Author Topic: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT  (Read 5768 times)

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Offline simonh

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TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« on: April 11, 2018, 05:58 AM »
I bought a TSO GRS16-PE for cutting large sheets square.

Then I had a thought. Can this be used on the MFT instead of the stock fence (with repeatability issues) or parf/rail dogs (often reducing the cut width of the MFT and relying on the CNC hole pattern). I took a look and it had the perfect size thread to go onto the MFT flip rail bracket (unfortunately only 1 screw location will fit instead of 2).

It makes a quick setup with guaranteed squareness between the fence (GRS) and rail. I checked with a Woodpeckers 1280 it's good.

The idea of having it mounted is that it can be quickly flipped up and down when cutting lots of smaller pieces and saves cutting through all over the table which would occur if I used it manually for each cut.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 06:05 AM by simonh »

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2018, 07:37 AM »
Great Discovery!  @TSO Products

Peter

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2018, 07:48 AM »
@Simon H  - leave it to customers to find new uses or special needs!
 We will look into this and try it ourselves to see where to take this idea.

Stay tuned and thanks for sharing
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline SoonerFan

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2018, 10:17 PM »
Good idea.  Always seem to find clever things like this on FOG.  Thanks for sharing.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2018, 10:34 PM »
any FOG member interested in this feature on a production GRS-16 PE, please email us  (not PM via FOG) us  with the subject line of this thread:
                   TSO GRS-16 + MFT

email to: info@tsoproducts.com

You will hear from us individually off-line

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline John Stevens

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  • Ardmore, PA
Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 09:48 PM »
Hmmm, years ago my experience with the MFT led me to abandon it as a cuttting table.  The TSO GRS is an awesome product for using the FEstool track saw without the MFT.  But your idea is intriguing.  Thanks for sharing, Iill give it a try.

—John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Online Bigdaddy65

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 10:33 PM »
How were you able to raise the rail and keep it square with only 1 screw?

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 11:25 PM »
How were you able to raise the rail and keep it square with only 1 screw?

Looking at the arrangement I believe the 2 pieces work together. Even if the square rotates a little the rail moves with it, keeping them square.

Tom

Offline simonh

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2018, 03:14 PM »
The TSO connects square to the rail automatically when you lock the clamp on the TSO. That's the great thing, it doesn't matter if the rail is kept square to the table or slops around, just make sure you push the wood tight up against the TSO square and you're guaranteed a square cut.

Online Bigdaddy65

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 10:47 PM »
The TSO connects square to the rail automatically when you lock the clamp on the TSO. That's the great thing, it doesn't matter if the rail is kept square to the table or slops around, just make sure you push the wood tight up against the TSO square and you're guaranteed a square cut.

Right, I’ll try to clarify. When raising the rail with only the one screw holding the GRS on the bracket what keeps the rail and square from rotating right or left?

Offline Jmacpherson

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2018, 05:21 AM »
@simonh or anyone else on this thread, correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly...

You are only using the rear clamp on the MFT and not using the front the clamp at all?
Based on how the TSO square attaches to the rail, you are guaranteed a square cut (as long the wood is flush to the TSO square) thereby negating the need for the front clamp?


Offline simonh

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 06:21 AM »
@Jmacpherson I still use the front clamp as it helps support the rail and ensures you are cutting in the same kerf on the table.  It doesn't matter if you do or don't use it, or what angle the track is to the table. As the TSO and rail form a perfect 90 degree so long as you push the wood up against the TSO you will get a square cut.

I cut some expensive phenolic on it the other day and it came out perfect!  I found a couple of advantages over the usual fence/rail setup:

1) The TSO references off the top edge of the wood so is much less likely to get affected by sawdust or other bits getting stuck between the workpiece and fence rail on the standard MFT setup.

2) As you lift the rail higher the TSO is still referencing off the top edge of your wood. Whereas with the standard rail/fence setup is usually squared flat on the table I'm sure it all becomes slightly out of square when you raise the rail higher as I have repeatability issues even though I've triple checked the setup. No such issue with the TSO.

Offline Jmacpherson

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2018, 02:15 PM »
Thanks for the detailed explanation @simonh
Now I'm tempted to get the GRS-16PE and give it a try :D

Offline John Stevens

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2018, 09:35 PM »
@JmacphersonI found a couple of advantages over the usual fence/rail setup:
3)  If you want to move the fence closer or farther away to accommodate stock of different sizes, the TSO fence will make that fast and easy, with no need to re-square. I think that’ll make a big difference for me.

—John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Offline heidtwd

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 08:39 AM »
I tried this and it's great!
I really like that you can quickly remove the track when you want it out of the way and just as quickly put it back on in perfect square.
Beats having the track sticking straight up in the air!
Good for you, @simonh!

Offline Jmacpherson

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2018, 01:47 PM »
I just opened up my new GRS-16 PE and looks like TSO have made some adjustments.

There are 2x holes in-line with "bump" that slides into the slot on the bottom side of the rail.
I did a dry alignment and those 2x holes line up perfectly with the 2x holes/screws on the rear bracket of the MFT/3.

Looking at the original images of the PE those holes were not there.

Thanks you @TSO Products


Online Bigdaddy65

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2018, 07:08 AM »
Is it possible to have the new hole added an older version?

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2018, 09:09 AM »
I just opened up my new GRS-16 PE and looks like TSO have made some adjustments.

There are 2x holes in-line with "bump" that slides into the slot on the bottom side of the rail.
I did a dry alignment and those 2x holes line up perfectly with the 2x holes/screws on the rear bracket of the MFT/3.

Looking at the original images of the PE those holes were not there.

Thanks you @TSO Products

John, - you're welcome!  Glad that you are now able to purchase TSO Products from local dealers in South Africa.

Hans

Offline RobBob

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2018, 09:16 AM »
Is it possible to have the new hole added an older version?

Yes, I would like to have the holes added to mine, too.

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2018, 12:16 PM »
YES, the 2-hole upgrade can be added to ealier versions of GRS-16 PE.

Option Nr.1: TSO creates a machining drawing showing dimensions and placement of the 2-hole pattern and makes it available for free download on our website.

Option Nr. 2: TSO offers a precision machined drill jig for sale which can be clamped to an existing GRS-16 PE for drilling accurately placed holes with a Tap Drill followed by tapping with an M6 Tap. We will develop a cost for one fixed number of units production run and publish it in the TSO INSIDER.

Option Nr. 3: purchase a new , current production GRS-16 PE  [smile]

We look forward to feedback, as always.
Hans and Eric

Offline Jmacpherson

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2018, 12:29 PM »
John, - you're welcome!  Glad that you are now able to purchase TSO Products from local dealers in South Africa.
Hans
Me too Hans, although not sure my wallet or wife will be as glad as we are :)

Offline box185

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2018, 12:13 AM »
YES, the 2-hole upgrade can be added to ealier versions of GRS-16 PE.

Option Nr.1: TSO creates a machining drawing showing dimensions and placement of the 2-hole pattern and makes it available for free download on our website.


Works best for me - two pieces need to be modified.

Offline Gregor

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2018, 06:08 AM »
Option Nr. 2: TSO offers a precision machined drill jig for sale which can be clamped to an existing GRS-16 PE for drilling accurately placed holes with a Tap Drill followed by tapping with an M6 Tap.

We look forward to feedback, as always.
As these jigs would be single-use, throwaway after... what about:

1) make one jig and send to $user that is in need of them for shipping costs (and a reservation on their CC, to make sure it dosn't get 'lost')
2) when $user has used it to upgrade his tool he'll log on to your site to download a shipping label to send it back, after package has been received the reservation on the CC is canceled
3) the label from 2 could (instead of returning it to you) well be addressed to $user2 that also is in need of the jig

Sure, you coudn't make that much money from this (compared to selling everyone an own jig to be used once and then discarded) but it would be service and save resources (as less need to be created). Surely it would take each user a bit longer on average to get one (which could be mitigated by having more than one circulating, depending on the amount of users who want to use one), but when done right it should be a cost effective (and green) solution.

Offline clark_fork

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2018, 10:40 AM »
Could we have some more photos of this in action and perhaps the process of installing it. I am not sure I grasp the process but the prospect of a permanent square up of the MFT fence is very appealing.

Secondly, does this square-up solution suggest permanently installing the TSO GRS-16PE on the MFT bracket and purchasing a second one specifically for this use? I spend a lot of time checking the fence to make sure it is square. On the MFT, I have modified the old saying...to "Square twice, cut once" I might be inclined to dedicate a second GRS-16PE to get more reliability and I am using my GRS-16PE frequently for sheet goods and such. I am concerned about the longevity of the screw hole threads in the installing and de-installing process.

Lastly on the option of locating and drilling holes on the older model discussed above, why not just design a new GRS specifically for the MFT? Streamline the design to reduce costs, supply the screws and an instruction flyer. My guess is that other tool making companies are reading this thread with great interest. This would be a defensive strategy.

Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Jmacpherson

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2018, 12:01 PM »
Could we have some more photos of this in action and perhaps the process of installing it. I am not sure I grasp the process but the prospect of a permanent square up of the MFT fence is very appealing.

Secondly, does this square-up solution suggest permanently installing the TSO GRS-16PE on the MFT bracket and purchasing a second one specifically for this use? I spend a lot of time checking the fence to make sure it is square. On the MFT, I have modified the old saying...to "Square twice, cut once" I might be inclined to dedicate a second GRS-16PE to get more reliability and I am using my GRS-16PE frequently for sheet goods and such. I am concerned about the longevity of the screw hole threads in the installing and de-installing process.

I took some photos post my install, I used the 2x screws provided from Festool to install the TSO square onto the rear bracket.
I installed from the bottom but based on the holes and clearance inside the rail maybe you can install from the top down?

If you wiggle the rail and/or bracket post install there is a little bit of movement/play but that is down to Festool not TSO.
It is the same play that has always been there and probably one of the main causes of the accuracy issues on the MFT?

As @simonh originally pointed out because the TSO square clamps to the rail, you are guaranteed to be square so long as your work piece is flush to the TSO square.
I took a small Woodpeckers square just show everyone and it is 100% square.
The small piece of wood I have under it is square to begin with but I slid it past the rail and measured top, middle and bottom and I was @8mm at all locations so I'm good to go.

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2018, 12:48 PM »
Thanks for the comments and suggestions including pictures @Jmacpherson.  I was unable to get pictures uploaded yesterday – I’ll try again later today.
The TSO Insider will have more details and pictures by next weekend for all to see.

For now, we plan to try the simplest method first: create a 1:1 full scale template for transferring the exact placement of the two M6 holes along with instructions. We’ll put that up for free download on our website “Plans and Drawings” section by August 1st.
The screws which come  with the MFT/3 function to hold the GRS-16 PE just the same way. The attachment method can stand installation and removal many times without affecting accuracy – because accuracy is determined solely by the connection of the clamped GRS-16 PE to the left edge of the guide rail.

@clark_fork – once users find that this MFT/3 functionality of the GRS-16 PE really works for them, I would not be surprised that quite a few users choose to dedicate a GRS-16 PE to their MFT/3 workstation.
As far as “streamlining the design to reduce cost” – we are always open to suggestions. We have actually absorbed a substantial portion of a cost increase last year when we increased the material thickness by 20% to provide maximum support for the guide rail t-slot edge – and then machined almost all of that additional material off again and to reduce total weight – actually reduced the net weight of the new GRS-16 PE by 51 grams over the preceding version. We decided early on that we will build the BEST tool we know how to design and produce – no compromise.
Other tool companies may read this with interest, you’re right. Meanwhile we received a Patent Office notice of allowance and our patent attorney said to expect the patent to issue this fall.
The crux of this MFT/3 connection is not that it connects to the MFT but rather that it equips the hinged guide rail with it’s own GRS-16 PE square reference edge for the workpiece. And we do not rely on the play in the lower t-slot for squaring the rail to the workpiece – big difference!

If the full scale template does not do it, we’ll listen to feed back about a drilling fixture. Mind you all: we are looking at making this as affordable for existing customers as we can.

Let's see if I can pictures uploaded shortly.

Hans

Offline rst

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2018, 01:08 PM »
I've been repairing automatic door systems for 38 years.  Often I would need to repair one of the various manufacturers system that required a dedicated programmer.  I dealt with a supplier that has the specific programmers and tools to  repair any system.  I would call them, tell them what I needed, they would ship the unit, bill me and then credit me for the programmer when I returned the unit.  All I would end up paying was a rental charge.  It does require an organized system, but makes it possible for any repair necessary.

Offline Jmacpherson

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2018, 04:31 PM »
I bought the GRS-16 first and has revolutionized the way I use my tracksaw+rail+mft.
I was never happy with the mft fence or using dogs it just never felt right for me personally.

So I found the original posters idea great and when local dealers started stocking TSO products it felt like a wise move to buy the PE version too and permanently connect the rail to the mft. The dedicated holes on mine are a bonus.

In my opinion I think it is a worthwhile edition to your MFT.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2018, 04:45 PM »
I don't own this tool or an MFT. As a suggestion, since this is pretty much a one-time use for a one-time fix thing, can the jig be made of dirt cheap material (hard plastic?) to reduce the cost?


Offline Svar

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Re: TSO GRS-16PE + MFT
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2018, 09:29 PM »
I don't own this tool or an MFT. As a suggestion, since this is pretty much a one-time use for a one-time fix thing, can the jig be made of dirt cheap material (hard plastic?) to reduce the cost?
Or cast from aluminum with only two contact edges milled. Perhaps volumes can not justify casting?