Author Topic: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions  (Read 12746 times)

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Offline wch

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2019, 10:55 AM »
Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

I'm just using some cheap digital calipers. It reads to .01mm, but I don't know if it's really that accurate. I'm sure that, combined with my measurement method, the values I gave were not accurate to .01mm. It might be more like +/- .02 or .03mm, but I can't say for sure.

The way I measured was to put the jaws in the two holes, and while pushing the jaws together gently, and I wiggled the caliper until it settled to a minimum value.

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Offline Dick Mahany

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2019, 01:07 PM »
Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

I'm just using some cheap digital calipers. It reads to .01mm, but I don't know if it's really that accurate. I'm sure that, combined with my measurement method, the values I gave were not accurate to .01mm. It might be more like +/- .02 or .03mm, but I can't say for sure.

The way I measured was to put the jaws in the two holes, and while pushing the jaws together gently, and I wiggled the caliper until it settled to a minimum value.

Another way to measure for hole center spacing would be to put pins in the holes and measure to the outside of the dowels/pins, then subtract the diameter of one pin from the measurement.  It is likely that both the drilled holes and the ground pins/dowels are of high precision and the pin diameters are quite easy to measure.  I have found it more convenient and more repeatable to measure this way than trying to measure directly inside between two  holes.  Just a suggestion to consider.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2019, 01:25 PM »
Nobody is disputing that there has been a small number of rulers produced which were outside of tolerance but I must caution everyone about measuring techniques.

As a rule of thumb any digital device in a sensible budget range should be viewed as not accurate beyond +/- 5 of the of the final decimal point on the screen. Some can be better and the top of the range devices will be very accurate indeed.

When Axminster agreed to take on the various new "Parf" products I insisted that they had the measuring equipment necessary to do their QA. In order to measure the size and spacing of the holes on the rulers they have purchased a machine for that task alone. It cost over £25,000 and there are about another £10,000 of precision reference blocks, probes and so on to make the whole thing work. Also, it is used in a temperature controlled area and items introduced to that area have to be given time to adjust to that temperature.

So, digital kit in the sub £1,000 range should always be used with the final digit to the right of the decimal point as a rounding mechanism for the digit to the left. That means that 1.76 should be read as 1.8 and 0.7182 should be read as 0.718.

Peter

Offline box185

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2019, 02:11 PM »
I spoke to one of the machinists where I work and asked him how to measure the distance between holes spaced on 96 mm centers. He suggested a technique, but also cautioned me to consider the instrument that I am using to measure with.

When I started, I was not certain that I would accomplish anything. That changed when I was able to measure the distance between one hole pair, lock the dial calipers so they could not move, and then proceed to the adjacent hole pair.

I absolutely question the precision of my measurements, but I do not question the fact that I could visibly see the difference when I placed the locked dial calipers in an adjacent hole pair (0.006 to 0.008 inch is visible). When I moved on to the next hole pair, the calipers fell into position. I understood that a pattern existed as I moved down the rule - adjacent hole pairs were different, but the hole pair next to the adjacent hole pair was nearly identical.

I understand the difficulty in making accurate and precise tools, the accumulated errors are always a problem. What tolerance is the hole pattern of this tool designed and tested to?

Measurements aside - I really like the Parf Guide System, but I started questioning my experience when I read the the initial post.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 02:15 PM by box185 »

Offline box185

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2019, 02:24 PM »
When Axminster agreed to take on the various new "Parf" products I insisted that they had the measuring equipment necessary to do their QA. In order to measure the size and spacing of the holes on the rulers they have purchased a machine for that task alone. It cost over £25,000 and there are about another £10,000 of precision reference blocks, probes and so on to make the whole thing work. Also, it is used in a temperature controlled area and items introduced to that area have to be given time to adjust to that temperature.

In addition to having the equipment, they should also have agreed to use the equipment; loop-holes are everywhere. My dial calipers were significantly less than £25,000. Purchased back in 1985, I think I paid $170 and they weren't even digital.


Offline Morse

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2019, 03:55 PM »
I own both the MK1 and MK2 versions of the Parf Guide System. I'm just wondering if what I have observed is acceptable. 

First I place a MK1 and MK2 stick, back to back ( one on top the other) and insert one of the new MK 2 pins through both sticks from the MK 2 side.  I insert the MK 2 pin until the MK 2 pin shoulder passes thru the MK 2 stick and rests on the back of the MK 1 stick.




The second image shows that when I go to the opposite end of the overlaid sticks, I am not able to fully insert a MK 2 pin through both sticks to the point the MK 2 pin shoulder passes thru through the MK 2 stick and touches the underlying MK 1 stick. 

If the MK 1 and MK 2 holes spacing were the same I would expect to be able to line up the pin on both ends at the same time.

I'm hoping what I've described is nothing to worry about.  I have communicated this with Axminster and their solution is for me to return the MK 2 System (using their pre paid label).

I'd really like to keep the MK 2 System. Maybe what I've described is not important  Or maybe I just need new MK 2 sticks which I'm not sure they offer.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I order frequently from Axminster and their shipping times and prices are not out of line. For me usually quicker than an East Coast US order.  I am in California

Offline Morse

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2019, 04:02 PM »
I see I attached same image twice I will try again with first image

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2019, 11:32 PM »
Anyone with rulers which are faulty should contact Axminster Customer Services. But do make a top with the system and check that it works as a very minor variation between a pair of rulers may not be an issue.

Always contact Axminster Customer Services first if you have any problems. They manufacture and distribute the kit and I am unable to help other than provide the guidance that I have given above.

Peter

Offline box185

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2019, 06:16 AM »
Great news . . . Axminster has responded as shown below.

"A new set of rules have been checked with the correct hole spacings and we have arranged to dispatch them later today.

We would like to pass our thanks to you with regard to the feedback and we have changed our manufacturing procedure to accommodate the change.

Regards

Kevin King
Specialist Sales Advisor"

As I mentioned earlier, I really do like the Parf Guide System. I would encourage anyone interested in making their own MFT/3 to use Peter Parfitt's PGS and his technique. The man is a wizard and makes wonderful video for YouTube - great teacher.

I also appreciate the open forum available on the FOG for discussing issues that people have with their woodworking related tools.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2019, 10:50 AM »
Excellent and many thanks for the kind words.

Peter

Offline Bernmc

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2019, 10:44 PM »
Had a similar mail from Axminster today- They’re putting a new set of rulers in an order I have waiting for dispatch.

Very happy with their service - things go wrong occasionally, and it’s the way a company deals with an error that really sets the good ones apart.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 104
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2019, 12:39 AM »
I’m very happy to see a great resolution on this. Peter, you have an amazing mind. Thank you for your work and the grace with which you handle yourself.

Offline casper

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2019, 08:13 AM »
I have just been told by email that the Mk2 system will be available for retail sale until next spring which seems rather vague.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2019, 08:37 AM »
I have just been told by email that the Mk2 system will be available for retail sale until next spring which seems rather vague.

I suspect that bulk export to dealers will only come when Axminster can gear up to the high demand. They have sold out 2 or 3 times since the launch and despite this the demand for the original system remains high.

Peter

Offline box185

  • Posts: 59
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2019, 10:41 PM »
Just to follow up on the second set of Mk II Parf Sticks that were sent out by Axminster . . .

I received the second pair of Parf Sticks this morning and carefully measured them in the same manner that was used to measure the initial pair.  One of the two Parf Sticks was excellent, with only 0.001 to 0.002 inch variation between the hole spacings - this error is most likely attributable to the measurement method, given that I was using a dial caliper. The second Parf Stick exhibited the same alternating error as the initial pair - alternating between positive and negative 0.003 to 0.004 inch.

3.543   +0.0003         3.540   +0.0033
3.542   +0.0013         3.547    -0.0037
3.543   +0.0003         3.539   +0.0043
3.541   +0.0023         3.546    -0.0027
3.544    -0.0007         3.539   +0.0043   
3.543   +0.0003         3.546    -0.0027
3.543   +0.0003         3.539   +0.0043
3.542   +0.0013         3.545    -0.0017
3.543   +0.0003         3.539   +0.0043   
3.542   +0.0013         3.545    -0.0017   

One other detail I noticed was that of the four Parf Sticks I now have, three of them have what I would call an embossed UJK logo. These are also the Parf Sticks which have the alternating error pattern. The one Parf Stick that appears to have the much improved precision has a silk screened UJK logo.

Paul

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2019, 01:01 AM »
Hi Paul

You need to report this to Axminster. I cannot help you and they are not here on the FOG.

Peter

Offline box185

  • Posts: 59
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2019, 07:54 AM »
You need to report this to Axminster. I cannot help you and they are not here on the FOG.

Peter, the post was not directed at you. I am posting this information based on what was observed by the OP. In the open forum of the FOG, there are numerous discussions about tools. This is just another open discussion about this specific tool.

If one were to look at the Axminster website and see the description of this tool, one could read:
  • Straightforward to use, produces highly accurate results
  • Based on the Pythagoras' theorem for infallible accuracy
Some users may have a different experience, and question their technique. Others may question the tool . . .

I have already contacted Axminster - thank you.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2019, 08:10 AM »
@box185

I understand.

I have asked Axminster to sort this out.

Peter

Offline wch

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2019, 12:46 AM »
Axminster sent me another set of replacement Parf sticks (my third pair now), which they said were checked for accuracy. Like box185's replacements, there was one "old-style" and one "new-style" ruler in the package. The old-style ruler has the logo embossed (imprinted) in the surface, while the new-style ruler has the logo raised on the surface.

New (raised logo) above, old (embossed logo) below:
292450-0

These are the spacings I measured, in mm:

Old-styleNew-style
89.9290.05
90.0189.99
89.9790.02
90.0289.98
89.9390.03
90.0389.99
89.9490.03
90.0289.97
89.9290.03
90.0689.94

According to my measurements, the new-style ruler has more consistent hole spacing than the old one.

When I stacked the on top of each other and connected them using the fixing pin at hole 0, and found that for some hole position, the longer drill guide would go through both sticks easily, for some, it went through but was a bit tight, and for some, it would not go through both.

292452-1

292454-2

I decided to calculate the overall positioning of of the holes, assuming that each hole is exactly 6.00mm in diameter, and that my measurements are accurate. (These assumptions may not be exactly true, but later on we'll see that they are still useful.) I then calculated the difference of the hole positions in the old and new ruler.

Old-styleNew-styleCumulative oldCumulative newDifference
89.9290.0595.9296.05-0.13
90.0189.99191.93192.04-0.11
89.9790.02287.9288.06-0.16
90.0289.98383.92384.04-0.12
89.9390.03479.85480.07-0.22
90.0389.99575.88576.06-0.18
89.9490.03671.82672.09-0.27
90.0289.97767.84768.06-0.22
89.9290.03863.76864.09-0.33
90.0689.94959.82960.03-0.21

The smallest difference was .11mm, and the largest was 0.33mm. I found that for the holes that were <.15mm apart, the drill guide went relatively easily through both holes. For the holes that were around .20mm apart, the drill guide would go through both holes, but it required a bit of force. For the two holes that were .27mm and .33mm apart, the drill guide would not go through both holes. (Note that with the fixing pin in place in hole 0 of both rulers, there was a little play, so the rulers could move a tiny bit.) So even if the numbers aren't exactly correct due to measurement error, they do correspond with the behavior of the drill guide.

All this said, I don't think that this necessarily problematic for getting good 90-degree cuts. As I mentioned earlier, I had very good results with the four-cut test on my second work surface, which was made with my previous set of rulers that had more error. To maximize consistency, I think it is probably a good idea to use one ruler to drill all of the holes, and use the other ruler only to form the hypotenuse of the 3-4-5 triangle. When I made my second work surface, I did this without really thinking about it, and looking back on it I think it probably helped with the accuracy of the final result.

Overall, I think the design of the system is brilliant; I just wish I had gotten more accurately-made rulers from the beginning.

A note regarding the accuracy of the digital calipers I have: I agree that in general, one can't expect inexpensive measuring devices to have good accuracy, but I've been pleasantly surprised by these. When measuring in inches, they record a resolution of 0.0005 inches. When measuring in mm, they record a resolution of 0.01mm. I have a pair of 1-2-3 blocks, and when set to inch mode, this caliper says that, for both of them, all three dimensions are within .0005 of the inch of expected. Now, it's possible that the 1-2-3 blocks and the calipers have manufacturing and measurement error that cancel out, but a much simpler theory is that the blocks and calipers are very accurate. Other objects I've measured also result in readings that seem to be very accurate. The reviews I've seen for these cheap digital calipers and similar ones agree that they are surprisingly good.

Offline Bernmc

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2019, 07:01 PM »
I finally got to play with my replacement parf stick yesterday

292522-0

It's not that obvious in the photo, but the original stick on the far left is a distinctly different colour to the other three, and it's this stick that is inaccurate. It's more tarnished than the others.
All three other sticks - the two replacements and one of my originals - appear to be accurate. At least all the holes line up, and can be anchored together by the various pins and locking wotsits in the kit.

Milled half of my bench (it does take a long time to do something like a full-size Paulk worktop), and did a few bench dog/track saw square cuts, and they are perfect. Made me pretty happy  [big grin]

292524-1

Offline box185

  • Posts: 59
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2019, 09:41 PM »
I received a third pair of Parf Sticks today. Both of them have the embossed UJK logo.  I am on travel this week, but I do look forward to checking these new parts out next week.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 188
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2019, 09:52 PM »
@Bernmc - Looking at your first picture, maybe it's just the camera/angle, but, some of the holes seem to be deformed (not crisp/sharp)?

Where did you get that small dust collection hood?

I was ready to buy one of these for making three 32" x 48" tops but after reading through this thread I'm worried about the quality of the components, time to bore all my holes, and it's not in stock (likely due to the quality issues).

Online jobsworth

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2019, 10:07 PM »
@Peter Parfitt

Anyone with rulers which are faulty should contact Axminster Customer Services. But do make a top with the system and check that it works as a very minor variation between a pair of rulers may not be an issue.

Always contact Axminster Customer Services first if you have any problems. They manufacture and distribute the kit and I am unable to help other than provide the guidance that I have given above.

Peter

Peter,

I think you need a hotdog with lots of mustard

Offline box185

  • Posts: 59
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2019, 11:11 PM »
@Bernmc - Looking at your first picture, maybe it's just the camera/angle, but, some of the holes seem to be deformed (not crisp/sharp)?

I noticed the deformed holes on some of the first Parf Sticks that I received. When I checked them with gauge pins, they were good except for the hole to hole spacing. The holes in the  silk screened parts that I have do not look deformed.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 11:17 PM by box185 »

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 40
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2019, 12:11 AM »
@Bernmc - Looking at your first picture, maybe it's just the camera/angle, but, some of the holes seem to be deformed (not crisp/sharp)?

Where did you get that small dust collection hood?

I was ready to buy one of these for making three 32" x 48" tops but after reading through this thread I'm worried about the quality of the components, time to bore all my holes, and it's not in stock (likely due to the quality issues).

Mike, it's the camera angle. They are all sharper than a sharp thing on a sharp day.

I 3D-printed the dust collection hood - it works really well (PETG on a Prusa i3 Mk3): https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2952709 - 'dust' collection is essential for this process as the special forstner bit peels the MDF apart in a paper-like ribbon which quickly clogs the jig if not removed.

I believe the quality issues have been resolved and you can buy with confidence - the new parf sticks have addressed the issue I originally had. The rest of the system is fantastically well-machined. In fact, tolerances are so tight that I occasionally need to go back and introduce a bit of wobbly in the guide holes because the pins are so tight. Similarly , the dogs are a very secure fit in the finished product. And when I did have the issue originally, Axminster sorted it out without fuss.

It definitely takes time, but I think that aside from a CNC'd top, it's the most accurate way to mill something like this. I did have a pop at using a 20mm router bit, and while you might get everything square with a considerable amount of care, the holes are just too sloppy for standard bench dogs.

Offline Mario Turcot

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2019, 09:32 AM »
@Mike Goetzke

I got mine from YellowBoxshed, price is low and shipping was good. But the best is it fit like a glove on the Parf guide. i'll post a photo of mine later tonight. I also ordered a few goodies to work with MFT tops and I'm very impressed by the quality.



« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 08:47 PM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline jasen

  • Posts: 37
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2019, 06:47 PM »
If you have a 3D Printer https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2952709

Works well

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2019, 08:30 PM »
@Mario Turcot @ Mike Goetzke @jasen and All:
Not to discourage the Makers and their 3D Printers, but the rest of us may want to consider what $34.95 from  TSO’s Minnesota warehouse buys you.

Peter Parfitt explains it best:
                   https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/ujk-technology-parf-dust-port/
   
This seriously tooled, injection molded, snaps-on and stays-put Parf Dust Port from Axminster is part of the largest selection of AXMINSTER and UJK Brand products stocked in the US at TSOproducts.com
Hans and Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline jasen

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2019, 08:47 PM »
Another good option from TSO for the U.S.

Its all about options. Down under with US dollar and postage costs someone like Yellowbox shed is great for Aussies/Kiwis and another great option if you 3D Print.

OT. I want to buy $35 worth of Robertson bits (square) from Canada at a postage cost of $120CA!!

Offline Mario Turcot

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2019, 08:54 PM »
@Mario Turcot @ Mike Goetzke @jasen and All:
Not to discourage the Makers and their 3D Printers, but the rest of us may want to consider what $34.95 from  TSO’s Minnesota warehouse buys you.

Peter Parfitt explains it best:
                   https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/ujk-technology-parf-dust-port/
   
This seriously tooled, injection molded, snaps-on and stays-put Parf Dust Port from Axminster is part of the largest selection of AXMINSTER and UJK Brand products stocked in the US at TSOproducts.com
Hans and Eric

Unfortunately the Axminster dust hood was not available at the time I ordered the Parf Guide from TSO Products.  [crying]
Mario