Author Topic: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs  (Read 4809 times)

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Online Steven Owen

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Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« on: October 27, 2017, 01:15 PM »
The LR 32 system looks well thought out and well designed.  The videos clearly demonstrate how the system can be used to create pins and euro hinge installs quickly with a router.

The LR 32

Veritas, Rockler, Woodpeckers, Kreg and numerous other specialty tool companies produce a lot of alternatives.  The Kreg and Rockler are passable.  The Woodpeckers and Veritas are precision machines to high tolerances to be extremely accurate.  Rockler has a very solid Euro hinge jig.  All of these jigs seem capable of producing similar results to the LR 32. 

 http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=32251&cat=1,180,42311

By the time you buy an LR 32 Kit, OF 1400 and a LR 32 rail, you’re looking at $1700 dollars Canadian or $1450 USD for the router and the LR 32 kit/rail.

For 3 times the price of every other solution, what do you get with an LR 32 over buying a Veritas Shelf pin jig and a Rockler Euro Hinge Jig?  What do you features do you feel justify spending an extra $1200 dollars to buy into the LR 32 system?

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Offline Svar

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 01:32 PM »
I like this approach:



Not necessarily specific execution, but the principle. This is how Mafell template operates with their Duo Doweler.
Guido Henn showed the same technique, but he used template with deep cutouts and simple guide bushing instead of sub-base.



1. Minimum parts and setup time.
2. The tool is not attached to anything, unless you use the sub-base.
3. You don't take hands off the tool.
4. You don't lift the tool.
5. You can use any router.
6. Template does not wear out (unlike Kreg etc. jigs)
7. Costs next to nothing.
8. Easy to make.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 04:26 PM by Svar »

Offline bnaboatbuilder

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 01:33 PM »
Whether the cost is worth it is entirely up to you.

I do own the OF1400, LR32 set and 55 holy rail. It all works quite easily once setup. But that's the key, setup is not quick and you need to check your settings so you don't make mistakes. It's still a very manual process but does it's task as perfectly as possible. The included instructions are not very useful, instead download the PDF supplemental.

By my math, in USD at current prices, OF1400 $570, LR32 set $510, 55" 32mm rail $136 all comes to $1216 by Tool Nut prices. Or buy the OF1010 at $450 for a total of $1096 USD.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 01:38 PM by bnaboatbuilder »
- John

Offline lwoirhaye

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 01:43 PM »
If you don't need the back row to be perfectly parallel to the front row at 32mm increments, a lot of jigs can work fine.   Cutting the holes with a plunge router is faster by far than a drill.

Useful overview here:  http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/Festool/32mm/festool_32mmholes.html

The only router jigs I have seen that look like they really have it figured out are the "Schmitt32" and one not sold anymore called a Kurka jig.  Both allow parallel holes on 32mm centers without measuring.

I have the Maffel.  It drills individual rows very quickly but spacing rows on 32mm increments for drawer slides is not something it is designed to be friendly to at all.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 01:53 PM by lwoirhaye »

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 02:06 PM »
I just bought the LR32 Plate.  It’s available as a separate item. I already owned the 1400, 1100 and a holy rail.   So it wasn’t that big of an investment.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 07:12 AM by T. Ernsberger »

Offline Master Carpenter

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 07:49 PM »
I started with the veritas. Still have it and it's come in handy a few times to put a couple holes in assembled cabinets. If you only plan to do a few cabinets a year. I'd say get it. Next step up is the festool, I use the 1010 router with mine to save some money on routers, I already have enough mid sized routers that getting a 1400 wasn't desired. If you want to spend more money or your doing cabinets professionally, get a multispindle line boring machine. If you though festool was expensive...

I think it comes down to volume of cabinets your doing. I'd go with lr32 for 5 to 50 cabinets a year.

And I don't find the lr32 particularly fast. As with all festool, the pointer on the setup bars isint very precise and the pin on my plate is tight, I often have to manually lift it to move to the next hole in the rail.
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Offline grbmds

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 07:57 PM »
While in two different Festool classes we used the jig. It's a great jig and I see the value if you are a cabinet maker. However, for the woodworker who doesn't make a living at cabinet making, I have looked for other jigs to do the same things. For the few times I have a use for it, almost any other jig would work.
Randy

Offline JimH2

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 08:10 PM »
I ran through numerous different products starting at sub-$20 to the LR-32 and finally the Mafell Duo Doweler. For those that don't know it's primary use is for joining, but with the template guide it makes shelf pin holes quickly and efficiently with very little chance for failure. The plus is it does (2) holes at once. I like the homemade jigs in the first post especially the first one though getting the holes exactly lined up will takes some effort. If someone were to go this route I would fine someone with an LR32 or Duo Doweler or a line boring setup to create the template. I'm not sold not the 2nd one as the chance of the router moving or of not having the template guide tight up against the jig could lead to problems.

When I had the LR-32 I used it with the OF1010. I think the 1400 would be awkward to slide due to the weight difference. I'll add that if you do not use the LR-32 regularly always make a practice run on a scrap.

Offline Ptk16

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2017, 08:56 PM »
I use the lr32 setup with the 1400...and I find it super fast, really easy to set up and incredibly accurate. I hesitated because of the cost, but do not regret it at all.

Online Steven Owen

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 09:56 PM »
It would have been nice to see an expanded ecosystem for other tools with the LR 32.  They could have added a something for precision layout of dowels and dominos as part of the system.

Between the Veritas and the LR 32.  The real advantage would be speed and dust collection.  The Veritas should be every as accurate as the LR-32.  Veritas obsesses about precision in every tool they make.

The slower speed of drilling and lack of a dust collection solution would separate the Veritas from the LR-32.  I would think you would need to stop and brush off the bit on the drill for every 8-9 holes you drill to clear the bit.
 

Offline Svar

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 10:16 PM »
I like the homemade jigs in the first post especially the first one though getting the holes exactly lined up will takes some effort. If someone were to go this route I would fine someone with an LR32 or Duo Doweler or a line boring setup to create the template.
I did similar template on a router table, the way you do finger joints. Perfect repeatability of spacing, but getting it 32 mm takes some tweaking.
You can also buy a melamine panel with 32 mm holes in store and use as a template.

Offline Holmz

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 10:44 PM »
I use the lr32 setup with the 1400...and I find it super fast, really easy to set up and incredibly accurate. I hesitated because of the cost, but do not regret it at all.

I have the Bosch variant with their holy rail. I would not call it fast... Fiddly or something, but not fast nor super fast.

If I was really doing lots of 32-mm holes I would look hard at the duo doweler, but others may not.

Offline Cochese

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 10:45 PM »
I tried to cheap out with the Woodpecker, but ultimately I decided I'd rather spend several hundred more to do it with the LR32 system. I absolutely love it, even though it does challenge my math skills sometimes.

I'd expand on this further, but I just took a happy little pill for my unhappy big headache and I'm ready for some shuteye.

Offline J0hn

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 11:18 PM »
The LR 32 is one of the Festools that I really regret buying (another one is the parallel guides for the Tracksaw, but those were returned)

I also have the Veritas jig, and feel it was well worth the money

If you are building cabinets using the 32mm system, LR 32 would probably work out.  I ran into problems trying to drill shelf pin holes because the length of the boards did not conform to the 32mm system and I had problems when trying to drill the second set of holes (I don't remember all the details now since it has been a while and I haven't tried to do it again)

The Veritas jig makes it very simple.  For now, I have dedicated a Dewalt Trim Router to the LR32 plate and I use that when I need a light duty track router

If your looking for a good jig to install euro hinges, I have the Hettich and I am very pleased with it ($220) or look at the Blum ($300)

https://www.woodstocksupply.com/hinge-drilling-jig-47303-hettich.html

https://www.amazon.com/Blum-M31-1000-ECODRILL-Variable-Distance/dp/B0006HFCNM/ref=sr_1_9?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1421568965&sr=1-9&keywords=hinge+boring+jig

Someday I will own the Duo Doweler  (I have no interest at all in the Domino)

Offline lwoirhaye

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 11:39 PM »
Construction boring for dowels, Confirmats or other RTA methods is a whole other issue, but for drilling Euro style base cabinets with a combination of drawers and doors, this is the most sensible setup I have seen short of a 46 spindle double line bore.  I have a construction boring machine and it is less versatile than I thought it would be, though it can be set up for a great many tasks in a set-it and forget-it sense for a large shop.  I have left it set up for Confirmat boring because it is not worth the switchover time to do line boring with it and it does not without considerable setup time overcome the issues inherent to single row line boring machines, specifically that any time you flip the panel around you take a risk that it is not dead-nuts accurate in width and squareness.  Both the system in the video and a 46 spindle machine use the bottom front corner of both left and right side panels as the reference corner. When you work with a system that has to move the reference corner around sizing errors are  compounded.  For shelves and hinges these errors may not be a factor but for drawer slides they are.


« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 12:02 AM by lwoirhaye »

Offline Timtool

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2017, 05:00 AM »
The LR32 is great and well designed, especially if you are into the system. I bought the OF1010 and LR before having a track saw so I bought the LR rail, and a second one when I got my saw (paid the difference to get an LR with the saw)

But it still is a jig, I have it because I rarely need it and it was the only thing available at the time. But a professional who needs this often should really invest in a stationary row/hinge boring machine. A hobby user would probably be better off with a cheaper alternative now that they exist.
What still sells the LR to me is that with two coupled rails I can do any project size in one go.
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2017, 09:36 AM »
I own and use the LR 32 system ad ave for a while. IMO if you are doing onesies or twosies then there are other jigs that might work for you. If you are doing a lot of shelf hole drilling then the LR 32 is pretty darned good.

The deal is if your doing one or two it takes almost as time to set up as it does to drill the holes.
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 09:56 AM »
Before I got my first Festool I used a Rockler template guide.  One of the clear plastic ones that used a drill bit.  I still have it hanging somewhere.  I don't know why I still have it.

Then I progressed to a Woodpeckers one that used a guide bushing and a router.  I already had the 1400 and had used the LR-32 in training classes.  I ended up buying the 5 mm Festool router bit and used it to do some projects.  The results were better than the old Rockler one.



Then I had the need to do some cabinets for a garage project.  I decided to go the LR-32 route.  It offered far more variability than the others I owned, it was based on stuff that I already owned, and it worked.

Yes there is a learning curve.  And because I don't use it that often I have to refresh my memory prior to using it again.  But once I do it does what I need it to do.  And could do more.  And it is portable and stores in a Systainer until the next time.

No regrets from me.

Peter
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Offline Cheese

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 11:06 AM »
I purchased and still use the Woodpecker Shelf Pin Template Guide. I think I paid only $50-$60 for it at the time. Pretty inexpensive if you're not doing cabinets for a living. On average maybe I build 1 cabinet per year. This year is an exception as I'll be constructing 4 of them.

The Woodpecker item is accurate and the locating pins are a nice snug fit. I use a cordless drill with standard brad point bits and the optional Woodpecker drill guide. It's slow but I'm very satisfied with the results. 

Having said all that, I purchased the Woodpecker Guide before I owned a 1400 & 1010 Festool router and a holey rail. Maybe now is the time to pick up the LR 32 Set with 8 ea 48" panels that will need to be drilled?

I'm very impressed with the ease of use and the speed of the Schmitt 32 setup.  [thumbs up]

Interesting, just Googled the Schmitt 32 System and they're fabricated in Wisconsin. They cost either $379 or $489 depending upon the model. Unfortunately the systems only work with 3 routers; A Dewalt, a Sears and a Master Force. [eek] [eek]

http://schmitt32.com/shop-2/
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 11:24 AM by Cheese »

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2017, 11:28 AM »
The thing about the LR 32 for me is the repeatability, especially when used with the parallel guides.  Once I set up for a particular set of drawer glides, it goes quickly.  The setup does take time, but once set up, it's quick to use.  Once I figure out my system and mark all pieces as to top/bottom/front/back/inside/outside with painter's tape, I can lay out lines on which to set up the LR 32.  On the other hand, all line-boring must be done before assembly.  Once a cabinet is assembled, forget using the LR 32. 
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Online Steven Owen

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2017, 05:12 PM »
The thing about the LR 32 for me is the repeatability, especially when used with the parallel guides.  Once I set up for a particular set of drawer glides, it goes quickly.  The setup does take time, but once set up, it's quick to use.  Once I figure out my system and mark all pieces as to top/bottom/front/back/inside/outside with painter's tape, I can lay out lines on which to set up the LR 32.  On the other hand, all line-boring must be done before assembly.  Once a cabinet is assembled, forget using the LR 32.

I’m not opposed to spending the money on the LR 32.  The Kreg stuff is a waste of money.  It wears out after your third or fourth project. 

I plan to get the OF 1400 as my freehand router.  The LR 32 is about double the price of the Lee Valley Veritas rig with it’s full set-up.  And 30% more if you factor in the cost of buying a hinge boring jig.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware/page.aspx?p=42200&cat=3,61998&ap=1

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2017, 05:38 PM »
I plan to get the OF 1400 as my freehand router.  The LR 32 is about double the price of the Lee Valley Veritas rig with it’s full set-up.  And 30% more if you factor in the cost of buying a hinge boring jig.

Are you aware that the LR 32 comes with a 35mm hinge-boring bit? 
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Online Steven Owen

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2017, 05:45 PM »
[quote author=Steven Owen link=topic=53753.msg527111#msg527111 date=150922514

Yes, I watched a couple of videos on setting-up and configuring the LR 32.

Offline harry_

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2017, 07:24 PM »
Before I got my first Festool I used a Rockler template guide.  One of the clear plastic ones that used a drill bit.  I still have it hanging somewhere.  I don't know why I still have it.

Then I progressed to a Woodpeckers one that used a guide bushing and a router.  I already had the 1400 and had used the LR-32 in training classes.  I ended up buying the 5 mm Festool router bit and used it to do some projects.  The results were better than the old Rockler one.



Then I had the need to do some cabinets for a garage project.  I decided to go the LR-32 route.  It offered far more variability than the others I owned, it was based on stuff that I already owned, and it worked.

Yes there is a learning curve.  And because I don't use it that often I have to refresh my memory prior to using it again.  But once I do it does what I need it to do.  And could do more.  And it is portable and stores in a Systainer until the next time.

No regrets from me.

Peter


What he said.....except the woodpecker part..
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Online Steven Owen

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2017, 12:32 AM »
Before I got my first Festool I used a Rockler template guide.  One of the clear plastic ones that used a drill bit.  I still have it hanging somewhere.  I don't know why I still have it.

Then I progressed to a Woodpeckers one that used a guide bushing and a router.  I already had the 1400 and had used the LR-32 in training classes.  I ended up buying the 5 mm Festool router bit and used it to do some projects.  The results were better than the old Rockler one.



Then I had the need to do some cabinets for a garage project.  I decided to go the LR-32 route.  It offered far more variability than the others I owned, it was based on stuff that I already owned, and it worked.

Yes there is a learning curve.  And because I don't use it that often I have to refresh my memory prior to using it again.  But once I do it does what I need it to do.  And could do more.  And it is portable and stores in a Systainer until the next time.

No regrets from me.

Peter


What he said.....except the woodpecker part..

I made the mistake of buying the Veritas hinge boring jig.  It’s accurate but it’s a huge pain to calibrate, it doesn’t have anywhere to clamp it.  The bar stop doesn’t screw into the body of the Veritas hinge jig make it useless.  I place marks where I want to center the hinge and use the center line on the Veritas Jig to line the jig up to the center of the bit.

The Veritas Jig is $230 dollar mistake.  I’m not opposed to spending the extra money for the LR 32 if it’s accurate when placing cup holes for hinges.

There’s a big market for high quality wall floating mounted home theatre shelving units.  They work better with mounted flat screens TV’s.  Wall mounted floating TV stands share a lot in common with kitchen cabinets.  Adjustable shelves are critical given the wide variances in the sizes of electronics, speakers and gaming systems. 


Offline lwoirhaye

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2017, 01:00 AM »
I have the Veritas hinge boring jig too.  It's a cool idea but it doesn't clamp to the work and you have to hold it in place.  It might work better if you had one person hold the jig and another operate the drill.  Why it wasn't designed with a clamp boggles my mind because Veritas stuff is usually so well designed. It works okay for veneered mdf doors but for hardwood it requires an intense amount of pressure to drill the cup hole.  It's okay for job-site work but it is tiresome to use for a lot of doors.  The last few times I used it in the shop I used it just to drill the screw holes and start the hinge hole.  Then I used my drill press to drill the hole to depth.   I have thought about trying to modify it to clamp to the work.

Offline J0hn

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2017, 01:24 PM »
You guys should really take a good look at the Hettich for $220
https://www.woodstocksupply.com/hinge-drilling-jig-47303-hettich.html

It has a simple knob type clamp.  Drills the cup hole and the holes for the screws.  It has 8 settings so you can adjust how close to the edge you want the cup hole to be and all you do is line the center mark on the jig with the center of where you want the cup hole
I made this guide to show me what the settings on the jig do.



« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 01:26 PM by J0hn »

Offline fshanno

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2017, 08:05 PM »
I get better holes in every king of ply and melamine using a router rather than a drill.  Even a 000 rpm drill.  So my final solution must be a route based one.

And I have another particular need.  I want all hole columns referenced off the front edge of the panel and I want all rows referenced off the bottom edge of the panel.  That means no flipping anything around.  That way any inconsistency of centering the bit, even slop in the system is pretty much canceled out.  If anything is wrong it won't matter because holes will be the same amount wrong, shelves will be level.  Even if the panel size is a little off, it won't matter.

I have an LR32 and I figured out a way to achieve my goal (even in the field) on my MFT using only Festool stock items plus spacer pieces.  The holey rail is attached to the MFT bridge thing and I don't use the LR32 edge stops or the end stops.  I use dogs and spacers.  I think it's faster than the normal LR32 method.  And it works on balanced or non-balanced panels.

All that said, if I was shopping right now.  I'd give that Schmitt system a real hard look.
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Online Steven Owen

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2017, 07:26 PM »
I get better holes in every king of ply and melamine using a router rather than a drill.  Even a 000 rpm drill.  So my final solution must be a route based one.

And I have another particular need.  I want all hole columns referenced off the front edge of the panel and I want all rows referenced off the bottom edge of the panel.  That means no flipping anything around.  That way any inconsistency of centering the bit, even slop in the system is pretty much canceled out.  If anything is wrong it won't matter because holes will be the same amount wrong, shelves will be level.  Even if the panel size is a little off, it won't matter.

I have an LR32 and I figured out a way to achieve my goal (even in the field) on my MFT using only Festool stock items plus spacer pieces.  The holey rail is attached to the MFT bridge thing and I don't use the LR32 edge stops or the end stops.  I use dogs and spacers.  I think it's faster than the normal LR32 method.  And it works on balanced or non-balanced panels.

All that said, if I was shopping right now.  I'd give that Schmitt system a real hard look.

The Schmidt 32 look nice with fully indexed system.  It looks faster then the LR32.  The downside would space requirements.  You need a large shop to set-up a Schmidt 32.  The LR32 is more cumbersome but also very portable.   

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Value of the LR 32 vs more affordable Jigs
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2017, 07:54 PM »
@Steven Owen , I hope you get a chance to spend on hands time with the LR-32.  YouTube is great, but hands on is better and can change or re-enforce opinions.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.