Author Topic: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers  (Read 28060 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Introducing Ryan’s SYS-Stacker Inserts: Router Bit Storage
Now a "Digital" Project

Production Update: Many of you have been following the evolution of this project -- thanks for the interest! After attempting to perform the CNC work myself (140+ decks), I quickly realized that I had "bit off a little more than I could chew." So, I've switched gears and instead have made the Fusion 360 CAD/CAM files available for purchase. With access to these files, you can go to any good, local CNC shop and have them cut your kit in anywhere from 20 minutes (for a basic SYS1 kit) to approximately 100 minutes (for a SYS4 kit). I've also included assembly instructions in a standalone PDF. If you're interested in the design files, I'm asking $40 USD for those who didn't put in an original pre-order; for those who were generous enough to put in a pre-order, I'm asking for $25 USD. Just PM me if you'd like to purchase.


Here, a SYS3 kit is depicted. This new design uses two 9mm platforms for the top and bottom, light but very strong.


This new design retains the stepped hole functionality, so you can place 1/2" or 1/4" shank bits. New dogbone design helps to self-center the platforms for assembly.


Decks retain stackability, with a simpler design that uses only two risers (plus the handle).


Here's an example of the nested Fusion 360 file for the SYS4 kit, which is cut from a single 53x27" sheet. All toolpaths have been fully defined -- just bring your 1/4" down-cut spiral bit!

So, what makes these inserts so cool?
  • Mix and match to fit your specific T-LOC Systainer, from SYS1 to SYS4: two deck configurations, and three different “riser kits.” (For optimal configurations to fit your Systainer, see bottom of post.)
  • A dual-shank hole design means you can insert your 1/2" and 1/4" router bits into the same hole!
  • Each deck is stackable, making it easy to quickly access your bits, no matter how far down you put them.
  • Each deck is made from two layers of 9mm thick Baltic birch plywood, offering plenty of rigidity while also saving on weight.
  • Incredible capacity: closed decks hold more than 127 bits, and open decks hold 68 bits--limited only by the cutting diameter of your bits.
  • Cut with CNC precision, so every piece fits perfectly.


Let's discuss the decks: open or closed?

A closed deck is best for maximizing the router bit capacity, is ideal for smaller Systainers (SYS 1 and SYS2), and also works well as a lower or bottom deck on larger Systainers (SYS3 and up). The open deck serves as a perfect top-level for larger Systainers, and with this open design, you can store particularly tall bits in this area without having to worry about headroom.



What kit is best for my particular Systainer? See below for my recommended kit, guaranteed to fit. (Note that I have not tested fitment on Systainer Classics; just the T-LOCs.)

The below renderings depict my previous design that utilized 30mm thick baltic birch -- the new design is functionally equivalent (save for slightly less holes), and a lot lighter.

SYS 1 T-LOC Systainer – Recommended Configuration

Closed deck, small handle, plugs instead of risers. This configuration will accommodate router bits ranging from 70 to 80 mm in total length.

SYS 2 T-LOC Systainer – Recommended Configuration

Closed deck, large handle, plugs instead of risers. This configuration will accommodate router bits ranging from 120 to 130 mm in total length. If you’ve got a router bit longer than that, I’d love to see it.

SYS 3 T-LOC Systainer – Recommended Configuration

The preferred Systainer for this insert. One closed deck with medium handle and risers, one open deck with small handle and plugs instead of risers. This configuration will accommodate router bits ranging from 68 to 96 mm in total length, and the “open area” will accommodate bits larger than that.

SYS 4 T-LOC Systainer – Recommended Configuration

Two closed decks with medium handle and risers, one open deck with small handle and plugs instead of risers. This configuration will accommodate router bits up to 96 mm long under the covered portions, and any bits longer than that can be stored in the open area.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:22 AM by ryanjg117 »
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Albiski

  • Posts: 1
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 01:43 AM »
Let me know when you're ready.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Offline epicxt

  • Posts: 402
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 01:47 AM »
You know I'm in! Set aside an appropriate systainer as well! These look great!![emoji106][emoji2]
n = number of Festools I've got.  (n + 1) = Festools I want

Offline lawhoo

  • Posts: 170
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 02:03 AM »
Very impressive. I'm in for a Sys 3 or 4 set.

Offline davlen

  • Posts: 2
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 02:29 AM »
Hi,

Great design!
Two questions:
1) Shipping to France will be possible ?
2) Can you made these inserts for european 8 and 12mm shank ?

David.

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3290
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 06:22 AM »
pritty sweet.
not sure i would need that many bits on site  but im all for organisation.

would some kind of plastic like hdpe be better than ply. im thinking about moisture rusting the shanks. is making the holes tight
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Jamie_MA

  • Posts: 47
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 09:01 AM »
Great Job  [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]


Good luck with the Pat Pen!!!!

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 404
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 09:34 AM »
Put me down for a Sys 3 configuration, thanks!

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 346
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2017, 09:49 AM »
Can't tell if you're serious about the patent pending on the dual hole idea, but @Rick Christopherson has you beat on the prior art in this thread:  http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/router-bit-storage-cabinet/msg339189/#msg339189
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 09:58 AM by Stoli »
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Online Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10517
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2017, 10:00 AM »
I don't know how long this thread will last here (it could be considered a competing project and using this forum for advertisement and sales might be an issue (not to be decided by me) but additionally I would offer caution on using the FOG logo on your products for sale without the prior permission of Festool USA. 

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Rick Christopherson

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1545
    • http://www.rts-engineering.com/
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2017, 10:09 AM »
Nice idea for portable bit storage. 

Can't tell if you're serious about the patent pending on the dual hole idea, but @Rick Christopherson has you beat on the prior art in this thread:  http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/router-bit-storage-cabinet/msg339189/#msg339189

Yup. Built the first one probably around 20 years ago after noting the limitations of the one I built before that for my father's shop before he/we began hording more router bits. Proposed it to the Woodworker's Journal over 15 years ago, and finally made the final iteration when I did the FOG writeup.

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 10:15 AM »
Can't tell if you're serious about the patent pending on the dual hole idea, but @Rick Christopherson has you beat on the prior art in this thread:  http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/router-bit-storage-cabinet/msg339189/#msg339189

Not serious about the "patent pending lingo." I'll update the post to eliminate confusion.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Goneshootin88

  • Posts: 33
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 10:47 AM »
I'm in for a sys2 setup. Can you ship to Hawaii?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline tmccowan

  • Posts: 16
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 01:51 PM »
Looks great! I'm interested.

Offline mculik5

  • Posts: 52
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 10:02 PM »
Very cool!

Please send me the PayPal details. Interested in the SYS2 option.

Also, separate questions:

1. Where do you get 25mm plywood? Or do you make it yourself from thinner sheets?
2. What kind of CNC machine do you use?

Thanks!

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2017, 11:52 PM »
Thanks for all of the comments and PMs. If you've either messaged me or expressed interest in this thread, I have sent you a PM to confirm you're on the pre-order list, and will follow up with additional details as I get closer to CNC time.

Also, Eric Brandt brought up a great question about Systainer Classic compatibility. I'm willing to undertake the design changes necessary to make the inserts backward compatible with Systainer Classics (if it can be done with minimal reengineering), but I don't actually own one. If anyone is local to the Seattle area and has a Classic they can part with for a couple weeks, please let me know.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline epicxt

  • Posts: 402
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2017, 01:22 AM »
Hey Ryan- I've got a classic at the jobsite that I'm just using for storing glue and epoxy. If you want to swing by anytime this week or weekend you can grab it. Text me first. Cheers!
n = number of Festools I've got.  (n + 1) = Festools I want

Offline UncleJoe

  • Posts: 120
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2017, 08:39 AM »
I am interested in a sys 2 or sys 3. I also agree with the use of a synthetic material if possible. I love all the thought and effort that went into this. I did not read all the threads regarding this but wondered if a small tray/well area would be useful to store bearings and hex keys and other little things we end up needing with our routers and bits.
I am not young enough to know everything!

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 730
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2017, 10:27 AM »
@ryanjg117

I'm in for a Sys 3 setup. What are the chances of you changing some of the 1/4" holes to accommodate 8mm bits? I guess that it wouldn't be too hard for me to drill the holes out for my 8mm bits.

Thanks,

Daniel
Daniel

Offline JSlovic

  • Posts: 87
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2017, 11:59 AM »
Ryan,
I'm in for a sys 3 configuration
Thanks
jack

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 623
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 12:24 PM »
Man thats a lot of router bits to carry around! I cant imagine owning or needing that many! Cool idea though.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2017, 01:59 PM »
Thanks for all of the interest and pre-orders. I've updated the post with more pre-order details, and also attempted to answer questions received below:

Will these fit Systainer Classics?
I'm looking into that now, and will test fitment after I have the first prototype CNC'ed. Should be some time in February. If I can make minimal modifications for backward compatibility, I will, and I'll update this post when it happens.

Would you be willing to offer these with 8mm or 12mm? (Or some other shank size?)
Sure - the redesign effort is minimal for changing the size of the router bit holes. Send me a PM with your specific design changes, and your home address, and I can get you a shipping quote. (Shipping might kill the deal here, if you're international.)

I wish you could make this in a composite or HDPE, rather than plywood.
I've looked into HDPE or a millable composite like RenShape as an alternative, and unfortunately, it is cost-prohibitive. An HDPE sheet in 25mm thickness, for example, runs over $500, compared to 25mm baltic birch at about $80 per sheet. If you've got an idea for a better material that is available in 25mm thickness and doesn't break the bank, I'm all ears.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 11:53 PM by ryanjg117 »
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 11:50 PM »
01-25-2017 Production Update

I'm happy to report we're up to almost 30 pre-orders -- what a response! This might end up being a little more than a Saturday project after all.  [eek]

I've placed an order for a gallon of General Finishes Enduro Pigmented Poly, color matched to Festool's RAL 6018 yellow/green. It's over $100 a gallon shipped, but sprays well with my Apollo HVLP kit and doesn't require a sanding sealer. I'll post pictures once I get to atomizing!

My friend and professional woodworker, Darrell Peart, has generously offered to let me use his dual-spindle CNC machine for this project. Be sure to check out his website if you're a fan of Greene and Greene.

I'll post more production updates (and pictures) as meaningful progress is made.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 297
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2017, 08:32 AM »
Ryan,

I will take the single deck SYS 1 recommended configuration you show at the top of this thread at $32 CONUS.

Thanks
Jack Lemley

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3274
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2017, 01:00 PM »
How about one full deck for 1/2", and another split equally between 1/4" and 8mm?  Possible?   [unsure]
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline dlyons41

  • Posts: 13
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2017, 07:35 PM »
Ryan, I am interested in a SYS 4.  Let me know what I need to do to make it happen.  Thanks, Doug

Offline Horio

  • Posts: 5
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2017, 11:06 PM »
Ryan,

Would it be possible to do a SYS-3, with the upper open deck configured for 8mm & 1/4 inch (dual shank holes or split half-half as suggested 2 posts up maybe)?  Thanks for offering these sweet inserts to FOG!
TS55, OF1400, DTS400, Pro5 LTD, CT36 w/Boom Arm

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2017, 09:12 PM »
How about one full deck for 1/2", and another split equally between 1/4" and 8mm?  Possible?   [unsure]

Sparktrician, sure. Send me a PM and note your modifications and I'll add you to the pre-order list.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2017, 09:13 PM »
Would it be possible to do a SYS-3, with the upper open deck configured for 8mm & 1/4 inch (dual shank holes or split half-half as suggested 2 posts up maybe)?  Thanks for offering these sweet inserts to FOG!

Yep - shoot me a PM, note your modifications, and I'll get you on the pre-order list.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3004
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2017, 02:17 PM »
How about one full deck for 1/2", and another split equally between 1/4" and 8mm?  Possible?   [unsure]

Would it be possible to do a SYS-3, with the upper open deck configured for 8mm & 1/4 inch (dual shank holes or split half-half as suggested 2 posts up maybe)?  Thanks for offering these sweet inserts to FOG!

Hey Ryan,
Why not consider using/supplying 1/2" to 8mm Delrin or nylon bushings. That way using the same layout you have now would accommodate 1/4", 8mm & 1/2" router bits. It would also allow the end user greater flexibility in the placement or rearrangement of router bits. [smile]

Offline bobandmic

  • Posts: 9
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2017, 09:17 AM »
Not sure if my PM went through, but I would be interested in a closed SYS1 and a closed SYS2.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2017, 10:24 PM »
Not sure if my PM went through, but I would be interested in a closed SYS1 and a closed SYS2.

Yep, I've got you on the pre-order list. Thanks!
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2017, 12:32 AM »
02-03-2017 Production Update

I've identified the supplier for the 25mm baltic birch panels, and learned they can even special-order panels up to 40mm thick! Those weigh in at 141 lbs. per 5x5' sheet!

At the recommendation of General Finishes, I'm changed the finish to their Milk Paint, tinted RAL 6018, rather than my original plan to use their Pigmented Poly, which they worried could become too thin with this specific color. I've sprayed white milk paint before and it's beautiful, so I have total confidence this is going to look great.

If you're on the pre-order list, you should have received the Paypal invoice via email by now. If you haven't seen an invoice from me (Ryan's Pursuits LLC), it's likely because I don't have your email address. Please PM or email me your email address, and I'll get your invoice out the door.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline GadgetGuy

  • Posts: 3
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2017, 03:47 PM »
I could use the SYS3 configuration today, but would like to potentially expand to a SYS4 config in the future.  Given the possibility that this may be a one-time, limited offer, if I order the SYS4 config today, can I reconfigure the purchased components now to use two decks in a SYS3 container and store the 3rd deck for use in a SYS4 later on?

Would I need to order any additional parts?  e.g. - handles, risers, etc.?

Thanks, Mark

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2017, 09:52 PM »
I could use the SYS3 configuration today, but would like to potentially expand to a SYS4 config in the future.  Given the possibility that this may be a one-time, limited offer, if I order the SYS4 config today, can I reconfigure the purchased components now to use two decks in a SYS3 container and store the 3rd deck for use in a SYS4 later on?

Would I need to order any additional parts?  e.g. - handles, risers, etc.?

Mark, the only difference between the SYS3 and SYS4 configuration is the addition of a third deck (medium risers and handle). So, absolutely, you can order a SYS4 and simply store the additional deck until you've got the SYS4 systainer. If that sounds good, send me a PM and I'll get you on the pre-order list for a SYS4 Recommended Kit. Thanks!
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline bwehman

  • Posts: 7
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2017, 01:35 AM »
Would be kind of neat to have a few of them through drilled to accept Forstener bits, maybe? IDK ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Could Forsteners fit as is?

This is incredibly awesome btw.

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2017, 03:14 AM »
Would be kind of neat to have a few of them through drilled to accept Forstener bits, maybe? IDK ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Could Forsteners fit as is?

This is incredibly awesome btw.

Thanks - I believe most forstners have a 3/8" shank so, unfortunately, they won't fit in these holes. Not tightly, at least.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2017, 03:25 AM »
02-09-2017 Production Update

Had a good meeting at a local CNC/woodworking meetup. Got some great feedback from pro woodworkers and, as a result, will be making one design modification: I'll be increasing the thickness of the platforms by 5mm, using 30mm thick baltic birch plywood rather than 25mm stock. This change is necessary to give the dual-shank shouldered holes more depth, which will make your bits more secure/stable when they're inserted--especially when you're on the move.

This design change won't impact the bit headroom/capacity or cost. There will be a negligible increase in weight (about 1/2 lb per deck).
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3635
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2017, 04:39 AM »
How about one full deck for 1/2", and another split equally between 1/4" and 8mm?  Possible?   [unsure]

+1 (Same for me)

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 348
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2017, 06:40 AM »
I'm in, but where do you get those translucent Systainers ? :-)
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Gwerner

  • Posts: 235
  • They call me George...
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2017, 03:34 PM »
I'm in for a SYS1 insert, I sent you a PM with my e-mail for the invoice. Thanks!

Offline Bhend18

  • Posts: 182
    • Hendricks Construction
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2017, 10:39 PM »
I'm going to be ordering one of these kits. They look great. I also wonder if there would be interest in a deck cut for the drawer in a SYS-Combi. I have my routers in these and use the drawers for bits. Perhaps the original deck plan could be cut to fit the drawer?
Domino DF 500, CT 36 E, Boom Arm Set, CT MIDI, OF 1400, LR 32, FS 2424/2-LR 32, FS 1400/2 LR32, TS 55 REQ, TS 75 EQ, HKC 55 EB, FS 800, FS 1080, FS 1900, FS 3000, FSK 250, FSK 420, Parallel Guide Set, MFT/3, Kapex KS 120, Kapex UG, CXS, PDC 18/4, Drilling Dust Nozzle, CMS-GE, Carvex PS 420 EBQ, Pro 5 LTD,RO 90 DX, RO 150 FEQ, RTS 400 REQ, RS 2 E, LS 130 EQ, RAS 115 E, CT Wings, Vecturo OS 400, SysLite KAL-2, SYSRock

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2017, 10:55 PM »
I'm going to be ordering one of these kits. They look great. I also wonder if there would be interest in a deck cut for the drawer in a SYS-Combi. I have my routers in these and use the drawers for bits. Perhaps the original deck plan could be cut to fit the drawer?

Shoot me a PM with an image that shows how you're storing your router bits in the SYS-Combi and I'll see if I can dream up any ideas.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Bhend18

  • Posts: 182
    • Hendricks Construction
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2017, 10:38 PM »
I couldn't figure out how to attach an image to a PM so I'll leave this here. Modified a foam systainer insert to fit the SYS-Combi. I was wondering if one of your closed decks could be modified to fit as well.

Domino DF 500, CT 36 E, Boom Arm Set, CT MIDI, OF 1400, LR 32, FS 2424/2-LR 32, FS 1400/2 LR32, TS 55 REQ, TS 75 EQ, HKC 55 EB, FS 800, FS 1080, FS 1900, FS 3000, FSK 250, FSK 420, Parallel Guide Set, MFT/3, Kapex KS 120, Kapex UG, CXS, PDC 18/4, Drilling Dust Nozzle, CMS-GE, Carvex PS 420 EBQ, Pro 5 LTD,RO 90 DX, RO 150 FEQ, RTS 400 REQ, RS 2 E, LS 130 EQ, RAS 115 E, CT Wings, Vecturo OS 400, SysLite KAL-2, SYSRock

Offline onevw

  • Posts: 47
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2017, 06:47 AM »

Hello

I do not see a place to store the necessary wrenches used to change the bits or a place to store the necessary nuts used to lock the  bits in the router motor spindle.

Rick B
Sys 3 on order with some 8mm holes

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2017, 04:12 PM »
I do not see a place to store the necessary wrenches used to change the bits or a place to store the necessary nuts used to lock the  bits in the router motor spindle.

Rick - If you're using the traditional flat router wrench, you should have enough room on the sides or front/back to stow the wrench. I've intentionally designed the inserts to *not* be super tight, since my prototyping has found that it can make the inserts tough to remove, especially on deeper systainers. As for the nuts you reference, do you mean collets? Those should be small enough to fit in the pockets of the open deck at the top of your SYS3 insert assembly. Thanks! Ryan
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline oneeyesquare

  • Posts: 31
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2017, 08:28 PM »
PM sent for one SYS3 variant.

My tool budget this quarter has been dominated by systainers!  [eek]

Offline Marc2010

  • Posts: 77
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2017, 01:43 PM »
Hi Ryan<
Im assuming this is done on a CNC. Would you sell the tool path file to me so i can cut my own? No wood- No $$paint -No shipping - Just $$$
Marc
Marc Ker
Mft, TS 55, Of 1400, MFK700 kit, RO125, DTS 400 EQ, RO 125,CT 26,36mm hose,VS 600, FS 2700, FS 1400,Kapex

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2017, 11:38 PM »
03-06-2017 Production Update

I've made some good progress in the last couple of weeks. I processed the Baltic birch plywood, sanding it, spraying it Festool green, and cutting it down to size for the CNC process. Later this week, I will run what will (hopefully) be a last prototype on the CNC. My primary goal with this final prototype is to determine the precise hole sizes necessary for the 1/2", 1/4", and 8mm holes; the shouldered holes were a cool idea, but having only half the material depth for each bit means these tolerances need to be fairly tight. Too tight, though, and you'll have a frustrating time trying to get your bits inserted. Hoping to find a happy middle ground there.

I'm still shooting to get all deliveries out by end of month. I'll try to provide at least one more production update before you get the shipping notification.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3004
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2017, 12:10 AM »
Thanks for the update Ryan...I'm pretty impressed with your updates, they're on point and much appreciated.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 348
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2017, 05:05 AM »
Thanks for the update Ryan...I'm pretty impressed with your updates, they're on point and much appreciated.

ditto. thanks for keeping us informed and thanks for taking this on.

This may turn into a profitable sideline business for you if that's what you want.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline JBag09

  • Posts: 147
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2017, 06:36 AM »
Another thank you for keeping us informed. And I'm sure I'm not speaking for just myself, but looking forward to receiving the insert. Keep up the good work Ryan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2017, 01:49 AM »
2017-03-13 Production Update:
The Painful Reality of Drilling 36,856 Holes




The last week of prototyping has been an enlightening one; I’ve discovered a number of design fixes that need to be made, which I’ve done my best to summarize below.

Change 1: Reducing the number of holes
 
Quite simply put, my original design called for 280 stepped holes to be drilled in the closed decks, and 167 stepped holes in the open decks. For the volume of this project, that’s more than 36,000 holes that would need to be drilled. During prototyping, it didn’t take long to realize that (a) no (affordable) bit in the world has the tool life necessary to perform all (or even a good chunk) of these cuts, which is a tall ask given the bits need to go through 20+ plys of Baltic birch with tough adhesives that kill cutter life, and (b) just the CNC machine time alone would have added up to more than 80 hours – just for the hole drilling portion of the CNC process!
 
So, I’ve tried to address this most challenging part of the project in two ways: first, reducing the number of holes. Simply put, 280 holes in a single deck was overkill, and while it did add slightly to the versatility, the truth is that most of you will be storing bits that have cutters wider in diameter than their shank. By reducing the number of holes and spacing them out more practically, I’ve been able to reduce the hole count by a little more than half. Secondly, there’s simply no router bit that can do these holes, in this volume. Even the most expensive Vortex long-life carbide up-cut end-mills aren’t optimized to drill holes all day. For that process, I need a proper drill bit with a high helical flute angle to evacuate chips without building up too much heat. Fortunately, W.L. Fuller manufactures a stepped drill bit with the exact tolerances necessary to drill these holes. This means I can now reduce the drilling operation to a single process, rather than four individual processes involving three different bits. I’m going to cross my fingers and hope they will have the tool life necessary, but we’ll only know once the production starts in earnest. They can always be sharpened along the way.
 
Here is a depiction of the production version of the SYS3 kit – so you can get a feel for what the reduce hole count will look like:


​Caption 1: Here is how the SYS3 kit will look, with fewer holes. I’ve also removed the periphery, dedicated ¼” holes since those bits can be securely stowed in the stepped holes.


Caption 2: This picture shows what the open deck will look like, with the closed deck beneath it.


Caption 3: Here’s how the closed deck will look.

Change 2: Eliminating narrow material walls

Based on issues with the prototype, I’ve increased the wall thickness along the pockets, and also thickened and brought in the risers. Basically, any walls less than 5mm in thickness have been fattened, since these walls were structurally rigid but tearout did occur on the surface veneer. Increasing the wall thickness fixes this problem.
 
On a related note, there were issues with the “through hole” for the FOG logo as well. Specifically, the material inside the “G” was hanging by a thread. So, I’ll be changing this to a slight, 0.50 mm pocket and will paint this lettering.


Caption 4: Rather than the thru-cut for the FOG logo, this detail will be slightly recessed and painted in Festool green.

Change 3: Improving balance and stack-ability

I’ve added “strong man powerlifting arms” to the risers to serve as a resting spot for the sides of the stacked decks, and will also be rounding over the slots on the underside of the decks, making it easier to “find” the mounts as you’re stacking them back into a Systainer.


​Caption 5: The risers now closely resemble Magnús Ver Magnússon.

Due to these design changes and the fact that I’m waiting on delivery of the stepped drills, the likelihood of this project shipping by the end of March is highly unlikely. This project will now be shipping in April or, worst case, May. I’ll strive to produce them as quickly as I can, and provide regular updates as the project continues. Most likely I will be producing these a few at a time, and will ship them in smaller batches in the order I received your pre-orders.
 
In summary, I’m making a number of changes that will improve the quality and manufacturability of the inserts. However, I also recognize that I’m changing the design midway into the project, after I’ve already accepted your pre-orders. I understand that some of these changes may no longer work for all customers, so I want to provide you an opportunity for a full refund now. Just reply back to this email and let me know if that’s the case – no hard feelings.

I appreciate the trust (and financing) you put into these inserts. Many of you have shelled out close to $100, and I recognize that's nothing to scoff at (even at Festool prices). But I want to make sure what you receive is of Festool quality, even if these rounds of refinement take a little longer than I had initially hoped.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 730
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2017, 09:45 AM »
Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the update. I actually like the new version with fewer holes, now I do not need to buy as many router bits to fill it up.
Daniel

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2082
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2017, 10:50 AM »
Thanks for the update, Ryan.  And welcome to prototyping!

I'm on the order list and happy that you are taking your time and doing it right.  The changes look like excellent refinements and well justified.  BTW, your design and renders look amazing.  If only you could render the inserts, email them for installation, and be done!

From my standpoint, take your time and get it right.  If you need an additional fee to cover the unexpected costs, at least let us know.  I would be happy to help so you don't lose your shirt on this community effort.

Please capture some video of these being cut.  CNC is amazing in action...

And be aware that sharpening CNC bits will affect your tolerances!

neil

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3004
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2017, 11:21 AM »
I second what @neilc  suggested...take your time and get it right.  [big grin]

I'm probably close to the last on the list if not indeed the LAST on the list, but I'll be happy to wait because I believe the delay will produce a better product. All of the modifications you've described just make sense. Case in point, I have a Systainer with the foam insert for router bits, the Systainer is fully populated with 42 bits, yet there are 104 holes in the foam.

Offline jdv84usn

  • Posts: 5
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2017, 06:46 AM »
Too late to get in on this?

Offline Rusty Miller

  • Posts: 222
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2017, 11:09 AM »
Any chance on getting the part # for the stepped drill bit from W.L. Fuller. [big grin]

Thanks,
Rusty
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3004
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2017, 01:16 PM »
Any chance on getting the part # for the stepped drill bit from W.L. Fuller. [big grin]

Here are a couple of the smaller sized counterbores.

http://wlfuller.com/html/type__r_.html

http://wlfuller.com/html/carbide1.html

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 689
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2017, 02:05 PM »
Here's a one piece step drill:

http://www.wlfuller.com/html/hss_step_drills.html

SD14F is 1/2 1/4 and a flat step

Difference with these versus the ones that cheese linked is the smaller pilot has a limited depth. 5/16 for the bit mentioned.

Ron

Offline Rusty Miller

  • Posts: 222
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2017, 05:20 PM »
Thanks @Cheese and @rvieceli for the links.  May have to pick on of those up.
Rusty
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3004
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2017, 10:03 AM »
Thanks @Cheese and @rvieceli for the links.  May have to pick on of those up.
Rusty

As Ron noted, on the one-piece step drill, the pilot has a very limited amount of drilling depth (because it is a pilot). The proper way to use this item is to drill the pilot hole to the depth needed and then use the step drill to give the desired amount of counterbore depth while using the original pilot hole diameter to center and guide the step drill. It will always be a 2-step process.

With the carbide counterbores, you have more options for the pilot diameter as well as the pilot diameter drilling depth. Select the counterbore diameter, select the pilot drill diameter then assemble them to attain the pilot drill depth desired and drill. It is a 1-step process.

It just depends upon the product/manufacturing requirements.




Offline tdc

  • Posts: 4
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2017, 09:09 PM »
Hi Ryan,

Am wondering what render engine you are using for your renders - they look wonderful.

Cheers,

Tony

2017-03-13 Production Update:
The Painful Reality of Drilling 36,856 Holes


Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2017, 06:12 PM »
2017-03-26 Project Update

After many long nights with the CNC, including a few marathon sessions that yielded just eight half-completed decks, I’ve decided that, reluctantly and with a lot of disappointment, I’m going to have to throw in the towel and issue refunds. Here’s why:

A poor design

Knowing what I know now, I probably would not have attempted to commercialize this project. But if I did, I certainly would have made some big design changes. First and foremost, I would not have selected 30mm Baltic birch plywood. As I’ve noted in previous updates, this material is very tough to cut and requires 3-4 passes on the CNC machine, which really increases cycle time. Had I been smarter, my design would have called for very thin materials, like 6mm Baltic birch, to form the deck uppers and lowers, with dowels serving as the risers and to add rigidity to the assembly. Thinner materials would be cut faster, in a single pass, and wouldn’t have required specialized long-cutter-length bits to perform the finishing pass, which would have saved a lot on cutter costs as well. I should note that I have been experimenting with a thinner design, which does cut faster, but requires two decks be cut, so ultimately, there isn’t a tremendous amount of overall time savings even in a thinner design.

Speaking of cycle times…

I was concerned during prototyping about the time it would take to cut the holes, and I thought that by selecting stepped drill bits and optimizations in CAM, I could reduce that time. And I could have, slightly. But with this project calling for producing about 160 decks, I should have taken a step back and really crunched the numbers. My goal was to get the machine time per deck down to 15 minutes, which still would have entailed 40 hours of CNC time. But I wasn’t able to get anywhere close to that. Realistically, to fulfill all of the orders here, I would be looking at 200-300 hours of CNC shop time. Which leads me to…

Access and shop time…

I’ve been very fortunate to have access to a nearly full-size CNC machine with vacuum table and dust collection, and even though I don’t have to pay for its use, my colleague does. Whenever the CNC is running, the rotary phase converter is on to power the vacuum system and big dust collector. After the reality of this project started to sink in and I started to think about what my friend’s next power bill might be from Seattle City Light, I cringed. It’s not fair for me to use his shop and machines for the length of time this project would have required without significantly compensating him, which leads to my last epiphany…

Costs

At the outset of this project, I didn’t have a full appreciation for the costs associated with producing this design en masse. My goal was to essentially break even here, but I didn’t do a good enough job of factoring in the cost of consumables. For example, router bits. After the Vortex 3184XP “extreme performance” compression spiral bit ($100 each) started fluttering on just the second panel, I knew this expense alone would sink the project. Based on some rough calculations and the router bit life I saw after experimenting with a number of other bits, I believe that each deck could have cost me $10-15 to produce. That’s after the $25 per deck you already paid.



I know this update won’t satisfy anyone, and I know many of you were very excited to receive your insert. I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to follow through with the production here, but I did learn some valuable lessons on this journey. If you placed a pre-order through Paypal, you should receive a refund notification today.

If you’re interested in cutting the inserts on your own machine—you’ve been forewarned—I’d be happy to share the DXF files with you. Just send me a PM.

And if you happen to have any expertise in injection molding, let’s talk. :-)

Obligatory photos, since, well, it’s all I have to show for this project:







Thanks again for the support, and sorry it has to end this way.

Best regards,

Ryan
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 01:07 AM by ryanjg117 »
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline onevw

  • Posts: 47
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2017, 07:05 PM »
OK

I understand, So figure up your $ loss as of now and ma bee we can kick in enough $ to soften the financial blow of this noble attempt.

Don’t be shy and spread the loss like a business deal gone bad for I have had a few of them do that.


Rick

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 730
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2017, 09:07 PM »
Hey Ryan,

Thank for the explanation and for all your effort in this endeavor. I wished it would have worked out but I totally understand. For what it's worth, I would have gladly paid 2x as much or even $150. Now I will have to find another use for the sys-combi 3 that I purchased.  [scratch chin]
Daniel

Offline Mantis806

  • Posts: 2
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2017, 09:29 PM »
Thank you for the update, Ryan. FWIW, I am with Runhard and onevw. I would be willing to put in more to keep the project alive. New ventures and good products are not easy, but they ARE worth it. Thank you for your efforts!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 55
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2017, 09:57 PM »
Disappointing news, and yes, thank you for the effort.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 914
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2017, 10:22 PM »
Have you considered gang boring machine? Drill two thinner sheets, one with 1/2, another 1/4 holes, and then sandwich them. You could stack several sheets and drill them together. Drilling cutters have different geometry and are more efficient. Hovewer, boring machines like that are not easily available. Its another level of production capacity.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 439
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2017, 10:32 PM »
Bummer.  Even though I don't need to carry router bits around, I thought the idea was very creative and useful for people who do.  The interest you got was indicative of that.

This was a really interesting thread.  Thanks for sharing your experience.  Now that you have the creativity -and- experience, your chances of success the next time around have just gone up.  Good luck!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3004
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2017, 12:14 PM »
Well I'll be the 4th to encourage you to press forward and am willing to sweeten the pot if you can adequately get your arms around the "overall project cost".

I'm sure at this point you have purchased a lot of the raw materials (if not all of the raw materials) and the question then becomes what do you do with all that "stuff"? Returning it back to the original supplier means lost $$$ in shipping charges and in most cases, also lost $$$ in re-stocking charges.

You also appear to have many of the pieces already CNC'd so that would also be lost $$$ unless you did something with those items other than tossing them out.

Maybe there is a better way out of this dilemna...maybe you just need some time? [smile]

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 836
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2017, 12:32 PM »
Ryan, it was fun to watch this process play out.  I didn't have a need for this, but I thought it was very creative and enjoyed reading the updates that came with it.  It's unfortunate that it wasn't financially viable.  I would encourage you to press on with revised pricing if you can get your arms around it (including compensation for the CNC time).  Nevertheless, I still think you deserve applause for the effort.  Well done!
-Raj

Offline Gwerner

  • Posts: 235
  • They call me George...
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2017, 01:56 PM »
I'll jump in here too and say I'd be willing to pony up an additional $20 to $30 to keep this alive.

Offline onevw

  • Posts: 47
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2017, 07:27 PM »
Mr Ryan

I was more talking about sending money to help up cover some of the raw material cost and not producing the product.

Just some cash ,via PayPal Gift service, from who ever feels compelled.

Rick

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 348
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2017, 10:08 PM »
If you can work out what the final cost will be and then what the increase to each is, maybe we enough of us can agree to stay in but I would need to know what the final price is going to be. And make sure there is some profit in it for you. Doing this at cost is not a path to success as you found out. Your time and ingenuity have value, don't sell yourself short.

What if you reduce the thickness of each tray to 1/2" and drill through holes slightly oversize for clearance and let the end of the bit shank hang below. Holes could alternate between 1/4 and 1/2 on a 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 grid which would allow space between each bit for access without risking a cut from an adjacent sharp edge and no worries about bits banging into each other. I think if you can get around 40 to 50 bits on that first tray and the next level up about 30 more you've got more than enough room. How many of us have over 80 bits they need to drag around with them. I've got maybe 40 or 50, and that's stretching it I think.

I'm OK with you taking some time to work out changes to production and exploring ways to reduce costs. To tell you the truth I still think the hole density is too great and you could reduce the number of holes further, which will reduce machine time and consumable costs (bits). As we all know plywood it tough on cutting tools. Is there a better material to use in place of the plywood? What other materials did you consider before you choose plywood, if any that is.

That is if you are still willing to proceed.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2017, 12:49 AM »
I very much appreciate all of your offers to kick in more money, but material cost wasn't the only factor here -- honestly, I probably would have taken the $10-15 hit on each unit if I could have produced it quickly. It's the time commitment, and access to the CNC machine, that were major factors in my decision to abandon the project.

I'm open to exploring more efficient manufacturing methods, namely going with a plastic injection molding process for the decks, and I know there are many FOG'gers with experience in this field. I believe this would result in some higher up-front and tooling costs, but each deck could be molded quickly, and at low cost. That said, I'm a marketing guy, not a materials engineer, so I would need someone else to handle the manufacturing side. Please PM me if you'd like to chat about this. Just like all of you, I hate to let a good idea die, but sometimes we all have to acknowledge that just because something can be beautifully designed, it doesn't mean it can be efficiently manufactured. A learning experience for me, for sure.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline DonL

  • Posts: 5
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2017, 01:46 AM »
I would be open to purchasing the plans and having a go at it on my own. I don`t think I would need so many holes and I have some 15mm and 18mm Finish Birch plywood left over from some other projects.

Offline Don T

  • Posts: 1686
  • Phoenix, Az
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2017, 07:26 AM »
I very much appreciate all of your offers to kick in more money, but material cost wasn't the only factor here -- honestly, I probably would have taken the $10-15 hit on each unit if I could have produced it quickly. It's the time commitment, and access to the CNC machine, that were major factors in my decision to abandon the project.

I'm open to exploring more efficient manufacturing methods, namely going with a plastic injection molding process for the decks, and I know there are many FOG'gers with experience in this field. I believe this would result in some higher up-front and tooling costs, but each deck could be molded quickly, and at low cost. That said, I'm a marketing guy, not a materials engineer, so I would need someone else to handle the manufacturing side. Please PM me if you'd like to chat about this. Just like all of you, I hate to let a good idea die, but sometimes we all have to acknowledge that just because something can be beautifully designed, it doesn't mean it can be efficiently manufactured. A learning experience for me, for sure.
Your tooling cost would way out of the ballpark.  I just finished a handle for a piece of equipment and the tooling was $35,000 and that was built in China.
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit, RTS 400 EQ, Vecturo OS400 Set, CT Wings, CT Drill Guide, Pro 5, CXS

Offline jdv84usn

  • Posts: 5
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2017, 12:37 PM »
Are the .dxf files available?

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2017, 12:29 AM »
Thanks for the emails of encouragement, and I appreciate many of you willing to jump in and chip in to offset some of my sunk costs. I wouldn't feel right about charging for nothing, so here's my game plan:
  • I'm finalizing an "improved once again" design and have posted renderings of it below. This design incorporates all of my learnings along the way, calls for cheaper materials and should be much easier to make -- but I anticipate it will still be more than an hour's worth of CNC time (depending on the machine you use). For example, the entire SYS4 kit can now be cut out of a single piece of 53x27" baltic birch plywood, 9mm (3/8") thickness. Smaller kits will take even less material, obviously.
  • For those who would like to have it cut at a local CNC shop, I'm going to make available the DXFs for each kit, SYS1 through SYS4. I will separate each cutting action onto a different layer to make it easier to setup the CAM settings. Each kit will be nested onto a single sheet of plywood with some additional notes from me on the correct materials to use, the recommended sequence of cuts, and the recommended cutters. This entire design can be cut with one 1/4" down-cut spiral bit (I recommend the Whiteside RD2100) without the need for specialty cutters.
  • My stretch goal is to make each kit's GCODE available, but I have limited experience with this (since I usually program the GCODE on-site, right before cutting). I'll be playing around with Fusion360 this weekend to see if I can get it to spit out GCODE that I can package along with the DXFs. Note that since I can't test that GCODE on every possible CNC machine, and there are GCODE nuances from machine to machine (post processors, speed limitations, and cutting bits), this will be a bit more experimental.
  • I'm going to make the DXFs and GCODE available to all who previously put in a pre-order. I'm out about $1,000 in sunk cost on this project, so if you'd like to donate a bit to defray those costs, that would be much appreciated, but not required.
  • For those who didn't make a pre-order, I'll be selling the digital packages for $40 a pop. Just PM me if you're interested.
  • If anyone has ready access to a CNC machine and is interested in stepping forward to help with the actual cutting, let me know. Perhaps we can "crowdsource" the CNC work if we have a few good people step forward.


Using two 9mm platforms for the top and bottom are cheaper and can be cut faster, but still offer a ton of rigidity.


This new design retains the stepped hole functionality. New dogbone design helps to self-center the platforms for assembly.


Decks retain stackability, with a simpler design that uses only two risers (plus the handle).


Here's an example of the nested drawing for the SYS4 kit, which is cut from a single 53x27" sheet.


Thanks,

Ryan
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT

Offline jdv84usn

  • Posts: 5
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2017, 04:18 AM »
Sounds great, I'm in.

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 297
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2017, 09:10 AM »
Ryan,

Will you be making these kits for those of use who don't have access to a CNC locally? I am happy to pay for mine.

Jack

Offline GadgetGuy

  • Posts: 3
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2017, 08:53 AM »
Hi Ryan - sorry that the job did not move forward as planned. 

Any idea when the revised dxf plans may be made available for those who signed up for the original order?  Per my earlier email, I will attempt to move forward with a simplified approach using foam inserts (Kaisan or other rigid foam), but still retaining your base + risers design concepts.  My brother-in-law owns a mechanical/electrical product design engineering company, so I will see if I can enlist his help.

If this fork makes sense, then it could be used to create standardized SYS inserts to store/stack anything (tools, bits, etc,) in a more generalized way by utilizing the common "stacking shell" and simply changing custom foam inserts for whatever needs to be stored.

Regards, Mark

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 258
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2017, 10:29 AM »
Looking at the pictures, I wonder if one tool change per sheet would be feasible?

The router seems to have two heads, one pass could be with the bits you currently use for the contours - then change them to bits sized according to the (many) holes you need to create. You would just need to split the DXF into two (one for the holes and another for the rest) and leave the vacuum table on while changing the bits so the sheet stays in place.

This should turn the routing operations for the hole pass from countour work into simple and quick position&plunge operations and cut down the total processing time quite a bit. The added overhead for tool change would be only once in the middle of each sheet (1st sheet: contours, change, holes - 2nd: holes, change, contours - rinse&repeat), so it shouldn't be that bad, and would remove quite some strain from the bits used for routing the contours.

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 297
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2017, 11:10 PM »
Ryan,

I preordered and you refunded but I would be happy to pay $40 for the set of drawings. I have a guy in Shreveport that has made a few MFT tops for me I may be able to get him to do a set for me. Let me know when you are ready for the money.

Thanks
Jack

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 348
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2017, 07:30 AM »
Ryan,

I preordered and you refunded but I would be happy to pay $40 for the set of drawings. I have a guy in Shreveport that has made a few MFT tops for me I may be able to get him to do a set for me. Let me know when you are ready for the money.

Thanks
Jack

Ditto, I will find someone locally to run this for me on their CNC. I got my refund but I think the $40 for the drawings and your development time is well worth the asking price.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Magpal

  • Posts: 68
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2017, 02:32 PM »
Awesome project! Very well executed drawings and design! Sorry to see the production being too complicated, as this router bit storage would be very nice to have. Your second solution with the possibility for purchasing the drawings would however also be very interesting.

I do have a couple of questions:
-Do the 8mm bits fit this insert or would you have to make an additional "metric" version?
-I guess 6mm and 12mm bits would fit the 1/4" and 1/2" holes anyway, but if possible I think a pure metric version would be very interesting.
-Will the "top deck" with additional storage rooms fit a SYS-1 alone? I do not have a lot of bits, and it would also be very handy to have some additional room for storing extra bearings etc. A deck with both storage rooms (like on the top deck) and router bit storage would be perfect for weekend warriors like me. Another solution could be to add a couple of "holders"/slots for the red/yellow SYS-1 boxes like Festool has done on the SYS-II drill insert.
-An additional deck for the T-loc sortainer could be very nice. This would be awesome in the bottom drawer of a SYS-combi.
-A "foam friendly" version in a single layer would also be interesting, as this could be lighter and more cost-effective.

Again, great work! I will probably also be interested in buying the drawings for local CNC manufacturing.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:47 PM by Magpal »

Offline UncleJoe

  • Posts: 120
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2017, 07:19 PM »
Has anyone taken this to a local CNC shop and what were the costs?
I am not young enough to know everything!

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 60
Re: Ryan's SYS-Stacker Router Bit Storage Insert for T-LOC Systainers
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2017, 02:25 AM »
I've updated the original post in this thread given the evolution of this project into a digital deliverable. Please see the original post if you're interested in purchasing the Fusion 360 CAD/CAM files. Thanks.
Festools - TS55, OF1400, ETS 150/5, Pro5 LTD, LS 130, Domino DF500, CT36 w/Boom & Dust Deputy, RipDogs, Qwas Dogs, CXS, walls of systainers, custom JumboMFT