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« on: September 14, 2009, 05:48 PM » |
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OK,
I have learned on this forum how to square the fence to the guide rail very accurately, quickly, and easily. Unfortunately it involved the use of a 18" by 10" square which goes for $160. Thats a tad high for me. Are there less expensive alternatives which are still accurate.
Thanks for your suggestions.
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Tom Bellemare
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Location: Austin, Texas - USA Member Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 3570
Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 06:07 PM » |
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Use the holes in the tabletop. You can see how I do it here. Some derivation of this method should fit your budget. Tom
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 12:27 AM by Tom Bellemare »
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MarkF
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Location: Concord, NC Member Since: Jan 2007
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Concord, NC
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 06:42 PM » |
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Frank Pellow has a great thread using the Black and Decker Workmate dogs ($8/pk of 4 on Amazon) in the MFT holes. http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=5602.0I use an 18", 45 degree acrylic drafting trangle elevated 1/2" above the table with a scrap of 1/2" plywood to make contact with the sawguide and the miter rail. The longest one I have found is here: http://www.dickblick.com/products/blick-triangles/  
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 10:53 PM by MarkF »
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Jay Evans
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Apr 2007
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 08:24 PM » |
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For around $20 US you can buy a Starrett brand Framing Square, which is a very handy thing to have if you are doing this type of work. Starrett brand is excellent quality and should be very precise for a framing square. Woodcraft sells them, just do a Google search. Jay
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CharlesWilson
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Location: Newington, CT Member Since: Jan 2007
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 12:13 AM » |
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I use a reasonably large rectangle of 3/4" MDF that has one corner precisely cut to 90 degrees (marked of course so I know which corner is 'true').
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Charles Wilson
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 07:12 AM » |
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This square is thick enough to bridge the gap between the table and the guide rail whenever the guide rail is resting on top of the fence. This is the square I have and I use it for this application as well as many others because I can take advantage of how thick it is. This is actually the square Festool used at the training class to demo how to square up the fence on the MFT/3
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MarkF
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Location: Concord, NC Member Since: Jan 2007
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Concord, NC
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 09:01 AM » |
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Impressive that Woodpeckers guarantee an aluminum square.
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 09:28 AM » |
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I think the company that makes them guarantee them? Pinnacle makes those squares and they are out of Cleveland Ohio. Woodcraft tried to tell me that they only make those squares for Woodcraft stores but woodpeckers sells them also but they are red instead of black..
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Charimon
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Location: Omaha NE Member Since: Jun 2008
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Tool and Tile Junkie
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 11:06 AM » |
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I think the company that makes them guarantee them? Pinnacle makes those squares and they are out of Cleveland Ohio. Woodcraft tried to tell me that they only make those squares for Woodcraft stores but woodpeckers sells them also but they are red instead of black..
Dave did you know that Pinnicle makes a router top for the MFT here is the old thread http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=2462.0;allCraig
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"The existence of the flame thrower proves that at one time, somewhere, somebody said, " You Know, There's a group of people over there that I'd like to set on fire right now but they're too far away."
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 11:32 AM » |
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No I didn't, thanks for pointing that out.
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Rick Christopherson
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 02:57 PM » |
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Actually, you should never use a square for calibrating a fence or tool of any type, as the method is not very accurate and relies on the assumed accuracy of the square. If you want to check the square on the fence-to-rail, then you should use the 4-cut method. This is described in detail with pictures and calculator in the Kapex manual. http://www.waterfront-woods.com/festool/This method takes the actual error of the rail-to-fence square, and multiplies it (compounds it) by 4 to make it easier to see and measure. It is a very simple method and does not rely on any external reference.
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2009, 03:00 PM » |
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Can't you just check your square before you set it up?
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Rey Johnson
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA Member Since: Aug 2007
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Fine Sawdust Maker
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 04:06 PM » |
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Actually, you should never use a square for calibrating a fence or tool of any type, as the method is not very accurate and relies on the assumed accuracy of the square.
Rick, your statement seems pretty extreme. It seems to me that the accuracy acheived using a square can be as accurate as the square. When you start out with "You should never..." I'm expecting a finish like ... "put your hand in the path of a moving saw blade". I think that if your square is square, then you are squared away. It been that way for me.  Rey
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wnagle
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Location: Akron, Ohio USA Member Since: Apr 2008
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 04:52 PM » |
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I'm with you on this one Rick. Even if my square is dead on I get a much more accurate result using the 4 cut method. I set my kapex, MFT/3, and crosscut sleds with this method.
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Wayne
TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120.
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mastercabman
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 06:42 PM » |
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Talking about squares,How accurate are those T square for drywall hanging?
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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Rick Christopherson
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2009, 07:35 PM » |
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Rick, your statement seems pretty extreme. It seems to me that the accuracy acheived using a square can be as accurate as the square.
While my statement may seem extreme, if you are going out and buying a $100 square (as someone stated earlier) to square your tools, then it is not extreme. The method I mention is more accurate than the $100 square, and from that perspective, it is not extreme. If you don't need accuracies greater than plus or minus 1 degree, then a framing square and eye-balling are sufficient. But on something as long as a TS guide rail, even that $100 square coupled with "eye-balling" will not give you very accurate results. I may use a square to check the square of a workpiece, but I will never use a square to calibrate the tool that I use to create that workpiece.
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
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« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2009, 07:39 PM » |
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Talking about squares,How accurate are those T square for drywall hanging?
Nope, those thing aren't very accurate. Great tools for drywall or floor or roof sheeting, not much use beyond that.
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mastercabman
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Location: norfolk va Member Since: Apr 2007
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NORFOLK,VA
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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2009, 08:01 PM » |
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Talking about squares,How accurate are those T square for drywall hanging?
Nope, those thing aren't very accurate. Great tools for drywall or floor or roof sheeting, not much use beyond that. That's what i was thinking! I was working on a project and i had one of those moment,"why do i feel this is not square?"I use everything that i have to check for squareness and then use one of those T square and ...and...well i went home!
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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bonesbr549
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Location: Pottstown PA Member Since: Jan 2008
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 08:24 PM » |
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Here's what I use. I picked them up at woodcraft for 39 bucks they have been really handy and I keep them in my wooden case. They are good to .00015 wich is good enough for a medium that moves on its own. http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020413/21000/3-Piece-Engineer-s-Square-Set-with-Case.aspx
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 08:27 PM by bonesbr549 »
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ForumMFG
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2009, 08:38 PM » |
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I bought these squares from woodcraft, took them home and tested them. All but 1 was close to being square, I took them back. I will never buy a 3 pack of squares for 39 bucks again. You get what you pay for.
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MarkF
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Location: Concord, NC Member Since: Jan 2007
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Concord, NC
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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2009, 09:33 PM » |
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One of the reasons I use an 18", 45 degree drafting triangle is that both legs are almost as long as the sawguide. Both legs of the square need to be long to amplify any discrepancies. I still do a test cut, flip, test cut and compare each end on a scrap. Always within 1/128th". I'm with Rick and would not trust a short or a medium length square with a short handle (even of the ultimate quality) to be the end all reference for setting the MFT sawguide. I did spy one of these on my wife's sewing room cutting table. Hmmmmm? http://www.creativegridsusa.com/products/cgr20
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bonesbr549
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Location: Pottstown PA Member Since: Jan 2008
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I'd rather be woodworking
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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2009, 10:48 PM » |
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I bought these squares from woodcraft, took them home and tested them. All but 1 was close to being square, I took them back. I will never buy a 3 pack of squares for 39 bucks again. You get what you pay for. Mine were fine. I tested them at work on a piece of test equipment granite slab (calibrates) and a steele set up triangle that is machined 45/90. It was within the specificed tollerences. Even if it had been lets say .0003 it would still be dead on for wood. I have made numerous pieces using these squares and all joints have been perfect. I think some times we get way to focused on taking things to .000000000000 decimal places for accuracy. After a certain point it just don't matter. Don't get me wrong if people want to go to that extreme hey have at it. I just don't see the point.
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
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« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2009, 07:24 AM » |
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I'm not that picky, when I say they were not close to square, I am talking that they were extremely far off..
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Alex
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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2009, 07:44 AM » |
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I'm not that picky, when I say they were not close to square, I am talking that they were extremely far off..
Hard to believe. Even the cheapest of production techniques will deliver reasonably square objects. And 39 bucks isn't cheap at all. You can by these things cheap for a dollar and a half out of china and even they are to some extent usable. How many micrometer is "extremely far off" for you? 
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2009, 07:51 AM » |
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Yeah, I'll go back to woodcraft and get those squares. Then I'll ship them to you and have to make something with it, you'll have fun 
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bonesbr549
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Location: Pottstown PA Member Since: Jan 2008
Posts: 525
I'd rather be woodworking
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« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2009, 09:41 AM » |
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I guess quality control had an issue. The ones I have said made in india. Acutally the small on comes in handy and I keep in my shirt pocket for a quick check. To be honest I threw my jacobs speed square up against the large one and it was pretty dead on. The were a couple areas that I could have put a feeler gauge under, but I was surprised at how close the old speed square was and I've had it for years and its seen quite a bit of construction and been banged around with the tool belt. I was visiting a woodcraft store in VA and on the half off was a nice 6" woodpecker square that was half off at 40 bucks. I'm still kicking myself for not getting it.
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Rey Johnson
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA Member Since: Aug 2007
Posts: 392
Fine Sawdust Maker
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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2009, 10:34 AM » |
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I use the Wixey protractor in this situation.  This has worked for me. Rey
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:35 AM by Rey Johnson »
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ForumMFG
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2009, 11:51 AM » |
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How much does something like that run?
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Alex
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2009, 12:08 PM » |
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Yeah, I'll go back to woodcraft and get those squares. Then I'll ship them to you and have to make something with it, you'll have fun  Sure go ahead. Need my address?
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