only have a 32" positioner and the 52" is just marketing speak - dang! [sad]
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
My thinking was a 25" positioner ... If you adapt it to a "bench dog base" you can simply move it- I just don't like the idea of a really long positioner.

Offline Reiska

  • Posts: 1162
  • Hackers build things, Crackers break them.
Yes Kev, I think you are rather correct in your assessment.

If you need to move the positioner anyway for wider cuts it doesn't really matter if you have a 25" or 32" positioner since both will have about two positions on the table to cover the whole lenght of the MTF+VL unit and the shorter fence obviously stores in a smaller space as well and probably doesn't need the V-track supports either.

Just adds a bit of complexity to find a suitable nice round offset distance for the further position to add in your head to the fence tape measure instead of working in brain-dead mode with a single long fence that you can just look at the number on the tape. Would hate to have to add 647mm to every measurement in my head  [tongue]
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Michael_Swe

  • Posts: 362
The measuring tape on the Incra is slideable to enable it to be re-zeroed anywhere. There is four or five slots for sliding tapes, so you can have one tape loaded for each position you put the positioner in. The slots are for having multiple pattern tapes loaded at once so you won't need to switch tape between different join types (dovetail, box, etc).

I would do like this:
Make a "reset-block" which would be inserted in a dog hole and calibrate it to have a nice even number of millimeters to the kerf.
Put the LS fence against the block and rezero the appropriate tape measure.
Best would be if this tape measure really is the long end of a longer tape, i.e actually shows the real distance to the kerf.
Maybe color code the two tapes so you don't mistakenly measure off of the wrong tape.

I don't know if the above is understandable as I think you haven't seen the LS up close. I think it would work great, though. I'd happily arrange for some mock up photos for this arrangement if the words are not clear enough.

//Michael

Offline Reiska

  • Posts: 1162
  • Hackers build things, Crackers break them.
I hear you loud and clear Michael. The tricky bit is to find that nicely suitable even amount of mm to adjust to for the second position. Or possibly actually three positions if one would use the 25" standard LS positioner to cover the whole length of the MFT. Edit: Ok, reading some more fineprint the incra spec sheets state the _travel_ of the fence as the 17/25/32" and this does not include the locking assembly. So actually the 25" version is rather conveniently sized after all at an actual lenght of 860mm.

Since I don't have a VL module I can't measure how long exactly would the MFT/3 + VL up to the TS-saw blade be and there is very little in the way of dimensions available on the net about the VL-unit - 480mm x 773mm was about what I found. With a guesstimate that the saw blade would be abt. in the middle of the VL table that would leave still 1400mm of "saw table" space minus what ever the incra positioner takes space. With a travel of 635mm (25") that would mean three positions to cover the entire length of the table.

Here is a corrected version of the two possible 25" fence positions mocked up:

85437-0

Not that I believe it would not be very often that I would be ripping something closer to 1400mm wide on a table mounted TS against a fence rather than just going at it with the saw on track.

Nor do I believe I would be trying to do dovetail joints that wide on this system with the router module mounted in the VL. So in a way this is a a bit academic I guess.  [embarassed]

If the 810mm (32") table saw positioner model could be used that would nicely cover the whole table length with only two positions and have some overlap as well to aid finding that 'nice and round offset'.

On a related note, how wide boards you can realistically dovetail on an incra positioner with the jumbo right angle fixture? All videos of it show nice drawer-side sized pieces clamped to it but can you get anywhere near a leigh d4r's 24" of capacity? That would mean pretty much max extension of the incra with a support area only at one corner - I have a hard time believing that nothing would move while being slid over a router...  Just asking to calibrate my expectations on the possibilities of this fence system... [wink]
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 07:41 PM by Reiska »
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 302
Is the joint between the Incra positioner and the Incra fence so stiff that it prevents this system from making out-of-square / out-of-parallel cuts?

Offline Michael_Swe

  • Posts: 362
You don't need to find a nice even amount of millimeters. Just cut a set-up block with dimensions that takes care of your uneven numbers.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
Reiska,

It is possible to do long dovetails with the system. The supplied templates are 18" long or so, I've never pushed it passed that so I cannot attest to the precision. However, the right angle fixture can be tricky to navigate that wide of boards. To aid I use jigs. Place a fence on top of the right angle fixture. I use a miter slider in my table saw miter slot (you could use your sliding table on the router module) and attach the fence to the slide. It remains rigid on the miter slide in the linear direction, but can slide laterally when you move the incra fence to a new cut position. I used 80/20 components from around the shop for this. Using this method you have more support on the far end of the workpiece to ensure nothing slips out of alignment. It gave me good results. I wish now I had taken some pictures of the set-up.

I do believe your system would benefit from your idea of locking the rip fence to the v-groove. The incra system is very rigid without engaging the lock on the front of the rip fence. But when it's tightened to the table saw rail in the front it really cannot move anywhere.

I like your project very much, I hope it comes together to fit your needs,
Sean KS

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Reiska,

It is possible to do long dovetails with the system. The supplied templates are 18" long or so, I've never pushed it passed that so I cannot attest to the precision. However, the right angle fixture can be tricky to navigate that wide of boards. To aid I use jigs. Place a fence on top of the right angle fixture. I use a miter slider in my table saw miter slot (you could use your sliding table on the router module) and attach the fence to the slide. It remains rigid on the miter slide in the linear direction, but can slide laterally when you move the incra fence to a new cut position. I used 80/20 components from around the shop for this. Using this method you have more support on the far end of the workpiece to ensure nothing slips out of alignment. It gave me good results. I wish now I had taken some pictures of the set-up.

I do believe your system would benefit from your idea of locking the rip fence to the v-groove. The incra system is very rigid without engaging the lock on the front of the rip fence. But when it's tightened to the table saw rail in the front it really cannot move anywhere.

I like your project very much, I hope it comes together to fit your needs,
Sean KS

Bumping this thread.  I take delivery of my Incra LS-25 tomorrow and plan on setting some stuff up this weekend for a few projects.  I won't give it all away now, but it involves my MFT, my CMS-VL (using the sliding table) and this positioner.  I have done a TON of research here and elsewhere in trying to find MY optimal setup.  I think this will be very close...  I plan on using this all in great concert to achieve a lot of items for my kitchen projects:
  • Dovetails for drawers
  • quicker repeatability on rails and stiles
  • a lot more control over my CMS' current fence setup (no offense Festool  [wink])
  • I am sure a lot more as i get setup and running

I am very interested in "connecting" the LS slider and my sliding table on the CMS.  I think it can be done to do wide dovetails and is part of the reason I went with the LS-25 instead of the 17.

I will do my best to snap pics and document as best I can...

cheers

Bryan
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Crazy that this thread was just brought to my attention. I've been dreaming up a solution for fast paralell rip cuts with my mafell track system, which differs from festool's version as it has no t-track on top. Long story short, I figured bumping the rail up to the incra fence might be the ultimate solution, and it looks like I'm not alone in this thought. Awesome thread!

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
On a related note for all of you Incra owners... which bits do you prefer?  I have heard a lot of good on the CMT and Whiteside sets.  I have some Whiteside bits and believe you can never go wrong with them, but have heard equally good topics on the CMTs.

Any vote one way or another?  I have pretty much boiled it down to those two.

cheers
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Peter Durand

  • Posts: 191
I have both manufacturers' bits. Overall, well can't say. If I was to buy another bit, I would probably steer to Whiteside.

However I have found that the Freud Quadra bits are all they say they are. Unfortunately they only come in limited shapes.

Offline amt

  • Posts: 379
Can't wait to hear about the Incra LS plus the Festool slider.  I have not done any dovetails on my Incra yet, but I have some concerns (maybe unfounded) about the "slider" that is normally used with the Incra fence.  I am actually wondering if I can use a Incra miter with the Wonderfence, and I am hoping that the Festool slider combination will give me some ideas.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
bkharman

I vote CMT, never had a quality issue. The only reason I use a lot of them and less whiteside is because the CMT case at my local McGuckin Hardware is always stocked up. The only difference in quality that I've seen is when moving to larger bits on 1/2 shanks. Whiteside beat the pants of CMT's at that point in industrial quality.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
amt,

Me and that right angle fixture have some serious beef. It cuts darn fine dovetails on narrow stock, it takes some time and attention to do drawer boxes with that thing though. The problem in the system is isolated to that one part. If I were to do my set up over again, and Im planning to, I'd use a Jess'em fence and Miter Slide attachment. Thinking about this system for larger joinery I think the Festool sliding table can be linked to the whole system. If you replaced the Jess'em miter fence with a Techno-Isel extrusion you could easily clamp the work piece to the miter fence with festool clamps. And attach the fence to the Festool sliding table for greater stability, smoother slide, and less deflection risk. Then you could really use that Incra postioner for all its 32" of glory.