Author Topic: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions  (Read 5295 times)

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Offline wch

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2019, 10:55 AM »
Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

I'm just using some cheap digital calipers. It reads to .01mm, but I don't know if it's really that accurate. I'm sure that, combined with my measurement method, the values I gave were not accurate to .01mm. It might be more like +/- .02 or .03mm, but I can't say for sure.

The way I measured was to put the jaws in the two holes, and while pushing the jaws together gently, and I wiggled the caliper until it settled to a minimum value.

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Offline Dick Mahany

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2019, 01:07 PM »
Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

I'm just using some cheap digital calipers. It reads to .01mm, but I don't know if it's really that accurate. I'm sure that, combined with my measurement method, the values I gave were not accurate to .01mm. It might be more like +/- .02 or .03mm, but I can't say for sure.

The way I measured was to put the jaws in the two holes, and while pushing the jaws together gently, and I wiggled the caliper until it settled to a minimum value.

Another way to measure for hole center spacing would be to put pins in the holes and measure to the outside of the dowels/pins, then subtract the diameter of one pin from the measurement.  It is likely that both the drilled holes and the ground pins/dowels are of high precision and the pin diameters are quite easy to measure.  I have found it more convenient and more repeatable to measure this way than trying to measure directly inside between two  holes.  Just a suggestion to consider.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2019, 01:25 PM »
Nobody is disputing that there has been a small number of rulers produced which were outside of tolerance but I must caution everyone about measuring techniques.

As a rule of thumb any digital device in a sensible budget range should be viewed as not accurate beyond +/- 5 of the of the final decimal point on the screen. Some can be better and the top of the range devices will be very accurate indeed.

When Axminster agreed to take on the various new "Parf" products I insisted that they had the measuring equipment necessary to do their QA. In order to measure the size and spacing of the holes on the rulers they have purchased a machine for that task alone. It cost over £25,000 and there are about another £10,000 of precision reference blocks, probes and so on to make the whole thing work. Also, it is used in a temperature controlled area and items introduced to that area have to be given time to adjust to that temperature.

So, digital kit in the sub £1,000 range should always be used with the final digit to the right of the decimal point as a rounding mechanism for the digit to the left. That means that 1.76 should be read as 1.8 and 0.7182 should be read as 0.718.

Peter

Offline box185

  • Posts: 31
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2019, 02:11 PM »
I spoke to one of the machinists where I work and asked him how to measure the distance between holes spaced on 96 mm centers. He suggested a technique, but also cautioned me to consider the instrument that I am using to measure with.

When I started, I was not certain that I would accomplish anything. That changed when I was able to measure the distance between one hole pair, lock the dial calipers so they could not move, and then proceed to the adjacent hole pair.

I absolutely question the precision of my measurements, but I do not question the fact that I could visibly see the difference when I placed the locked dial calipers in an adjacent hole pair (0.006 to 0.008 inch is visible). When I moved on to the next hole pair, the calipers fell into position. I understood that a pattern existed as I moved down the rule - adjacent hole pairs were different, but the hole pair next to the adjacent hole pair was nearly identical.

I understand the difficulty in making accurate and precise tools, the accumulated errors are always a problem. What tolerance is the hole pattern of this tool designed and tested to?

Measurements aside - I really like the Parf Guide System, but I started questioning my experience when I read the the initial post.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 02:15 PM by box185 »

Offline box185

  • Posts: 31
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2019, 02:24 PM »
When Axminster agreed to take on the various new "Parf" products I insisted that they had the measuring equipment necessary to do their QA. In order to measure the size and spacing of the holes on the rulers they have purchased a machine for that task alone. It cost over £25,000 and there are about another £10,000 of precision reference blocks, probes and so on to make the whole thing work. Also, it is used in a temperature controlled area and items introduced to that area have to be given time to adjust to that temperature.

In addition to having the equipment, they should also have agreed to use the equipment; loop-holes are everywhere. My dial calipers were significantly less than £25,000. Purchased back in 1985, I think I paid $170 and they weren't even digital.


Offline Morse

  • Posts: 2
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2019, 03:55 PM »
I own both the MK1 and MK2 versions of the Parf Guide System. I'm just wondering if what I have observed is acceptable. 

First I place a MK1 and MK2 stick, back to back ( one on top the other) and insert one of the new MK 2 pins through both sticks from the MK 2 side.  I insert the MK 2 pin until the MK 2 pin shoulder passes thru the MK 2 stick and rests on the back of the MK 1 stick.




The second image shows that when I go to the opposite end of the overlaid sticks, I am not able to fully insert a MK 2 pin through both sticks to the point the MK 2 pin shoulder passes thru through the MK 2 stick and touches the underlying MK 1 stick. 

If the MK 1 and MK 2 holes spacing were the same I would expect to be able to line up the pin on both ends at the same time.

I'm hoping what I've described is nothing to worry about.  I have communicated this with Axminster and their solution is for me to return the MK 2 System (using their pre paid label).

I'd really like to keep the MK 2 System. Maybe what I've described is not important  Or maybe I just need new MK 2 sticks which I'm not sure they offer.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I order frequently from Axminster and their shipping times and prices are not out of line. For me usually quicker than an East Coast US order.  I am in California

Offline Morse

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2019, 04:02 PM »
I see I attached same image twice I will try again with first image

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2019, 11:32 PM »
Anyone with rulers which are faulty should contact Axminster Customer Services. But do make a top with the system and check that it works as a very minor variation between a pair of rulers may not be an issue.

Always contact Axminster Customer Services first if you have any problems. They manufacture and distribute the kit and I am unable to help other than provide the guidance that I have given above.

Peter

Offline box185

  • Posts: 31
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2019, 06:16 AM »
Great news . . . Axminster has responded as shown below.

"A new set of rules have been checked with the correct hole spacings and we have arranged to dispatch them later today.

We would like to pass our thanks to you with regard to the feedback and we have changed our manufacturing procedure to accommodate the change.

Regards

Kevin King
Specialist Sales Advisor"

As I mentioned earlier, I really do like the Parf Guide System. I would encourage anyone interested in making their own MFT/3 to use Peter Parfitt's PGS and his technique. The man is a wizard and makes wonderful video for YouTube - great teacher.

I also appreciate the open forum available on the FOG for discussing issues that people have with their woodworking related tools.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2019, 10:50 AM »
Excellent and many thanks for the kind words.

Peter

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 31
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2019, 10:44 PM »
Had a similar mail from Axminster today- They’re putting a new set of rulers in an order I have waiting for dispatch.

Very happy with their service - things go wrong occasionally, and it’s the way a company deals with an error that really sets the good ones apart.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 97
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2019, 12:39 AM »
I’m very happy to see a great resolution on this. Peter, you have an amazing mind. Thank you for your work and the grace with which you handle yourself.

Offline casper

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2019, 08:13 AM »
I have just been told by email that the Mk2 system will be available for retail sale until next spring which seems rather vague.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2019, 08:37 AM »
I have just been told by email that the Mk2 system will be available for retail sale until next spring which seems rather vague.

I suspect that bulk export to dealers will only come when Axminster can gear up to the high demand. They have sold out 2 or 3 times since the launch and despite this the demand for the original system remains high.

Peter