Author Topic: Track saw square for sheet stock  (Read 7387 times)

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Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Track saw square for sheet stock
« on: March 29, 2017, 01:01 PM »
I made this square for cutting full sheets of ply square and miter cutting counters and other large projects that can not be taken to the MFT or miter saw. I have seen a few track saw squares but they seem to be directed towards smaller pieces although I have not used them so can't say how they will work on full sheets.

It has a small Parf dog with a 8mm pin in it to index the fence on 5 degree increments. The fence can be set at any angle between the 5 degree marks and locked down with the indicator locking knob. I would like to get some feedback on it in terms of is this something people would find useful. I am selling them for $225.00 just to give you a perspective because the cost will affect weather or not people see it as something they would use.

It is all cut on the cnc and is incredibly accurate. I have tried other materials for the main square but have come back to 12mm baltic birch because it is stable strong and light. I could use the phenolic ply but that would add cost and weight? The wood portion is 28" and it has a 4' fence giving lots of bearing surface on the sheet for reference.

Any feedback is appreciated and if anybody in Southern Alberta would like to give one a try shoot me a PM and we will see what we can work out.

Thanks,
Gerry 
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

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Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 711
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 04:43 PM »
In the second photo if the indicator is currently on 90° then
where is the first hole? It looks like it's at 86° to me.
Counting clockwise from 90 I get 86, or am I missing something.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline TOOLTOWN

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    • tooltown.com
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2017, 05:20 PM »
If you look at the first picture, the hole is not centered on the referenced line, it is offset by one.

Ken

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2017, 08:57 PM »
In the second photo if the indicator is currently on 90° then
where is the first hole? It looks like it's at 86° to me.
Counting clockwise from 90 I get 86, or am I missing something.

Hi Bob,

The fence reference pin centers on the hole but the walnut indicator is at 90. The angle text is below the line so the line above the 85 is the indicator for 85 degrees and the fence is centered on the hole. There is a 10 mm offset from the center of the hole to the edge of the fence. Once you use it once it all make sense............I hope  [eek]

Thanks,
Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Kirk28

  • Posts: 6
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 07:12 PM »
Gerry:
Nice product. I don't do enough sheet-goods cuts to warrant buying this, but others might. Could you discuss, or show a picture of, the black part that attaches the protractor to the track? Does it allow the track to be slid "in and out" during the cut setup? Did you make the part, or buy it? I have a project idea that I haven't throughly thought out. Thanks.
Kirk

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 07:59 PM »
Gerry:
Nice product. I don't do enough sheet-goods cuts to warrant buying this, but others might. Could you discuss, or show a picture of, the black part that attaches the protractor to the track? Does it allow the track to be slid "in and out" during the cut setup? Did you make the part, or buy it? I have a project idea that I haven't throughly thought out. Thanks.
Kirk

Hi Kirk,

When the protractor is mounted on a track it is not hard to handle at all but it is designed for sheets. Yes you can slide the track on the connectors, when you do miters you need to pull it back enough to set the saw on. I use a 75" track most of the time. I have attached a picture of the connector. The depth of cut is just slightly less where the connector mounts on the track so there is a small step  on the bottom. This keeps the bottom of the square even with the bottom of the track.

HTH
Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline TOOLTOWN

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Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017, 01:05 AM »
Gerry,

I really like the concept of your square and the preset "detents" for adjustability.  I'm going to show this to the boss tomorrow and see about getting approval to work with you as a distributor.  (If that is something you would be interested in)

Ken

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2017, 10:12 AM »
Gerry,

I really like the concept of your square and the preset "detents" for adjustability.  I'm going to show this to the boss tomorrow and see about getting approval to work with you as a distributor.  (If that is something you would be interested in)

Ken

Hi Ken,

I'll reply to this by email.

Thanks,
Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2017, 01:28 PM »
So is the $225 price including the rail or just the square and attachment hardware? Price seems very high for CNC wood. And saying it's square because it came off a CNC is no guarantee on wood.

I bought the Anderson square and that thing was more than 0.01" off which is a lot for CNC "accuracy."

Personally the spring loaded latch that connects the TSO square is by far the simplest, most accurate connection to a rail I have seen.

While the product idea has great merit, reducing the number of parts would help and possibly a much longer lasting material than the birch ply. Why not 1/4" HDPE. That cuts like wood, will hold it's shape for life more than ply and have no seasonal movement, and not expensive as well.

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback.
"So is the $225 price including the rail or just the square and attachment hardware?" The price is for the square and all the hardware not the saw track.

"Price seems very high for CNC wood." I have over $50.00 in hardware into the piece. The fence has 3 holes that must be drilled very accurately in order to connect to the square and index correctly. The attachment pieces are milled to close tolerances to insure accuracy. It is deceptively complicated to build.

"And saying it's square because it came off a CNC is no guarantee on wood." Or any other material for that matter. All materials expand and contract at different rates. (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html) I considered using other materials but the size of the square makes aluminum quite a expensive option and that is the only other material that seems viable. I have found the square to be very accurate I think mostly because of the size. It has 48" of bearing surface on the fence and the attachment points on the rail are 23" apart. The degree increments are just about .5" apart so splitting a 1/4 degree is not an issue. In regard to the accuracy of the wood, birch ply is as stable as mdf that the MFT tables are made from. Also the strength to weight relationship is very high. HDPE expands a lot with temperature changes I did look at a lot of the plastics.

"I bought the Anderson square and that thing was more than 0.01" off which is a lot for CNC "accuracy" I agree that is not acceptable but have no idea why that would be. CNC routers are just like any other piece of machinery they must be maintained to insure accurate results.

"Personally the spring loaded latch that connects the TSO square is by far the simplest, most accurate connection to a rail I have seen." I like them also and looked at them and have some here but because of the size and design of the square I could not use them.

"While the product idea has great merit, reducing the number of parts would help and possibly a much longer lasting material than the birch ply. Why not 1/4" HDPE. That cuts like wood, will hold it's shape for life more than ply and have no seasonal movement, and not expensive as well." HDPE does not have a great coefficient of expansion is heavier and more expensive than birch ply. I would like to reduce the number of parts but have not found a way to do that.

Hope that helps answer some of you questions and once again I do appreciate the feedback. The protractor is very light and easy to maneuver around in use and as I say it has proven to be accurate in use.

Thanks,
Gerry 

Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Kirk28

  • Posts: 6
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 05:43 PM »
Gerry:
Nice product. I don't do enough sheet-goods cuts to warrant buying this, but others might. Could you discuss, or show a picture of, the black part that attaches the protractor to the track? Does it allow the track to be slid "in and out" during the cut setup? Did you make the part, or buy it? I have a project idea that I haven't throughly thought out. Thanks.
Kirk

Hi Kirk,

When the protractor is mounted on a track it is not hard to handle at all but it is designed for sheets. Yes you can slide the track on the connectors, when you do miters you need to pull it back enough to set the saw on. I use a 75" track most of the time. I have attached a picture of the connector. The depth of cut is just slightly less where the connector mounts on the track so there is a small step  on the bottom. This keeps the bottom of the square even with the bottom of the track.

HTH
Gerry

Gerry:
Sweet. Thanks for posting the images
Kirk

Offline TSO Products

  • Retailer
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  • Posts: 508
    • TSO Products
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2017, 12:07 AM »
Gerry and I have talked about his excellent approach to his needs. He is a PRO, for sure. The reson I reached out to him is because we are now just days from launching our Precision 18  Triangles with the MTR-18 aiming right at the accurate angle setting issues we have been hearing for quite some time now.
One point Gerry makes is the benefit of the sheer size of his protractor - BINGO! - size matters a lot. For this reason our built in protractor feature on the MTR-18 will impress with its size compared to the protractor head on the MFT.

We will be very interested to see our first Triangles shipping to customer who want not just a great 18" Triangle but are also interested in the capability to set  really accurate angles on 20mm style worktops like the MFT-3 and other accurately manufactured 20mm worktops.
More on this project in our next TSO INSIDER Newsletter a week from now.

Hans
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2017, 02:59 PM »
Gerry and I have talked about his excellent approach to his needs. He is a PRO, for sure. The reson I reached out to him is because we are now just days from launching our Precision 18  Triangles with the MTR-18 aiming right at the accurate angle setting issues we have been hearing for quite some time now.
One point Gerry makes is the benefit of the sheer size of his protractor - BINGO! - size matters a lot. For this reason our built in protractor feature on the MTR-18 will impress with its size compared to the protractor head on the MFT.

We will be very interested to see our first Triangles shipping to customer who want not just a great 18" Triangle but are also interested in the capability to set  really accurate angles on 20mm style worktops like the MFT-3 and other accurately manufactured 20mm worktops.
More on this project in our next TSO INSIDER Newsletter a week from now.

Hans
info@tsoproducts.com

Hi Hans,

 I look forward to seeing your new products. It was good to talk shop with you.

I have a few of my protractors in the hands of local shops and all the feedback has been good. I will be making some cosmetic changes to the protractor but over all it does what it was designed to do very well.

My standard Q&D test for square on my panel saw is to rip the 8' edge straight then cut one end off then flip the sheet so I cut off the same edge when cutting the other end. This results in double the error when measuring the length on each edge. This is what I had done with my protractor. I decided yesterday to use the 5 cut method to check the square on a 42" square sheet. The protractor I checked was within .004" of square on the 42". Considering this was done with a hand held saw on a hand held track that is well within what I would be happy with.

In regards to the size I think it comes down to the right tool for the job. I have a little 3" Veritas square I carry in my pouch that I would not want to be without but it sure isn't the only square I use in the shop ;) 


Thanks,
Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline TSO Products

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  • Posts: 508
    • TSO Products
Re: Track saw square for sheet stock
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2017, 03:21 PM »
@Oldwood - right, Gerry, just like your example, my Bridge City Try Square is not the only one in our shop. There's an optimal size fore every job.

For our MTR-18 Multifunction Triangle we are looking for early adopter customers to put these tools to work for actual angle-setting work in a variety of angles besides the everyday 90/45 cuts.
We would welcome hearing from any interested FOG readers now.

Hans
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions