Author Topic: Parf Guide System Review  (Read 23002 times)

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Offline DiscoStu

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Parf Guide System Review
« on: March 02, 2017, 12:47 PM »
I bought a Parf Guide System as soon as it was announced last year and today I finally got round to opening the packet!

I thought I'd share my thoughts on it.

For those that don't know it's a system for creating 20mm holes in a perfectly square pattern in wood. This is ideally used with parf dogs to create cutting tables for use with track saws (like the Festool MFT).



Inside the package you get:

2 x 1m rules with pre drilled 3mm holes
3 x 3mm pins
1 x 20mm forstner style bit (although it's specific to this set)
1 x 3mm drill bit
1 x 3mm drill guide
1 x 20mm drill guide (The big orange thing)
1 user guide





So my first thoughts are that it is a well made high quality precision tool. It oozes quality and tight tolerances. The supplied manual is clear, detailed and is a world apart from most of the manuals we see, although it's on a par with other manuals I've seen from UJK.



It's easy to set it up and to get you first row of 3mm holes. The guide for the 3mm hole helps keep the drill vertical. I had an old piece of 18mm MRMDF lying about so I used this for my test. I clamped a parf stick (Steel ruler with pre drilled holes) down to the MDF and drilled my first 3mm holes. I then swung it around roughly 90 degrees and using the 3/4/5 method set it accurately to a right angle (the manual clearly explains this so I'm not going into detail here). Once this was set I could do a set of vertical 3mm holes and then I repeated for the other side and top edge. I finally finished with another vertical set of holes in roughly the middle.

So 3mm holes all done I moved onto the 20mm holes. You use the pins and guide block to line up the 20mm cutter and away you go. I found that my 20mm cutter got clogged pretty quickly but my MDF was a bit old and going "furry". Once you've done a series of 20mm holes you have to use parf dogs to position the block as the points where the 3mm alignment holes were have become 20mm holes. You need to be aware that the 20mm parf dogs don't come with the system. Not that this is an issue as you'll be buying these to use with it anyway. For me it was a bonus as I already had parf dogs so I didn't feel like I was paying for them twice.

I did a 600 x 1000 sheet of MDF from start to finish in about an hour having never use the system before. I found the accuracy was excellent. The only downside was that the cutter kept clogging although this is likely to be the MDF. I did find that having a drill with removable chuck was incredibly useful although only my CXS has that feature and it's not the most powerful of drills.



After completing all of my holes I did a very quick check for square with a rail and it was spot on.






This was just a quick test to see how I got on with it and if it was accurate and it seems to be spot on.

I found the 20mm holes a bit of a pain but I am hopefully it's just old MDF stock.

I am intending to build a bench with this sort of top so it should be good for that.

I'd love to see a router version as I think that could be excellent.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline andygiddings

  • Posts: 22
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2017, 01:57 PM »
DiscoStu, your experience with the system matches mine - although I didn't have an issue with the 20mm bit clogging. Did you use a vac when drilling the holes? Really helps keep it clean. I've just finished a 6x3ft bench with 128 holes (8 x 16 matrix) - took a while but dead accurate throughout. I also made the mistake of applying finish after drilling the holes - something to avoid at all costs in the future :-(

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 576
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2017, 03:25 PM »
Looking forward to getting mine when Lee Valley gets their next batch! 
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 247
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 05:25 PM »
DiscoStu, your experience with the system matches mine - although I didn't have an issue with the 20mm bit clogging. Did you use a vac when drilling the holes? Really helps keep it clean. I've just finished a 6x3ft bench with 128 holes (8 x 16 matrix) - took a while but dead accurate throughout. I also made the mistake of applying finish after drilling the holes - something to avoid at all costs in the future :-(

This is a DIY shoe that allows for convenient chip collection.

Also, very important.... Oil the shaft of the bit, use real oil not WD-40...


Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline DiscoStu

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2017, 05:29 PM »
I did use oil as Peter mentioned that. I didn't use a vac but will do in my "real" top.


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Offline andygiddings

  • Posts: 22
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2017, 12:24 AM »
Just as an aside to those in the US buying this system - I found it slightly cheaper to buy and ship from the UK supplier to TX, largely due to the exchange rate. Also the 20mm bit that came with mine was a Centrotec bit which makes the process slightly easier
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:28 AM by andygiddings »

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2017, 01:09 AM »
Just as an aside to those in the US buying this system - I found it slightly cheaper to buy and ship from the UK supplier to TX, largely due to the exchange rate. Also the 20mm bit that came with mine was a Centrotec bit which makes the process slightly easier

Just to help with people's expectation management...

The 20 mm cutter with the Centrotec end is more expensive and is sold as an individual item (that is as an extra). There were about a dozen sent out to customers as part of a full PGS in error.

The new cutter has not been made part of the full PGS kit at this stage because Axminster do not wish to raise the price of the PGS.

I have asked them to keep this under review.

Peter

Offline hayaku

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2017, 01:45 AM »
Looking forward to getting mine when Lee Valley gets their next batch!

wow.. didn't know lee valley sold them!

i bought mine from axminster and had them imported last year when these were first released.  mine are still in the tube and i haven't used them yet  :o

Offline EdK2676

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 12:31 PM »
Just as an aside to those in the US buying this system - I found it slightly cheaper to buy and ship from the UK supplier to TX, largely due to the exchange rate. Also the 20mm bit that came with mine was a Centrotec bit which makes the process slightly easier

Andy, I have a quote into Axminster now to get the PGS sent to me in Ohio.  The quote mentions an item DAP (Delivery at Place). It appears to be some sort of COD for duties and taxes.  I have never ordered from overseas before and don't really know if that applies to me.  The Axminster person who quoted it said it may be an additional 30 GBP but also doesn't know for certain if I will need to pay it in addition the quoted shipping fee.  I don't want to order not knowing if I will be charged an additional fee especially not knowing the exact amount.  If there is this additional fee, it will put the cost over the top and not make it cost effective to purchase from Axminster.  Can you tell me if you were charged the quoted price without any additional fees?  Any feedback or help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Ed

Offline andygiddings

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 01:23 PM »
Ed, no additional charges were levied on me - I had the same terminology in my order and it was delivered in early Feb this year. If they were going to make any charges after delivery I'm reasonably sure they would have done so by now. Total shipping for mine was 35 UK Pounds. I ordered two sets of Parf Dogs at the same time so your charges may be different

Offline EdK2676

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 01:44 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply!  Good to hear on no additional charges.  It sounds like you have the same order as mine and the shipping (carriage) is also the same amount.  Also good to hear they are consistent.

Curious, how long did it take to arrive?

Thanks again,
Ed

Offline andygiddings

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2017, 07:22 PM »
Ed, it was eight days from ship to receipt

Offline craigcm

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2017, 09:54 AM »
I also had a great experience with this product. 

I bought a few of the short and the long bench dogs too.  Now I want more of each.  Super useful.

I have been thinking for several years about making a workbench.  I always considered getting a traditional woodworking bench, beefy, vices on the front and the end, possibly drawers beneath. 

But the MFT stopped me in my tracks. 

Now that I've got the ability to make my own MFT, I have been thinking about making a hybrid traditional/MFT workbench. 

I love the Festool clamping elements. 

Does anybody know the maximum thickness that a bench top can be to allow the clamping elements usable? 

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 10:21 AM »
Hi Everyone

it is really important to use a dust extractor when drilling the 20 mm holes as cutting MDF (especially poorer grades) produces a lot of waste that clogs the cutter leading to an inaccurate cut, overheating and potential damage to the cutter.

I appreciate that some users have produced their own Extractor Port accessories to make it easier to use. I have been playing with several designs over the last few weeks and have now settled on what I think is the easiest to make yet most practical to use. Here is a picture of the finished prototype:

259688-0

The gadget can be attached in either 20 mm drilling position and it has a hose opening on both sides so it will suit both right and left handed users. It fits snugly on the 20 mm Guide Block and helps the user keep the Guide Block pushed flat on the bench top.

I am in the process of a making the video which I expect to be able to release within the next 5 days. The plans will be available once the video is live. It would take the average woodworker about an hour to make with an additional allowance for gluing time. It consists of 5 pieces of wood all of which require some form of 30 degree cut. Tools required are a 22 mm Forstner (but larger would do), a 35 mm Forstner (for a Festool 27 mm hose fit) and a screwdriver.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 10:25 AM by Peter Parfitt »

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 10:43 AM »
I also had a great experience with this product. 
...
I love the Festool clamping elements. 

Does anybody know the maximum thickness that a bench top can be to allow the clamping elements usable?

Matches my experience so far.

I'm in the process of making a 28" x 72" (or so) bench that is about 1.5" thick.  I've drilled it with the parf guide system, which was accurate within any measure that I could make = plenty accurate for woodworking.

Any kind of dog (parf, surface, low profile fences, etc) works just fine, of course.

But 1.5" is way too thick for the through clamps (quick clamps and screw clamps).  I'm experimenting with ways to undercut the holes so that they'll work, but don't have a good solution for that yet.  My only solution is to grind off the nub that holds the clamp heads on so that I can insert the shafts into the holes from below.

Clamping elements can be used without the knobs, but of course that means that the clamps will lift a bit more.  My next challenge is to see if I can make some longer knobs that will work.

At any rate, for full MFT type functionality in a large workbench top, I think I would recommend a 3/4" MDF (better quality like Medite) top with a torsion box.  I'll be trying that sometime this year, I hope.

Note that Veritas has started making more bench accessories with 20mm posts, so I'm considering some of those.  In particular, they have a bench clamp that inserts and locks into a 20mm hole, and I think I'll use that for vertical clamping on the front of the bench.


Offline andygiddings

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2017, 11:18 AM »
In terms of max thickness, as noted, 3/4 inch is ideal otherwise there can be issues with clamps. The other point I'd make if you go for a torsion box assembly is watch out for your internal height between top and bottom. I made mine 3 inches between faces and was glad/lucky I didn't go thinner, otherwise the Festool clamps wouldn't insert due to the lower arm length.

Attached are a couple of photos of my MFT hybrid workbench. The frame is an off the shelf Kreg table which I can't recommend highly enough - very strong, flat and stable. I use a sheet of hardboard when I'm gluing up/assembling/finishing and remove it for other tasks. I used Hard Maple as a facing for the torsion box, otherwise the MDF side would get wrecked fairly quickly. Size is the same as Harvey's - 28x72.

Offline promark747

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2017, 12:02 PM »


But 1.5" is way too thick for the through clamps (quick clamps and screw clamps).  I'm experimenting with ways to undercut the holes so that they'll work, but don't have a good solution for that yet.  My only solution is to grind off the nub that holds the clamp heads on so that I can insert the shafts into the holes from below.

Clamping elements can be used without the knobs, but of course that means that the clamps will lift a bit more.  My next challenge is to see if I can make some longer knobs that will work.


I filed off the nubs (pretty easy), and then drilled a hole near the nub to accept a nylon screw and nut (I thought about tapping but didn't have a suitable tap).  Now, when I need to use any of my Festool clamps, I can separate the two parts and insert one half from the bottom and reattach the other part from the top.  It takes a few seconds but works great.

The knobs for the clamping elements can easily be lengthened by removing the cap (there is a thin slit to insert a small screwdriver and pry open) and changing out the hex bolt for a longer one.  I've even used the knobs with 5/6-18 bolts for other applications where a 5/16-18 bolt is required (e.g., Kreg clamps).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 12:04 PM by promark747 »

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2017, 05:47 AM »
Hi Everyone,

The video of the making of the Dust Port for the PGS is now live. I have put a post about it in the main PGS thread in the Sales and Dealer area but will include the link here as well:



Peter

Offline hopper

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2017, 08:15 AM »
As usual, Peter, your videos are educational, informative and enjoyable to watch.  Thanks so much for making them.  I am waiting for my Parf Guide System to be delivered when Lee Valley gets their next shipment (on or about March 18). Thanks again.

Paul

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2017, 08:58 AM »
As usual, Peter, your videos are educational, informative and enjoyable to watch.  Thanks so much for making them.  I am waiting for my Parf Guide System to be delivered when Lee Valley gets their next shipment (on or about March 18). Thanks again.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Many thanks.

I am sorry that you are having to wait for your PGS - that is the cost of success I suppose. I know that Lee Valley are doing their best to get new stock in as fast as they can. Axminster have stepped up their manufacturing capability and the PGS effort is part of an additional £1m manufacturing investment.

Have a good weekend.

Peter

Offline DiscoStu

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2017, 02:05 PM »
I've not test my dust extraction as yet but here are a couple of photos of mine:




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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2017, 03:38 PM »
Hi Stuart,

That looks like it should work okay. I assume that on the side that we cannot see there are gaps for the air to flow in?

Peter

Offline DiscoStu

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2017, 04:08 PM »
Hi Peter, no not currently. I did think about it but thought I'd see how it goes without. I would assume it will need some holes to clear debris until the hole is drilled through at which point there will be airflow.

I might get chance to have a play tomorrow.


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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2017, 04:19 PM »
I think that you might need a hole on the far side to get some air flow before the 20 mm cutter breaks through. Otherwise the debris will build up around the cutter and no air can flow past it as there is nowhere for the air to get into the cutting chamber.

Peter

Offline andygiddings

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2017, 11:16 PM »
What I did with mine for dust collection was hold the end of the hose next to the jig. Once the jig is in place, it's a one handed operation to cut the 20mm hole which leaves the other hand free to hold the hose. Peter, as I recall, this is also what you did in one of your Parf Guide videos?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2017, 02:46 AM »
What I did with mine for dust collection was hold the end of the hose next to the jig. Once the jig is in place, it's a one handed operation to cut the 20mm hole which leaves the other hand free to hold the hose. Peter, as I recall, this is also what you did in one of your Parf Guide videos?

Yes, it is the method that I have used (and shown) in all of my work with the PGS. From now on I will use this simple home made accessory as it makes the process even easier.

Peter

Offline squarecut

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2017, 04:24 PM »
Here is my entry for PGS dust collection.
I had been working on this prior to @DiscoStu posting his version - seems we both are of the same mind.
I have tested it and it works flawlessly. I have named it the PGS Dust Extraction Shoe (just to be different).
I had some orange paint available so I thought why not give it some color - too bad it is not a good match to UJK Technology orange.
Largest private sawdust producer in Huntington NY

Offline Z48LT1

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2017, 04:59 PM »
V. interesting.

A pic of the underside?

Cheers - Gary
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 06:41 PM by Z48LT1 »

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2017, 05:11 PM »
Here is my entry for PGS dust collection.
I had been working on this prior to @DiscoStu posting his version - seems we both are of the same mind.
I have tested it and it works flawlessly. I have named it the PGS Dust Extraction Shoe (just to be different).
I had some orange paint available so I thought why not give it some color - too bad it is not a good match to UJK Technology orange.

Simply brilliant and I am sure that some of the right colour orange could be found for this.

Peter

Offline squarecut

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2017, 07:21 PM »
@Z48LT1
As requested - photo of underside
Largest private sawdust producer in Huntington NY

Offline DiscoStu

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2017, 03:53 AM »
Love it, much tidier than mine. I've been waiting to visit Halfords to get some metallic orange so very much on the same page.


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Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2017, 06:18 AM »
@Z48LT1
As requested - photo of underside

The only question for @squarecut is...

Does the dust extraction work well enough as it is split between both holes at the same time - so, presumably, that is half the suck ?

Peter

Offline DiscoStu

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2017, 04:15 PM »
I guess there is always a solution to that in the form of a thing called a parf dog! :-)


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Offline squarecut

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2017, 05:09 PM »
@Peter Parfitt
Your observation about possible 50% loss of suction via the second chamber orifices being open led me to perform a test both ways.
With both chambers open there was a slight loss of suction, however drill shavings were completely removed from the work surface.
With the unused chamber sealed off with tape a stronger pull of air could be felt at the infeed air opening. Obviously, this was not a scientific test with instrumentation. To err on the safe side & eliminate the possibility of unremoved debris fouling the 20 mm boring bit, I decided to augment my DES (Dust Extraction Shoe) with a 90 degree closure segment affixed with rare earth magnets.
Many thanks for your alerting me to the possibility of reduced suction. With your single chamber device, it precluded the loss of suction issue. You obviously had that in mind when designing your unit. See attached photos.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 12:07 AM by squarecut »
Largest private sawdust producer in Huntington NY

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2017, 12:20 AM »
@Peter Parfitt
Your observation about possible 50% loss of suction via the second chamber orifices being open led me to perform a test both ways.
With both chambers open there was a slight loss of suction, however drill shavings were completely removed from the work surface.
With the unused chamber sealed off with tape a stronger pull of air could be felt at the infeed air opening. Obviously, this was not a scientific test with instrumentation. To err on the safe side & eliminate the possibility of unremoved debris fouling the 20 mm boring bit, I decided to augment my DES (Dust Extraction Shoe) with a 90 degree closure segment affixed with rare earth magnets.
Many thanks for your alerting me to the possibility of reduced suction. With your single chamber device, it precluded the loss of suction issue. You obviously had that in mind when designing your unit. See attached photos.

Well done.

If you look carefully at the start of my video for the dust port you will see a clear piece of Perspex which I bent to almost exactly the shape of the top of your dust port. It was part of one of my early efforts and was going to be mentioned but it had to be removed to cut the length of the video down. That design had two places for the hose to be connected and would have had a central divider inside so that the whole of the vacuum was applied to the particular port needed.

I had to do a double bend in the Perspex in order to get the height to allow the sloping face to be long enough to have the 35 mm holes in it for the hose end. I decided it was too difficult for people to make as it needed a hot air gun and some forming tools.

I like your finished design.

Peter

Offline squarecut

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2017, 06:19 PM »
I am presently working on a portable dual track cutting station & a 3 section clamping/assembly table which when completed will have me drilling a total of over 275 20mm holes. I have completed the dual track station & currently working on the assembly table. My constant companion Arthur-Itus is rearing his ugly head when I hold the 3mm guide bushing with two fingers while drilling holes. So I came up with a bushing holder to overcome the issue. It occurred to me that others out in FOG land may be experiencing the same problem so here are a few photos.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 07:40 PM by squarecut »
Largest private sawdust producer in Huntington NY

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2017, 01:39 AM »
Arthur visits me most days as well !

I really like that idea. May I use a picture of it in a video at some time please? If so, please PM me your email address and what name I can use for you.

Cheers.

Peter

Offline squarecut

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2017, 08:20 PM »
While working on my portable cutting station I realized that I wanted to add a 20mm hole to a row but had neglected to drill the requisite 3mm hole in that end column. Annoyed that I had not heeded the advice of @Peter Parfitt regarding carefully mapping out the 3mm hole pattern to allow for future additional 20mm holes, I set about figuring out a way to achieve the extra 20mm hole.

I came up with what I have named the "Oops Stick". I made it out of a 2mm thick piece of hard maple, 34mm wide by 635mm in length. Using a Parf stick I drilled seven 3mm holes & then with the guide block, enlarged four holes to 20mm and now I am able to add additional 3mm holes to any row of 20mm holes that I neglected to plan out properly. A proper "Oops Stick" should be made of steel for endurance as this one made of maple will have a relatively short life.

This might prove to be a valid accessory to the Parf Guide System that Axminster might consider. It would not require any engraved measurement scales on it and quite possibly would be a welcome addition to users of the PGS as I am positive I am not the only PGS user who has said "Oops" when producing their creation.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:25 PM by squarecut »
Largest private sawdust producer in Huntington NY

Offline live4ever

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2017, 10:02 PM »
Very clever and I'm sure many of us will benefit from this idea!  Failing to plan ahead sounds right up my alley.

On another note, might I suggest renaming the "Oops Stick" to "Barf Stick?"  (Sorry Peter, we're not known for our clever wit this side of the pond...mainly crude low-hanging fruit is our style).   [embarassed]
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2017, 10:44 PM »
While working on my portable cutting station I realized that I wanted to add a 20mm hole to a row but had neglected to drill the requisite 3mm hole in that end column. Annoyed that I had not heeded the advice of @Peter Parfitt regarding carefully mapping out the 3mm hole pattern to allow for future additional 20mm holes, I set about figuring out a way to achieve the extra 20mm hole.

I came up with what I have named the "Oops Stick". I made it out of a 2mm thick piece of hard maple, 34mm wide by 635mm in length. Using a Parf stick I drilled seven 3mm holes & then with the guide block, enlarged four holes to 20mm and now I am able to add additional 3mm holes to any row of 20mm holes that I neglected to plan out properly. A proper "Oops Stick" should be made of steel for endurance as this one made of maple will have a relatively short life.

This might prove to be a valid accessory to the Parf Guide System that Axminster might consider. It would not require any engraved measurement scales on it and quite possibly would be a welcome addition to users of the PGS as I am positive I am not the only PGS user who has said "Oops" when producing their creation.

@Peter Parfitt, is the 3mm bushing exactly 20mm on the small diameter end?  If so, you could just drill all 7 holes a 20mm and put in the 3mm bushing.  That way there would be no 3mm holes to wear out.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2017, 11:16 PM »
@squarecut

Nice idea - my only worry about all additional bits of kit or accessories is whether the accuracy be maintained. I will do some math on it.

@HarveyWildes

Yes, the 3 mm Guide should fit snugly in a 20 mm hole or a 25 mm hole depending on the way around. It has many uses, some of which we have not discovered yet !

Peter
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 02:20 PM by Peter Parfitt »

Offline Rob-GB

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2017, 10:29 AM »
What a great thread. [thumbs up] Loads of ideas being bounced around which is great for me as I just picked up the jig and some dogs from my (almost) local Axminster store.  [big grin]
First job is to replace my warped MFT top, it got damp while on a job and no one knows how (odd that one) so a moisture resistant top is on the agenda with some sort of sealer coat.

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2017, 11:25 AM »
What a great thread. [thumbs up] Loads of ideas being bounced around which is great for me as I just picked up the jig and some dogs from my (almost) local Axminster store.  [big grin]
First job is to replace my warped MFT top, it got damp while on a job and no one knows how (odd that one) so a moisture resistant top is on the agenda with some sort of sealer coat.

Rob.

Hi Rob

A quick tip - put the sealer on before you start drilling the holes as the addition of sealer can make the material expand slightly in the holes. You can use almost anything to seal the MDF - water based varnish is good, polyurethane or even Osmo.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline Rob-GB

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2017, 12:01 PM »
A quick tip - put the sealer on before you start drilling the holes as the addition of sealer can make the material expand slightly in the holes. You can use almost anything to seal the MDF - water based varnish is good, polyurethane or even Osmo.

Good luck.

Peter

Thanks Peter, I have a ready source for Osmo worktop oil (having just fitted a kitchen for a friend who has a whole tin spare  [big grin] and the advice on coating pre-drilling is well worth mentioning...I was thinking along the same lines but wondered how much it might affect MRMDF (the Medite brand is my preferred choice, most of the others I have experienced are made to a price not a standard).

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline MacMitch

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2017, 02:34 PM »
1)Peter has a YoutTube video which I interpret to mean, one can drill a 20mm approximately 1” deep hole with the stock bit that comes with the Parf Guide System. The resulting 1” deep hole may then be used, as a guide, to “carefully” drill deeper holes in thicker workbenches. I have plans to make a 3” thick workbench top from German Beech. I am wondering if the described system is a reasonable approach to drilling 20mm dog holes in that thick a hardwood bench?

2)Lee Valley sells a 20mm bit that is 6” long, "with 3 5/8” of fluting”. The bit is designed to be used with a 20mm Dog Hole Bushing LV sells. This is about the only 20mm bit I am finding on line that I believe will drill a 3” deep, 20mm dog hole. According to the LV description the bit will only drill through 2” thick tops in conjunction with the bushing, which is typically installed in 1.5x ? lumber. I guess if I use it in the 1” deep 20mm hole made by the Parf bit, without the Bushing Guide, it might work? I know it want work in the Parf bushing. My favorite large bits turn out to be metric although they are marked in inches, made by Wood Owl (Ultra Smooth Tri Cuts). However, Wood Owl apparently makes 19 and 21mm bits, 7.5” long but not a 20mm. I am wondering if the LV bit, or some other bit I have yet to discover, will drill through the additional space below the 1” 20mm hole the Parf system makes?

3)Peter uses Medite Smartply, a moisture resistant MDF, to make his table tops. I have a height adjustable table/workbench I am working on that I may use a similar material on. My search for Medite Smartply seems to suggest that this product is only offered in European countries. I was impressed with the fact that drilling this material in Peter’s videos was producing actual shavings vs dust that got airborne. I am wondering if there is a similar product people use here in the US use to achieve similar results?

4)I already  own Veritas: Surface Clamp, Hold Down, Bench Anchors, Planing Stops, Bench Dogs, Wonder Dog. I also own a Festool table, Festool saws, Festool clamps...Will the LV items work in the slightly larger 20mm holes or do I need to drill holes for both size dogs?

Offline squarecut

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2017, 04:12 PM »
@MacMitch
I am currently using Medex with my PGS projects, it produces actual shavings when drilling holes with the PGS boring bit. It is also moisture resistant.
Here is a link to my local suppliers info page - http://www.roberts-plywood.com/mdf-nauf-fsc-certified.html
Largest private sawdust producer in Huntington NY

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2017, 05:09 PM »
Hi Everyone

it is really important to use a dust extractor when drilling the 20 mm holes as cutting MDF (especially poorer grades) produces a lot of waste that clogs the cutter leading to an inaccurate cut, overheating and potential damage to the cutter.

I appreciate that some users have produced their own Extractor Port accessories to make it easier to use. I have been playing with several designs over the last few weeks and have now settled on what I think is the easiest to make yet most practical to use. Here is a picture of the finished prototype:

(Attachment Link)

The gadget can be attached in either 20 mm drilling position and it has a hose opening on both sides so it will suit both right and left handed users. It fits snugly on the 20 mm Guide Block and helps the user keep the Guide Block pushed flat on the bench top.

I am in the process of a making the video which I expect to be able to release within the next 5 days. The plans will be available once the video is live. It would take the average woodworker about an hour to make with an additional allowance for gluing time. It consists of 5 pieces of wood all of which require some form of 30 degree cut. Tools required are a 22 mm Forstner (but larger would do), a 35 mm Forstner (for a Festool 27 mm hose fit) and a screwdriver.

Peter

Whoa, hold the phone, you expect me to use a hand tool like a screwdriver
when I could use a nice Festool drill to drive those screws?  [big grin]

Seriously, I love your chip collector and think it's great. Hope to see the video soon.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline MacMitch

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2017, 10:49 AM »
Thanks for the information squarecut. Trying to locate one near me from the link you provided.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2017, 07:19 PM »
Made Peters' dust collection port for my PGS yesterday.

Turned out OK. I went to use the 35mm bit to drill out the bit of wood from the top piece that partially blocks the side ports and got to thinking there is not much there for the bit to work on. I decided using the jig saw might be easier so that's what I did. It was no trouble with the dust port clamped in the Workmate placing the face to be cut from flush with the top of the Workmate so I had plenty of support for the jigsaw.

-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2017, 02:35 AM »
Hi Bob

Looks good. Getting the dust and chippings vacuumed away whilst drilling the 20 mm holes is essential as it speeds up the rate of cutting and helps to keep the cutter working efficiently.

Peter

Offline greymann

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2017, 09:52 AM »
When i finally got around to replacing my tabletop on my 80/20 work station, I had the same issues as squarecut.  However when I laid out the pieces, I found a solution for me at least, a lot closer as you can see below.




Insert the drill guide very carefully as you will find it the very tight fit necessary to assure the guide stays vertical while drilling.



This might not work for everyone but as far as I am concerned it was fantastic.  To say that I am pleased with the result would be a gross understatement.



Dick Perry
The difference between theory and practice in practice is greater than the difference between theory and practice in theory.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2017, 07:21 AM »
When i finally got around to replacing my tabletop on my 80/20 work station, I had the same issues as squarecut.  However when I laid out the pieces, I found a solution for me at least, a lot closer as you can see below.

Insert the drill guide very carefully as you will find it the very tight fit necessary to assure the guide stays vertical while drilling.

This might not work for everyone but as far as I am concerned it was fantastic.  To say that I am pleased with the result would be a gross understatement.
Dick Perry

Hi Dick,

The 3 mm drill guide was designed to have more than one purpose in life.

Nice solution.

Peter

Offline AndremG7

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2017, 01:23 PM »
Hi All,

Quick PGS review and then a question/suggestion.

I've had my PGS for about a year now and thoroughly enjoyed working with it to create a custom MFT-like top to fit over my portable table saw. With a little bit of geometry (thank you Mr. Pythagoras), it makes the initial layout of a squared system so much easier than rulers and tick marks. It's not perfect, of course, and I echo some of the comments about keeping "in the moment" during repetitive processes and fussing with the 20-mm cutter. Overall, it's an excellent product and I'm sure that Peter is constantly "noodling" over improvements and tweaks (e.g., the dust hub). However, for those without access to the LR32 system the PGS can't be beaten. Keep up the great work, Peter!

Recently, I was able to purchase the LR32 system and have used it to make shelf/slide mounting holes in cabinetry.  I was so impressed with the line boring capabilities of the system that it made me wondered if there was a way to marry the PGS and LR32 approaches. Something like ... layout the 3-mm holes for parallel and square outside "columns" using the PGS rules to ensure basic geometry and then come back through with a 20-mm router bit in the LR32 to create the final product. I'm sure that someone else has thought of this before I. I was going to use the LR32 to fill in some 20-mm in my MFT that I left as 3-mm pilots, but I can't think of a simple approach to lock the LR32 system to the grid of 3-mm holes.

The first stage of the PGS results a grid of 3-mm holes which are easily verifiable to be square and accurate. The LR32 systems needs to lock-in in two directions (along the rail and perpendicular to the rail). Since the holey rail has a series of 5-mm holes that index the router plate along the rail, my first thought was to use 3-mm to 5-mm round shelf pins to align the rail to the grid. But the hole in the rail are offset to the centerline of the router so that the 20-mm grid would be shifted in relation to the rail edge. The LR32 rail offset bars have 5-mm pins that can be set to be aligned with the router centerline (e.g., as done during calibration), but 5-mm pins do not fit in 3-mm holes and there needs to be a way to lock-in the other direction (along the rail).

I think that with a little machining (e.g., 3-mm pins for the rail offset bars and 3-mm to 5-mm conversion pins for the rail itself), there could be a huge advantage to blending the layout strength of the PGS with the boring power of the LR32. Is there something (like a product idea) here? Or am I way off base? Happy to give away "idea" credits to someone with better machining capabilities in exchange for the final product. 

Offline foggyideas

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2017, 05:26 AM »
Hi Bob

Looks good. Getting the dust and chippings vacuumed away whilst drilling the 20 mm holes is essential as it speeds up the rate of cutting and helps to keep the cutter working efficiently.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Your Parf Guide System is very handy. Hope to see a version for plunge routers.

Meanwhile testing some ideas to hold the vacuum hose in place as well as storage for the three registration pins and the drilling block -- which does double-duty here to reduce suction loss from the bushing on the side not being used to bore. Closing off the rectangular channel would also help.

Thank you.

John

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2017, 06:30 AM »
@AndremG7 wrote:  "...my first thought was to use 3-mm to 5-mm round shelf pins to align the rail to the grid..."

I thought the 5mm rail holes were slightly oblong to allow the pin in the router base plate to
enter/exit easily when boring shelf pin holes. This slight increase along the one axis could
affect your alignment unless I am not understanding how you intend to implement your plan.
I am just guessing but I thought someone had mentioned in another thread a couple months
ago that the holes were actually 5x7 mm slot and not a true 5 mm circular hole.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline mhmcgrath

  • Posts: 8
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2017, 11:37 PM »
Hi All,

Quick PGS review and then a question/suggestion.

I've had my PGS for about a year now and thoroughly enjoyed working with it to create a custom MFT-like top to fit over my portable table saw. With a little bit of geometry (thank you Mr. Pythagoras), it makes the initial layout of a squared system so much easier than rulers and tick marks. It's not perfect, of course, and I echo some of the comments about keeping "in the moment" during repetitive processes and fussing with the 20-mm cutter. Overall, it's an excellent product and I'm sure that Peter is constantly "noodling" over improvements and tweaks (e.g., the dust hub). However, for those without access to the LR32 system the PGS can't be beaten. Keep up the great work, Peter!

Recently, I was able to purchase the LR32 system and have used it to make shelf/slide mounting holes in cabinetry.  I was so impressed with the line boring capabilities of the system that it made me wondered if there was a way to marry the PGS and LR32 approaches. Something like ... layout the 3-mm holes for parallel and square outside "columns" using the PGS rules to ensure basic geometry and then come back through with a 20-mm router bit in the LR32 to create the final product. I'm sure that someone else has thought of this before I. I was going to use the LR32 to fill in some 20-mm in my MFT that I left as 3-mm pilots, but I can't think of a simple approach to lock the LR32 system to the grid of 3-mm holes.

The first stage of the PGS results a grid of 3-mm holes which are easily verifiable to be square and accurate. The LR32 systems needs to lock-in in two directions (along the rail and perpendicular to the rail). Since the holey rail has a series of 5-mm holes that index the router plate along the rail, my first thought was to use 3-mm to 5-mm round shelf pins to align the rail to the grid. But the hole in the rail are offset to the centerline of the router so that the 20-mm grid would be shifted in relation to the rail edge. The LR32 rail offset bars have 5-mm pins that can be set to be aligned with the router centerline (e.g., as done during calibration), but 5-mm pins do not fit in 3-mm holes and there needs to be a way to lock-in the other direction (along the rail).

I think that with a little machining (e.g., 3-mm pins for the rail offset bars and 3-mm to 5-mm conversion pins for the rail itself), there could be a huge advantage to blending the layout strength of the PGS with the boring power of the LR32. Is there something (like a product idea) here? Or am I way off base? Happy to give away "idea" credits to someone with better machining capabilities in exchange for the final product.
You might want to check out this guy's approach (very meticulous!) with the LR32.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Marven

  • Posts: 16
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2017, 05:43 PM »
I just tried out the Parf guide that I ordered from Lee Valley.  It worked just like your videos Peter.  Very well made and thought out. 

I had one problem.  I had a hard time finding the correct size screwdriver for the drill stop set screw. My U.S. screwdrivers did not fit well but I got the set screw to hold for about 20 holes.  Then it came loose and I tried a smaller screwdriver.  When I cranked it down much to my surprise it twisted in the screw slot and mutilated the screw.  Much to my surprise I found out the set screw was made from plastic.  But a quick trip to Home Depot and I was able to get a steel set screw replacement and am good to go now.

Offline Marven

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2017, 07:15 PM »
well, I've discovered why a plastic set screw was provided.  a metal screw mars the 20mm shaft.  Now where can I get a plastic setscrew?

Online Bohdan

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2017, 07:20 PM »
Put a small piece of plastic or brass into the bottom of the screw hole and it will clamp the shaft and not mark it.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2017, 07:31 PM »
well, I've discovered why a plastic set screw was provided.  a metal screw mars the 20mm shaft.  Now where can I get a plastic setscrew?

https://www.mscdirect.com/industrialtools/nylon-tip-set-screw.html

Tom

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2017, 11:31 PM »
well, I've discovered why a plastic set screw was provided.  a metal screw mars the 20mm shaft.  Now where can I get a plastic setscrew?

Hi Marvin

I will pass on your experience to Axminster. I am sure that they can come with an idea.

I do not have a system with a stop collar as I had the very first set off the production line. I managed because I used the Festool removable chuck but not everyone has that luxury.

Many thanks - I will keep an eye on this and report back as soon as I can.

Peter

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Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2017, 11:44 PM »
well, I've discovered why a plastic set screw was provided.  a metal screw mars the 20mm shaft.  Now where can I get a plastic setscrew?

Would a brass set screw do better than nylon/plastic?  I've noticed that Laguna uses a brass tip on the screw that locks down the 14/12 fence, and Veritas seems to uses a lot of brass when they are locking down plane settings.

Online Bohdan

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2017, 12:05 AM »
Brass would be the best as it can lock down harder and still not mark the steel.

Offline Svar

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2017, 12:26 AM »
Brass would be the best as it can lock down harder and still not mark the steel.
The best would be a split collar clamp. Something like this:
https://m.mscdirect.com/mobileweb/product_detail?id=35460062&hasRestrictedParts=false

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 606
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2017, 03:00 AM »
Brass would be the best as it can lock down harder and still not mark the steel.
The best would be a split collar clamp. Something like this:
https://m.mscdirect.com/mobileweb/product_detail?id=35460062&hasRestrictedParts=false

I like that one.  I might even have to get one (or two).  What's the diameter of the bit?

Offline DB10

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2017, 05:17 AM »
My UJK stop collar came supplied with a hex head metal screw which is tightened up with an Allen key.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2017, 05:46 AM »
Brass would be the best as it can lock down harder and still not mark the steel.
The best would be a split collar clamp. Something like this:
https://m.mscdirect.com/mobileweb/product_detail?id=35460062&hasRestrictedParts=false

I like that one.  I might even have to get one (or two).  What's the diameter of the bit?

The shaft is 10 mm.

Peter

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2017, 06:11 AM »
Parf Guides purchased from TSO will include a Clamp Collar for the 10mm CentroTec bit shaft at no additional charge as soon as we have stock. We will also include the new Clamp Collars with the replacement CentroTec bits we now stock. We will automatically  mail out the collars retroactively to customers who have already purchased Parf Guides or replacement bits from us - no need to request it.

We discussed this concern with Axminster and they are aware of it. They agree with us that the Clamp Collar is a good choice. Originally Axminster envisioned the  Stop Collar as being used only to keep the bit from dropping out while the fixture is being moved from one position to the next with the drill disengaged. This is why non-marring plastic and/or brass screws were apparently used before switching to steel set screws as it became apparent that customers expected to tighten these screws.

Hans

TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Marven

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2017, 09:50 AM »
Sounds like a great solution Hans.

By the way - Thumbs up on the Guide Rail Square.  I had originally bought the Festool angle guide but it was easily knocked out of alignment.  I am using your square to cut roofs for Habitat for Humanity houses.  I just make one measurement on the OSB, place your square and guide rail and ...voila, one cut and another factory edge!

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2017, 11:01 PM »
Clamping Collars shipping to TSO customers for Parf Guide CentroTec 20mm bits.

Alerted by a Parf Guide user to the stop collar issue with the plastic screws and stell set screws,we understood that an improvement was in order. We suggest to Axminster that a clamping collar would be an improvement and they agreed.

Because of the lead time for Axminster to change over production and get inventory into distribution, TSO decided to order a substantial quantity of US made Stainless Steel 10mm Clamping Collars and ship one of these to every customer who has purchased a Parf Guide System from us at no charge.

All future Parf Guide Systems purchased from TSO will automatically have this 10mm SS Clamping Collar added at no additional cost. We will also include this Clamping Collar with the 20mm CetroTec bit purchased as a spare part - also at no additional charge.

The socket head screw requires a 2.5mm Allen wrench which are included in just about all metric Allen wrench sets.

Axminster is changing over production to an aluminum Clamping Collar which is expected  to become available early next year some time. Until then TSO will continue  to add the US made Clamping collar.

Hans and Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Rusty Miller

  • Posts: 235
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2017, 02:54 PM »
Once again TSO puts customers first! Thanks Hans.

Rusty
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:50 AM by Rusty Miller »
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Offline Cjgiombi

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #71 on: Yesterday at 07:16 AM »
Just received my guide in the mail yesterday from Lee Valley! Can’t wait to try it out.

Offline Rusty Miller

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Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 07:44 AM »
Got my Super Dogs the other day from TSO but still waiting on the drill stop for the 20mm drill.

Rusty
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Offline Marven

  • Posts: 16
Re: Parf Guide System Review
« Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 11:11 AM »
I ordered  a collar from Rulland and it was shipped promptly.

Ruuland