Author Topic: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20  (Read 81399 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« on: February 12, 2013, 05:40 AM »
I am building a split top roubo that integrates a festool guide rail. The top slabs are 26"76"3" with a 8" split and build from mostly hard maple. The center support beam (underneath the split) has t-tracks with t-track locks to accept an Incra TS positioner and keep it parallel to the track. The aprons have two sets of parallel t-tracks to support a festool style bracket for the guide rail. I am not using the original fence on the Incra positioner, I opted for a 80/20inc extrusion that is .5" thick so that the fence can slide under the festool guide rail and cut stock as thin as the fence dimension. Placing the "rip" fence below table surface provides the capability of ripping thin stock, but more importantly, allows you to use the Incra-Festool system for narrow rips. For safety I position the fence to the right side of the track to eliminate the risk of kick back from pinning both sides of the cut. The system will also utilize an Incra miter gauge with a custom bracket that attaches in similar fashion as the Festool MFT systems.
I'm having the top slabs CNC bored with 3/4" holes so I can use qwas style dogs for all alignment, and veritas bench accessories. The thickness of the slabs will make this bench useful for hand-tooling work and also allows for the installation of the Benchcrafted Tail Vise.
The bench will be used for routing as well. For example end grain slot mortises using the apron t-tracks to position the work piece. I used a partially built apron, the Festool guide rail and stops, and a microfence interface to cut the slot mortises in the apron joint mockup. The dual t-tracks worked well for orienting the piece for the cut. The joint is drawbored with brass dowel. I have a couple of rough sketchup screen shots and one of the apron joint mockup. I have more pictures of the build process if anyone is interested.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 02:54 AM by Sean KS »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Richard/RMW

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 06:17 AM »
I'm very interested in seeing more photos and build progress. Brilliant use of the Incra positioner recessed into the trough!

From what I can understand you will be using the Incra jig to secure a guide rail and move it into position to make your cuts. If this is correct then you will probably end up with a lot of cut lines in your top over time. Is the top maple or did you devise a way to secure replaceable MDF sections?

Thanks for sharing.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline kfitzsimons

  • Posts: 295
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 06:34 AM »
Neat idea, but I have the same comment as RMW.  It would be a shame to make cuts into the top if you're using a TS 55 and guide rail for cross cutting. Can you show us some examples of how to you're going to use the fence system?

Offline kfitzsimons

  • Posts: 295
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 06:44 AM »
I just looked at your plan again and had an idea. What about adding a sacrificial, replaceable strip routed across the two slabs where you would place the TS guide and make the cross cuts. You could route a groove and place 3/8 hardboard or wood strips. It would be placed at the far right of the bench and you could add a flip up extension table to hold long pieces.

Offline cfullen

  • Posts: 48
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 07:06 AM »
Whoa,
That's a awesome idea. Please show us more. Also. I'd love to have that sketchup file if you are willing to share.

Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

  • Posts: 1022
    • Jim Kirkpatrick Woodworking
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 11:07 AM »
Great idea and sketchup drawings!  I'll be watching this thread for followup pictures as it progresses.  I'll add some advice: if you are planning on using the tail vise for hand planing,  be sure to fabricate some stout legs.  The MFT as it stands is just too flimsy for hand planing.  If you are using it just for clamping pieces for sanding or routing, MFT legs are adequate.  

Offline Michael_Swe

  • Posts: 361
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 03:08 AM »
Well, that's a piece of a workbench (third image :)

Seems to be a great bench. And it's going to be beautiful as well. I'll be really interested in your build pics. Please post them. Could you elaborate some about how you will use the Incra positioner. Will it position your guide rail or your wood? I suppose it's the wood.. And I suppose that you intend to use dogs for lining up the wood? How do you attach the fence to the Positioner when it's in this low position relative to the bench surface?

//Michael

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 04:08 AM »
Michael,
Thanks for the complements, lets hope the finished bench looks as nice as the mock up joint.
I drew up a quick model of the bracket that attaches the guide rail to the t-tracks in the bench apron. The bracket is able to adjust with screws to make 90 degree cuts. The top is CNC bored so I will be using the dog holes for referencing the guide rail bracket to 90 degrees. The screws set the bracket to that angle even if I removed it and placed somewhere else along the apron t-tracks. The wood will reference off of an Incra miter gauge that will attach to the aprons with a similar custom bracket. The end result of the miter gauge and the guide rail bracket will effectively make the bench operate like a Festool MFT. The Incra positioner just allows me to make repeatable cuts, or adjust the work piece for lets say a fluting application. Hopefully it explains how the bench is used.
The Incra positioner will have a 80/20 extrusion that is 1/2", 2", 48". It attaches to the Incra postioner in place of the table saw fence it comes with. The thin dimension will be able to slide under the Festool guide rail when I am working with thin stock that I want ripped to dimensions less than the guide rail itself.

Offline Michael_Swe

  • Posts: 361
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 04:25 AM »
Really great idea. But I'm not entirely sold on the guide rail bracket idea. It seems to be a little slow to work with in regards of adjusting height and changing wood for the next cut. But I might have misunderstood.

You could also offset the 80/20 fence to gain some cutting width. I.e. the workpiece would lie over the positioner instead of at the end of the positioner. You could have two interchangeable brackets for this. One that puts the fence at the end for small cuts. And one for offsetting the fence towards the lock handle of the positioner.

If the trench for the positioner is deep enough you might want to think about putting a lid on the trench. I can imagine that the trench will be annoying if you use the table as a mounting table. And also, you'd not want to have glue dripping on your positioner.

//Michael

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 04:38 AM »
I will see how the bracket works in terms of speed. If it takes too much time to get the next work piece into position  I will hinge it.
The Incra positioner is intalled via t tracks. So I can move it anywhere along the length of the bench. If I need 2 more inches of cutting capacity I can move it down the t tracks to accommodate the cut. This also means I can remove it durning glue-ups. Roubo troughs are generally not this wide I admit, I'll see if a lid would come in handy when I start using the bench in practice.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 04:41 AM by Sean KS »

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 04:42 AM »
In the third image I originally posted you see that the dado for the t track turns onto the end grain. For the mock up joint I turned the piece vertically on the router table to make this cut. For the actual project this dado is on the end of a 7' work piece, so I cannot turn in upright on the router. I tried on a practice piece to make the cut with a hollow chisel mortiser, but even though it was well backed it blew out in fantastic fashion. My second attempt was making the cut with a razor saw and chisels. I got the dado I was looking for and proved that the method works.

Offline Michael_Swe

  • Posts: 361
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 04:45 AM »
Perfect, just remove the positioner if you need room for the lid ;)

About the offsetting of the fence. I didn't mean to gain two inches. I meant a bracket that offsets the fence furhter back. All the way to the locking unit. This gains cutting width without having the positioner protrude outside of the table. But I'm probably biased in the hunt for inches since I'm in a really small shop myself.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of your images.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 09:30 AM »
I LOVE the idea of the positioner with the 1/2" 80/20! Simple to zero out to the guide rails and infinitely adjustable.

A suggestion perhaps in lieu of the guide rail bracket: add a retractable pin on each side of the bench, slide them up and just hold the guide rails against them align it. I was playing with a similar idea a while back and did a (very bad...) video illustrating the idea:



In my example I use the rail clips from my Rip Dogs to align the guide rail to the pin but you don't need them, just press the edge of the rail to the pins like Peter Parfitt's Parf Dogs.

Thanks for sharing your ideas.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3302
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 12:49 PM »
i like that rmw.
really glad to see this coming along

this sytem would allow for angled cuts as well. just move the block along the rail  to adjust it.
or even put one on the short extrusion and the other on the long.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 02:27 AM »
RMW, Your rip guides are awesome. Much sleeker and more user friendly than a huge bracket. I'd be hard pressed to get the smooth friction fit you've worked out, do you see any issue with using a handwheel with a screw mechanism to adjust the height?

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 04:22 AM »
RMW, Here's what I mean, it just took a minute to draw it up. It's the same basic idea, I've put in a height locking screw. And it attaches to the T track underneath the Festool Guide rail. The Height Adjustment Rod (HAR) has a threaded rod at the top so that the HAR can be rotated by hand to lock the t track nut to the Festool Guide Rail. I like this design much more than the big bracket idea, do you see any issues off the bat? Michael what's your thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:28 AM by Sean KS »

Offline Michael_Swe

  • Posts: 361
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 05:29 AM »
I think you over complicate it a bit. You don't need precision in the vertical movement (as with your HAR). The vertical position is automatically calibrated by the surface of your work piece. What matters is the alignment to the MTF holes, and in your case even to the LS Positioner fence.

Parf dogs or RMWs Rip dogs will solve this. If you want something even sturdier you might want to go with angle brackets as I use in my build. You can se the brackets in this image:
82546-0

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 10:39 AM »
Sean,

You idea is right on the money, except as Michael states it does not need to be as complicated as having it attached to the t-slot underneath. Just extend the pin a couple inches over the MFT top and let the guide rail press against it the same way it does with Michael's brackets.

Here are some old photos from my first attempt:

82548-0

82550-1

82552-2

82554-3

82556-4

I used the clips on the guide rails because I was working on a similar idea at the same time and I had them lying around but they are not necessary with the pins mounted this way.

Otherwise I think your design will work perfectly with the thumb screw tightening onto the pin.

RMW



As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2418
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 01:03 PM »
I also believe that these height adjusters are far more complicated than need be.  But more importantly, these designs do not offer any support to keep the guide rail parallel with the surface of you bench.  Festool's guide-rail brackets support the rail for the bulk of the width of the rail -- most of the distance from the back edge of the rail to the splinter guard.  Without this support, the weight of the saw on the rail will cause the rail to tip. 
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 02:46 AM »
Rmw and Michael, the reason I like locking the guide to the braket is cause I use the guide with a Mirco Fence interface for routing operations, such as hardwood dadoing or sliding dovetails. This action puts a good amount of torque on the guide rail and I'd be afraid of slipping off the HAR and coming out of alignment during te routing operation. The TS 75 doesn't cause concerns in the same regard. You guys have used the pins in real time, do you think my concerns are grounded in terms of routing operations? Thanks for your thoughts!

Corwin, What type of operations are you concerned about tipping occurring? In rip operations the work piece supports the guide rail so tipping can't happen then. Even in narrow rips using the incra positioner the guide rail has support. I can see certain routing operations causing worry but a piece of scrap material very simply remedies that worry. I can only guess your concerns are regarding cross cuts where the workpiece does not extend under the guide. A rare cut that I would opt for using the table saw. If I needed to do this cut with the TS 75, let's say on a very long board, once again a scrap block would support the guide from tipping. I see big advantages in having a single round contact point in the guide rail braket for ease of alignment, an issue that the festool system fails to solve with much confidence. Can you please describe what procedure your tipping concerns would pertain to if I am missing something?
Thanks for your guys help it's extremely beneficial
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:10 AM by Sean KS »

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3554
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2013, 05:05 PM »
I am mostly doing small projects.  When crosscutting narrow stock, the guide rail will tip as the saw is moved towards the cut.  The rail will flatten as the saw passes over the stock being cut.  However, i place a couple of scraps under the suspended length of the rail and this eliminates the tipping problem.  It may be that the scraps are not necessary, but i am more comfortable in using them. 

Besides, it justifies keeping all of those scraps  ::)
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2013, 04:12 AM »
Does anyone have thoughts on a base design? I'm going with aluminum extrusions as a sub-base. This will keep the tops co-planer. I think the aluminum running parallel with the end caps, four lengths in total would suffice. The only other thing I'm thinking is to put a T-track in the subbase attached flush to the back of the long aprons. These tracks would allow for a sliding deadman to be easily placed flush with the apron.
Sub base issues aside does anyone see an issue with attaching the legs to the aluminum sub base with angle brackets? The aluminum is 80/20 inc and their catalogue has lots of brackets for this type of application. Do I need to worry about having the legs jointed up into the top structure?  Would simply butting them to the bottom of the top slab and rigidly attaching the sub-base to both parts work? My biggest concern is making sure I am deadening mallet blows through wood and not the aluminum.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2013, 09:57 AM »
Rmw and Michael, the reason I like locking the guide to the braket is cause I use the guide with a Mirco Fence interface for routing operations, such as hardwood dadoing or sliding dovetails. This action puts a good amount of torque on the guide rail and I'd be afraid of slipping off the HAR and coming out of alignment during te routing operation. The TS 75 doesn't cause concerns in the same regard. You guys have used the pins in real time, do you think my concerns are grounded in terms of routing operations? Thanks for your thoughts!

Corwin, What type of operations are you concerned about tipping occurring? In rip operations the work piece supports the guide rail so tipping can't happen then. Even in narrow rips using the incra positioner the guide rail has support. I can see certain routing operations causing worry but a piece of scrap material very simply remedies that worry. I can only guess your concerns are regarding cross cuts where the workpiece does not extend under the guide. A rare cut that I would opt for using the table saw. If I needed to do this cut with the TS 75, let's say on a very long board, once again a scrap block would support the guide from tipping. I see big advantages in having a single round contact point in the guide rail braket for ease of alignment, an issue that the festool system fails to solve with much confidence. Can you please describe what procedure your tipping concerns would pertain to if I am missing something?
Thanks for your guys help it's extremely beneficial

Sean,

For routing I think you would need to secure the rail to the pin/bracket/whatever you use. it is not a real issue with the TS for the most part and you can always use your off-hand to pull the rail into the pins/brackets while cutting. My earliest experiments with this approach used a couple simple plastic plates I cut by hand to accomplish this:

82842-0

82844-1

As long as the pin actually touches the rail rather than the plastic clip accuracy is maintained.

And Corwin is right-on that the rail will tip when cutting narrower stock, but as Wayne noted you can prevent this by supporting the ends with scraps of the same thickness stock you are cutting:

82846-2

Further to Corwin's point, there are trade-offs using this approach instead of, for example, Festool's own stock MFT hardware. In the case of DIY MFT-type benches the Festool hardware is probably not suitable so you need an alternate solution. In my case, I just did not like the height adjustment on the stock hardware nor did I like having a rail always mounted to my MFT so I chose to go this route and deal with the rail tipping as part of the trade-off.

Looking forward to seeing some more photos as this takes shape.

RMW
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 09:59 AM by RMW »
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2013, 05:26 PM »
How about a pre-built bracket? 80/20 has linear bearings as well, they come with a brake. The idea is to attach the bearing to the bench apron t track, then use a short length of extrusion to adjust the height of the guide rail. The extrusion does the same thing as RMW's guide pin. The extrusion can be locked to the guide rail using a concealed right angle connector offered by 80/20, so the system would work for routing via guide rail. As far as the tipping worries, the extrusions come in various widths. Therefore the bracket itself could support most of the width of the guide rail. It might be a expensive solution, around $120 but it's rock solid, light weight, low profile, no tipping, and easy to align. Best of all I don't have to build a darn thing!  

Offline Qwas

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 644
    • Qwas Products
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 08:38 PM »
Sorry for the late reply, I meant to respond this morning but got tied up on something else. I was intrigued by your linear bearing idea, that was some nice thinking. I have some of their linear bearings that were going to be used on another project (router base). So I went ahead and tried your idea on my MFT to see what would happen. This was a just a quick dirty attempt. I used the 25 series profiles, with a 25-2550 extrusion and I think it is 25-6424 linear bearing.

82926-0

First, let me tell you I was pleasantly surprised. Not only does it work but it works extremely well.  It slides up and down nice and smooth, with no binding. The plastic part of the bearing can be slightly adjusted to give a different amount of sliding to no sliding without pressure. I don't have the brake on mine so I wasn't able to test it.

Issues:
  • I tried mounting to the rail by using the holes on the ends of the extrusions. I would not try that again. You have the right idea of using a right angle connector.
  • The other issue was mounting to the table. My Plan was to use some knobs so I  can move the assembly. There is no space for any knobs and there is just enough space for a nut. Anticipate buying some spacers deeper than the bearing height so you can use some knobs.
  • My main concern would be sawdust getting the bearing. I would recommend making some type of a cover to keep the sawdust out.


Go ahead and try your idea, I think you will enjoy it.  [smile]
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:00 PM by Qwas »

Offline fritter63

  • Posts: 1342
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2013, 09:15 PM »
Sean, leave the slide vice mechanism out and just get some of the Festool MFT clamping elements. They work the same, but can be put anywhere on
the table where there are holes:

82928-0

82930-1

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2013, 04:26 AM »
Steve, Thank you for beta testing the idea. It's a huge help to know it'll work. As far as the issues you've seen: i think 80/20 sells bearing brushes that self clean the guide systems. If not I'll figure something out. For the knob issue, I'll either go with a thin aluminum mounting plate, or ratcheting levers from JB Wilco. I just have to check if they make ratchet levers that small. Hopefully there's no issue with the concealed right angle connector for attaching the guide rail. Again thanks so much for testing the idea!

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2013, 04:04 AM »
Does anyone know what the best way to attach an incra miter gauge to this thingy? This thing mimics the festool miter gauge bracket, and the incra miter gauge fits a top the aluminum extrusion. I just don't know how to get stainless to mate with aluminum. Thoughts?

Offline CarolinaNomad

  • Posts: 305
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2013, 12:31 PM »
 [popcorn]
Jeff
resides in NAINA

Offline Qwas

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 644
    • Qwas Products
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2013, 08:35 PM »
First let me say I have seen or used an Incra miter gauge so i have no idea what size their mounting hardware is. I will assume it is 1/4" or the gauge can be drilled out to accept it.

It looks like you using a 1003 profile with 3 slots. I would get rid of it and use a 1010 with 4 slots. This way you have an accurate slot on top to mount the Incra gauge to. Use the 1/4" T-slot nuts (part # 3382) to secure it.

If you don't want to get rid of the 1003 profile then use metal screws to mount the gauge, just be sure to be accurate when drilling the pilot holes for the screws.

Your biggest issue is going to be with the aux fence attached to the miter gauge. In order for it to fully swing in both directions you may need to mount the miter gauge onto a bracket like a 4141 and let the bracket extend slightly past the end of the 1010 profile.

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2013, 03:45 AM »
Steve,

Incra miter gauges use the miter slide bar to pivot the fence. This means all pivot action is controlled off of the miter slide bar itself. They are stainless steel so not too fun to machine. Regardless, I cut the bar so that it stopped before the cross cut fence but left all the pivoting mechanisms intact. This allows for a bracket, that holds the gauge to the fence, to be flipped giving enough height to accommodate the 1003. The cross cut fence sits flat on the bench with the bracket in this configuration. The Incra gauge can pivot fully so long it is mounted slightly ahead of the 1003, leaving a small gap to reach a 45 position. That being said, I am going to switch to a 1010 with the 4 t-slots. I don't have the ability to accurately machine the stainless with centered, tapped and counter sunk 1/4-20 holes, but I have a friend who can. Time to call in the friends, and call in amazon for a piece of 1010. Thanks as always Steve!
 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 03:49 AM by Sean KS »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2013, 05:51 AM »
I am playing around with a DIY leadscrew instead of an Incra positioner. Here's the mock up of the design. It uses an 80/20 rail with two linear bearings. One has a bronze bushing bored in, and the other has an aluminum plate that has been bored and tapped. The lead screw is pinned with 2 split nuts buffered with thrust washers. The system works well, just can't decide if the incra positioner would be better for anything? Thoughts?

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2013, 06:58 PM »
Here's why this bench is on a Festool forum. The aluminum to the right of the Guide rail acts as a rip fence or parallel guide. It's connected to the micro adjuster in the trough between the top slabs. Any thoughts on how wide the trough should be? I have room to play because of the 80/20 subframe.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2164
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2013, 09:02 PM »
I think i'd create some trays, maybe 6 or 8" wide and perhaps 2' long that could drop into the Roubo space and size the space to what feels right for your tools.

Chisels in slots, MFT clamps, dogs, glue bottles, pencils, tape measure, etc are all potential to outfit into a sliding tray.

neil

Offline Dave Lame

  • Posts: 77
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2014, 07:08 PM »
Sean: I admire your creativity and skill. Have a learned a great deal from this and other posts of yours.  Also learning a lot from RMW posts. I am planning 2 MFT rolling cabinets (plywood cabinets supporting MFT with folded legs) and would like to use some of your ideas. Will use Incra LS 25 (ordered last night) with 8020 fence). Will leave rail in one place and move workpiece as needed. Guide rail mounted with standard Festool hardware. Adjoining router table will be 8020 base with JesEm fence, lift, phenolic top, and accessories.

Would like to use Incra miter on MFT rather than Festool protractor but wondering is feasible to modify standard Festool protractor mounting hardware or possibly rout t track in standard MFT top for Incra miter?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Dave

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2014, 04:25 AM »
Thanks Dave, I have lots of time to think about this project and very little to execute it. It's a dangerous combination and I've ended up with this thing.

I've looked at the festool protractor but don't own one. I'm scanning through some pictures and I think that you might be able to use the festool bracket. You would have to check one measurement: the maximum height the incra angle bracket (connects protractor to fence) would allow. I can get that measurement for you if you don't have an incra kicking around the shop. From there you can drill through the festool aluminum extrusion at the same points the incra protractor would normally attach its own miter slider. I can't remember how many drilled and tapped holes this is, but it'd be some rather tight tolerances. I'd say its very doable. It's really just dependent on that one measurement between the festool sliding aluminum extrusion and the table surface.
As far as routing in a miter slot. You have to make sure the bench surface will clear the aluminum side rails by the height of the miter bar. You would also have to laminate support to the bottom of the bench surface. Those incra miter slots are around 1/2" in height, which doesn't leave much meat on the underside. Then you have those locking bars which are okay at best. They work for restriction of movement on a crosscut sled. But I don't know if I'd trust them for positive referencing. Plus they use tiny set screws that would need very frequent replacement under this application stress. I vote for a modified festool bracket if you plan on using mft side rails. Or a custom bracket solution which is really not very hard to pull off. I'm a Colorado boy myself, FOG Coloradans seem pretty regular on the site
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 04:28 AM by Sean KS »

Offline B_Swanson

  • Posts: 45
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2014, 07:35 AM »
The first TS cut on that workbench might bring a tear to my eye.  Nice work.. 

Offline Dave Lame

  • Posts: 77
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2014, 05:41 PM »
Sean,

Studied photos of the your saw and miter brackets again. I think I can copy your design.  Thanks for your help.

Next time I am in Boulder (usually make it there once a year) would be happy to buy you lunch.

Dave

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2014, 03:56 PM »
Dave

I'm building another rail bracket this weekend. I'll take pics of the build process and post them

Offline Michael_Swe

  • Posts: 361
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2014, 11:43 AM »
I really like your build. That bench will serve you well. You will of course have it in your living room. No way you're going to use tools on that table, are you?  [scared]

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2014, 04:59 AM »
How do you say backhanded complement in Sweedish?! Thanks Michael, I have to say your boom arm build showed me that functional tools can look beautiful too. So maybe I should ship my bench to your living room to say thanks. You'll just have to find those festool throw pillows you've been looking for!

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2014, 03:46 AM »
I'm coming close completing the project, I'm tinkering with the rip fence. My original thought was an Incra adjuster in the split. I'm playing with a Woodpeckers' micro adjuster. It's much smaller and easier to removed if needed. I can still go with an Incra solution if the Woodpeckers' fails to fit the bill. The fence reaches all the way to the cutting edge of the guide rail and only stands 1/2" tall. I need to complete an apron attachment bracket to lock the rip fence down really well. I'm waiting on parts from JW Winco.

The other part that I need to finish is the miter gauge. I would like the fence to extend at least to the end rail to attach it. Although I like the Incra Shop Stop, I think that it could be improved if micro adjustment could be accessed directly next to the guide rail. I've contacted a local company Fiero Fluid Power, who are going to help draw up my design to be milled. The gist is using a 10 series 80/20 with a linear bearing that is attached to a lead screw. The lead screw adjustment knob would be on the guide rail side of the miter fence. The linear bearing would move as you turn the lead screw adjustment knob. The bearing itself is able to release from the threads to be macro adjusted then re-engaged for micro adjustment. The bearing would have a hinged stop block on the material handling side of the fence. Ill post the CAD drawings when the come back from Fiero.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 02:57 AM by Sean KS »

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3357
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2014, 08:35 AM »
Sean, that is such a beautiful build.  I think I'd have a heart attack if I laid my TS 55 in the guide track, even if there was no power cord plugged in. 

 [scared]

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2014, 04:38 AM »
After not liking my first attempt with the woodpeckers rip fence adjuster I bit the bullet and got another Incra 32" LS Positioner. I much prefer the results.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 05:05 AM by Sean KS »

Offline amt

  • Posts: 363
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2014, 11:25 AM »
This has inspired me to try parts from the Incra miter 5000 on my own home made MFT.  One question I had from your last picture:  Are you able to reach all the way across to make a full cut?  Or can you easily move the saw from the right side to make a cut?

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2014, 07:19 PM »
I step around the right side of the bench and walk with the saw for a full 5' rip cut. Let me also say I am 25 years old and usually just kneel up onto the bench from the stretcher. In a few more years I might do the walk around more often, I placed the kerf strip to accommodate a comfortable reach. Good luck with your project, happy to hear someone is taking their Incra's apart and using the components. Great stuff to be had inside their tools.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 05:02 AM by Sean KS »

Offline kylehalchin

  • Posts: 2
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2015, 02:11 PM »
I'm coming close completing the project, I'm tinkering with the rip fence. My original thought was an Incra adjuster in the split. I'm playing with a Woodpeckers' micro adjuster. It's much smaller and easier to removed if needed. I can still go with an Incra solution if the Woodpeckers' fails to fit the bill. The fence reaches all the way to the cutting edge of the guide rail and only stands 1/2" tall. I need to complete an apron attachment bracket to lock the rip fence down really well. I'm waiting on parts from JW Winco.

The other part that I need to finish is the miter gauge. I would like the fence to extend at least to the end rail to attach it. Although I like the Incra Shop Stop, I think that it could be improved if micro adjustment could be accessed directly next to the guide rail. I've contacted a local company Fiero Fluid Power, who are going to help draw up my design to be milled. The gist is using a 10 series 80/20 with a linear bearing that is attached to a lead screw. The lead screw adjustment knob would be on the guide rail side of the miter fence. The linear bearing would move as you turn the lead screw adjustment knob. The bearing itself is able to release from the threads to be macro adjusted then re-engaged for micro adjustment. The bearing would have a hinged stop block on the material handling side of the fence. Ill post the CAD drawings when the come back from Fiero.

Sean, where did you find the apron bracket mounting piece and the pieces that clamp the 8020 down?

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2015, 02:14 PM »
Which part are we talking about? The slide bearing for the rail? That part is a 80/20 linear bearing
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 02:39 PM by Sean KS »

Offline fotojoe

  • Posts: 5
    • Really Right Stuff
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2017, 10:29 AM »
@Sean KS
Sean, what a fine table. I'm going to build a stay-at-shop table and will incorporate much of your thinking. Question: what material did you use for the inlaid kerf guard? Looks like white nylon or Delrin. I assume you fabricated this with the dovetail profile. Where did you buy the raw material? Thanks so much for sharing. Joe
Have: TS 75 EQ, RO 150 FEQ, CXS Set, CT 36E
Want: DF 700 EQ, MFT/3, more Systainers

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2017, 02:03 PM »
fotojoe,

UHMW Sheet

I'm pretty sure I got it at Woodcraft, but you can find the stuff lots of places. Hope that helps, have fun with the build.

Offline fotojoe

  • Posts: 5
    • Really Right Stuff
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2017, 08:14 PM »
@Sean KS
Sean, I've been studying your beautiful bench.  I see you completed the project a few years ago now. If you can spare a moment I hope you could respond to some more questions:
1. Desired Changes: After living with the workbench for a while and hopefully having a chance to use it a fair amount, what would you change, if anything?
2. Dog Holes: I see in the original sketch-up you were planning to put CNC-machined dog holes in both sides but only put them on the side with the wagon vise. Do you find you use the holes much? Are you happy with having the holes on the one side only?
3. Seasonal Expansion/Contraction: Your original plan was to use 3"-thick slabs (looks like maple). I also see that you wrapped the slabs on all sides with an apron and I wonder if seasonal expansion/contraction has caused any issues with the apron joints at the ends of the slabs?
4. Dog Hole Layout: You mentioned that your holes are 3/4" diameter so you could use Qwas dogs. I'm assuming the holes are bored all the way through the slabs. Are they on 4" centers? Do you ever use them to index 45 degree cuts or for calibrating your miter fence? If so, I expect that seasonal movement (see #3) may throw the hole positions very slightly out of square (more movement across the bench vs longitudinally) -- have you noticed anything like that?
Thanks again for sharing. I see that your build is one of the most popular on this site -- a testament to your novel hybrid design. Joe
Have: TS 75 EQ, RO 150 FEQ, CXS Set, CT 36E
Want: DF 700 EQ, MFT/3, more Systainers

Offline Sean KS

  • Posts: 90
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2017, 01:33 AM »
@fotojoe
Sean, I've been studying your beautiful bench.  I see you completed the project a few years ago now. If you can spare a moment I hope you could respond to some more questions:

1. Desired Changes: After living with the workbench for a while and hopefully having a chance to use it a fair amount, what would you change, if anything?


Honestly it does the things I want it to do. I built it very slowly over the course of 2 years. So I gave myself a lot of time to think before I acted. I messed up the mounting of the wagon vise a little bit, it's not as clean of a cut out as I would've liked, but other than that, no complaints.

2. Dog Holes: I see in the original sketch-up you were planning to put CNC-machined dog holes in both sides but only put them on the side with the wagon vise. Do you find you use the holes much? Are you happy with having the holes on the one side only?


I'm really happy with the choice of only putting dog holes on one side. There are plenty of them to do alignment tasks with. And having the other side be free of holes and the wagon vise comes in handy constantly. Like not dropping small parts and hardware, or being able to use the t-tracks on either end cap for a long rail task.

3. Seasonal Expansion/Contraction: Your original plan was to use 3"-thick slabs (looks like maple). I also see that you wrapped the slabs on all sides with an apron and I wonder if seasonal expansion/contraction has caused any issues with the apron joints at the ends of the slabs?

The slab that forms the top is not a solid wood slab. It is made up of rock maple, hardboard, and plywood, in that order. The total thickness of the epoxy laminated slab is 2 3/4". Then the rails wraps that. The rails have loose tenon joinery and the wagon vise end cap has double loose tenons with brass draw bores. The rails are attached to the top with 4" bolts, there are mortises on the underside of the bench every 8" that allow the nut to slide in. The holes for the bolts are bored oversized to allow for movement. I used self locking nuts, that have not come loose due to vibration or mallet blows and the likes. Because of how I built the slab, the main "field" of the top does not expand and contract very much (it's not a machining surface, it needs to be flat enough for woodworking, which varies dramatically from woodworker to woodworker based on their particular tastes and techniques.) The apron joints have held nicely visually, and any little changes have not cause problems with functionality. I'll also add that the bench lives in a climate controlled shop. If it was sitting in a garage or otherwise exposed to huge temperature/humidity changes I would probably see problems.

4. Dog Hole Layout: You mentioned that your holes are 3/4" diameter so you could use Qwas dogs. I'm assuming the holes are bored all the way through the slabs. Are they on 4" centers? Do you ever use them to index 45 degree cuts or for calibrating your miter fence? If so, I expect that seasonal movement (see #3) may throw the hole positions very slightly out of square (more movement across the bench vs longitudinally) -- have you noticed anything like that?

Sizing and spacing on the dogs is correct. I index everything off of them, miter fence, rip fence, router set-ups of all sorts. They are accurate to a degree that it does not change my workflow (as in if it is slightly different season to season, the changes are not enough to notice in my work.) This is the main reason I did not make the top out of solid wood. That being said, I am not in the habit of taking something right from a power tool to assembly. Most everything gets hit with a plane or a chisel before it forms a joint of any kind. That being said, it's accurate enough to cross cut bed rails with just a locating pin on either end of the stock. In that scenario I had no visible light when I checked the cut against a Starrett square. That is square enough for my needs.

Thanks again for sharing. I see that your build is one of the most popular on this site -- a testament to your novel hybrid design. Joe

Hope that helps Joe, Sean

Offline fotojoe

  • Posts: 5
    • Really Right Stuff
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2017, 12:03 PM »
@Sean KS
Sean, thanks again for sharing your experience. Joe
Have: TS 75 EQ, RO 150 FEQ, CXS Set, CT 36E
Want: DF 700 EQ, MFT/3, more Systainers

Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 859
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2017, 02:40 PM »
Yes I remember this

Really cool

I've still not cut into my MFWB

I probably will soon

Mick

Offline dgruening

  • Posts: 2
Re: Split Top Roubo MFT with Benchcrafted, Incra and 80/20
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2017, 01:49 PM »
@Sean KS

Is there any chance that you'd publish a video walkthrough of your workbench to further illustrate to us visual learners?

Thanks