Author Topic: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review  (Read 96746 times)

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Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2016, 04:37 PM »
A tinkling piano in the next apartment ...



Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2016, 04:50 PM »
A tinkling piano in the next apartment ...

Had to consult the Oracle before I figgered that one out.

She'll also keep getting the credit card bills...

RMW
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:18 PM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2016, 07:15 PM »
Tinkling in the Nextel apartment makes me think that MacGyver has escaped to the office and is tin....

I am looking to an in depth review of the square.

After all, when I started this thread I didn't say that I was going to be the only one to do a review.   [big grin]

Have fun  and be safe!

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2016, 08:01 PM »
I was going to order this brilliant square but am now confused as to whether I should hold out for the parallel square. Am I correct into thinking that the parallel square can be used at front top end of the track (either end) but will be bigger than the current version which can be stored in a future holster  due to the triangular shape but cannot be used at either end?

So the next model the parallel square will function as the first one but will do more, is this correct? If yes then should I wait for the second one?

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2016, 11:33 PM »
I was going to order this brilliant square but am now confused as to whether I should hold out for the parallel square. Am I correct into thinking that the parallel square can be used at front top end of the track (either end) but will be bigger than the current version which can be stored in a future holster  due to the triangular shape but cannot be used at either end?

So the next model the parallel square will function as the first one but will do more, is this correct? If yes then should I wait for the second one?
Standard GRS-16 vs its stablemate GRS-16 PE:
both tools will fit into a rectangular footprint of approx 16 x 6 inches. While the Standard tool has the corners clipped into a triangle to fit flat into any Systainer TL, the parallel edge version will only fit into a Systainer 2 or taller standing on edge diagonally. A set of two consisting of Standard and PE version will both fit together in one Systainer TL back-to-back. The PE version will be bulkier but not much heavier. It will perform its function equally well on either end of a guide rail.
The Standard GRS-16 tool will be preferred, we expect, for everyday use - just a more compact size. But when you need to work from the other end, there will be no substitue for the PE version. And for long sheets, having a square at each end will be a plus for accuracy over the longer reach.
Hope this helps.

Klemm
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2016, 11:37 PM »
Richard,
I figured you'd be out on your deck by now with your new Square:)
nice to hear from someone who knows first hand what it takes to develop a product and bring it to market. We are firm believers in having the product in production before we take orders. 'nuff said!

Klemm
Hey Kev,
do we have your permission to TradeMark our tools  "RTT" tools - that is pretty descriptive along with a bit of FOG humor :)
Klemm

LoL ... FSO Products RTT ... Real Time Tools [wink] [big grin]

... it's pretty bad when you order a tool from (let's just call them) company 'W" and a real decision factor is "will I still want it and will I still be around when it finally arrives?" [eek]
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2016, 12:17 AM »
Klemm, I'd be honoured if you did [wink]

Offline bryan1982

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2016, 05:55 AM »
I was going to order this brilliant square but am now confused as to whether I should hold out for the parallel square. Am I correct into thinking that the parallel square can be used at front top end of the track (either end) but will be bigger than the current version which can be stored in a future holster  due to the triangular shape but cannot be used at either end?

So the next model the parallel square will function as the first one but will do more, is this correct? If yes then should I wait for the second one?
Standard GRS-16 vs its stablemate GRS-16 PE:
both tools will fit into a rectangular footprint of approx 16 x 6 inches. While the Standard tool has the corners clipped into a triangle to fit flat into any Systainer TL, the parallel edge version will only fit into a Systainer 2 or taller standing on edge diagonally. A set of two consisting of Standard and PE version will both fit together in one Systainer TL back-to-back. The PE version will be bulkier but not much heavier. It will perform its function equally well on either end of a guide rail.
The Standard GRS-16 tool will be preferred, we expect, for everyday use - just a more compact size. But when you need to work from the other end, there will be no substitue for the PE version. And for long sheets, having a square at each end will be a plus for accuracy over the longer reach.
Hope this helps.

Klemm


@TSO Products
Hey i just bought the current model. Love the free freight to australia.
i think the pe vesion would be better so you can referance off either the top or bottom. Im not sure why it has to be bigger it just needs to be rectangle.

 Not sure i would use the 2 at the same  time.
Do we have a time frame on the next model?

Cheers

Bryan

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2016, 06:48 AM »
@TSO_Products

Any idea on what the pe square will cost when introduced? Can this be pre-ordered?

If the set is ordered ie the current model now and then when pe square is availble , what will be the total price?

@Bryan1983

I think if made smaller the accuracy may be effected as the edge that is aligned with the edge of the track must have a good reasonable contact area to prevent track perpendicular error maybe☺

Offline bryan1982

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2016, 08:02 AM »
@TSO_Products

@tazprime38
For me in only trying to cut say a 870mm high back panel on a kitchen having used the hkc track a


Any idea on what the pe square will cost when introduced? Can this be pre-ordered?

If the set is ordered ie the current model now and then when pe square is availble , what will be the total price?

@Bryan1983

I think if made smaller the accuracy may be effected as the edge that is aligned with the edge of the track must have a good reasonable contact area to prevent track perpendicular error maybe☺
@tazprime38
For me in only trying to cut say a 870mm high back panel on a kitchen.

having used the hkc track and seeing how accurate  that is i just need this product to reference off the top because some times I've already scribed the bottom and need to use the longer track. and use ts 55 instead of the HKC -

Bryan


Offline Tinker

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2016, 09:04 AM »
Richard,
I figured you'd be out on your deck by now with your new Square:)
nice to hear from someone who knows first hand what it takes to develop a product and bring it to market. We are firm believers in having the product in production before we take orders. 'nuff said!

Klemm

LoL ... FSO Products RTT ... Real Time Tools [wink] [big grin]

... it's pretty bad when you order a tool from (let's just call them) company 'W" and a real decision factor is "will I still want it and will I still be around when it finally arrives?" [eek]

Ha! Bad enough my wife will have to figure out what to do with all this stuff when I croak, she'll really be ticked when it keeps showing up for the next 8-10 months...

RMW
@TSO Products

Received mine yesterday and immediately ran out to the shop and clicked it onto a rail to admire, then repeated to myself "great design"! I had fiddled with a design of my own about a year ago but never liked the outcome and just let it linger (while still using the prototype). Typical CNC prototype costs, if I had ordered 1 unit it would cost me a couple hundred bucks, if I ordered 10 they were only 2X the single unit cost. Figured I would sell off the extra 8 and recoup my $$ but never got around to it. Oops.

My next thought was "Now what the heck am I going to do with the 10 squares I have?" Oh well...  [doh]

My last thought was, "Boy, I'm glad I'm not waiting for the WoodPeckers OTT version to show up!"  [poke]

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [doh]

Best of luck with your creations.

RMW
Wayne H. Tinker

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2016, 10:17 AM »
@TSO_Products

Any idea on what the pe square will cost when introduced? Can this be pre-ordered?

If the set is ordered ie the current model now and then when pe square is availble , what will be the total price?

@Bryan1983

I think if made smaller the accuracy may be effected as the edge that is aligned with the edge of the track must have a good reasonable contact area to prevent track perpendicular error maybe☺

pricing the GRS-16 PE:
we expect the individual price will be in the same order of magnitude for each of the Square Tools. The price advantage of sets is also still under consideration but it will be helpful to our customers. As we said before, the set price advantage will be extended to early purchasers of the standard GRS-16 until the PE version is available. Then the retroactive set-pricing will no longer be available.

We do not want to go down the road of soliciting or accepting pre-orders for standard products as a matter of differentiating business principle.

Klemm
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline mike_aa

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2016, 12:49 PM »
@TSO_Products

Klemm,
A big thank you to you, Hans, and Eric for the extra quick shipping.  I got mine yesterday and just in time to make some cuts this weekend!  You guys really rock!

Mike A.

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2016, 01:10 PM »
@TSO_Products

Klemm,
A big thank you to you, Hans, and Eric for the extra quick shipping.  I got mine yesterday and just in time to make some cuts this weekend!  You guys really rock!

Mike A.

Mike
glad to help and kind of you to acknowledge the extra effort- your kudos will be passed along - we know what it's like when you're trying to get something done and are waiting for a delivery.
Klemm
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2016, 02:50 PM »
I have been thinking that using both squares current one and the pe together top and bottom of track would almost act like a clamp on the piece being cut.

Two problems I see;

1) If the top and bottom edges of piece being cut are not parallel to each other, only one square can sit at 90° to the edge of workpiece. This therefore defeats the purpose of using two squares.

2) You cannot really tighten the second square tight the the top edge as you woul need to be able to move the square down the track after clamping to ensure tight and square positioning. Similar to tightening a normal threaded  or bar clamp.

I hope I have made sense

Offline squawkin

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2016, 03:53 PM »
I just ordered mine.  [big grin]

Offline vkumar

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2016, 07:31 PM »
@TSO Products  just placed an order. Hoping for more info on availability of accessories such as the other square , systainer inserts etc.
Vijay Kumar
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2016, 08:33 PM »
thank you all for the continuing flow of orders. More GRS-16's are continuing to be machined this week.
After we have actual pre-production examples of the -PE  models  in August, we can get serious about the best ways to provide protection in Systainers. Systainer 2 does not leave a lot of cushioning room. Better take a look with the real article and see what makes sense.

We have been looking for indications that enough interest would justify producing molded High-Density EPS filler blocks matching the interior shape of the Systainer. (think Tooling and inventory $)

Some of these issues are more a bit more complex than you might imagine. For example - the current GRS-16 ships in an 18x6x6 box and weighs right at 3 lbs. But UPS (and FedEx, too) look at the combination of weight and/or volume to determine cost. Even though our current package weights only 3 lbs, we are being charged for 4 lbs based on the volume occupied by our shipment in the UPS stream of packages.
So you say just make the box smaller so its "dim weight" comes down. No technical problem - just an economic one. Saving labor cost associated with cutting down the taller box manually means the smaller box would have to be a custom box (tooling cost, inventory and warehouse $). To make that work would require visibility on future demand. But we are already talking about change the pack to possibly include the EPS filler block which will definitely have us shipping based on Dimension rather than weight. Well if that's the case, you say, just pack the GRS-16 and the GRS-16PE together as a set - probably cost the same as only one square in the box. Forgot to mention that a bigger box$ is required.

I am writing all this not to complain or justify anything. Instead I hope some of you will find a look behind the scenes informative. After all, you're clearly are more technically interested and understanding audience than 99% of (power-) tool buyers.

We have opted, above all, to be a nimble developer of specialty products which make our customer's work more productive and more enjoyable. This means not settling for the way things are usually done. Let us know anytime you feel we're slacking.

Klemm
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline SMJoinery

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2016, 03:25 AM »
Hi Klemm

New product looks very good and looks to solve the problem of using the guide rails accurately when out on site away from the workshop and MFT.
I may have missed it but can you confirm shipping costs and ETA to Mainland Uk, Central Scotland. FK postcode?
If it's easier send me over a shipping container full of them and I'll easily sell them here for you and send back the proceeds! [big grin]
Thanks and well done on what appears to be a great product.
Scott

Offline bryan1982

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2016, 04:41 AM »
@TSO Products

Will the pe product ship free when it first comes out? I just bought the current model

Offline Tinker

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2016, 04:55 AM »
thank you all for the continuing flow of orders. More GRS-16's are continuing to be machined this week.
After we have actual pre-production examples of the -PE  models  in August, we can get serious about the best ways to provide protection in Systainers. Systainer 2 does not leave a lot of cushioning room. Better take a look with the real article and see what makes sense.

We have been looking for indications that enough interest would justify producing molded High-Density EPS filler blocks matching the interior shape of the Systainer. (think Tooling and inventory $)

Some of these issues are more a bit more complex than you might imagine. For example - the current GRS-16 ships in an 18x6x6 box and weighs right at 3 lbs. But UPS (and FedEx, too) look at the combination of weight and/or volume to determine cost. Even though our current package weights only 3 lbs, we are being charged for 4 lbs based on the volume occupied by our shipment in the UPS stream of packages.
So you say just make the box smaller so its "dim weight" comes down. No technical problem - just an economic one. Saving labor cost associated with cutting down the taller box manually means the smaller box would have to be a custom box (tooling cost, inventory and warehouse $). To make that work would require visibility on future demand. But we are already talking about change the pack to possibly include the EPS filler block which will definitely have us shipping based on Dimension rather than weight. Well if that's the case, you say, just pack the GRS-16 and the GRS-16PE together as a set - probably cost the same as only one square in the box. Forgot to mention that a bigger box$ is required.

I am writing all this not to complain or justify anything. Instead I hope some of you will find a look behind the scenes informative. After all, you're clearly are more technically interested and understanding audience than 99% of (power-) tool buyers.

We have opted, above all, to be a nimble developer of specialty products which make our customer's work more productive and more enjoyable. This means not settling for the way things are usually done. Let us know anytime you feel we're slacking.

Klemm

@TSO Products
A great explanation. It is a big problem when it comes to packaging.  I often wonder how a small company can afford "free delivery". 
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review,
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2016, 05:55 AM »
On storage .. a padded, zippered option maybe?? I can imagine mine and many others hanging on the wall. If you're mobile, dedicating a systainer is very inefficient.

Additionally, a padded bag becomes primary protection during initial shipping, gives good brand identity options and is compact to roll and ship as a follow on product accessory.

I could also imagine a custom bag for 2x 1400 rails, with two pockets on the front for the GRS squares (yeh, maybe a third pocket for a couple of quick clamps and rail connectors too).

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2016, 08:00 AM »
Hi Klemm

New product looks very good and looks to solve the problem of using the guide rails accurately when out on site away from the workshop and MFT.
I may have missed it but can you confirm shipping costs and ETA to Mainland Uk, Central Scotland. FK postcode?
If it's easier send me over a shipping container full of them and I'll easily sell them here for you and send back the proceeds! [big grin]
Thanks and well done on what appears to be a great product.
Scott
Scott:
Until the end of July shipping is free to international as well as US purchasers for their own use to help give this new product market exposure. We do not plan to extend free shipping to orders received after July 31. There are no plans to sell through dealers in the US or overseas in the foreseeable future.
Klemm
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review,
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2016, 08:17 AM »
On storage .. a padded, zippered option maybe?? I can imagine mine and many others hanging on the wall. If you're mobile, dedicating a systainer is very inefficient.

Additionally, a padded bag becomes primary protection during initial shipping, gives good brand identity options and is compact to roll and ship as a follow on product accessory.

I could also imagine a custom bag for 2x 1400 rails, with two pockets on the front for the GRS squares (yeh, maybe a third pocket for a couple of quick clamps and rail connectors too).

Kev:
you put your finger on a concern we share: the inherent space inefficiency of using a Systainer 2 for the GRS-16 PE.  The padded pouch idea is a possibility when we can get a better idea of the sales volume. The holster idea has been brought up too. We'll keep these ideas in mind as we go forward with the -PE version. - thanks for your input!
Klemm
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2016, 08:29 AM »
@TSO Products

Will the pe product ship free when it first comes out? I just bought the current model

Bryan:
thanks for your GRS-16 order. We are working on costing and pricing for the GRS-16 PE version with the idea of providing a benefit to customers who are buying a set of both square tools - either as a purchase at one time after introduction of the PE or as a retroactive special price for customers who bought the standard tool before the -PE version was available. Where shipping fits in is something still to be figured out.
Klemm
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Offline skinee

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2016, 12:51 PM »
Klemm, will you consider making a model to work on the mafell/bosch rail system? it should be do'able but the draw catch would have to engage on the bottom of the rail in the clamping t-slot,this would present little or no problem in my view,in fact it would enable the fitting of a 'pressing' handle to the top of the square in much the same way as on the EZsmart square

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2016, 02:48 PM »
Hans,

Gave my PG-16 it's maiden voyage, no fiddling with the setup, grabbed a rail - slide - click - cut... perfect!





I checked the first 3-4 cuts, didn't find one with more run-out than perhaps 10-thou over 18" (1/4 MM), which probably came from something other than the guide. This is something we can use with confidence, no need to check the setup or results.

Great addition to the arsenal.

RMW
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2016, 03:59 PM »
Richard, thank for your report "from the field". May we quote from it on our website and use your great pictures,too - with public or initials only credits?
Klemm
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2016, 04:06 PM »
Klemm, will you consider making a model to work on the mafell/bosch rail system? it should be do'able but the draw catch would have to engage on the bottom of the rail in the clamping t-slot,this would present little or no problem in my view,in fact it would enable the fitting of a 'pressing' handle to the top of the square in much the same way as on the EZsmart square

We would not rule out a model compatible with BOSCH / MAFELL. We will take another look at those guide rails. They obviously require a different approach. Are you a professional? Do you work mobile or from a fixed shop? Perhaps you could send us an email to info@tsoproducts.com and describe what kind of applications you use your track saw for.
Klemm
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Offline mike_aa

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2016, 06:16 PM »
Gave my GRS-16 Guide Rail Square a bit of a workout today with super results.  It snapped right on the rail and was dead on square.  I needed to cut a good number of panels to the same size so I paired it with a Woodpecker's rule and rule stop and got consistent results.  Worked great!



Thanks TSO!

Mike A.