Author Topic: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...  (Read 3240 times)

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Offline darita

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New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« on: October 24, 2017, 09:24 PM »
Woodpeckers has a new Hole Boring Jig for Festool table tops.  Just wondering if it might be a good idea to get one?  They do make good, precision stuff.

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Offline Birdhunter

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 05:06 AM »
Being a Woodpecker product, it probably is well design and constructed. Unless I need a bigger top, I’ll just buy a ready made Festool top.
Birdhunter

Offline Timtool

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 05:25 AM »
It works with a 1/2 inch cutter and bushings for 20mm or 3/4th holes. That's a great option but I wouldn't want to rely on drilling each hole with a half inch cutter and having to move around the router.
It seems far more precise to drill them with a 20mm or 3/4th cutter that you just push down in one go, I have always done it this way. It's easy and accurate.
I'm guessing that if your router isn't top of the line or jitters, that a play could appear, which would increase exponentially as you reposition the jig in holes that are less and less accurate.
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2017, 07:20 AM »
if accuracy is important you may want to take a really close look at the Parf Guide System, 20mm Centrotec Carbide cutter is included.
Look for details https:
//tsoproducts.com/workholding-accessories/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system/
Review the videos by Peter Parfitt and by Dave Stanton demonstrating this system.

@Timtool  comment about repeatable accuracy as you reposition a phenolic plate around is something to keep in mind. When you see what is included with each system, price is not a differentiator.

Hans
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Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 08:44 AM »
Mind you: if you are using metric routers you will have to invest in a 1/2 inch collet, which is quite an expense. Woodpeckers sometimes offer metric equivalents of their (One Time) tools, but not for this one.

IMO the Parf system is a better solution. But that's just my 2 cts.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 10:32 AM »
Collet size shouldn't matter, should it?  I'm not a metric user, but I'd assume someone makes a 1/2" router bit with an 8mm shank (if that is the metric size in question).  And it's the router bit size in reference to the bushing that determines accuracy, not the collet size... correct?  You could technically use a 1/2" router bit with a 1/4" shank as long as the bushing fit.  I wouldn't, but in theory, that should work, shouldn't it?

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2017, 10:46 AM »
The bushings that are part of the product have to be used with a 1/2 inch cutter. Those are very hard to find for a 12 mm collet, and even more for 8 mm collets (I did a search w four suppliers in Europe and did not find any). The cutter is NOT included in this set, so that too is an additional cost…
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 11:20 AM »
if accuracy is important you may want to take a really close look at the Parf Guide System, 20mm Centrotec Carbide cutter is included.
...

My experience with the Parf Guide System is that it is so accurate it's spooky (Halloween is coming :)), and I heard a lot about the accuracy before buying it myself.  The problem with the OTT approach is that it makes it hard to get feedback from the early adopters on just how accurate it is before you commit to buy one.  One the other hand, if you need 3/4" holes instead of 20m holes, and 96mm centers are OK, it might be interesting (instead of boring...  I didn't just really cave into that obvious pun, did I?).

Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 11:25 AM »
The bushings that are part of the product have to be used with a 1/2 inch cutter. Those are very hard to find for a 12 mm collet, and even more for 8 mm collets (I did a search w four suppliers in Europe and did not find any). The cutter is NOT included in this set, so that too is an additional cost…

Ahh... I see what you're saying... it's an either/or thing... Make the system use a bit that's more universally accepted, or include bushings that would enable a wider range of bits to use.
My American arrogance assumed a 1/2" bit would be in nearly every router user's arsenal and it was only the shank size that was the issue.  I didn't realize how hard 1/2" was to come by in metric shanks.

I'd be willing to bet that if this OTT does well at all, the next go-round would include a metric equivalent

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 01:27 PM »
if accuracy is important you may want to take a really close look at the Parf Guide System, 20mm Centrotec Carbide cutter is included.
...

My experience with the Parf Guide System is that it is so accurate it's spooky (Halloween is coming :)), and I heard a lot about the accuracy before buying it myself.  The problem with the OTT approach is that it makes it hard to get feedback from the early adopters on just how accurate it is before you commit to buy one.  One the other hand, if you need 3/4" holes instead of 20m holes, and 96mm centers are OK, it might be interesting (instead of boring...  I didn't just really cave into that obvious pun, did I?).

The proof for any of these systems is to do a 4 (or 5) cut test. It has to be done on video in one take. I have done that.

The problem with this type of jig is that a minor error in the first set of holes becomes a bigger and bigger error as the pattern progresses. Any engineer will tell you that but every woodworker knows that when you are cutting a load of pieces of wood of the same length that you always use the first one cut to mark the next and never ever use the most recent one for marking.

I saw this jig in the sales and dealer area ( the OP was Dan Clermont) and as he is a dealer trying to sell the Woodpecker product I respected his pitch (as it was in the Sales and Dealer area) and did not post anything there.
 
I have yet to see anyone produce a genuine 4 cut test video of any product that can come anywhere near the accuracy of the PGS.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 01:30 PM by Peter Parfitt »

Online Cheese

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 01:53 PM »
I didn't realize how hard 1/2" was to come by in metric shanks.

I checked a couple of router bit catalogs (CMT European & Onsrud) that offer metric sized bits and they offer metric sized cutters with imperial sized shafts, but not the other way around. The closest ones were several CMT's that were 12.7mm (1/2") in diameter, but they also had 12.7mm shafts.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 02:22 PM »
The problem with this type of jig is that a minor error in the first set of holes becomes a bigger and bigger error as the pattern progresses.
I agree on error propagation. That template is a bit small. about 6 x 7 holes would be good.
I have yet to see anyone produce a genuine 4 cut test video of any product that can come anywhere near the accuracy of the PGS.
A copy of the original MFT top with a pattern bit will match that accuracy.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 02:25 PM by Svar »

Offline Svar

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 02:29 PM »
It seems far more precise to drill them with a 20mm or 3/4th cutter that you just push down in one go, I have always done it this way. It's easy and accurate.
With plunge cutting it is hard to avoid tear out on the opposite side.
However, they could always include an extra bushing that fits precisely in the template hole to allow for plunge cutting if one chooses.

Offline Timtool

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 02:41 PM »
The bushings that are part of the product have to be used with a 1/2 inch cutter. Those are very hard to find for a 12 mm collet, and even more for 8 mm collets (I did a search w four suppliers in Europe and did not find any). The cutter is NOT included in this set, so that too is an additional cost…

I have so many 12,7mm(1/2) router bits with 8mm shaft, that I don't know what to do with them. Came with the first used routers I bought. Probably a thing of the past but it seems that as some point it was a very common bit.

I would be more worried about the guide bushing from the jig, you'd likely need a universal adapter plate to fit it on a European router here.
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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 02:42 PM »
....
A copy of the original MFT top with a pattern bit will match that accuracy.

Festool make no claims whatsoever about the accuracy of the 20 mm hole spacing on the MFT3. The also do not give any tolerance for the hole size. The MFT3 was designed as a portable work holding bench with a separate system for track saw cutting that does not rely on the accuracy of the hole pattern. There is plenty of documentary evidence that indicates that the hole size of the MFT3 may vary.

Peter

Offline JimH2

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 02:45 PM »
What is the opening size on the plate. If it were sized to hold a template guide of the appropriate size or included a custom template guide then a 20mm bit could be used for straight plunges greatly simplifying the job. As designed I do believe the spiral cut bit will work nicely, but sometimes simplicity is better.


Offline Svar

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 02:53 PM »
....
A copy of the original MFT top with a pattern bit will match that accuracy.
Festool make no claims whatsoever about the accuracy of the 20 mm hole spacing on the MFT3.
Does it matter what they not claim? It happen to be made on CNC or some line boring machine or whatever. Intended or not the holes are equidistant.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 03:16 PM by Svar »

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 03:25 PM »
Does it matter what they not claim? It happen to be made on CNC or some line boring machine or whatever. Intended or not the holes are equidistant.

Yes it does matter. If it is not in the specification for the sub contractor making the MFT3 tops then they do not need to worry about accuracy. Everyone who has spent a few years working with CNC machines will know that tools wear and they need tweaking to keep accuracy. If there is no obligation on the sub contractor then why should he waste money making something more accurate than specified?

I suggest that you try the 4 (or 5) cut test on an MFT3 !

Peter

Offline Svar

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 03:34 PM »
Does it matter what they not claim? It happen to be made on CNC or some line boring machine or whatever. Intended or not the holes are equidistant.
If it is not in the specification for the sub contractor making the MFT3 tops then they do not need to worry about accuracy.
You don't know that.
There is a difference between having no specs and not telling them to you. How would they do QC on it without documentation?
Upon my request FT did not divulge their specs for blade runout. This does not mean they don't have one.
BTW FT will not release their rail straightness specs either. Does it mean the extruder shouldn't worry about it and just do whatever they want?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 06:30 PM by Svar »

Offline J0hn

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2017, 03:49 PM »
Looks like there are a couple of different threads going on this subject.

I posted some comments with pics in this thread on how I do it

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-sales-dealer-area/woodpeckers-onetime-tool-boring-jig-for-mfts/msg526744/#msg526744

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2017, 04:06 PM »
I didn't realize how hard 1/2" was to come by in metric shanks.

I checked a couple of router bit catalogs (CMT European & Onsrud) that offer metric sized bits and they offer metric sized cutters with imperial sized shafts, but not the other way around. The closest ones were several CMT's that were 12.7mm (1/2") in diameter, but they also had 12.7mm shafts.

Lee Valley has it and ships internationally.

Online Cheese

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2017, 04:14 PM »
Lee Valley has it and ships internationally.

That’s good to know [big grin] I forget about them.   [embarassed]

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2017, 05:06 PM »
Does it matter what they not claim? It happen to be made on CNC or some line boring machine or whatever. Intended or not the holes are equidistant.

Yes it does matter. If it is not in the specification for the sub contractor making the MFT3 tops then they do not need to worry about accuracy. Everyone who has spent a few years working with CNC machines will know that tools wear and they need tweaking to keep accuracy. If there is no obligation on the sub contractor then why should he waste money making something more accurate than specified?

I suggest that you try the 4 (or 5) cut test on an MFT3 !

Peter

Peter,


I perfer the design of the Parf Guide System you demo in your videos.   They provide you with the rulers to set-up the geometry to align the Parf dog holes seperatly.  You can also use it to make Parf dog holes on the sides of custom tables for holding custom boom arms and other jigs you can make on your own.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=75354&cat=1,41637

The biggest problem I have with the Woodpeckers Parf dog jig is the fact that it’s a one time tool they may never make again.

If you loose/wear out a part, there not much you can to replace a missing part on a one time tool.

The UKJ Parf dog guide is better choice for accuracy.  The Woodpeckers seems too dumbed down too much relying on pins rather than precise measurements to make sure the holes are positioned correctly.
 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 06:49 PM by Steven Owen »

Offline jobsworth

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2017, 10:14 PM »
I ordered one. The price ws about the cost of a MFT replacement top. But I find this tool useful unlike some of their stuff.

Things like making work tops etc. since his is a OTT, If I find my self re designing my shop and needing a work bench , assemly table etc, this would do the trick.

Plus i didnt want to be one of those guys who decide to not get it then realize they do need it and post something in the classified hoping someone will sell them one.
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2017, 10:55 PM »
I ordered one. The price ws about the cost of a MFT replacement top. But I find this tool useful unlike some of their stuff.

Things like making work tops etc. since his is a OTT, If I find my self re designing my shop and needing a work bench , assemly table etc, this would do the trick.

Plus i didnt want to be one of those guys who decide to not get it then realize they do need it and post something in the classified hoping someone will sell them one.

Track saw users beat up their tops all the time.  I’m not sure why it’s being released as a one time tool. 

The Triangles, corners radius tools and the custom dowel maker should just be standard tools.  The dowel maker was very cool.  It allowed you to convert any type of wood species into a any size or type of dowel.   

The dowel press is great way to turn left over small hardwood scraps into something useful for another project like dowel.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 11:20 PM by Steven Owen »

Online Cheese

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2017, 10:42 AM »

The biggest problem I have with the Woodpeckers Parf dog jig is the fact that it’s a one time tool they may never make again.

If you loose/wear out a part, there not much you can to replace a missing part on a one time tool.


That's not necessarily the case, in one instance I needed a part that I lost and in the second I needed the complete tool. I contacted Woodpeckers and each time I received the items within 4-5 days.  [cool]

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2017, 01:02 PM »

The biggest problem I have with the Woodpeckers Parf dog jig is the fact that it’s a one time tool they may never make again.

If you loose/wear out a part, there not much you can to replace a missing part on a one time tool.


That's not necessarily the case, in one instance I needed a part that I lost and in the second I needed the complete tool. I contacted Woodpeckers and each time I received the items within 4-5 days.  [cool]

It’s good know.  I guess the CNC’s make life easier reproducing parts.  A lot other manufactures making one off tools don’t do a great job supporting them afterwards.   

Online Cheese

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2017, 01:24 PM »
I guess the CNC’s make life easier reproducing parts.  A lot other manufactures making one off tools don’t do a great job supporting them afterwards.

When I talked with Woodpeckers I was told that they do maintain a small inventory of parts and tools for their OTT product line. That’s the reason they could ship immediately.

A lot smarter than having to break into a production run to machine a widget for some doofus from Minnesota because he lost a part.

Offline JimH2

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2017, 08:14 PM »
I ordered one. The price ws about the cost of a MFT replacement top. But I find this tool useful unlike some of their stuff.

Things like making work tops etc. since his is a OTT, If I find my self re designing my shop and needing a work bench , assemly table etc, this would do the trick.

Plus i didnt want to be one of those guys who decide to not get it then realize they do need it and post something in the classified hoping someone will sell them one.

Track saw users beat up their tops all the time.  I’m not sure why it’s being released as a one time tool. 

The Triangles, corners radius tools and the custom dowel maker should just be standard tools.  The dowel maker was very cool.  It allowed you to convert any type of wood species into a any size or type of dowel.   

The dowel press is great way to turn left over small hardwood scraps into something useful for another project like dowel.



The doweling tool is awesome.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2017, 08:29 PM »
When I talked with Woodpeckers I was told that they do maintain a small inventory of parts and tools for their OTT product line. That’s the reason they could ship immediately.
A lot smarter than having to break into a production run to machine a widget for some doofus from Minnesota because he lost a part.
After being in business for a while WP could probably estimate how many and which parts they might need in the future based on the number of doofuses who bought their jigs.  [big grin] Considering their customer median age, those are mostly small parts.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 08:32 PM by Svar »

Online Cheese

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Re: New Woodpeckers One Time Tool...
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2017, 10:49 PM »
After being in business for a while WP could probably estimate how many and which parts they might need in the future based on the number of doofuses who bought their jigs.  [big grin] Considering their customer median age, those are mostly small parts.  [big grin]

Ya Svar, I agree...you’ll notice that Woodpeckers has NOS of their OTT to sell on occasion. Is this because they’re selling the stocked completed tools or just assembling the extra parts they have on hand and then assembling tools to rid themselves of excess inventory. We’ll never know...and I don’t care, as long as they continue to service the products they sell, I’ll continue to be a customer.  [cool]

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.