Author Topic: MFT Upgrade! Incra LS Positioner Incremental System vs. Table Saw Fence on MFT/3  (Read 141972 times)

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Offline amt

  • Posts: 379
Sean, that sounds like a nice solution, but I am hoping I do not have to by the CMS just to use only the sliding table.  When I bought the TS-LS-joinery combo, I also got a router table top with a miter and t-slot channel close to the router insert, similar to what you have pictured above (but not a metal top).  I was hoping I could use that channel for sliding while using the LS+wonder-fence.

Perhaps another option is a sliding table saw attachment.  I know jessem has one, but I can't find any for sale.  Maybe the Grizzly one would work.

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Offline amt

  • Posts: 379
I had a look at the Techno-Isel extrusion parts, and that stuff looks really cool.  I may just build my own slider.  Not sure if the slider would be mounted against the Incra fence, or just bolted to the table top to the left of the router nisert (Incra fence to the right)

Offline NuggyBuggy

  • Posts: 419
I have some concerns (maybe unfounded) about the "slider" that is normally used with the Incra fence.[/b
]
Your concerns are not unfounded.  Their right-angle fence is, in my opinion, a glaring weak link in their packages.  It the ugliest of ducklings in the  Incra family.

The RAF connects to the main fence only via nylon screws which slide along the top of the back of the fence.  This region is very narrow so it is very easy for the thing to deregister- so it never feels secure, and you have to be careful about how or where pressure is exerted so as not to make the thing pop out. 

I don't know what Incra was thinking - it renders an otherwise great product - well, less great.  There are no shortages of complaints out there.  On Sawmill Creek I'm pretty sure there's another thread where a guy used the Jessem Mite-R-slide with an Incra fence... it was something I thought about as I also have the Jessem.

 
“I am on a drug. It’s called Charlie Sheen.”

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
found a thread @ Lumberjocks with Pix their pix are blocked here
google ;   Jessem Mite-R-slide with an Incra fence

 looks like the direction I'm going in soon
 saved the pix to my PC
  I think a 80/20 rail would work as a mount & I'd offset it more off the table to get more usable area to slide from
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 09:24 PM by Slappy »
Mike

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 93
Amt,

The sliding table is just a bonus. The jessem/incra setup would work like a champ without a sliding table. I'd be careful building your own miter slider. I don't think the tolerances are tight enough with a standard aluminum extrusion bearing. They can be pretty sloppy and don't like being torqued. A fully enclosed linear rod bearing is really what is called for in this situation and the Jessem is way cheaper than building one out yourself. These high precision tools take you way out of Kansas and is not a game even the avid DIYer should play. I've ordered the Miter Slider for an up coming project. Ill let you know my thoughts when it gets some use.


Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
Sean , let us know how you mount that Jessem Sliding miter onto the Incra fence  ( you are using the add-on Wonder Fence right   ?  ? )
 I found a deal the Jessem silder so I think I'm gonna get it & the LS system .
Mike

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Hmm.. this thread is rapidly sliding towards an expensive thought experiment...

Played a bit with Sketchup and mocked up a visualization of an Incra XL tablesaw positioner (34" wide fence, 52" long positioner - apparently 52" is only marketing speak and the picture is vaporware since the longest positioner incra has is a 32" one which is reflected in picture #2) on top of an MFT/3 + MFT-VL extension with mocked up V-groove supports for the fence to support the weight/torgue of the positioner when extended.

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

What I'm thinking here is to minimize the required parts (get rid of the Incra lenght wise tracks, cross members and side attachment plates) to keep storage simple, but at the same time retain accuracy, repeatablity and usability.

Wonder would something like this work in real life with jig dogs used for positioning and under table knob tightening without the table wide cross member at the positioner end that was mentioned above and that comes with the Incra LS-TS package?

Reiska,

Did you ever advance on this?  I have my Incra LS-25 "quasi" mounted on my MFT/VL combo currently but like the additional small bits of v-groove you added.  I am wondering if you ever finished this project?

I have mine mounted (as a temporary solution until my 25 mm bit comes in) with two Qwas Rail Dogs and two MFT clamping elements.  It is just meant as a means to get the bloody thing on the table to test out a few things!



 One of the things that caught me slightly off guard is the "play" in the fence.  It moves about 1-2mm fore and aft when you press against the fence  I figured this out... I didn't have the clamping knobs tightened on the MFT Clamping Elements below!  I found it out when I went to take the pics.  Much better (even for a temp solution!) .  I figured it wouldn't be 100% solid, and I assume my flex is in the fact i am using temporary holds on the positioner base instead of a solid lock all around.  I am very excited for this to work out.

One thought was to try out the Lee Valley low profile mounting stops, but alas I do not have them to try out.  Wanted to use those between the positioner and the MFT either with bolts through, or thread them to attach.  If anyone has them, could you let me know if the dogs are threaded to use table knobs underneath?  Would love to get my hands on two or three to test this out, they seem like the winning combo.  I am coming up with a 2nd place item to mimic that effort, but again, waiting for my 25mm bit to arrive.

cheers

Bryan  

PS - Additional pics (as promised!)









« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 04:58 PM by bkharman »
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline plouf

  • Posts: 44
Hi bkharman,

PS - Pics coming soon...

Looking forward to see your solution to this problem too!

- plouf -

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
 I just scored a  Jessem Mite-R-slide @ 25% off  a few days ago & am getting the LS super system as well next week .
 so am looking forward to getting these mated up  to each other . .
So I look forward to you guy's work on this project  [blink]
Mike

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 302
I just scored a  Jessem Mite-R-slide @ 25% off  a few days ago &  . .

Where did you get the Mite-R-Slide Slappy?

Thanks, Dick

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
more Pix I found on the web : 2 different set-ups

Mike

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
I just scored a  Jessem Mite-R-slide @ 25% off  a few days ago &  . .

Where did you get the Mite-R-Slide Slappy?

Thanks, Dick
Amazon had one that was from their warehouse deals
Mike

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Pics uploaded above. Very easy to do via mobile by the way!
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline plouf

  • Posts: 44
Hello bkharman,

Pics uploaded above.

Very nice! Using the rail dogs was a known trick already mentionned here around. But fixing the other side with the clamping elements is a kiss and clever idea. Thanks for posting the pictures.

- plouf -

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Thanks plouf!

It actually holds fairly well too!!

I hope to have my final version ready later this weekend.  Hope to get my 20 and 25 mm bits soon enough.

cheers
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Got my JessEm clear cut "feather boards" today and slapped them on. Ran a few boards through it. I am really liking this setup!  I know it isn't 100% yet, but it works so well. Quickly running through repeat routes and accurately setting things with the micro knob make this a million times better than the Festool fence. No offense Festool, but the fence is the weak link in my CMS setup.

Ultimately, I will have another MFT to the right but this will do nicely for a while.

Here are a few snaps.

Cheers.



People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
Got my JessEm clear cut "feather boards" today and slapped them on. Ran a few boards through it. I am really liking this setup!  I know it isn't 100% yet, but it works so well. Quickly running through repeat routes and accurately setting things with the micro knob make this a million times better than the Festool fence. No offense Festool, but the fence is the weak link in my CMS setup.

Ultimately, I will have another MFT to the right but this will do nicely for a while.
NICE !
 I ordered a LS Super with the 32 LS on Friday incremetaltools gave me 10% off the whole order
 Last week I got the Jessem slider glides system from Amazon for 25% off
I got those Jessem clear guides as well
I still have more parts to order
 look forward to more pix from you
Mike

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Thanks Slappy!  Awesome find on those deals.  I got some penny saving deals off and on, but most of it was just being in the right place at the right time.  By the way, forgot to mention, even with the temporary holding system for this LS, the thing is solid and friggin accurate.  I ran into some difficulties with trying to bore my 20MM holes 96mm on center... but with the rail dogs and clamping elements, it went through about 10 door builds in maple and MDF panels this weekend.  Bryan is a happy camper!  It takes about 30 seconds to take on and off and maybe another 30 seconds to fiddle with it a bit for accuracy and after i get my more permanent mounting solution in place, it should be very adequate.

Bryan
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
Thanks Slappy!  Awesome find on those deals.  I got some penny saving deals off and on, but most of it was just being in the right place at the right time.  By the way, forgot to mention, even with the temporary holding system for this LS, the thing is solid and friggin accurate.  I ran into some difficulties with trying to bore my 20MM holes 96mm on center... but with the rail dogs and clamping elements, it went through about 10 door builds in maple and MDF panels this weekend.  Bryan is a happy camper!  It takes about 30 seconds to take on and off and maybe another 30 seconds to fiddle with it a bit for accuracy and after i get my more permanent mounting solution in place, it should be very adequate.

Bryan
I got a AL 1/4" thick plate from 80/20 on Ebay , I plan on mounting the LS on that & then mount some ( 4 )  Qwas mini rails on the AL plate's underside  to match the MFT hole pattern so then it's just a "drop-in-item" in seconds
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:13 PM by Slappy »
Mike

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
If you call Incra @ Incramentaltools.com has a 10% holiday discount right now
you have to ask
Mike

Offline Michael Garrett

  • Posts: 410
What about putting threaded inserts in the MFT top to mount positioner?
CT 26 HEPA, MFT/3 (2), TS 75 EQ, OF 1400 EQ,  DF 500 SET, CXS SET, C 15+3 SET, Ti-15 Basic, CENTROTEC INSTALLER SET 98-PC, TRADESMAN/INSTALLER CLEANING SET, DOMINO ASSORTMENT SYSTEM, LR 32 HOLE DRILLING SET, GUIDE RAIL FS 3000 (1), GUIDE RAIL ACCESSORY KIT, GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1900/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2 LR 32  (1), Veritas MFT Clamping Kit,  Imperial & Metric Zorbo Forstner Bit Sets, RO 90, ETS 150/3, PSB 420 EBQ w/Accessory Kit, WCR-1000, PARALLEL GUIDE SET, CT 26 BOOM ARM SET, Veritas® Drilling Kit, MFK 700 EQ Router Set

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
What about putting threaded inserts in the MFT top to mount positioner?
I M O ,
 the convenience & speed factor of placement with a plate mount & the Qwas rail dogs , that and you can still use a the MFT holes for other uses when the LS in not on the table 
as  long as your mount plate for the LS is square to the MFT holes & the Qwas doggies have no slop your golden
Mike

Offline Michael Garrett

  • Posts: 410
What about putting threaded inserts in the MFT top to mount positioner?
I M O ,
 the convenience & speed factor of placement with a plate mount & the Qwas rail dogs , that and you can still use a the MFT holes for other uses when the LS in not on the table 
as  long as your mount plate for the LS is square to the MFT holes & the Qwas doggies have no slop your golden

I think this is quick at about 7.05:
CT 26 HEPA, MFT/3 (2), TS 75 EQ, OF 1400 EQ,  DF 500 SET, CXS SET, C 15+3 SET, Ti-15 Basic, CENTROTEC INSTALLER SET 98-PC, TRADESMAN/INSTALLER CLEANING SET, DOMINO ASSORTMENT SYSTEM, LR 32 HOLE DRILLING SET, GUIDE RAIL FS 3000 (1), GUIDE RAIL ACCESSORY KIT, GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1900/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2 LR 32  (1), Veritas MFT Clamping Kit,  Imperial & Metric Zorbo Forstner Bit Sets, RO 90, ETS 150/3, PSB 420 EBQ w/Accessory Kit, WCR-1000, PARALLEL GUIDE SET, CT 26 BOOM ARM SET, Veritas® Drilling Kit, MFK 700 EQ Router Set

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
What about putting threaded inserts in the MFT top to mount positioner?
I M O ,
 the convenience & speed factor of placement with a plate mount & the Qwas rail dogs , that and you can still use a the MFT holes for other uses when the LS in not on the table 
as  long as your mount plate for the LS is square to the MFT holes & the Qwas doggies have no slop your golden

I think this is quick at about 7.05:
that's a great idea but you would still have to secure/tighten those bolts from under the table  (they don't show that part in the vid )   
and your locked into only using the LS on that part of the table  by using the MFT holes & dogs you can use the LS anywhere on table
 you can even use the Incra LS as a parallel cut guide with a fixed TS55 rail & dogs on the rail as well .
Mike

Offline freddmc

  • Posts: 13
Having just set up my LS positioner on my LS table saw fence I can tell you that simply sliding the positioner over the 4 bolts will allow SIGNIFICANT movement of the fence(by probably up to 20 degrees) So it will take more than a few minutes to adjust it so the fence will be 90 degrees. Of course that could be speeded up by using a jig of some sort..

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
I attempted to route out a plate this weekend with my 20mm bit to allow quick setup. It didn't work so well. The holes were snug enough (I saw some posts that the 20mm bit from Festool was not so great, I disagree) but my issue was in alignment. My fault, not the bit

As soon as I have some time (trying to finish my kitchen project) I will get back to my plate project. In the meantime, using the rail dogs and clamping elements works very well for me. I don't have alignment issues and I can get the thing on the table and aligned in under a minute. I know I am using in for routing so it has a bit more lead way, but i am still in love with this setup.
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1840
Having just set up my LS positioner on my LS table saw fence I can tell you that simply sliding the positioner over the 4 bolts will allow SIGNIFICANT movement of the fence(by probably up to 20 degrees) So it will take more than a few minutes to adjust it so the fence will be 90 degrees. Of course that could be speeded up by using a jig of some sort..

On an MFT the jig is built in. Just push the fence up against two dogs and tighten the bolts holding the positioner in place. I would suggest doing this even if one has dogs permanently attached to the positioner base, unless the base is large enough to get some real distance between the dogs, like about five or six holes apart. If the dogs are only 192mm apart (two spaces) and one is hoping to have the Incra fence square and parallel over 30 inches or more the positioning error in the setup will be multiplied by a factor of four or more. Better to have play in the clamping mechanism and align the fence to holes in the table before tightening in position.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1840
I attempted to route out a plate this weekend with my 20mm bit to allow quick setup. It didn't work so well. The holes were snug enough (I saw some posts that the 20mm bit from Festool was not so great, I disagree) but my issue was in alignment. My fault, not the bit

As soon as I have some time (trying to finish my kitchen project) I will get back to my plate project. In the meantime, using the rail dogs and clamping elements works very well for me. I don't have alignment issues and I can get the thing on the table and aligned in under a minute. I know I am using in for routing so it has a bit more lead way, but i am still in love with this setup.

How far apart are you alignment holes, Bryan? You may want to re-think your approach. As you wrote, you can align using rail dogs in under a minute and you KNOW it is aligned using that technique.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983

How far apart are you alignment holes, Bryan? You may want to re-think your approach. As you wrote, you can align using rail dogs in under a minute and you KNOW it is aligned using that technique.

Greg,

My setup is using the rail dogs separated by a single hole  My main difference is that i am doing this left to right, not forward to aft. (see above pics)  So my rail dogs are inserted into the track on the LS Positioner on one side.  I my case, it is on the Lead Screw side.  Then i use the clamping elements to "push" the positioner to the rail dog side.  it is very firm for what i am doing with it.  The only time i had a slight issue was when i applied too much downward pressure to my Clear-Cut wheels and the fence lifted a bit.  As mentioned, I am still working on my final setup, but time is limited there.

Thanks for the advise.  Cheers
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Cellule

  • Posts: 54
What about something like this? seem pretty accurate.