Author Topic: No CT wings for me, I guess  (Read 23162 times)

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Offline bror

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2014, 04:17 PM »
Hi Rogier

I say again - I think that your designs are far better than mine - well done. The idea of having the work piece clamp hold itself to the bench is so simple but so brilliant.

One addition that you might like to think about...In order to hold a guide rail in place why not use the channel on the underside. You would need to stop it off with a rubber plug (not sure of the cross section of the channel but about 10 cm long in order for it not to get sucked inwards) and a short strip of rubber at either end of the work piece that goes between the rubber strips under the rail.

By the way; You can damage an extractor if you do not allow some bleeding. I am sure that the CT Wings design takes this into account but I am not sure that Rogier's designs do.

Peter

Peter, adapting the rail like that, wouldn't that look an awful lot like the mafell aerofix? A nice product, but I'm looking for a vacuum rail-holder that I could use whenever I needed one. On any length of rail. Shouldn't get in the way when I don't need it. And be cheap.
Furthermore I wanted it to be able to slide forward without getting off track.

Rogier
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 04:34 PM by bror »

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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2014, 12:19 AM »
Hi Rogier

I am not familiar with the Mafell aerofix but just watched a video about it. Yes, that is the sort of idea that I had in mind except I would want to use the standard Festool track rather than a special one. The Festool guide rail has the rubber underneath which should act as a seal to the left and right of the rail. All that is then needed are seals under the rail at each end of the workpiece. This could be just a couple of small pieces of that non slip matting that you can see in the middle photo of my rubbish design somewhere up above.

Peter

Offline bror

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2014, 05:42 PM »
Thanks, Slartibartfass, Alex, Kev, roblg3, Peters, GOT8SPD, RKA, Ollie, waho6o9, Roseland, andyman, overanalyze, Pip, Dongar, NERemodeling and bossie.

I've used the vacuum lifting jig four times in the last weeks, lifting tiles, opening a concrete lid and removing floors. It worked OK. Even with a fair amount of air-bleeding.

I've even used the bench-vacuum-jig a few times, I don't call my old Festool vacuum a spare any more.

I guess there must be a lot more possible uses.

Has any one got a (brilliant) idea for this new use of the dust extractor?

I'm all for sharing inspiration.

@bossie, thanks for the link alert.

@Peter Halle, take care and all the best to you

Rogier
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 06:14 PM by bror »

Offline #Tee

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2014, 04:39 AM »
i was gonna buy 4 ct wings but after this thread im goona cancel that order and make my own lol
When youre feeling depressed just treat yourself to a systainer even if its a mini systainer its ok.

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Offline wow

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2014, 05:35 AM »
I believe that the CT's have bypass motors that have a separate fan for cooling and therefore will not over heat from blocked flow like cheaper vacuums that use the same fan for cooling and vacuum.
 Don

I don't believe this is true? EKAT only shows one motor/turbine that I can see? And I really can't tell if it has an external fan attached to that motor for cooling?

If I am wrong about the bypass motor I'm sure someone will be quick to correct me. Whether I am wrong or right, I don't want misinformation to cause someone to damage their CT. It's wise to be careful to not wreck your CT if you intend to use the vac clamp for extended periods. A small bypass gap ought to do the trick?
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2014, 06:27 AM »
I believe that the CT's have bypass motors that have a separate fan for cooling and therefore will not over heat from blocked flow like cheaper vacuums that use the same fan for cooling and vacuum.
 Don

I don't believe this is true? EKAT only shows one motor/turbine that I can see? And I really can't tell if it has an external fan attached to that motor for cooling?

If I am wrong about the bypass motor I'm sure someone will be quick to correct me. Whether I am wrong or right, I don't want misinformation to cause someone to damage their CT. It's wise to be careful to not wreck your CT if you intend to use the vac clamp for extended periods. A small bypass gap ought to do the trick?

I am sure that getting as much suction power out of the CT to lift blocks and so on is going to risk a burn out unless bleed valves are built in. Now which FOGger has the knowledge to work out just how much 'bleeding' will be needed in order to be able to protect an extractor? Will those calculations work for every extractor in the range?

I think that Rogier's ideas are brilliant but they are not for the faint hearted.

Peter

Offline wow

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2014, 08:21 AM »
I believe that the CT's have bypass motors that have a separate fan for cooling and therefore will not over heat from blocked flow like cheaper vacuums that use the same fan for cooling and vacuum.
 Don

I don't believe this is true? EKAT only shows one motor/turbine that I can see? And I really can't tell if it has an external fan attached to that motor for cooling?

If I am wrong about the bypass motor I'm sure someone will be quick to correct me. Whether I am wrong or right, I don't want misinformation to cause someone to damage their CT. It's wise to be careful to not wreck your CT if you intend to use the vac clamp for extended periods. A small bypass gap ought to do the trick?

I am sure that getting as much suction power out of the CT to lift blocks and so on is going to risk a burn out unless bleed valves are built in. Now which FOGger has the knowledge to work out just how much 'bleeding' will be needed in order to be able to protect an extractor? Will those calculations work for every extractor in the range?

I think that Rogier's ideas are brilliant but they are not for the faint hearted.

Peter

I would think that looking at the CT wings would be a good place to start. Whatever they use for a bleed opening there ought to be a clue, shouldn't it?
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2014, 09:35 AM »
Hi Wow,

The more I think of this the more I think that a home made CT based vacuum clamp is too great a risk. I am already one of the naughty ones who uses a Dust Deputy (risk of static discharge destroying the CT) but I think, after seeing the information above, that I will give up any ideas of such a clamp.

I hope that Festool HQ are aware of the great design ideas that Rogier has demonstrated and feed this into their design team.

Peter

Offline pugilato

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2014, 02:46 PM »
Hmmm... it occurs to me that with these truly nice helpers, you would need to dedicate the vac to the helper, and need another for the machine unless you're going to do some handwork. I wonder if it works with wet-dry vacs.

Offline wow

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2014, 03:29 PM »
Hmmm... it occurs to me that with these truly nice helpers, you would need to dedicate the vac to the helper, and need another for the machine unless you're going to do some handwork. I wonder if it works with wet-dry vacs.

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't? In this case, I think a vacuum is a vacuum. It's simply the suction that the machine produces that we're after. The Festool DE's might well produce more vacuum than a shop vac - I don't know. But as long as the vacuum produced is adequate to the task, I would think it would be fine.

And it would be a lot cheaper to learn a lesson with a shop vac than with a DE...if such a thing were to occur.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2014, 03:41 PM »
I have a Numatic NDD 900 which has a safety circuit that first warns when the motor is working too hard and then shuts the machine down. Not many extractors will have that sort of protection and so I would not risk it.

Peter

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2007
Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2014, 03:59 PM »
i make pattern routed plastics parts, hundreds at at time.  I used a cheap Sears shop vac and the intake on make air compressor for years, sometimes 6-8 hours a day with self made jigs...never burnt one up.  I finally got serious and bought a surplus vac pump.  These are smooth parts so there is serious suction, It may be that for job site use more volume may be needed for leakage.

Offline bror

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2014, 04:14 PM »
Maybe Peter Halle can shed a little light on this,



from: http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/gary-katz-reviews-the-ct-wings/

He appears to know some one who knows all about it.

His statement got me thinking in the first place, btw thanks for that Peter.

Don't know about the construction of the CT 26 and family, but I replaced the motor of my old Festo SR151-AS once. (wasn't it originally a WAP?) It had a seperate fan on the back of the motor for cooling.



But still; you can hear the rpm of the motor rise if you block the inlet completely. I wonder what effects that might have.

I usually let the vacuum-jigs bleed air with the aid of the Festool vacuum air bleeding valve:



In this case the valve was closed (for 12 seconds only), but later on it became clear that this was not necessary at all.

To get lifting power you need maximum surface, thats's more important than suction power.

All you have to do is lower the air pressure inside the jig, than the atmospheric pressure provides the force.

When using vacuum jigs I open the bleeding valve as much as possible for the purpose at hand. It is amazing how little suction you need when the surface is big enough.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 04:35 PM by bror »

Offline roblg3

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2014, 04:19 PM »
festool ct's have built in thermal protection.  is that what we're talking about here?
Rob Gardner
Operator
RL3 Enterprises

Offline amt

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2014, 04:37 PM »
There may be some rare cases where blocking the flow can cause problems with overheating the bearings, and not the motor, but I doubt it's likely to happen for this stuff.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2014, 04:46 PM »
I'm not certain it's analogous but perhaps it's the air impeller equivalent of a router dwelling. If the router bit isn't really cutting, the motor isn't really working. The router motor works hardest when the bit is cutting the most.

By the same token, if an impeller isn't moving any air, it isn't really working, it is dwelling. It seems to me that it would work less and draw less current, (which I'm pretty certain it does). If it had a separate fan for bypass cooling, it would remain happily spinning with only the cooling fan's load.


Tom


EDIT:
It's always a bad idea to let a router bit dwell because it overheats. I don't think the same is true of a CT with a separate cooling fan.
Tom Bellemare
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Offline amt

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2014, 05:20 PM »
There's some info here regarding my message about the bearings. http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/shopbot.htm
The motors referenced there do have separate cooling for the motors.  However, they all have 3 stage fans, and probably produce a lot more heat than the standard 1 or 2 stage vacuum motor

Offline downtheroad

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2014, 06:28 PM »
Tehdoor just posted his version on YouTube today.

Tony

Offline jimbouk

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2014, 04:04 AM »
Thats awesome!
BHC 18, TSC 55REB, OF 1400, MIDI, TS55, TRION, Df500, CSX...

Offline wow

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2014, 05:32 AM »
Anybody know which laser that is that he's using?
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline bror

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2014, 03:45 PM »
I guess the discussion about the possible dangers of restricting or blocking the air flow when using a Festool vacuum has moved to this thread:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/can-ct-vacs-safely-run-under-blocked-suction/msg349293/?topicseen#msg349293

It would be nice to hear an official Festool opinion on the matter though.

Rogier

Offline Bob D.

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2017, 09:50 AM »
Since it is negative pressure (or vacuum) that does the work and not volume of air moved, why wouldn't a HVAC vacuum pump work? They are made to be dead-headed and pull a higher vacuum than a shop vac or dust extractor is meant to.

There are vacuum attachments that you can use with your air compressor that use the venturi affect to draw a vacuum as well. These can be used for vacuum clamping, vacuum chucks for lathes,  and other applications.

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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ben_r_

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2017, 11:26 AM »
Wow, resurrected and old thread here. Good one though, still cool!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline rst

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2017, 04:24 PM »
I've been using a surplus HVAC pump for more than 20 years...$15.00 from a local surplus shop.  I've used it with self made jogs, Virutex clamping jigs and now with the two Festool stations.  These things are virtually indestructible.264096-0264098-1264100-2

Offline ben_r_

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2017, 01:03 PM »
I've been using a surplus HVAC pump for more than 20 years...$15.00 from a local surplus shop.  I've used it with self made jogs, Virutex clamping jigs and now with the two Festool stations.  These things are virtually indestructible. (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Wow! Thank you for mentioning that! Those look awesome (LINK) and much cheaper than the Festool option! Looks like Lee Valley even sells the hold down plate: LINK


Any other brands to check out for similar products? Any suggestions for a new pump? How about a way to add a foot switch?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 01:13 PM by ben_r_ »
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Bob D.

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2017, 04:37 PM »
From their website 80 PSI gives you ~12 PSI vacuum or ~24 Inches of mercury which is pretty good. What you'll be able to pull on any given day depends on the quality of the vacuum pump and the atmospheric pressure where you are, but 24" should be achievable on any day and possibly better with a bit more pressure than 80PSI from your compressor.

Vacuum pumps require maintenance. The oil has to be changed and there are other considerations depending on the model, so it's not as easy as it might seem at first glance. But if you already have a pump hanging around or want to convert a pump to work in your shop there are a bunch of YT videos showing how to do just that.
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Offline rst

  • Posts: 2007
Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2017, 05:52 PM »
I've been using my pump for 20+ years and never did anything except refill the oil jar.  I've noticed that most of the newer ones are oil-less...not sure if that makes a difference.  There are pumps in all sorts of price ranges on Amazon, I've actually been considering another to use with the Virutex clamps which I held onto for use at home.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: No CT wings for me, I guess
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2017, 07:49 PM »
A source is joewoodworker,com or veneer supplies.com. 

If you are interested in vacuum clamping basics I have some unedited videos up on youtube that I did years ago.  Search there for Peter Halle.  (note:  this isn't click bait.  I don't monetize my site.)

Peter