Author Topic: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs  (Read 5221 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kitui

  • Posts: 39
QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« on: January 24, 2018, 08:00 PM »
Hello, I purchased the PARF guide with 2 sets of small veritas bench dogs and the TSO tall bench dogs with the clips for the festool guide. I made a hole to see if the new corded drill could handle the process. I tested the hole and I noticed that the Veritas bench dogs snuggle perfectly but the TSO are quite loose. I was not expecting this outcome. Is it normal? Is it important? Probably not if all the holes are drill equally and equally distant and perfectly perpendicular. Please advise. Thanks

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2018, 10:32 AM »
All:
when using the ParfGuide SYstem we now recommend using our new CT-Dogs. These Close Tolerance Dogs as the name implies are made to extremely close tolerances with a slightly larger diameter specifically for use with the ParfGuideSystem.

Our general purpose Dogs in our workholding line up are intended to be secured with Knobs from below to ensure their square alignment. They are intentionally made with more clearance to allow for the wider tolerances to which homemade worktops and the MFT tops are made. Close tolerances come at a price: namely its easier to encounter interference when all elements involved, especially worktops, are not machined to matching dimensions and equally tight tolerances.

More information and a no-cost exchange program for replacing the TSO  general purpose Dogs will be in a TSO INSIDER newsletter shortly. We already have the Small and Tall CT-Dog in stock. They will be on our website within a week.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 238
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2018, 11:08 AM »
Hans:

Are your CT dogs an improvement over the Veritas Parf Dogs?  Such that the resultant hole pattern is more accurate?

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2018, 02:23 PM »
Hans:

Are your CT dogs an improvement over the Veritas Parf Dogs?  Such that the resultant hole pattern is more accurate?

we can't comment on Veritas Parf Dog tolerances.
We do know that our CT-Dogs will be an extremely good match for the Parf Guide System - money back guaranteed by TSO [smile]
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline kitui

  • Posts: 39
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2018, 10:42 PM »
TSO-Hans
I bought the Parf guide from Lee valley ( I do not think TSO had the guide at that time)  but the TSO long dogs and the clips from Bob Marino. Does TSO SWAP also the long dogs I bought from Marino? I followed another post that suggested long dogs with clips after drilling holes with the PARF guide. They were all defined as 20mm. :(

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 04:15 PM »
TSO is moving to produce the first batch of Stubby Dogs as soon as we can. Meanwhile, we will give some thought on how to make these available for customers who purchased the Tall Dogs from us and prefer the Stubby version instead.

Hans and Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1730
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 06:42 PM »
Hans, FWIW I tested the non-CT dogs I recently received from you in parf guide drilled holes today and they fit perfectly. If they were any bigger I would have had to hammer them in.

My PG was purchased about a year ago from Axmister and has the old-style 20mm bit. Not sure if the new bits are slightly larger or ???

RMW

All:
when using the ParfGuide SYstem we now recommend using our new CT-Dogs. These Close Tolerance Dogs as the name implies are made to extremely close tolerances with a slightly larger diameter specifically for use with the ParfGuideSystem.

Our general purpose Dogs in our workholding line up are intended to be secured with Knobs from below to ensure their square alignment. They are intentionally made with more clearance to allow for the wider tolerances to which homemade worktops and the MFT tops are made. Close tolerances come at a price: namely its easier to encounter interference when all elements involved, especially worktops, are not machined to matching dimensions and equally tight tolerances.

More information and a no-cost exchange program for replacing the TSO  general purpose Dogs will be in a TSO INSIDER newsletter shortly. We already have the Small and Tall CT-Dog in stock. They will be on our website within a week.

Hans
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 08:33 PM »
@Richard/RMW
your comment about TSO's standard Dogs fitting just fine with your top made some time ago with a ParfGuide Drill Bit is appreciated. You confirm our recent experience that there is a place for both Dog body diameters (as we try to explain on our website www.tsoproducts..com  and also mentioned in our latest TSO INSIDER newsltter.

By the way: we made a naming change on our Close Fitting Dogs to CF-Dog from  the CT- moniker we had planned earlier. It dawned on us that all our Dogs are made to close tolerances (duuuuh...) but the are made to different fits. So don't retire your TSO or other standard 19.9mm body diameter dogs. You will continue to find them appropriate for many tasks in the future - especially with knobs like our SpeedKnobs.

A couple of things we have learned to appreciate:
our Tall CF-Dogs work QUITE well when A "handle" is useful to pull them out of close fitting holes and especially when using them with the Parf Guide drill fixture.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 238
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2018, 11:14 PM »
Hans:  Are your close-fit dogs marked to differentiate them from standard fit dogs?

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2018, 11:21 PM »
from TSO's website product page on the CF-Dogs:
So Exactly What's Different Here?
DoubleGroove CF-Dogs are distinguished by their slightly larger body diameter, 0.003" (0.08 mm) to be exact. While this change may seem minute, it makes all the difference in eliminating any unwanted play that may be present when a standard 20mm dog is inserted into a precision cut 20mm hole. A CF-Dog can be easily identified by the addition of a single annular groove in its top surface.

thanks for asking
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 238
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2018, 11:25 PM »
Hans:  I meant marked for easy identification.  I don’t always have a micrometer handy.

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2018, 11:29 PM »
@RustE  -
I was unable to underscore the copied and pasted text from our website - last sentence above:
 A CF-Dog can be easily identified by the addition of a single annular groove in its top surface.

sorry about that

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 238
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2018, 11:35 PM »
Hans:  My apologies. I read your last post too quickly. Thanks for the clarification.

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 323
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2018, 12:00 AM »
Hans,

I received my CF Dogs today and the fit is spot on!!!! Can't wait for the CF stubbys.

Thanks
Jack

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2018, 09:07 AM »
Hans,

I received my CF Dogs today and the fit is spot on!!!! Can't wait for the CF stubbys.

Thanks
Jack

#Claimdude - feedback is always welcome on the CF-Dogs or any of our products. Jack, what type of 20mm worktop are you using -MFT/3 or?
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 323
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 09:27 AM »
Hans,

I have a custom MFT style work bench built with the JackBench concept. The top was milled at a pro wood working milling place on their CNC. The dimensions are larger than an MFT but the hole size were 20mm in the plans.
277172-0
277174-1
Thanks
 Jack

Hans,

I received my CF Dogs today and the fit is spot on!!!! Can't wait for the CF stubbys.

Thanks
Jack

#Claimdude - feedback is always welcome on the CF-Dogs or any of our products. Jack, what type of 20mm worktop are you using -MFT/3 or?
Hans
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:32 AM by Claimdude »

Offline kitui

  • Posts: 39
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2018, 12:32 PM »
I got the CF dogs by TSO and love them. They are much better fit for my Workbench top done with the PARF Guide (Love that one too) then the previous version. However, I still have not resolved the problem of the Tall dogs hitting the TS55 motor. If I knew that before buying them, I would not have bought the long dogs. I bought them to use them with the clip (genius idea) but there are too many limitation on the width of the stock that they are mostly useless for the clips. Did TSO come up with an idea with a medium dog that would fit (without getting the Superdog which is great but way to pricey)?
 

Offline bnaboatbuilder

  • Posts: 130
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2018, 01:12 PM »
I think the next logical item to fabricate (TSO or UJK or whoever), is a dog clip with an offset wide enough to move the rail away from dogs which are too tall for motors or batteries on track saws to get by. Instead of making dogs all different heights which will get pretty silly after a while, just fix the issue at the actual connection point to the rail. KISS should always be the first pathway.

And when you make that, send me a royalty.
- John

Offline kitui

  • Posts: 39
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2018, 01:54 PM »
I am wondering if I can add another veritas dog on top of the first one and use the knob to keep them together, using the 20mm part of the second dog to lock the clip...I will try. May point was that when I purchased the tall dogs, they came with the clip and there was not disclosure that I could not use it if the dog was too close to the stock. Anyway, good idea. I will see if it works.

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 456
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2018, 02:31 PM »
I think the next logical item to fabricate (TSO or UJK or whoever), is a dog clip with an offset wide enough to move the rail away from dogs which are too tall for motors or batteries on track saws to get by. Instead of making dogs all different heights which will get pretty silly after a while, just fix the issue at the actual connection point to the rail. KISS should always be the first pathway.

And when you make that, send me a royalty.

That was the beauty of the RMW rip dog clips...they connected/hooked on to the dogs with an offset so there was no interference with the saw.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1281
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2018, 03:11 PM »
I think the next logical item to fabricate (TSO or UJK or whoever), is a dog clip with an offset wide enough to move the rail away from dogs which are too tall for motors or batteries on track saws to get by. Instead of making dogs all different heights which will get pretty silly after a while, just fix the issue at the actual connection point to the rail. KISS should always be the first pathway.
And when you make that, send me a royalty.
You only need one size dogs, about  ~ 65 mm from the table surface (for TS55) to cover any size of material. This size dog will clear the motor housing regardless of the material thickness.
The only reason to have taller dog is for non-through cuts in very thick material.

Offline bnaboatbuilder

  • Posts: 130
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2018, 05:22 PM »
Reality is that TSO, UJK and others aren't making 20mm specifically for the TS55. The game is changing and Festool isn't the only company with track saws. Also corded track saws don't have the exact same physical characteristics to the cordless saws which are now taking over sales. These accessory companies need to pay attention to a much larger track saw market (corded and cordless) beyond Festool to include Mafell, Makita, Triton, Dewalt, Grizzly and more.

I've run into the issue of using the Parf super dogs, clips, Makita cordless track saw on 1/2", the saw won't clear the top of the dogs. 3/4" stock just allows a hair of clearance.

I'm using the custom rail mount I bought from here a Fogger. He had made a few prototypes which the one I have works great on my larger custom table.
- John

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1281
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2018, 05:37 PM »
Also corded track saws don't have the exact same physical characteristics to the cordless saws which are now taking over sales.
Good point about TSC. Indeed, rear battery sits very low even in un-plunged position.

Offline bnaboatbuilder

  • Posts: 130
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2018, 12:42 AM »
Svar,

Of course I'm using your RSU2 guide rail supports and they work perfectly!
- John

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2018, 05:15 PM »
I am wondering if I can add another veritas dog on top of the first one and use the knob to keep them together, using the 20mm part of the second dog to lock the clip...I will try. May point was that when I purchased the tall dogs, they came with the clip and there was not disclosure that I could not use it if the dog was too close to the stock. Anyway, good idea. I will see if it works.
@kitui  - if you're still struggling with your dog and rail set up, let me know your phone # via email so I can call you directly: info@tsoproducts.com

PM's via FOG are hard for us to keep track of.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline kitui

  • Posts: 39
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 04:39 PM »

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 604
    • TSO Products
Re: QQ about Parf guide holes + Veritas and TSO dogs
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2018, 09:16 PM »
I actually go a pair of medium size dog:
https://tsoproducts.com/workholding-accessories/doublegroove-20mm-bench-dogs-stubby-pair/
Problem solved.
@kitui - thank you for confirming that your needs pertaining to our product are met and questions answered.

Your experience is prompting us to include a reminder with our products for customers to contact us directly with any product related questions:
email us directly  at info@tsoproducts.com

fastest way to get help and authoritative answers  [smile]

Eric and Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions