Author Topic: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review  (Read 60738 times)

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Offline Peter Halle

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I received a product soon to be released to the market and was asked for my thoughts on it.  Let's get the disclosure stuff out of the way right now.  I did not solicit getting this product.  I am not an investor or related in anyone who is involved.  I get no compensation in any way but I get to keep the square.  If that bothers you now that I have disclosed that then...

The square I received may be different than what will ultimately be released.  It does have a patent pending.  I do not know what the retail price will be.

But until I get a chance to put together video segments shot, here is a teaser about what makes it different in my mind from my kitchen counter:



Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Billedis

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2016, 09:49 PM »
Looks interesting.  Thanks for sharing Bill

Offline Edward A Reno III

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 07:39 AM »
Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 08:56 AM »
Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.

Ed,  curious about your comment.  Which aluminum do you think will deform?  The square?  The track?  The bearing area of the square to the side of track is about 5.75 inches.

I have nothing to do with the manufacturer or the sales of this square so these questions are just for knowledge.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 08:57 AM »
Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.
I have had the opportunity to use this new square extensively.
not visible in Peter,s video clip: the square is not a flat plate . It has a raised surface that backs up the the track edge for about six inches so the clamping action simply holds two pieces of metal together which are already up against each other. The guide rail tracks are not soft. they are heat treated, probably to a T5 or T6 temper, or you would not able to keep them straight in normal use. stay tuned for more details.
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Offline Cheese

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 09:36 AM »
I wouldn't worry about any rail damage as that is just a simple over center spring clamp that doesn't provide a lot of "track bending power."

http://www.southco.com/en-ca/97

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 09:50 AM »
I wouldn't worry about any rail damage as that is just a simple over center spring clamp that doesn't provide a lot of "track bending power."

http://www.southco.com/en-ca/97

Rainy day today.  I checked the clamp on the one I have and it is a Southco.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 01:36 PM »
That's brilliant! I was fiddling around with a square last year but never came up with a method of attaching to the rail that I really liked. Kudos to the designer!

RMW
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Offline Edward A Reno III

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 04:07 PM »
I was thinking about the track, but based on others comments I guess it wouldn't be an issue?

Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.

Ed,  curious about your comment.  Which aluminum do you think will deform?  The square?  The track?  The bearing area of the square to the side of track is about 5.75 inches.

I have nothing to do with the manufacturer or the sales of this square so these questions are just for knowledge.

Peter
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 05:04 PM »
Assuming the "hook" is pressing the side wall of the slot against the square there should not be any tendency to twist the AL making up the slot. If it is pulling on the lip of the slot then there might be some potential bend it slightly. I think it will depng on how far the hook extends into the slot. Hope this makes sense.

RMW

I was thinking about the track, but based on others comments I guess it wouldn't be an issue?

Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.

Ed,  curious about your comment.  Which aluminum do you think will deform?  The square?  The track?  The bearing area of the square to the side of track is about 5.75 inches.

I have nothing to do with the manufacturer or the sales of this square so these questions are just for knowledge.

Peter
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2016, 09:26 AM »
thanks for the interest and comments regarding our new GRS-16 Guide Rail Square.
Look for our own video and complete details on the story in a post following the 4th of July weekend with the launch of production shipments.
We've moved from being a FESTOOL user to accessory developer and manufacturer as part of our business serving tradespeople who use our products in their line of work. A reason to change our status to "RETAILER" and our "handle" to the business name: "TSO Products" - but my nickname is still "Klemm".
Have a great 4th of July Holiday wherever you are!
see you next week on the FOG
Klemm
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2016, 09:24 AM »
our plan to go live with video and information about our new GRS-16 "5-second" Guide Rail Square was put on hold by a major MICROSOFT OFFICE 365 Exchange Online problem.
We have been running our business on OFFICE 365 for a good number of years and this is the first time that we have been effectively shut down and now more than a week.
We have Product ready to ship, a video and text to explain it but are still waiting for our online capability to come back online.
Last night MS said they "have 79% of the fix deployed"  and "expected to complete within 48 hours"

thanks for bearing with us!
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Offline scottie

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2016, 11:50 AM »
Just watched your product video:
Looks incredible!
I was sad to miss the woodpecker's one-time square. Now I'm glad I did.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2016, 03:20 PM »
Awesome design! I ordered one, looking forward to using it, much easier than the setup I was fiddling with.

I assume you limited the length specifically so it will fit in a systainer, which makes sense, As a suggestion, I would prefer a longer one to improve accuracy, and would pay a premium for it.

Good luck, doubtless there will be tons of demand.  [thumbs up]

RMW
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Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2016, 03:25 PM »
I just ordered one too, looking forward to using it

Regards

Dale

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2016, 03:48 PM »
Very good design.  I may have to add to the wish list.
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2016, 03:58 PM »
I grabbed my square out and a full sheet of plywood.  Using my Starrett carpenter square which has been tested for square the plywood was amazingly square.  Then using the square to set my distance I tried it out this blue rail square using the 2700 rail and the 1400 rail.  Using the long rail it is a bit of a wrestling match due to the sticky rubber strip on the bottom of the rail.  I was able to get consistently to within 1/16" of square at 96".  Grabbing a speed square on the other end it was so quick to adjust.  Using a 1400 rail it was nuts on every time.  I believe that to be due to the foam on the plywood - not the accuracy of the square.

Now what I want is one made in a mirror image so that it could be installed on the other end of the rail and then quickly slid into place to square the other end when using a long rail.  As quickly as they adjust it would really cut down on the rail adjusting dance - if you know what I mean.

They are ruggedly built.  Last week I was going to shoot a video (OOPS) while at work and I placed the square and a short section of rail on the trunk of my wife's car so that I could open the van door.  I then got distracted and went off to work.  I discovered on the job that I didn't have what I needed for the video.  RATS!.  When I came home my wife asked me to run to the grocery store - 16 miles round trip.  I took her car.  The next morning I noticed the rail on her trunk (it stayed there for 16 miles at speeds up to 65 MPH).   [thumbs up] The square was out in the street.   [eek] Anodizing a little messed up on the corners but otherwise OK.  [big grin]

Peter

« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 04:03 PM by Peter Halle »
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2016, 05:24 PM »
They are ruggedly built.  Last week I was going to shoot a video (OOPS) while at work and I placed the square and a short section of rail on the trunk of my wife's car so that I could open the van door.  I then got distracted and went off to work.  I discovered on the job that I didn't have what I needed for the video.  RATS!.  When I came home my wife asked me to run to the grocery store - 16 miles round trip.  I took her car.  The next morning I noticed the rail on her trunk (it stayed there for 16 miles at speeds up to 65 MPH).   [thumbs up] The square was out in the street.   [eek] Anodizing a little messed up on the corners but otherwise OK.  [big grin]

Peter

Peter,
Now this would have made for a great video, and a testimonial to the fact clamping the rail is optional!
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2016, 08:36 PM »
I just ordered one too, looking forward to using it

Regards

Dale

How did you do that. There seems to be only one obscure (to me) way to pay.


Offline copcarcollector

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2016, 01:06 AM »
How did you do that. There seems to be only one obscure (to me) way to pay.

@Michael Kellough

Click the button that says "Authorize.net", the next step will let you enter a credit card. "Authorize.net" is their cc processor

They should change that  language online in my opinion...



« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 01:10 AM by copcarcollector »

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2016, 08:03 AM »
Good morning FOG members and thank you . . .
- for your patience - MICROSOFT Online was back up for us and running last night
- for your feedback which we take very seriously (more on that later)
- for your orders  from coast-to-coast in the US and also overseas!

we're shipping [smile]

Klemm
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Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2016, 10:13 AM »
 I sent along the following suggestions via the website.

Offer a discount for two ( 2) or more. Perhaps during the free shipping 30 days.

Expand the video to show usefulness of two guides with sheet goods or long trim board

Post schematic drawing so we can easily make a box, tray or holster. My guess is someone quickly will come up with a holster to attach to the MFT rail. Of course you can measure but a top and side drawing would be a help to construct a holder of some kind if a #1 Systainer was not in the offing.

It has two triangular opening but an extra hole at the pointed end would help to hang it on the wall or from a hook on the MFT rail.

Throw in an extra screw. These are hard to find and it is unlikely but some keep track of small parts for future use.

Woodpeckers would have added a rule along the long edge for what I don't know but they just add rules to everything they make. (LOL) Then they would have offered either Metric or Imperial with one in stainless steel.

It is on my shopping list. I can see the usefulness of two. Perhaps a second one could be developed that acts just as a holder in place that would not have to be that large that would sell for about half the cost.
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2016, 10:47 AM »
I sent along the following suggestions via the website.

Offer a discount for two ( 2) or more. Perhaps during the free shipping 30 days.

Expand the video to show usefulness of two guides with sheet goods or long trim board

Post schematic drawing so we can easily make a box, tray or holster. My guess is someone quickly will come up with a holster to attach to the MFT rail. Of course you can measure but a top and side drawing would be a help to construct a holder of some kind if a #1 Systainer was not in the offing.

It has two triangular opening but an extra hole at the pointed end would help to hang it on the wall or from a hook on the MFT rail.

Throw in an extra screw. These are hard to find and it is unlikely but some keep track of small parts for future use.

Woodpeckers would have added a rule along the long edge for what I don't know but they just add rules to everything they make. (LOL) Then they would have offered either Metric or Imperial with one in stainless steel.

It is on my shopping list. I can see the usefulness of two. Perhaps a second one could be developed that acts just as a holder in place that would not have to be that large that would sell for about half the cost.
Clark - thanks for the organized list of suggestions and comments.
Qty discount idea: we'll see how quickly we can upload that functionality on the website. We still have a lot of work to do on the integration of this product and all the back-end functions. If we don't get it done quickly, the idea will remain on our plate.

Using two squares: Peter Halle made a suggestion for a Square to go on the opposite end - a mirror image product. Is that what you also have in mind? We can do that if there is sufficient indication of interest. We can mention it in the video re-do and see what comments we get.

Holster / tool holder is in the works already based on earlier suggestions during field testing - thanks for reinforcing the need.

Systainer storage: we are wondering if there is a sufficient need to warrant tooling up a Systainer insert of High density EPS foam like FESTOOL uses as (black) filler blocks when shipping some power tools need - let us know. Likely adds about $ 10 to cost for foam, larger box and shipping.

Hole for hanging: we considered it at first before realizing that there are already two perfectly "easy" hanging holes in the form of the open triangles. No aiming required to carefully hang - anything will work as a hook or peg. Your reaction to our response, please.

Extra Screws: - AMEN to that. We chose Imperial fasteners to simplify replacement issues in the field. We spell it out in the website specs, too. We may choose to include a couple of extra screws in future shipments. Meanwhile if anyone loses a screw, we'll mail out no charge replacements anyway:)

Laser engraving; we can do that when we see a justifiable value - probably on a future and different product.

keep the feedback coming - we'll post updates

Klemm




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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2016, 10:53 AM »
After I posted my comment on a mirror image square for the opposite end (not for everyone's usage of course and would only be of use if the sheet or workpiece had two parallel edges) I realized that would probably preclude the use of the 2700 rail on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and the 1400 as a crosscut unless it was of a different and smaller design.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2016, 11:04 AM »
After I posted my comment on a mirror image square for the opposite end (not for everyone's usage of course and would only be of use if the sheet or workpiece had two parallel edges) I realized that would probably preclude the use of the 2700 rail on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and the 1400 as a crosscut unless it was of a different and smaller design.

Peter
Peter, why would a mirror image GRS-16-R Square not work with any rail, regardless of length? - what am I not understanding?
Klemm
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Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2016, 11:12 AM »
I sent along the following suggestions via the website.

Offer a discount for two ( 2) or more. Perhaps during the free shipping 30 days.

Expand the video to show usefulness of two guides with sheet goods or long trim board

Post schematic drawing so we can easily make a box, tray or holster. My guess is someone quickly will come up with a holster to attach to the MFT rail. Of course you can measure but a top and side drawing would be a help to construct a holder of some kind if a #1 Systainer was not in the offing.

It has two triangular opening but an extra hole at the pointed end would help to hang it on the wall or from a hook on the MFT rail.

Throw in an extra screw. These are hard to find and it is unlikely but some keep track of small parts for future use.

Woodpeckers would have added a rule along the long edge for what I don't know but they just add rules to everything they make. (LOL) Then they would have offered either Metric or Imperial with one in stainless steel.

It is on my shopping list. I can see the usefulness of two. Perhaps a second one could be developed that acts just as a holder in place that would not have to be that large that would sell for about half the cost.
Clark - thanks for the organized list of suggestions and comments.
Qty discount idea: we'll see how quickly we can upload that functionality on the website. We still have a lot of work to do on the integration of this product and all the back-end functions. If we don't get it done quickly, the idea will remain on our plate.

Thanks. For now I would wait for the mirror image modification.

Using two squares: Peter Halle made a suggestion for a Square to go on the opposite end - a mirror image product. Is that what you also have in mind? We can do that if there is sufficient indication of interest. We can mention it in the video re-do and see what comments we get.

I was thinking more of a cut down version that would just be a holder so you could run around and more easily clamp the rail in place making sure there was no drift. Not so much a mirror image but just half or a third of the size with the emphasis on the primary holder to square the rail.  I was also thinking of how the guides slide along the table. It seems to me that the steps are to loosen the clamps and with the holder guide at the north end, it more easily slides along to the next cut on the square.

Holster / tool holder is in the works already based on earlier suggestions during field testing - thanks for reinforcing the need.

I always worry about a tool or square falling on the floor I work on concrete floors. I want to put it safely away.

Systainer storage: we are wondering if there is a sufficient need to warrant tooling up a Systainer insert of High density EPS foam like FESTOOL uses as (black) filler blocks when shipping some power tools need - let us know. Likely adds about $ 10 to cost for foam, larger box and shipping.

No interest here. Too mercurial for me.

Hole for hanging: we considered it at first before realizing that there are already two perfectly "easy" hanging holes in the form of the open triangles. No aiming required to carefully hang - anything will work as a hook or peg. Your reaction to our response, please.

It is a matter of gravity. How will it hang on the wall?  My thought was that if the hole was at the pointed end, it would better hang straight down rather than hang at a tilt.



Extra Screws: - AMEN to that. We chose Imperial fasteners to simplify replacement issues in the field. We spell it out in the website specs, too. We may choose to include a couple of extra screws in future shipments. Meanwhile if anyone loses a screw, we'll mail out no charge replacements anyway:)

Laser engraving; we can do that when we see a justifiable value - probably on a future and different product.

No value. I was just kidding about what would Woodpecker do? They go overboard with features.

keep the feedback coming - we'll post updates

Klemm
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2016, 11:47 AM »
@TSO Products

Hi,

I'm getting "free freight" on shipping to Australia .. Not complaining, just confirming before I enter my credit card details [smile]

Kev.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2016, 12:17 PM »
Peter, why would a mirror image GRS-16-R Square not work with any rail, regardless of length? - what am I not understanding?
Klemm

If you consider how much room each square takes on the rail, then I think that you will see certain combinations of rail and 2 squares do not allow for the full 4 ft or 8 ft to fit between the squares.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2016, 12:38 PM »
@TSO Products

Hi,

I'm getting "free freight" on shipping to Australia .. Not complaining, just confirming before I enter my credit card details [smile]

Kev.
Kev,
yes, we will pay shipping for this product introduction - including to you friends in Australia. We are planning to use US Postal Service for shipping. We just checked on UPS shipping cost to the UK, which is based on air shipment only and shipping cost would be $ 157.71 not including any fees at the receiving end. You can see why we are planning to us the Post Office - slower but more reasonable cost.

Klemm
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Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2016, 01:40 PM »
After I posted my comment on a mirror image square for the opposite end (not for everyone's usage of course and would only be of use if the sheet or workpiece had two parallel edges) I realized that would probably preclude the use of the 2700 rail on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and the 1400 as a crosscut unless it was of a different and smaller design.

Peter

Peter:
What if you cleaned up the factory edge of the far side?

You have used it. Is it possible to slide the guide in and use the bottom against the far side of the cut?

Instead of a triangle, could it be made square with two long sides so they could be used on both ends of the cut? This would solve the mirror image?

Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2016, 02:06 PM »
After I posted my comment on a mirror image square for the opposite end (not for everyone's usage of course and would only be of use if the sheet or workpiece had two parallel edges) I realized that would probably preclude the use of the 2700 rail on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and the 1400 as a crosscut unless it was of a different and smaller design.

Peter

Peter:
What if you cleaned up the factory edge of the far side?

You have used it. Is it possible to slide the guide in and use the bottom against the far side of the cut?

Instead of a triangle, could it be made square with two long sides so they could be used on both ends of the cut? This would solve the mirror image?

Clark
I'll take a picture later on today  of such a Square we already made here and see if there is interest
Klemm
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Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2016, 02:49 PM »
Clark
I'll take a picture later on today  of such a Square we already made here and see if there is interest
Klemm

Congratulations on such a rapid development and release. I'm sorry my schedule didn't allow me to be more involved. You've got a nice, solid design. I like it.

I don't want to say too much in an open forum, but I believe you could make the existing design be either right- or left-handed by just increasing its length a little, and permitting the clamp to be unscrewed and reversed. This way, the user can decide. If you need further explanation, shoot me an email.

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2016, 03:31 PM »
I'd be happy with something on the other end a little like the under rail trigger clamp.

I'll play with it when I get my square.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2016, 05:15 PM »
Clark
I'll take a picture later on today  of such a Square we already made here and see if there is interest
Klemm

Congratulations on such a rapid development and release. I'm sorry my schedule didn't allow me to be more involved. You've got a nice, solid design. I like it.

I don't want to say too much in an open forum, but I believe you could make the existing design be either right- or left-handed by just increasing its length a little, and permitting the clamp to be unscrewed and reversed. This way, the user can decide. If you need further explanation, shoot me an email.

the pictures show both our current GRS-16 Square (anodized blue) and an earlier development version in bare machined aluminum. As you can see, the rectangular shape allows its use either left or right hand with one tool. We can build a lighter weight version with this feature if there is an indication of strong interest. We might come up with a "set" and offer the  better "set price" to all who ordered the current product prior to the LEFT/RIGHT Dual use version becoming available.

Let us hear from you all
Klemm
PS: the compliments from you folks with your own successful development experience is especially appreciated - thank you!
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Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2016, 06:28 PM »
Clark
I'll take a picture later on today  of such a Square we already made here and see if there is interest
Klemm

Congratulations on such a rapid development and release. I'm sorry my schedule didn't allow me to be more involved. You've got a nice, solid design. I like it.

I don't want to say too much in an open forum, but I believe you could make the existing design be either right- or left-handed by just increasing its length a little, and permitting the clamp to be unscrewed and reversed. This way, the user can decide. If you need further explanation, shoot me an email.

the pictures show both our current GRS-16 Square (anodized blue) and an earlier development version in bare machined aluminum. As you can see, the rectangular shape allows its use either left or right hand with one tool. We can build a lighter weight version with this feature if there is an indication of strong interest. We might come up with a "set" and offer the  better "set price" to all who ordered the current product prior to the LEFT/RIGHT Dual use version becoming available.

Let us hear from you all
Klemm
PS: the compliments from you folks with your own successful development experience is especially appreciated - thank you!

Can we see the rest of the prototype? (The bottom ? ) Looks a little clunky.  I favor  a dual version with the more streamlined look of the GRS-16 Guide, perhaps in a rectangular form.

I definitely think a dual version would be helpful.
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2016, 07:14 PM »
Clark
functionally, the rest of the Prototype is identical to the current product. Only the "streamlined" form needs to be replicated in a rectangle instead of a triangle.
Give us a little time to get going on that - we still need to catch up with our online functionality, and an updated video among other tasks
Klemm
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Offline jdm5

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2016, 07:34 PM »
Interested in a set - already ordered your production unit.
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline Billy stray

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2016, 08:31 PM »
Yes, definitely a systainer insert is in order here [thumbs up]
Billy

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2016, 08:58 PM »
While I can see the functionality of the square version I can say that based on my usage - out on site and wanting to have something to throw in a pouch I wouldn't buy that one.  Personally I think that it might be an idea for a  second product.

Respectfully,

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2016, 10:17 PM »
Yes, definitely a systainer insert is in order here [thumbs up]

 any other votes for a Systainer sized molded EPS filler to store GRS-16 Guide Rail Square?
Klemm
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Offline jdm5

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2016, 06:51 AM »
If reasonably priced yes I'd want a foam insert - $15-20.
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2016, 07:00 AM »
Yes, definitely a systainer insert is in order here [thumbs up]

 any other votes for a Systainer sized molded EPS filler to store GRS-16 Guide Rail Square?
Klemm

Yes, why the heck not .. ?

For what it's worth I'm contemplating the idea of building storage with variable height drawers with an internal footprint that is systainer compatible. This would mean that I'd move all of my systainer inserts with tools and accessories into simple drawers.

.. it's just a working thought, but either way .. a protective tray of some sort to look after a valuable investment makes a lot of good sense [wink]

Offline bryan1982

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2016, 08:06 AM »
This product looks awesome well done

Ill be getting one in the next day or so

Cheers

Bryan

Offline jimbo51

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2016, 02:11 PM »
Would a larger version which could fit in a midi be more stable or accurate? I would switch my order to that one assuming the price difference was not too great.

Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2016, 03:06 PM »
Yes, definitely a systainer insert is in order here [thumbs up]

 any other votes for a Systainer sized molded EPS filler to store GRS-16 Guide Rail Square?
Klemm

Add me to the vote!!

Dale

Offline thylaxene

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2016, 05:08 PM »
any other votes for a Systainer sized molded EPS filler to store GRS-16 Guide Rail Square?
Klemm

+1

Offline Tom Gensmer

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2016, 09:45 PM »
I have had a chance to play around with this squaring device and I can confidently say it is both very accurate AND the installation is nearly instant. Just slide it onto the track, engage the clamp/toggle and you're good to go! While this will of course be great for cross cutting larger sheets and panels, I think this is going to be particularly handy for cross cutting smaller work pieces.

The square is sized such that it will just fit into a Systainer, great planning! I'm excited to see more of these out on job sites, I'd put this in the "Must Have" column of your accessories wish list.
CT-26, CT-MIDI, CT-36 AC, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF1010, OF-1400 (x2), MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x2), MFT/Kapex (x3), CMS-OF, Sprinter full of Systainers

Offline bryan1982

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2016, 07:50 AM »
Clark
functionally, the rest of the Prototype is identical to the current product. Only the "streamlined" form needs to be replicated in a rectangle instead of a triangle.
Give us a little time to get going on that - we still need to catch up with our online functionality, and an updated video among other tasks
Klemm

@TSO Products

l can See a few use for Square plate So you Can reference it off the top of the panel .

you have already Scribed your panel or kick to the floor in a kitchen so you cant reference off that face toget a Square cut if it can go of the top of the panel

that would be awesome.
IS there any Chance these Will be made?

cheers Bryan

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2016, 10:58 AM »


in response to the interest for an additional model with two parallel edges we will definitely introduce this version with retro-active "set-pricing" for purchasers of the current standard GRS-16 after some questions have been answered with input from customers and FOG members:
How much interest / need is there for the ability to store the set of Standard GRS-16 and the new "GRS-16PE Parallel Edge" in one taller Systainer standing diagonally on edge? When designing for this confined space every millimeter starts to count. With flat bottoms the pair can be stored back-to-back minimizing the combined diagonal length but we're really, really tight.

More comments, please!
Klemm


@TSO Products

l can See a few use for Square plate So you Can reference it off the top of the panel .

you have already Scribed your panel or kick to the floor in a kitchen so you cant reference off that face to get a Square cut if it can go of the top of the panel

that would be awesome.
IS there any Chance these Will be made?

cheers Bryan
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Offline vkumar

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2016, 03:44 PM »
@TSO Products I would be definitely interested in the set.  What is your eta in the availability of the unit?  Better to wait till you have both ?
Also would definitely like the systainer insert.
Vijay Kumar
Size Large

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2016, 08:54 PM »
@TSO Products I would be definitely interested in the set.  What is your eta in the availability of the unit?  Better to wait till you have both ?
Also would definitely like the systainer insert.

at this early stage I would suggest ordering what is available now since you will be able to get the special set price as long as you order it within a reasonably short time after it is introduced for sale probably early fall.
Systainer storge option is being worked as  I write this.
Klemm
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Offline neilc

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2016, 12:07 AM »
Received mine today.  Great product and amazingly easy to install and maintain a rigid square!

Thanks for coming up with this!


Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2016, 02:45 AM »
@TSO Products

Do you thing there's any chance that you'd be able to shape the Systainer insert in a way that it can support both versions (current and looming) so that they both stack safely into one Systainer?

(One flush and the larger area one slightly raised and supported on some of its edges)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 07:00 AM by Kev »

Offline Tinker

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2016, 04:09 AM »
I like your idea.  I would think a design mentioned by others to be ablle to use either at worker's end or far end would be handier. 
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2016, 02:48 PM »
this weekend will see a number of woodworkers having their first opportunity to try out the GRS-16 Guid Rail Square - just like Neil reported. We appreciate the feedback, compliments and suggestions! - thank you all!
The next product,  GRS-16 PE Parallel Edge Square , is expected to store as a set, back-to-back in a Systainer 2 on edge.

One important step all of you can take is to help and spread the word in social media, INSTAGRAM especially.
The more people are aware and buying, the more practical it becomes to offer solutions. - every  CLICK counts  [smile]
Klemm


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Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2016, 03:04 PM »
@TSO Products

Received mine yesterday and immediately ran out to the shop and clicked it onto a rail to admire, then repeated to myself "great design"! I had fiddled with a design of my own about a year ago but never liked the outcome and just let it linger (while still using the prototype). Typical CNC prototype costs, if I had ordered 1 unit it would cost me a couple hundred bucks, if I ordered 10 they were only 2X the single unit cost. Figured I would sell off the extra 8 and recoup my $$ but never got around to it. Oops.

My next thought was "Now what the heck am I going to do with the 10 squares I have?" Oh well...  [doh]

My last thought was, "Boy, I'm glad I'm not waiting for the WoodPeckers OTT version to show up!"  [poke]

Best of luck with your creations.

RMW
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 03:11 PM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2016, 03:34 PM »
Richard,
I figured you'd be out on your deck by now with your new Square:)
nice to hear from someone who knows first hand what it takes to develop a product and bring it to market. We are firm believers in having the product in production before we take orders. 'nuff said!

Klemm
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Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2016, 04:16 PM »
Richard,
I figured you'd be out on your deck by now with your new Square:)
nice to hear from someone who knows first hand what it takes to develop a product and bring it to market. We are firm believers in having the product in production before we take orders. 'nuff said!

Klemm

LoL ... FSO Products RTT ... Real Time Tools [wink] [big grin]

... it's pretty bad when you order a tool from (let's just call them) company 'W" and a real decision factor is "will I still want it and will I still be around when it finally arrives?" [eek]

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2016, 04:24 PM »
Richard,
I figured you'd be out on your deck by now with your new Square:)
nice to hear from someone who knows first hand what it takes to develop a product and bring it to market. We are firm believers in having the product in production before we take orders. 'nuff said!

Klemm

LoL ... FSO Products RTT ... Real Time Tools [wink] [big grin]

... it's pretty bad when you order a tool from (let's just call them) company 'W" and a real decision factor is "will I still want it and will I still be around when it finally arrives?" [eek]

Ha! Bad enough my wife will have to figure out what to do with all this stuff when I croak, she'll really be ticked when it keeps showing up for the next 8-10 months...

RMW
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Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2016, 04:37 PM »
A tinkling piano in the next apartment ...



Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2016, 04:50 PM »
A tinkling piano in the next apartment ...

Had to consult the Oracle before I figgered that one out.

She'll also keep getting the credit card bills...

RMW
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:18 PM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2016, 07:15 PM »
Tinkling in the Nextel apartment makes me think that MacGyver has escaped to the office and is tin....

I am looking to an in depth review of the square.

After all, when I started this thread I didn't say that I was going to be the only one to do a review.   [big grin]

Have fun  and be safe!

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2016, 08:01 PM »
I was going to order this brilliant square but am now confused as to whether I should hold out for the parallel square. Am I correct into thinking that the parallel square can be used at front top end of the track (either end) but will be bigger than the current version which can be stored in a future holster  due to the triangular shape but cannot be used at either end?

So the next model the parallel square will function as the first one but will do more, is this correct? If yes then should I wait for the second one?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2016, 11:33 PM »
I was going to order this brilliant square but am now confused as to whether I should hold out for the parallel square. Am I correct into thinking that the parallel square can be used at front top end of the track (either end) but will be bigger than the current version which can be stored in a future holster  due to the triangular shape but cannot be used at either end?

So the next model the parallel square will function as the first one but will do more, is this correct? If yes then should I wait for the second one?
Standard GRS-16 vs its stablemate GRS-16 PE:
both tools will fit into a rectangular footprint of approx 16 x 6 inches. While the Standard tool has the corners clipped into a triangle to fit flat into any Systainer TL, the parallel edge version will only fit into a Systainer 2 or taller standing on edge diagonally. A set of two consisting of Standard and PE version will both fit together in one Systainer TL back-to-back. The PE version will be bulkier but not much heavier. It will perform its function equally well on either end of a guide rail.
The Standard GRS-16 tool will be preferred, we expect, for everyday use - just a more compact size. But when you need to work from the other end, there will be no substitue for the PE version. And for long sheets, having a square at each end will be a plus for accuracy over the longer reach.
Hope this helps.

Klemm
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2016, 11:37 PM »
Richard,
I figured you'd be out on your deck by now with your new Square:)
nice to hear from someone who knows first hand what it takes to develop a product and bring it to market. We are firm believers in having the product in production before we take orders. 'nuff said!

Klemm
Hey Kev,
do we have your permission to TradeMark our tools  "RTT" tools - that is pretty descriptive along with a bit of FOG humor :)
Klemm

LoL ... FSO Products RTT ... Real Time Tools [wink] [big grin]

... it's pretty bad when you order a tool from (let's just call them) company 'W" and a real decision factor is "will I still want it and will I still be around when it finally arrives?" [eek]
TSOproducts.com
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares - and the MTR-18 Triangle

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7452
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2016, 12:17 AM »
Klemm, I'd be honoured if you did [wink]

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 115
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2016, 05:55 AM »
I was going to order this brilliant square but am now confused as to whether I should hold out for the parallel square. Am I correct into thinking that the parallel square can be used at front top end of the track (either end) but will be bigger than the current version which can be stored in a future holster  due to the triangular shape but cannot be used at either end?

So the next model the parallel square will function as the first one but will do more, is this correct? If yes then should I wait for the second one?
Standard GRS-16 vs its stablemate GRS-16 PE:
both tools will fit into a rectangular footprint of approx 16 x 6 inches. While the Standard tool has the corners clipped into a triangle to fit flat into any Systainer TL, the parallel edge version will only fit into a Systainer 2 or taller standing on edge diagonally. A set of two consisting of Standard and PE version will both fit together in one Systainer TL back-to-back. The PE version will be bulkier but not much heavier. It will perform its function equally well on either end of a guide rail.
The Standard GRS-16 tool will be preferred, we expect, for everyday use - just a more compact size. But when you need to work from the other end, there will be no substitue for the PE version. And for long sheets, having a square at each end will be a plus for accuracy over the longer reach.
Hope this helps.

Klemm


@TSO Products
Hey i just bought the current model. Love the free freight to australia.
i think the pe vesion would be better so you can referance off either the top or bottom. Im not sure why it has to be bigger it just needs to be rectangle.

 Not sure i would use the 2 at the same  time.
Do we have a time frame on the next model?

Cheers

Bryan

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2016, 06:48 AM »
@TSO_Products

Any idea on what the pe square will cost when introduced? Can this be pre-ordered?

If the set is ordered ie the current model now and then when pe square is availble , what will be the total price?

@Bryan1983

I think if made smaller the accuracy may be effected as the edge that is aligned with the edge of the track must have a good reasonable contact area to prevent track perpendicular error maybe☺

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 115
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2016, 08:02 AM »
@TSO_Products

@tazprime38
For me in only trying to cut say a 870mm high back panel on a kitchen having used the hkc track a


Any idea on what the pe square will cost when introduced? Can this be pre-ordered?

If the set is ordered ie the current model now and then when pe square is availble , what will be the total price?

@Bryan1983

I think if made smaller the accuracy may be effected as the edge that is aligned with the edge of the track must have a good reasonable contact area to prevent track perpendicular error maybe☺
@tazprime38
For me in only trying to cut say a 870mm high back panel on a kitchen.

having used the hkc track and seeing how accurate  that is i just need this product to reference off the top because some times I've already scribed the bottom and need to use the longer track. and use ts 55 instead of the HKC -

Bryan


Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3426
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2016, 09:04 AM »
Richard,
I figured you'd be out on your deck by now with your new Square:)
nice to hear from someone who knows first hand what it takes to develop a product and bring it to market. We are firm believers in having the product in production before we take orders. 'nuff said!

Klemm

LoL ... FSO Products RTT ... Real Time Tools [wink] [big grin]

... it's pretty bad when you order a tool from (let's just call them) company 'W" and a real decision factor is "will I still want it and will I still be around when it finally arrives?" [eek]

Ha! Bad enough my wife will have to figure out what to do with all this stuff when I croak, she'll really be ticked when it keeps showing up for the next 8-10 months...

RMW
@TSO Products

Received mine yesterday and immediately ran out to the shop and clicked it onto a rail to admire, then repeated to myself "great design"! I had fiddled with a design of my own about a year ago but never liked the outcome and just let it linger (while still using the prototype). Typical CNC prototype costs, if I had ordered 1 unit it would cost me a couple hundred bucks, if I ordered 10 they were only 2X the single unit cost. Figured I would sell off the extra 8 and recoup my $$ but never got around to it. Oops.

My next thought was "Now what the heck am I going to do with the 10 squares I have?" Oh well...  [doh]

My last thought was, "Boy, I'm glad I'm not waiting for the WoodPeckers OTT version to show up!"  [poke]

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [doh]

Best of luck with your creations.

RMW
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2016, 10:17 AM »
@TSO_Products

Any idea on what the pe square will cost when introduced? Can this be pre-ordered?

If the set is ordered ie the current model now and then when pe square is availble , what will be the total price?

@Bryan1983

I think if made smaller the accuracy may be effected as the edge that is aligned with the edge of the track must have a good reasonable contact area to prevent track perpendicular error maybe☺

pricing the GRS-16 PE:
we expect the individual price will be in the same order of magnitude for each of the Square Tools. The price advantage of sets is also still under consideration but it will be helpful to our customers. As we said before, the set price advantage will be extended to early purchasers of the standard GRS-16 until the PE version is available. Then the retroactive set-pricing will no longer be available.

We do not want to go down the road of soliciting or accepting pre-orders for standard products as a matter of differentiating business principle.

Klemm
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Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 926
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2016, 12:49 PM »
@TSO_Products

Klemm,
A big thank you to you, Hans, and Eric for the extra quick shipping.  I got mine yesterday and just in time to make some cuts this weekend!  You guys really rock!

Mike A.

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2016, 01:10 PM »
@TSO_Products

Klemm,
A big thank you to you, Hans, and Eric for the extra quick shipping.  I got mine yesterday and just in time to make some cuts this weekend!  You guys really rock!

Mike A.

Mike
glad to help and kind of you to acknowledge the extra effort- your kudos will be passed along - we know what it's like when you're trying to get something done and are waiting for a delivery.
Klemm
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Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2016, 02:50 PM »
I have been thinking that using both squares current one and the pe together top and bottom of track would almost act like a clamp on the piece being cut.

Two problems I see;

1) If the top and bottom edges of piece being cut are not parallel to each other, only one square can sit at 90° to the edge of workpiece. This therefore defeats the purpose of using two squares.

2) You cannot really tighten the second square tight the the top edge as you woul need to be able to move the square down the track after clamping to ensure tight and square positioning. Similar to tightening a normal threaded  or bar clamp.

I hope I have made sense

Offline squawkin

  • Posts: 44
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2016, 03:53 PM »
I just ordered mine.  [big grin]

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 301
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2016, 07:31 PM »
@TSO Products  just placed an order. Hoping for more info on availability of accessories such as the other square , systainer inserts etc.
Vijay Kumar
Size Large

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2016, 08:33 PM »
thank you all for the continuing flow of orders. More GRS-16's are continuing to be machined this week.
After we have actual pre-production examples of the -PE  models  in August, we can get serious about the best ways to provide protection in Systainers. Systainer 2 does not leave a lot of cushioning room. Better take a look with the real article and see what makes sense.

We have been looking for indications that enough interest would justify producing molded High-Density EPS filler blocks matching the interior shape of the Systainer. (think Tooling and inventory $)

Some of these issues are more a bit more complex than you might imagine. For example - the current GRS-16 ships in an 18x6x6 box and weighs right at 3 lbs. But UPS (and FedEx, too) look at the combination of weight and/or volume to determine cost. Even though our current package weights only 3 lbs, we are being charged for 4 lbs based on the volume occupied by our shipment in the UPS stream of packages.
So you say just make the box smaller so its "dim weight" comes down. No technical problem - just an economic one. Saving labor cost associated with cutting down the taller box manually means the smaller box would have to be a custom box (tooling cost, inventory and warehouse $). To make that work would require visibility on future demand. But we are already talking about change the pack to possibly include the EPS filler block which will definitely have us shipping based on Dimension rather than weight. Well if that's the case, you say, just pack the GRS-16 and the GRS-16PE together as a set - probably cost the same as only one square in the box. Forgot to mention that a bigger box$ is required.

I am writing all this not to complain or justify anything. Instead I hope some of you will find a look behind the scenes informative. After all, you're clearly are more technically interested and understanding audience than 99% of (power-) tool buyers.

We have opted, above all, to be a nimble developer of specialty products which make our customer's work more productive and more enjoyable. This means not settling for the way things are usually done. Let us know anytime you feel we're slacking.

Klemm
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Offline SMJoinery

  • Posts: 528
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2016, 03:25 AM »
Hi Klemm

New product looks very good and looks to solve the problem of using the guide rails accurately when out on site away from the workshop and MFT.
I may have missed it but can you confirm shipping costs and ETA to Mainland Uk, Central Scotland. FK postcode?
If it's easier send me over a shipping container full of them and I'll easily sell them here for you and send back the proceeds! [big grin]
Thanks and well done on what appears to be a great product.
Scott

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 115
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2016, 04:41 AM »
@TSO Products

Will the pe product ship free when it first comes out? I just bought the current model

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3426
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2016, 04:55 AM »
thank you all for the continuing flow of orders. More GRS-16's are continuing to be machined this week.
After we have actual pre-production examples of the -PE  models  in August, we can get serious about the best ways to provide protection in Systainers. Systainer 2 does not leave a lot of cushioning room. Better take a look with the real article and see what makes sense.

We have been looking for indications that enough interest would justify producing molded High-Density EPS filler blocks matching the interior shape of the Systainer. (think Tooling and inventory $)

Some of these issues are more a bit more complex than you might imagine. For example - the current GRS-16 ships in an 18x6x6 box and weighs right at 3 lbs. But UPS (and FedEx, too) look at the combination of weight and/or volume to determine cost. Even though our current package weights only 3 lbs, we are being charged for 4 lbs based on the volume occupied by our shipment in the UPS stream of packages.
So you say just make the box smaller so its "dim weight" comes down. No technical problem - just an economic one. Saving labor cost associated with cutting down the taller box manually means the smaller box would have to be a custom box (tooling cost, inventory and warehouse $). To make that work would require visibility on future demand. But we are already talking about change the pack to possibly include the EPS filler block which will definitely have us shipping based on Dimension rather than weight. Well if that's the case, you say, just pack the GRS-16 and the GRS-16PE together as a set - probably cost the same as only one square in the box. Forgot to mention that a bigger box$ is required.

I am writing all this not to complain or justify anything. Instead I hope some of you will find a look behind the scenes informative. After all, you're clearly are more technically interested and understanding audience than 99% of (power-) tool buyers.

We have opted, above all, to be a nimble developer of specialty products which make our customer's work more productive and more enjoyable. This means not settling for the way things are usually done. Let us know anytime you feel we're slacking.

Klemm

@TSO Products
A great explanation. It is a big problem when it comes to packaging.  I often wonder how a small company can afford "free delivery". 
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review,
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2016, 05:55 AM »
On storage .. a padded, zippered option maybe?? I can imagine mine and many others hanging on the wall. If you're mobile, dedicating a systainer is very inefficient.

Additionally, a padded bag becomes primary protection during initial shipping, gives good brand identity options and is compact to roll and ship as a follow on product accessory.

I could also imagine a custom bag for 2x 1400 rails, with two pockets on the front for the GRS squares (yeh, maybe a third pocket for a couple of quick clamps and rail connectors too).

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2016, 08:00 AM »
Hi Klemm

New product looks very good and looks to solve the problem of using the guide rails accurately when out on site away from the workshop and MFT.
I may have missed it but can you confirm shipping costs and ETA to Mainland Uk, Central Scotland. FK postcode?
If it's easier send me over a shipping container full of them and I'll easily sell them here for you and send back the proceeds! [big grin]
Thanks and well done on what appears to be a great product.
Scott
Scott:
Until the end of July shipping is free to international as well as US purchasers for their own use to help give this new product market exposure. We do not plan to extend free shipping to orders received after July 31. There are no plans to sell through dealers in the US or overseas in the foreseeable future.
Klemm
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review,
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2016, 08:17 AM »
On storage .. a padded, zippered option maybe?? I can imagine mine and many others hanging on the wall. If you're mobile, dedicating a systainer is very inefficient.

Additionally, a padded bag becomes primary protection during initial shipping, gives good brand identity options and is compact to roll and ship as a follow on product accessory.

I could also imagine a custom bag for 2x 1400 rails, with two pockets on the front for the GRS squares (yeh, maybe a third pocket for a couple of quick clamps and rail connectors too).

Kev:
you put your finger on a concern we share: the inherent space inefficiency of using a Systainer 2 for the GRS-16 PE.  The padded pouch idea is a possibility when we can get a better idea of the sales volume. The holster idea has been brought up too. We'll keep these ideas in mind as we go forward with the -PE version. - thanks for your input!
Klemm
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2016, 08:29 AM »
@TSO Products

Will the pe product ship free when it first comes out? I just bought the current model

Bryan:
thanks for your GRS-16 order. We are working on costing and pricing for the GRS-16 PE version with the idea of providing a benefit to customers who are buying a set of both square tools - either as a purchase at one time after introduction of the PE or as a retroactive special price for customers who bought the standard tool before the -PE version was available. Where shipping fits in is something still to be figured out.
Klemm
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Offline skinee

  • Posts: 133
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2016, 12:51 PM »
Klemm, will you consider making a model to work on the mafell/bosch rail system? it should be do'able but the draw catch would have to engage on the bottom of the rail in the clamping t-slot,this would present little or no problem in my view,in fact it would enable the fitting of a 'pressing' handle to the top of the square in much the same way as on the EZsmart square

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2016, 02:48 PM »
Hans,

Gave my PG-16 it's maiden voyage, no fiddling with the setup, grabbed a rail - slide - click - cut... perfect!





I checked the first 3-4 cuts, didn't find one with more run-out than perhaps 10-thou over 18" (1/4 MM), which probably came from something other than the guide. This is something we can use with confidence, no need to check the setup or results.

Great addition to the arsenal.

RMW
Add-on products for Festool @ www.ripdogs.com
Discounts for FOG members @ www.ripdogs.com/fog-discount/

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2016, 03:59 PM »
Richard, thank for your report "from the field". May we quote from it on our website and use your great pictures,too - with public or initials only credits?
Klemm
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2016, 04:06 PM »
Klemm, will you consider making a model to work on the mafell/bosch rail system? it should be do'able but the draw catch would have to engage on the bottom of the rail in the clamping t-slot,this would present little or no problem in my view,in fact it would enable the fitting of a 'pressing' handle to the top of the square in much the same way as on the EZsmart square

We would not rule out a model compatible with BOSCH / MAFELL. We will take another look at those guide rails. They obviously require a different approach. Are you a professional? Do you work mobile or from a fixed shop? Perhaps you could send us an email to info@tsoproducts.com and describe what kind of applications you use your track saw for.
Klemm
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Offline mike_aa

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2016, 06:16 PM »
Gave my GRS-16 Guide Rail Square a bit of a workout today with super results.  It snapped right on the rail and was dead on square.  I needed to cut a good number of panels to the same size so I paired it with a Woodpecker's rule and rule stop and got consistent results.  Worked great!



Thanks TSO!

Mike A.

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #90 on: July 17, 2016, 06:27 PM »
@TSO_Products

Klemm, I have just placed my order for the square and will be getting the PE version when it becomes availble.  Please remember to include some spare screws as others have requested.

tazprime

Offline crampedshop

  • Posts: 34
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #91 on: July 17, 2016, 07:27 PM »
Richard/RMW in your recent pic, what is the black piece at about the midpoint of your rail?

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #92 on: July 17, 2016, 09:36 PM »
Mike,
great picture and glad it works for you as expected. Thanks for the feedback. Would you give us permission to add your picture to our web page and credit Mike A. ?
Klemm
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Offline Tinker

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2016, 04:06 AM »
In good weather I sometimes do my breaking down in my most spacious shop area (=wide open spaces) I cut just a little oversize and do my final sizing inside. With this new square, I can see once I have one straight edge, I could probably do all outside cutting to dimensions.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #94 on: July 18, 2016, 08:33 AM »
Feel free to use them as you wish.

RMW


Richard, thank for your report "from the field". May we quote from it on our website and use your great pictures,too - with public or initials only credits?
Klemm
Add-on products for Festool @ www.ripdogs.com
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2016, 08:36 AM »
@mike_aa - that setup pretty much obviates the need for parallel guides in many situations. Faster setup and equal results. I'll probably be using it a lot myself.

RMW


Gave my GRS-16 Guide Rail Square a bit of a workout today with super results.  It snapped right on the rail and was dead on square.  I needed to cut a good number of panels to the same size so I paired it with a Woodpecker's rule and rule stop and got consistent results.  Worked great!

(Attachment Link)

Thanks TSO!

Mike A.
Add-on products for Festool @ www.ripdogs.com
Discounts for FOG members @ www.ripdogs.com/fog-discount/

Offline SMJoinery

  • Posts: 528
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #96 on: July 18, 2016, 09:17 AM »
I'm away on holiday in Cyprus at the moment so not near my workshop but it's just occurred to me that this new rail square might be a great help in setting up the MFT3 hinged guide rail supports.
I have to remove mine regularly as we use it as an assembly table and when I put it all back together always like to check it or usually redo it to make sure it's bang on.
This might help simplify how I do that set up.

Offline Sal LiVecchi

  • Posts: 1375
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2016, 10:06 AM »
Ordered, received, used. darn this is awesome as far as I am concerned [thumbs up]
Life is too short and the road is too long to drive anything less than a Festool

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 741
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #98 on: July 18, 2016, 10:41 AM »
Klemm, I couldn't help myself after reading the feedback, so order placed. I too would be interested in a Bosch/Mafell version if you go down that road. Just home use for me.
-Raj

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 357
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #99 on: July 18, 2016, 08:40 PM »
I just did my first test cut with this tool using my TS 55. I was cutting 23/32 inch oak faced plywood. The track was hand held without any clamps.

Using a Woodpecker 16-26 square, I was about one Post-it note thickness from dead on at 24 inches. According to Google, that is about 0.003 inches. Some of that 0.003 inches could also be due to variation in the Woodpecker square. I may also become more accurate with practice.

Like everyone commenting so far, I am impressed with the ease of use and accuracy of this tool.


Offline thudchkr

  • Posts: 40
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2016, 10:31 PM »
Hans,

Gave my PG-16 it's maiden voyage, no fiddling with the setup, grabbed a rail - slide - click - cut... perfect!

(Attachment Link)


(Attachment Link)

I checked the first 3-4 cuts, didn't find one with more run-out than perhaps 10-thou over 18" (1/4 MM), which probably came from something other than the guide. This is something we can use with confidence, no need to check the setup or results.

Great addition to the arsenal.

RMW

Richard, I see that you have the Woodpeckers precision 450mm square.  Did you just receive it?  I ordered one and have been wondering when it might show up. How do you like it?

Clint
Clint

TS 55, TS 75, DF 500, DF 700, Kapex, MFK 700, CT 22, OF 1400, OF 2200, ETS 150/3, ETS EQ 150/5,

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 926
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2016, 11:03 PM »
Quote from:  link=topic=47270.msg468963#msg468963 date=1468805793
Mike,
great picture and glad it works for you as expected. Thanks for the feedback. Would you give us permission to add your picture to our web page and credit Mike A. ?
Klemm

@TSO Products
Yes, of course.  Please use it any way you like.

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 926
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2016, 11:25 PM »
@mike_aa - that setup pretty much obviates the need for parallel guides in many situations. Faster setup and equal results. I'll probably be using it a lot myself.

RMW

@Richard/RMW

I agree with you.  Although the parallel guides might have an edge for longer multiple cuts, I do really like this set-up.  After I took the photo, I used the GRS to make a 30 inch cut and it was perfectly square.

Mike A.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7452
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #103 on: July 19, 2016, 01:42 AM »
@TSO Products

Awesome service Klemm [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

So ... can I claim to have the first one in Australia? [big grin]


@Locky .. you're going to love this thing!

Offline SMJoinery

  • Posts: 528
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #104 on: July 19, 2016, 04:07 AM »
Hi Klemm

New product looks very good and looks to solve the problem of using the guide rails accurately when out on site away from the workshop and MFT.
I may have missed it but can you confirm shipping costs and ETA to Mainland Uk, Central Scotland. FK postcode?
If it's easier send me over a shipping container full of them and I'll easily sell them here for you and send back the proceeds! [big grin]
Thanks and well done on what appears to be a great product.
Scott
Scott:
Until the end of July shipping is free to international as well as US purchasers for their own use to help give this new product market exposure. We do not plan to extend free shipping to orders received after July 31. There are no plans to sell through dealers in the US or overseas in the foreseeable future.
Klemm

All ordered, paid and already received follow up email from Klemm.
Great service and can't wait to receive it and it it to the "frontline".
Scott

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2016, 06:49 AM »
Hans,

Gave my PG-16 it's maiden voyage, no fiddling with the setup, grabbed a rail - slide - click - cut... perfect!

(Attachment Link)


(Attachment Link)

I checked the first 3-4 cuts, didn't find one with more run-out than perhaps 10-thou over 18" (1/4 MM), which probably came from something other than the guide. This is something we can use with confidence, no need to check the setup or results.

Great addition to the arsenal.

RMW

Richard, I see that you have the Woodpeckers precision 450mm square.  Did you just receive it?  I ordered one and have been wondering when it might show up. How do you like it?

Clint

@thudchkr - that square is from the first round of that particular OTT, 2013-ish. Great tool, I have both the 450mm and 300mm versions and they get used quite a bit.

RMW
Add-on products for Festool @ www.ripdogs.com
Discounts for FOG members @ www.ripdogs.com/fog-discount/

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2016, 12:25 AM »
we have had several requests for spare 8-32 x.375 Imperial Screws to be included with the tool shipment.
The logistics of including after the launch of production with customers waiting for their tool seemed counterproductive. We shipped all the tools without extra screws to avoid delay.
TO begin with we are wondering why someone would want a spare part before  there is any evidence of need - and especially in light of the likelihood that no one will remember where they placed two small screws several years before the need arises - if it ever arises.

We think the best thing is for customers who need a spare part to contact us and we will provide it expeditiously if and when a need arises. For overseas customers it is possible they would also need a 9/64" Allen hex wrench - an item which we can buy for a little under $ 2.00 each plus shipping to us..

We are really gratified by the acceptance of our new tool and look forward to hearing from all of you with ideas, suggestions and concerns as we continue to  improve our offerings.
Look for the GRS-16 PE tool with Parallel Edges to be announced later in August including a special offer for buyers of the Standard GRS-16 before the PE version became available.

Hans aka "Klemm"
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Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7452
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2016, 12:45 AM »
we have had several requests for spare 8-32 x.375 Imperial Screws to be included with the tool shipment.
The logistics of including after the launch of production with customers waiting for their tool seemed counterproductive. We shipped all the tools without extra screws to avoid delay.
TO begin with we are wondering why someone would want a spare part before  there is any evidence of need - and especially in light of the likelihood that no one will remember where they placed two small screws several years before the need arises - if it ever arises.

We think the best thing is for customers who need a spare part to contact us and we will provide it expeditiously if and when a need arises. For overseas customers it is possible they would also need a 9/64" Allen hex wrench - an item which we can buy for a little under $ 2.00 each plus shipping to us..

We are really gratified by the acceptance of our new tool and look forward to hearing from all of you with ideas, suggestions and concerns as we continue to  improve our offerings.
Look for the GRS-16 PE tool with Parallel Edges to be announced later in August including a special offer for buyers of the Standard GRS-16 before the PE version became available.

Hans aka "Klemm"

That makes perfect sense to me and I have no problem with that. I also have no intent on removing the clamp for any reason! [wink] [big grin]

In markets like Oz, we still have access to imperial threads and tools in the engineering space.

Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2016, 05:25 PM »
I wish mine would hurry up and get here, it took only 3 days to make it all the way from the US to the UK, now its been 5 days in transit from London

What have the delightful UK post office done? strapped it to a tortoise? >:(

Regards

Dale


Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2016, 05:41 PM »
I wish mine would hurry up and get here, it took only 3 days to make it all the way from the US to the UK, now its been 5 days in transit from London

What have the delightful UK post office done? strapped it to a tortoise? >:(

Regards

Dale

I doubt you'll get the express tortoise service ...

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2016, 07:29 PM »
Has any one in the UK received their square and if yes, did you have to pay any customs duty tax?

Offline charley1968

  • Posts: 422
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2016, 05:33 AM »
Hi folx, hi TSO
Sorry, i might be a bit daft, but are the freight charges to europé, anyone any idea?
Just for today..

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #112 on: July 23, 2016, 05:35 AM »
Hi folx, hi TSO
Sorry, i might be a bit daft, but are the freight charges to europé, anyone any idea?

@charley1968 zero if you order RIGHT NOW

Offline charley1968

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2016, 05:48 AM »
Ta, Kev. Just gotta convince meself...done.
Just for today..

Offline awedio

  • Posts: 3
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2016, 01:48 PM »
Since I missed out on the WP version, I am so all over this.
Time to go order...can you ship so it get's delivered on Sunday...(jk)

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2016, 02:34 PM »
What was the woodpecker square like, any links?

Edit. Just done a sesrch and found it.

@TSO_Products

Is it possible to incorporate a way to cut a 45° mitre on the new parallel  square as it would be useful. Just a thought☺


« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 02:43 PM by tazprime38 »

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2016, 02:41 PM »
tazprime
try this link http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/latest-woodpecker-ott-track-square/
one major difference is that the GRS-16 Guide Rail Square your purchased does not require the use of the additional reference square described in the WP OTT Track Square product offering.
Hans
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Offline awedio

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2016, 02:42 PM »
@TSO Products Is there a way get "faster" shipping (for a fee) within the US?

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2016, 02:46 PM »
tazprime
try this link http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/latest-woodpecker-ott-track-square/
one major difference is that the GRS-16 Guide Rail Square your purchased does not require the use of the additional reference square described in the WP OTT Track Square product offering.
Hans

Thanks for that. So glad ordered the GRS-16☺. What about the 45° option on the 😉.

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2016, 02:49 PM »
The woodpecker square is not really any different in pricipal to the dewalt and now triton rail square. I have the multiangle version but it was not easy getting accurate setting on it for 90°. I suppose that was the downside to buying the multiangle one. I shall be putting that on ebay.

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2016, 03:33 PM »
better put it on eBay now before the WP OTT Track Squares also start to show up on eBay
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2016, 04:18 PM »
Very true Lol😅

Offline CO_JCD

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2016, 02:34 PM »
I wish mine would hurry up and get here, it took only 3 days to make it all the way from the US to the UK, now its been 5 days in transit from London

What have the delightful UK post office done? strapped it to a tortoise? >:(

This is normal I am afraid - the 'transit' period is for assessing the VAT (and if applicable, import duty) charges and then adding another £8 on for the service element of calculating and collecting the charges….

John

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #123 on: July 27, 2016, 03:51 PM »
we have been closely monitoring shipment tracking and getting feedback from customers around the world. Seems John's preceding post is on target with UK having the longest delivery time due to in-country clearing and local delivery times.
Peter Halle mentioned his past experience for UK arrivals was more like 3 to  weeks.

We welcome suggestions for establishing capable stocking retailers within each of our international markets to benefit those customers.
Hans
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Offline bobfog

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #124 on: July 27, 2016, 03:53 PM »
we have been closely monitoring shipment tracking and getting feedback from customers around the world. Seems John's preceding post is on target with UK having the longest delivery time due to in-country clearing and local delivery times.
Peter Halle mentioned his past experience for UK arrivals was more like 3 to  weeks.

We welcome suggestions for establishing capable stocking retailers within each of our international markets to benefit those customers.
Hans

Don't know who you're using but I've ordered stuff form the US many times and it's been a heck of a lot quicker than 3 weeks. In-country clearing time is extremely swift and local delivery times are very quick owing to how small a country we are.

If you're looking for a UK stockist, Axminster would be my first thoughts.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #125 on: July 27, 2016, 04:36 PM »
we have been closely monitoring shipment tracking and getting feedback from customers around the world. Seems John's preceding post is on target with UK having the longest delivery time due to in-country clearing and local delivery times.
Peter Halle mentioned his past experience for UK arrivals was more like 3 to  weeks.

We welcome suggestions for establishing capable stocking retailers within each of our international markets to benefit those customers.
Hans

Stockists in the UK: Thank you for the Axminster recommendation. I kow Peter Parfitt trusts them too.
Shipping:
We have used USPS Postal First Class International small parcel service. Several orders were delivered to the UK within 8 to 10 days from date of order. On the other hand we see one order sitting in London customs for 10 days for a total delivery time of 16 days and another order 10 days in customs and no delivery yet.
We're seeing Australia deliveries within 8 - 9 days.
We welcome suggestions for alternate shipping methods for improved service. Who is bobfog's favorit carrier and service?
Hans



Don't know who you're using but I've ordered stuff form the US many times and it's been a heck of a lot quicker than 3 weeks. In-country clearing time is extremely swift and local delivery times are very quick owing to how small a country we are.

If you're looking for a UK stockist, Axminster would be my first thoughts.
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Offline bkharman

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #126 on: July 27, 2016, 04:49 PM »
Ordered.

Thanks for a quality product Hans!  Where in the USA are you located?  This thing looks awesome and while I wish there was an option to do 45d cuts off of it, it still will have a good place in my arsenal.  Perhaps a simple jig can be used for it...  time will tell.

Cheers.  Bryan.
TS 55 EQ: TS 75:  OF 1400: RO 90: ETS 150/3: CT 26: Domino 700 XL: CXS: Carvex PS420 EBQ: MFT/3 + CMS-VL + Incra LS-25 + Precision Plate = my flagship workstation

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #127 on: July 27, 2016, 05:05 PM »
Bryan, good to hear form you. Your order won't take long since we are fulfilling from Minnesota which has been and continues to be our operating base for many years.
45 degrees?
we have come to the conclusion that such a capability in a single tool would lead to compromises which greatly reduce the key benefit for the most common 90 degree square application of this type of tool. Adding additional angles would either increase the physical size and cost of the product or degrade the speed of use and accuracy by bringing back the need for a separate reference square.
But we're open to fresh thinking . . .
Hans
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Offline bkharman

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #128 on: July 27, 2016, 05:21 PM »
Bryan, good to hear form you. Your order won't take long since we are fulfilling from Minnesota which has been and continues to be our operating base for many years.
45 degrees?
we have come to the conclusion that such a capability in a single tool would lead to compromises which greatly reduce the key benefit for the most common 90 degree square application of this type of tool. Adding additional angles would either increase the physical size and cost of the product or degrade the speed of use and accuracy by bringing back the need for a separate reference square.
But we're open to fresh thinking . . .
Hans

Thanks for the details Hans.  Glad to see another good product out of Minnesota and into my shop!

As far as the 45 degree comment, I was mainly looking to replicate some of the features of the HK and HKC saws outside of the US.  I think a majority of my time, the 90d cut will be fine.  I am thinking I will make a nice little 45d block that I can put between the workpiece and the GRS if i need to cut at an angle.  I will PM you offline if I come up with something a bit more "bolt on" to add to the mix. 

PS, I also like the cargo boxes you guys have on your site.  Nice stuff!

Cheers.  Bryan.
TS 55 EQ: TS 75:  OF 1400: RO 90: ETS 150/3: CT 26: Domino 700 XL: CXS: Carvex PS420 EBQ: MFT/3 + CMS-VL + Incra LS-25 + Precision Plate = my flagship workstation

Offline CO_JCD

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #129 on: July 27, 2016, 05:24 PM »
Don't know who you're using but I've ordered stuff form the US many times and it's been a heck of a lot quicker than 3 weeks. In-country clearing time is extremely swift and local delivery times are very quick owing to how small a country we are.

I agree that items can come through quickly (to the UK) however, the customs clearing process and notification of charges process does take time for USPS items delivered by Royal Mail or Parcelforce.  I still prefer USPS as the delivery is very reliable and much much cheaper than FedEx or UPS.  FedEx and UPS will sometimes deliver prior or in parallel to payment of charges, however, if you can wait a few days extra, USPS -> Royal Mail / Parcelforce is usually considerably cheaper in total.

If you track the items online, you can shortcut the charge notification process by going to collect items and pay in person there and then instead of waiting for the charge notification to be posted to you.

John
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 05:28 PM by CO_JCD »

Offline SMJoinery

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #130 on: July 27, 2016, 05:44 PM »
Just for the record.
Ordered mine on 19 July and received here in Central Scotland this morning 27 July.
Absolutely superb product, very accurate, simple to fit and use.
Cut down panels today with only one pencil mark on panel, cut to width and height and checked with large engineers square and "345" check and found to be bang on!
Highly recommended.
Also Makes a great "T" square (draughtsmen square) used to make a large template today.
Scott

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #131 on: July 28, 2016, 11:13 AM »
Just for the record.
Ordered mine on 19 July and received here in Central Scotland this morning 27 July.
Absolutely superb product, very accurate, simple to fit and use.
Cut down panels today with only one pencil mark on panel, cut to width and height and checked with large engineers square and "345" check and found to be bang on!
Highly recommended.
Also Makes a great "T" square (draughtsmen square) used to make a large template today.
Scott

Scott

Did you have to pay any customs duty tax?

Offline SMJoinery

  • Posts: 528
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #132 on: July 28, 2016, 03:48 PM »
Just for the record.
Ordered mine on 19 July and received here in Central Scotland this morning 27 July.
Absolutely superb product, very accurate, simple to fit and use.
Cut down panels today with only one pencil mark on panel, cut to width and height and checked with large engineers square and "345" check and found to be bang on!
Highly recommended.
Also Makes a great "T" square (draughtsmen square) used to make a large template today.
Scott

Scott

Did you have to pay any customs duty tax?

No, nothing to pay.

Offline dalep

  • Posts: 132
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #133 on: July 28, 2016, 05:57 PM »
I ordered mine on the 12th still no show, i phoned Parcel force and they said the Post office were handling it, i called the Post office and they say they lost it.

But as a surprise, the tracking data has been updated with 'Processed Through Facility', 2 days on the trot

I purchase computer parts week in and week out from the USA and this is the longest the Post office have hung on to anything

Its still on the back of the Tortoise !!

I hope it will arrive soon

On a site note, Hans has been fantastic :-)

Dale

Offline Inspector Digit

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #134 on: July 28, 2016, 06:58 PM »
Ordered mine on the 11th, tracking showed it arriving in the UK on the 17th and it was finally cleared on the 26th. The postman left me a card yesterday inviting me to pay the VAT/duty plus a handling charge. A trip to the Royal Mail delivery office and £28.44 later, I'm ready for some weekend fun [big grin]

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #135 on: July 29, 2016, 12:52 PM »
FREE Shipping continues till Sunday, July 31, 2016
applies to all International and USA orders  [smile]

Transit time expectations:
Europe, Australia and Canada actual experience US Postal Service 8 to 10 days with 2 instances of customs delays up to 16 days.
USA 48 States via UPS United Parcel Service actual experience 2 to 5 days.

Import charges vary from NONE to approx $ 30.00 with no apparent pattern. Australia reports ZERO duty on values below $ 1,000

Hans


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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2016, 01:06 PM »
I ordered last Saturday night.
 
Was amused to get a "your order has shipped" notice about 5 seconds later.

Tracking this morning shows "out on truck for delivery by end of day" so weekends do add to delivery time.

From ??? to NYC.

Not that I think the shipping time is excessive but I would like to know where it is coming from.
Is it TSO Products in Ft. Myers Florida? If it is, I had to go to Google to find out. This basic info should be on your web either in the About Us page or Contact Us page, don't you think?

Offline copcarcollector

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #137 on: July 29, 2016, 01:09 PM »
FREE Shipping continues till Sunday, July 31, 2016
applies to all International and USA orders  [smile]

@TSO Products

What do you anticipate the US shipping cost will be after this date?

Offline bkharman

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #138 on: July 29, 2016, 01:56 PM »
I ordered last Saturday night.
 
Was amused to get a "your order has shipped" notice about 5 seconds later.

Tracking this morning shows "out on truck for delivery by end of day" so weekends do add to delivery time.

From ??? to NYC.

Not that I think the shipping time is excessive but I would like to know where it is coming from.
Is it TSO Products in Ft. Myers Florida? If it is, I had to go to Google to find out. This basic info should be on your web either in the About Us page or Contact Us page, don't you think?

Hans told me they shipped from Minnesota.  I don't think this is excessive in the least.  The shipping is free, so I can wait.  I am just glad I don't have to wait months for it to show up with red anodization!

cheers.  Bryan.
TS 55 EQ: TS 75:  OF 1400: RO 90: ETS 150/3: CT 26: Domino 700 XL: CXS: Carvex PS420 EBQ: MFT/3 + CMS-VL + Incra LS-25 + Precision Plate = my flagship workstation

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #139 on: July 29, 2016, 02:30 PM »
I ordered last Saturday night.
 
Was amused to get a "your order has shipped" notice about 5 seconds later.

Tracking this morning shows "out on truck for delivery by end of day" so weekends do add to delivery time.

From ??? to NYC.

Not that I think the shipping time is excessive but I would like to know where it is coming from.


Is it TSO Products in Ft. Myers Florida? If it is, I had to go to Google to find out. This basic info should be on your web either in the About Us page or Contact Us page, don't you think?

Michael K: the shipping notice is automatically generated when we enter the order into the shipping system.  If we enter it into the system late on a Friday iot will not ship until Monday, etc. The tracking information reveals exactly where the shipment originates - no secrets there. Our shipping points will keep changing based on best total cost and other operational factors. We have no plans to ship production products from Florida. We aim to remain focused on our midwest base\ for supply and shipping wherever possible.
Hans
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #140 on: July 29, 2016, 02:41 PM »
FREE Shipping continues till Sunday, July 31, 2016
applies to all International and USA orders  [smile]

@TSO Products

What do you anticipate the US shipping cost will be after this date?

Shipping cost paid by customer:
UPS cost is shipping volume sensitive to a considerable degree. Until the introduction of the GRS-16 Guide Rail Square virtually everything we shipped went LTL truck freight. As a newer low-volume UPS account we have been paying  mostly in the mid- and lower teens of dollars in the US for most with far north west and east running around $ 18.00. We are working hard on improving our shipping costs. We don't treat shipping cost as a profit center. Part of the cost reduction effort involves relocating our shipping point in Minnesota. We will be required to collect Minnesota sales tax for MN in-state deliveries in addition to Florida tax on FL deliveries, of course.
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Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #141 on: July 30, 2016, 09:58 AM »
WHOOOOOO

Its arrived :-)

Very well made, works just as it should, will make things much easier.

Thanks to Hans for being so on the ball and keeping in constant contact

Will keep an eye out for the next products

Many many thanks

Dale

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #142 on: July 30, 2016, 10:23 AM »
WHOOOOOO

Its arrived :-)

Very well made, works just as it should, will make things much easier.

Thanks to Hans for being so on the ball and keeping in constant contact

Will keep an eye out for the next products

Many many thanks

Dale

Glad to see that the shipping worked out and that you are making cuts.  I am waiting for one of the rectangular models and I think Monday will be that delivery day for me.  I will experience your feelings on Monday I hope.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #143 on: July 30, 2016, 10:25 AM »
Mine arrived slightly damaged on the reference surface.

Believe it or not, Hans is there today (wherever that is) expediting a replacement.

That's exceptional service!


"today" was a Saturday!!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 12:45 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #144 on: July 30, 2016, 10:39 AM »
Mine arrived slightly damaged on the reference surface.

Believe it or not, Hans is there today (wherever that is) expediting a replacement.

That's exceptional service!

Mine actually has a wee dent in the pointy end, it seems to have escaped the cardboard box, been dropped i assume

Dale


Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #145 on: July 30, 2016, 10:48 AM »
Mine arrived slightly damaged on the reference surface.

Believe it or not, Hans is there today (wherever that is) expediting a replacement.

That's exceptional service!

Mine actually has a wee dent in the pointy end, it seems to have escaped the cardboard box, been dropped i assume

Dale

If the damage is not on the reference edge I consider it just a cosmetic blemish and accept it.
It it's decorative hardware cosmetic blemish is a reason to exchange.

Offline dalep

  • Posts: 132
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #146 on: July 30, 2016, 10:54 AM »
WHOOOOOO

Its arrived :-)

Very well made, works just as it should, will make things much easier.

Thanks to Hans for being so on the ball and keeping in constant contact

Will keep an eye out for the next products

Many many thanks

Dale

Glad to see that the shipping worked out and that you are making cuts.  I am waiting for one of the rectangular models and I think Monday will be that delivery day for me.  I will experience your feelings on Monday I hope.

Peter

Has this passed me by? i can see the rectangular one on the website

Dale

Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #147 on: July 30, 2016, 10:56 AM »

If the damage is not on the reference edge I consider it just a cosmetic blemish and accept it.
It it's decorative hardware cosmetic blemish is a reason to exchange.

Ill probably gently tap it with a hammer lol  [big grin]

Dale

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #148 on: July 30, 2016, 11:52 AM »
service difficulty reporting:
Michael K sent a picture with his report - most helpful. Anyone else experience anything less than "prefect" please include a snapshot.
We may be having a packaging issue that requires preventive action on our part. So understanding the problem in detail as well as frequency will help us understand it and nip it in the bud.

We know that ultimately there will always be some unpreventable (by us) shipping damage. We've seen product run over by a forklift among other challenges.

Hans
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Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #149 on: July 30, 2016, 12:23 PM »
Picture sent

thanks

Dale

Offline copcarcollector

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #150 on: August 01, 2016, 07:25 PM »
I placed my order online and today got the following email message:

Based on feedback from a few customers here in the States and around the world, we've decided to upgrade our shipment packaging to insure that your GRS-16 arrives in the condition we feel it should. We started this over last weekend, so we're looking to resume shipping within the next few days this week.

 I want to thank you in advance for your understanding. Our goal is your complete satisfaction when you receive one of our products.


Good to know these guys are trying to improve things and get a perfect product to the customer! Looking forward to receiving mine soon.  [smile]

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #151 on: August 01, 2016, 08:06 PM »
Just an observation .. I'm surprised shipping has been a problem in terms of damage - considering my rail square went half way round the planet ... but as they say, most transit damage occurs in the "last few yards" ... sadly!

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #152 on: August 01, 2016, 10:06 PM »
Just an observation .. I'm surprised shipping has been a problem in terms of damage - considering my rail square went half way round the planet ... but as they say, most transit damage occurs in the "last few yards" ... sadly!

in all fairness to Postal and UPS, we have just one damage issue owing to what we define as a packaging design failure. If it happened once it could happen again - so we fix it.
We are committing funds to an upgraded package. Due to lead times and tooling the upgrade will be implemented in two incremental steps. Both steps will provide serious protection. The first step will be at a premium cost to ourselves. The second phase will be based on tooling with more sustainable cost to ourselves.  We first needed to see what initial field experience showed us. No change in pricing.

We have one other damage report with possible undetected (by us) in plant damage. We'll get to the bottom of that one afte receeived the damaged tool back at our plant.
Hans
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Offline Cheese

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #153 on: August 01, 2016, 10:29 PM »
in all fairness to Postal and UPS, we have just one damage issue owing to what we define as a packaging design failure. If it happened once it could happen again - so we fix it.

Kudos to you...I received the same message today as @copcarcollector. I applaud your due diligence to real/potential or yet to be realized packaging issues. I'm impressed...that says a lot about your personal integrity.  [thumbs up]

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #154 on: August 02, 2016, 09:07 AM »
I got the same message.
its great to see a company getting on top of these things.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #155 on: August 02, 2016, 01:39 PM »
I ordered mine on 18th July and still waiting to receive it😕. The tracking info shows its stuck in transit.  Who knows may get it tomorrow ☺(hoping anyway).

Offline charley1968

  • Posts: 422
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #156 on: August 02, 2016, 03:21 PM »
Ordered July,24th-arrived in central Sweden August,1st. Well packaged; no blemish, chipping, denting whatsoever. You got one happy customer here in Sweden,Hans. Looking forward to doing business with you again.
Just for today..

Offline ewils91

  • Posts: 144
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #157 on: August 02, 2016, 03:26 PM »
Mine came in while I was away on business, no issues what-so-ever. Made my wife send me photos of it...I think I have a problem.  :o

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #158 on: August 02, 2016, 05:10 PM »
Well, the doorbell range a few minutes ago and sorry for the delay in posting this but the UPS guy was very happy to get a cold bottle of water and a COKE.'

In my box was a perfectly received second version of the square all of you are talking about.  Luckily for me I had my camera and a scale handy (I was making pickles).

So below are the images.  The squares are made out of the same size rectangle of aluminum - same thickness.  The weight difference is 92 grams - the rectangular one is heavier.   

In one of the images I stacked one on top of another and it appears that the top web is weird but that is merely due to the tilt of one on top of another another and the clamp below.





Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #159 on: August 02, 2016, 06:35 PM »
The PE square looks good, makes me think the original one is not needed😐.

Will be buying the PE also as it just seems more usefull.

Maybe having a triangular piece that has a lip which you can screw onto predrilled  holes on the square at the top would maybe sllow 45° capabilities?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #160 on: August 02, 2016, 06:42 PM »
The 45 angle on the original is just to save weight.  Only 90 degrees with the rail.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #161 on: August 02, 2016, 06:55 PM »
I was just throwing an idea that may or may not work to allow an option for cutting at 45° .

What I meant was have an additional triangular 45° piece that you can screw onto existing square enabling 45 °cuts. My suggestion was to have a lip on this triangle piece that rests on the existing square in the appropriate postion and is screwd in by means of thumb screws so its easily attached and disconnected. I think it should be possible.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #162 on: August 02, 2016, 07:01 PM »
I've just realised it will not be possible as the section of the square that is under the track would not allow you to swing the track to 45° as the workpiece would prevent this unless cutting on the end of workpiece.

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #163 on: August 02, 2016, 07:50 PM »
Regardless of what the required gadget looks like, a rail attachment that gives fuss free 45's would get my money.

I also have the large and small Festool protractors that attach to the rails. I don't like either of them and the large one is simply clumsy ... but they obviously come in handy if you need to cut some other than a right angle!

Having a slot in the material facing edge that allowed you to slide an angled piece into the rail square could be an option .. if the interface edge was centred you could flip and orient the angle piece either way ... just a thought.

Offline squawkin

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2016, 09:54 AM »
This tool is fantastic! Dead on every time. Thank you for making this great tool. [big grin]

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #165 on: August 03, 2016, 10:37 PM »
Aha, I see the cat is out of the bag!
Well, we're close to starting production shipments of the Parallel Edge  -PE version by August 19.
Working to get -PE ordering info up on the website, etc.
Packaging improvement interim Step 1 is in place and shipping Thursday Aug 4th.  The permanent packaging improvement for both version will likely go into effect around Labor Day Sep 5th week.
You fellows are keeping us busy and we appreciate it !
Hans
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Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #166 on: August 04, 2016, 12:39 AM »
We hope that those who adopted early and benefited from free shipments will be able to take advantage of the discount of purchasing the pair.  Will we have to call in our order to verify our first purchase?


I was motivated by the free shipment offer. Perhaps the same would  be a good idea when the new version is introduced.

My immediate thought is one of astonishment and kudos for the fast track development.

My second observation is that the new version is a quite elegant design. The Z is a nice touch.
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline icecactus

  • Posts: 57
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #167 on: August 04, 2016, 04:18 PM »
I received mine the other day. Is there a way to adjust the clamp? When I unclamp mine, its leaving marks and slightly deforming my rail...
TS 55 REQ, MFT/3, CT 48 w/Boom Arm, OF1400, LR32, 55" Holey Rail, 118" Rail, Domino 500, RO150, ETS150/3, RO90, DTS400

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #168 on: August 04, 2016, 05:09 PM »
I received mine the other day. Is there a way to adjust the clamp? When I unclamp mine, its leaving marks and slightly deforming my rail...

thank you for sharing your concerns. Some marking or creating impressions of guide rails by associated tools is normal. FESTOOL's Connector Screws leave marks which is normal. Our tool will also leave its imprint. The question, of course, is "how much"
The best way to answer this: bring your particular tool back to us, at our expense, and examine its function. Email us now so we can identify you in our order database, please. most FOG names don't enable us to identify who needs help  [unsure]
It expedites things if a customer will simply email us directly rather than wait until we have chance to check forums.
Hans
We look forward to your email  info@tsoproducts.com
Hans

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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #169 on: August 04, 2016, 05:14 PM »
We hope that those who adopted early and benefited from free shipments will be able to take advantage of the discount of purchasing the pair.  Will we have to call in our order to verify our first purchase?


I was motivated by the free shipment offer. Perhaps the same would  be a good idea when the new version is introduced.

My immediate thought is one of astonishment and kudos for the fast track development.

My second observation is that the new version is a quite elegant design. The Z is a nice touch.

we will have a special discount coupon enabled on our website for early purchase customers so it will be easy to order the -PE version online.
And thank you for the copliments. Yes, we're passionate about what we do and glad it shows  [smile]
Hans
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Offline Svar

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #170 on: August 04, 2016, 05:15 PM »
I received mine the other day. Is there a way to adjust the clamp? When I unclamp mine, its leaving marks and slightly deforming my rail...

thank you for sharing your concerns. Some marking or creating impressions of guide rails by associated tools is normal. FESTOOL's Connector Screws leave marks which is normal. Our tool will also leave its imprint. The question, of course, is "how much"
The best way to answer this: bring your particular tool back to us, at our expense, and examine its function. Email us now so we can identify you in our order database, please. most FOG names don't enable us to identify who needs help  [unsure]
It expedites things if a customer will simply email us directly rather than wait until we have chance to check forums.
Hans
We look forward to your email  info@tsoproducts.com
Hans

A plastic bumper or coating (just like one on the handle) could be added to the clamp hook. Just a thought.
I think clamping pressure could be reduced if you bend/compress that pin like spring.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #171 on: August 04, 2016, 05:22 PM »
Well, the doorbell range a few minutes ago and sorry for the delay in posting this but the UPS guy was very happy to get a cold bottle of water and a COKE.'

In my box was a perfectly received second version of the square all of you are talking about.  Luckily for me I had my camera and a scale handy (I was making pickles).

So below are the images.  The squares are made out of the same size rectangle of aluminum - same thickness.  The weight difference is 92 grams - the rectangular one is heavier.   

In one of the images I stacked one on top of another and it appears that the top web is weird but that is merely due to the tilt of one on top of another another and the clamp below.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Peter

from Peter's post it may not be obvious why you might want one, the other or both. Please let me try to explain:Reasons for choosing the PE version:
•   permits referencing the opposite end AND front edge of the sheet being cut
•   Retains all the benefits of the original GRS-16 Square

Reasons for choosing the original GRS-16 version:
•   Ideal for conventional front edge referencing of cuts
•   Smaller form factor for easier mobility, convenience in shop or job site
•   Lowest weight on the tool belt
•   Stores in FESTOOL Systainer 1 TL

Reasons for choosing both GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE
•   Permits squaring both ends of longer rails for greatest accuracy
•   Combination for greatest accuracy on any length workpiece or track
•   Keep one in the truck and one in the shop


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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #172 on: August 05, 2016, 10:28 AM »
Finally got my square today. I had to psy £30.76 customs duty including  an £8 Royal Mail handling charge. This is more than other UK buyers have mentioned here.

To UK buyers, what dod you get charged for customs duty as I cannot understand why the difference.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #173 on: August 07, 2016, 01:15 PM »
@crampedshop - sorry it took so long to reply, I was just re-reading this thread and saw your question. Those are the guide clips from my RipDogs setup.

RMW


Richard/RMW in your recent pic, what is the black piece at about the midpoint of your rail?
Add-on products for Festool @ www.ripdogs.com
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Offline Cheese

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #174 on: August 08, 2016, 04:16 PM »
I received my square today and am very pleased with it.  [thumbs up]  The foamed in-place packaging is a real nice touch.

A couple of quick questions:
1. What is the purpose of the tapped hole near the apex of the triangle?
2. The key on the square that engages the slot of the rail is not the full width of the square but is about 1" shorter than the width. Why is that?
3. At the end of the key (RH side) there is a relieved portion, what is that radiused relief for?


Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #175 on: August 08, 2016, 04:27 PM »
I received my square today and am very pleased with it.  [thumbs up]  The foamed in-place packaging is a real nice touch.

A couple of quick questions:
1. What is the purpose of the tapped hole near the apex of the triangle?
2. The key on the square that engages the slot of the rail is not the full width of the square but is about 1" shorter than the width. Why is that?
3. At the end of the key (RH side) there is a relieved portion, what is that radiused relief for?

1. Add a fender washer (which would rest on top of the work) to keep the rig from tipping to the left.

2&3 seem to be the same question?  The notch leaves space for a clamp.

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #176 on: August 08, 2016, 04:36 PM »
@TSO_Products,
With regards to Cheeses questions, my square does not have the tapped hole for a washer (which is not an issue as it is easily done),  will the PE square ship with tapped holes top and bottom for washers so to stop track and square flipping at either end?

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #177 on: August 08, 2016, 04:39 PM »
The tapped hole is a new addition. Easy to add your own to aluminum.

Offline Cheese

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #178 on: August 08, 2016, 06:03 PM »
Thanks for the input @Michael Kellough, all that makes sense.  [smile]

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #179 on: August 08, 2016, 07:35 PM »
I received my square today and am very pleased with it.  [thumbs up]  The foamed in-place packaging is a real nice touch.

A couple of quick questions:
1. What is the purpose of the tapped hole near the apex of the triangle?
2. The key on the square that engages the slot of the rail is not the full width of the square but is about 1" shorter than the width. Why is that?
3. At the end of the key (RH side) there is a relieved portion, what is that radiused relief for?

Adding to what Michael Kellough said, I'm attaching a picture of our AUxiliary Support set up. THis idea seems to be going nowehere based on feedback, or lack thereof, on a separate thread I started.Th etopic focused on using short(ened) guide rails. With a rail a good bit shorter than 42" / 1080mm the overhaung weight of the GRS-16 can tilt the guide rail when ther is no saw resting on it yet. WE await further feedback from the field on this feature or any need.

Another comment regarding the "T" feature which loosely engages the T-slot in the bottom of the rail. FIst this feature is intended NOT to make a close tolerance engagement so as to let he Square's 90 degree edge and the side of the rail be the driving dimensions. The T-slot clearance is intended to be a driven dimension only. In fact we are considering shortening this feature to something more like a button or knob. Two reasons: 1. the only function for this feature is to keep the Square tool from falling down and tilting thus allowing the Latch to be twisted off the guide rail edge.
2. The the shorter this feature, the easier it is to engage and disengage the tool on the rail. We will try this experimentally and see if its advantageous or not.

A final comment here: the easiest way to install the Square is to look at the 90 degree edge of the tool (the one that runs under the Latch) and place it next to the rail, then slide it forward. That takes care of the T-slot alignment - as opposed to focusing on the T-slot and trying to get everything lined up.
Help yourself with some hard furniture wax or similar low friction material and wipe the T-slot inside as well as the T-feature on the square so they glide more easily. - enjoy
Hans
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #180 on: August 08, 2016, 07:45 PM »
Auxiliary Support for Guide Rail Square on very short track:  picture (TSO experimental)
Hans
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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #181 on: August 12, 2016, 01:40 PM »
This square works extremely well.

Works with the Gecko if you need to lock the free end.

Tom
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 06:39 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline dutchie

  • Posts: 130
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #182 on: August 13, 2016, 01:57 PM »
So I received my square yesterday, sadly haven't had time to test it yet. But got here in The Netherlands in a little over a week in great shape. Too bad I had to pay € 41,- for customs and import fees, but sadly that is to be expected over here in The Netherlands.

Hope to be able to test it real soon!

But I was thinking, has anyone tried it yet with their Seneca (or other) parallel guide(s)? I think you would only need to use one and let the TSO square make everything square?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #183 on: August 13, 2016, 03:02 PM »
Milan, thanks for the arrival report - ouch, that customs duty [crying]

Using only one parallel guide will work as long a you start with two perfectly square workpiece edges.
Hans
TSOproducts.com
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares - and the MTR-18 Triangle

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #184 on: August 13, 2016, 03:50 PM »
Milan, thanks for the arrival report - ouch, that customs duty [crying]

Using only one parallel guide will work as long a you start with two perfectly square workpiece edges.
Hans

The festool parallel guides will not work with the square as the bottom one sits near the bittom reference edge of workpiece. Yes you could use one at the top end as long as two edges are already square as Hans mentioned.

Offline dutchie

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #185 on: August 13, 2016, 04:00 PM »
Milan, thanks for the arrival report - ouch, that customs duty [crying]

Using only one parallel guide will work as long a you start with two perfectly square workpiece edges.
Hans

The festool parallel guides will not work with the square as the bottom one sits near the bittom reference edge of workpiece. Yes you could use one at the top end as long as two edges are already square as Hans mentioned.
Ah yes, but I meant an aftermarket parallel guide system like Seneca, Precision Dogs, etc. That should work I think?

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #186 on: August 13, 2016, 04:39 PM »
Milan, thanks for the arrival report - ouch, that customs duty [crying]

Using only one parallel guide will work as long a you start with two perfectly square workpiece edges.
Hans

The festool parallel guides will not work with the square as the bottom one sits near the bittom reference edge of workpiece. Yes you could use one at the top end as long as two edges are already square as Hans mentioned.
Ah yes, but I meant an aftermarket parallel guide system like Seneca, Precision Dogs, etc. That should work I think?

Yes those 3rd party ones that sit on the work peice should work nicely. I may have to think about selling my festool parallel guides and get ine of those😕

Offline dutchie

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #187 on: August 14, 2016, 02:22 PM »
So I made a little test cut today with my Precision Dogs parallel guide and the TSO GRS-16. Set it to 38 cm (could have been any number), had a go and got pretty much perfect results.


Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #188 on: August 15, 2016, 09:51 AM »
I see the new PE square is listed now on the TSO site price initially at $169.99.

What is the price for people who have already bought the original Square?

I have to decide if I really do want the PE version due to cost. I would have bought the PE version if they were bith available initially saving a lot of money.😕

Hopefully the discount offered to version one buyers will be generous😜

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2016, 04:58 PM »
just got mine today. it was in the post office yesterday

it cost me 38 euro customs


only had a quick look. but it looks great
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #190 on: August 19, 2016, 02:58 PM »
Discount on the new rail guide for prior purchase of the GRS-16 is @20.00. E-mail Eric and they send you a coupon code.
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #191 on: August 19, 2016, 07:21 PM »
Discount on the new rail guide for prior purchase of the GRS-16 is @20.00. E-mail Eric and they send you a coupon code.

I have emailed Hans but not heard back. Who is Eric?

Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #192 on: August 20, 2016, 12:36 AM »
Discount on the new rail guide for prior purchase of the GRS-16 is @20.00. E-mail Eric and they send you a coupon code.

I have emailed Hans but not heard back. Who is Eric?

Eric Friedebach ( Writes the Blog) They should get back to you soon.

My coupon worked for the $20.00 discount and the shipping was only $8.90 to Montana ( Pony Express)

Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #193 on: August 20, 2016, 05:00 PM »
Discount on the new rail guide for prior purchase of the GRS-16 is @20.00. E-mail Eric and they send you a coupon code.

I have emailed Hans but not heard back. Who is Eric?

Eric Friedebach ( Writes the Blog) They should get back to you soon.

My coupon worked for the $20.00 discount and the shipping was only $8.90 to Montana ( Pony Express)

I got a reply back with the $20 coupon. They are not offering the free postage which makes the total for me after taxes of £221.00 , this is way too expensive considering I have the grs 16 version one.

The PE version is just so much more useful. Wish I had waited and got the PE version only. I think that having two to use at both ends of workpiece is just a marketing gimmick more than anything. I may end up selling the first one if I go for the PE version.

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 208
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #194 on: August 20, 2016, 05:29 PM »
Discount on the new rail guide for prior purchase of the GRS-16 is @20.00. E-mail Eric and they send you a coupon code.

I have emailed Hans but not heard back. Who is Eric?

Yet another note. The discount is only good until September 20, 2016 according the latest note from Eric.  It is not clear whether the current pricing is introductory with a 9/20 expiration then bringing the PE to almost $200.00. That would price me out and in my opinion many others. The free shipping was welcome, however, for the GRS-16. I don't mind paying under $10.00 but jeepers if you are out of the county, it is expensive. My sympathies.





Eric Friedebach ( Writes the Blog) They should get back to you soon.

My coupon worked for the $20.00 discount and the shipping was only $8.90 to Montana ( Pony Express)

I got a reply back with the $20 coupon. They are not offering the free postage which makes the total for me after taxes of £221.00 , this is way too expensive considering I have the grs 16 version one.

The PE version is just so much more useful. Wish I had waited and got the PE version only. I think that having two to use at both ends of workpiece is just a marketing gimmick more than anything. I may end up selling the first one if I go for the PE version.
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #195 on: August 20, 2016, 06:11 PM »
Discount on the new rail guide for prior purchase of the GRS-16 is @20.00. E-mail Eric and they send you a coupon code.

I have emailed Hans but not heard back. Who is Eric?

Yet another note. The discount is only good until September 20, 2016 according the latest note from Eric.  It is not clear whether the current pricing is introductory with a 9/20 expiration then bringing the PE to almost $200.00. That would price me out and in my opinion many others. The free shipping was welcome, however, for the GRS-16. I don't mind paying under $10.00 but jeepers if you are out of the county, it is expensive. My sympathies.





Eric Friedebach ( Writes the Blog) They should get back to you soon.

My coupon worked for the $20.00 discount and the shipping was only $8.90 to Montana ( Pony Express)

I got a reply back with the $20 coupon. They are not offering the free postage which makes the total for me after taxes of £221.00 , this is way too expensive considering I have the grs 16 version one.

The PE version is just so much more useful. Wish I had waited and got the PE version only. I think that having two to use at both ends of workpiece is just a marketing gimmick more than anything. I may end up selling the first one if I go for the PE version.

You know, I believe if TSO realised at the design stage that a Parallel square had more functionality, they would have prpbably not made the version one and we would have had only the PE version to start with.

It has probably worked out well for them now by marketting the gimmick of using two squares for long cuts lol. Fir two squares to work as I have stated in an earlier post, both the bottom and top edges of workpiece would need to be parallel in the first place.

For both squares it will cost me around £370 pounds.  The square us brilliant and genius  as it really solves a problem perfectly saving a lot of faffing around and time. As the prices will go up I will have a good chance to sell version one locally for a good price, probably my best option as I can't justify both but want the PE version.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #196 on: August 20, 2016, 06:27 PM »
@tazprime38

The development of the second square came about thru comments received by testers - myself included.  If you go up in this thread you will see that I mentioned that possibly having 2 squares would help especially on long rails.

The original square is handier out in the field for me based on the shape. 

My guess is that you could indeed find a buyer for your original version and recoup most if not all of your costs.

Peter

Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #197 on: August 20, 2016, 07:27 PM »
Don't forget, the square square won't fit in a Sys 1.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #198 on: August 20, 2016, 09:43 PM »
Peter, yes I am hoping I will recoup all of cost of version one. I will put up for sale once the introductory lower price ends.

Michael, I don't need to put it in a sys 1.  That does not bother me. I have the festool track and fittings case ( the big one ) or  I'll just find myself a small zip up case. I have the tool boxes from Rutlands that are a copy of systainers (not as good), but are slightly bigger in dimensions than systainers. It will easily fit in one of the equivalent of sys 1 or 2.

Offline bryan1982

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #199 on: August 21, 2016, 01:15 AM »
I think ill be cutting the end off the squares so it will fit in a sys one

Cheers

Bryan

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #200 on: August 21, 2016, 06:17 AM »
mine fits in the sys 4 with the ts55.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #201 on: August 21, 2016, 09:08 AM »
mine fits in the sys 4 with the ts55.

That is probably the best solution.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #202 on: August 21, 2016, 09:46 AM »
I'd rather add the square to the saw's Systainer too but fitting the square into a Sys 1 seems to be the reason for the triangular end.

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #203 on: August 21, 2016, 09:10 PM »
back at my desk I read the recent string of comments regarding the -PE version of the GRS-16.
Peter Halle is correct that the -PE came about as a result of FOG members comments. It was not part of a grand marketing scheme - we're just not that smart.
We still don't know how important storage and general handiness of the each of these tools is to the user (forms factor question). Time will tell and we will listen.
Pricing is always a factor. In this  case we opted to do whatever it takes to develop, produce and bring to market the very best tool for the market which saves a considerable amount of time for the user over the life of the tool. Seen in that light, a price difference of s a hundred dollars becomes pretty insignificant compared to the "Return-on-Investment" when using the tool.
In the final analysis, FESTOOL Owners Group members have a pretty good ability to recognize performance and value in the tools they choose to invest in.

As a matter of business philosophy we will not offer our tools on a pre-buy basis just to lower our cost and business risk.
We thank all of you for your comments - we learn something from every one of them!

Hans

Hans
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #204 on: August 21, 2016, 09:27 PM »
packaging protection : - our promised update:
our packaging worked well for almost everyone - but almost is not good enough. We have launched packaging improvements using a two-component urethane foam system produced by SealedAir Corporation. It is expensive material and labor intensive to use on a low volume basis. But a number of you most recent purchasers have already seen how effective it is at protecting the tool in transit. As we gained experience with the relatively shallow carton dimension we have found a method of improving the box fill and making it easier for the user to get the tool out of the foam pack.
A further packaging refinement is in the works with tooling under way now. The aim is to make the packaging re-usable for the customer. Changeover will be seen late September/ early October.
Hans
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #205 on: August 21, 2016, 10:00 PM »
Blemish / cosmetics reports - promised update:
digging into this issue with the help of a returned product we identified two areas which called for improvement.

One involved prevention and detection of in-process handling damage at the machining stage. That was quick to address with a process change and an additional inspection step.

The other involved the anodizing process - or more specifically how each part is "racked" - that is attached to the metal frame work which holds and lowers the part into the tanks while maintaining a path for current to flow. We will machine two holes into the tool for the sole purpose of preventing the "racking" process from leaving two telltale tiny silver marks in the anodized finish of  functional precision edges and surfaces. This will be a running change implemented after the production process has been tested.

A third topic relating to cosmetics involves the contact marks left by the Latch on the edge of the Guide Rail extrusion. We carefully re-checked  to see if the appearance of marks left by the Latch had any detrimental effect on the close tolerances of the guide rail edges.  Any hard clamping in a vise or with connector set-screws will leave some marks on finely finished materials. The use of "soft-jaws" on the Latch is not practical. Fortunately we don't leave pronounced and unsightly impressions like the connector screws do. Since the the function of guide rails is in no way impaired we consider the investigation closed with no further action required except to alert future users to expect to see visible evidence of the Latch clamping with no effect on function or durability of the guide rails.

Your feedback is always helpful.
thank you
Hans
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #206 on: August 22, 2016, 08:56 AM »
Hans, thanks for detailing your efforts to continue improving the product.
It's not only admirable, I find it very interesting.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2016, 06:30 PM »
This shows that the grs16  square fits nicely in to the ts55 systainer.

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #208 on: August 24, 2016, 07:39 PM »
This shows that the grs16  square fits nicely in to the ts55 systainer.

Tariq,
thank you - may we have your permission to add your picture to our website?
Others will appreciate seeing it, I'm sure.

Hans
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #209 on: August 25, 2016, 06:12 AM »
This shows that the grs16  square fits nicely in to the ts55 systainer.

Tariq,
thank you - may we have your permission to add your picture to our website?
Others will appreciate seeing it, I'm sure.

Hans

Hans, yes you have my permission.👍

Offline ewils91

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2016, 07:33 AM »
Dang, my GRS16 hasn't been off my tracks since I got it but it is nice to know that when I do take it off it'll fit. Thanks for sharing.

Oh and by the way Hans, my workers came to me a few weeks ago and asked me where this thing was a few months ago when they were building vanity cabinets everyday for the entire summer. You're are their hero.

Eddy

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2016, 09:58 AM »
Spoke with Hans on the phone earlier and I am so stoked! About what I can't say.

 [ban]
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2016, 10:25 AM »
Spoke with Hans on the phone earlier and I am so stoked! About what I can't say.

 [ban]

Are we allowed to guess? The logical progression is a clip-on angle guide to set the rail at any angle with at least the 45 degree angle a permanent stop. Festool missed the boat when the new short cross-cut rail was only made for the new cross-cut saw.

An angle feature might make an average carpenter give up the speed square for a track saw and rail.

The TSO development time from idea to market is astonishing My new parallel guide arrives  today. I am breaking down  into shorter lengths some 2x8 planks, now much easier with my TSO guides.
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

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but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2016, 11:12 AM »
Those guys at TSO are smart, serious, and dedicated.  [thumbs up]

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2016, 11:23 AM »
the reason we applied for a patent for the Latching approach on our GRS products is that right from the start we saw multiple other applications.
You all can appreciate the commercial reasons for keeping new product development plans under our hat to a certain degree. Still, we need to talk to and listen to each other - that's where progress comes from.
We are sincerely appreciative of all the feedback!
Hans
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #215 on: August 25, 2016, 11:57 AM »
Some more shots I took but did not post earlier.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #216 on: August 25, 2016, 12:09 PM »
I can't  seem to be able to post more than 1 pic at a time , thats why i didn't  post the other 3 I took earlier.

Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #217 on: August 25, 2016, 12:17 PM »
I am so intrigued at what the next 'thing' will be.

Can someone post the dimensions in metric☺ of the GRS-16 PE square please?

Offline DrD

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #218 on: August 25, 2016, 12:24 PM »
I am just wondering if there is benefit in using the original GRS-16 on one end of a long rail and - assuming you already have the Festool Parallel Guides - using one of the Festool Parallel Guides on the other.  One could use the single Parallel Guide to select cut piece dimension, and the GRS-16 to ensure squareness?  This might be handy to repeated cuts of the same depth.  Is this too goofy?

DrD
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #219 on: August 25, 2016, 12:36 PM »
I am just wondering if there is benefit in using the original GRS-16 on one end of a long rail and - assuming you already have the Festool Parallel Guides - using one of the Festool Parallel Guides on the other.  One could use the single Parallel Guide to select cut piece dimension, and the GRS-16 to ensure squareness?  This might be handy to repeated cuts of the same depth.  Is this too goofy?

DrD

your suggestion was discussed and one of the members posted a picture of this set up some time ago. No reason why it should not work
Hans
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Offline jussi

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #220 on: August 25, 2016, 03:04 PM »
Is there video of the parallel guide in use?

Offline Tinker

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #221 on: August 25, 2016, 03:55 PM »
It looks like you guys at TSO are not only on the ball with some great ideas, but you continue to communicate.  You should be around for a long time.   [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #222 on: August 25, 2016, 04:00 PM »
I only got to play with this yesterday and today.

it is great. I wish I had it years ago. I cut up 10 sheets into 12" strips and every cut was perfect.


the only additions I would add it to include the washer and nut
I would mark a scale along the edge for rouger cuts. the job I was doing didn't require 100% accuracy . a few mm less was ok . the scale would allow you to just drop and cut .
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #223 on: August 25, 2016, 06:07 PM »
Is there video of the parallel guide in use?
Not sure whose Parallel Guide you are seeking info on. commercial, home made? can you be more specific? brand?
Hans
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #224 on: August 25, 2016, 06:16 PM »
I only got to play with this yesterday and today.

it is great. I wish I had it years ago. I cut up 10 sheets into 12" strips and every cut was perfect.


the only additions I would add it to include the washer and nut
I would mark a scale along the edge for rougher cuts. the job I was doing didn't require 100% accuracy . a few mm less was ok . the scale would allow you to just drop and cut .

Alan,
if you need a 10-32 Screw and can't obtain one, let us know and we'll send you one no charge. We will consider including and a washer if and when it appears that there is sufficient demand to warrant the added cost. We thought there might be a demand but your comment is the first one we can recall to suggest making it a part our standard product. We'll keep an ear out for more requests and maintain an open mind.

The scale idea: could you send a sketch or marked up picture that would help us understand how that would work?
Hans
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Offline DrD

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #225 on: August 25, 2016, 10:46 PM »
Hans, in my case it would be the Festool Parallel Guide.  A video would be nice.

Thanks,

DrD
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #226 on: August 26, 2016, 08:48 AM »
DrD,  Have you searched on YouTube? - I see seven YouTube listings under FESTOOL  parallel Guide. This topic probably should be dealt with on another thread to be more helpful to you.
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Offline DrD

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #227 on: August 26, 2016, 09:46 AM »
Good Morning Hans,

Appreciate your reference to You Tube; using search engines available to me, I find well over 10 pages of You Tube videos regarding the use of Festool Parallel Guides.  However, none of them address the combined use of your product with the Festool product.  My inquiry was just for assisting me in justifying the expense of your tool, that's all.  To date I've been quite happy with my Qwas Square and a single Parallel Guide attached to the opposite end of the rail.  I do verify square with a variety of tools at my disposal:  Qwas Dogs, Anderson Square, various Woodpecker precision squares.  Thus, I guess I'm well equipped with what I already have.

I do wish you good success in this and all aspects of your business.

DrD
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Offline jussi

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #228 on: August 26, 2016, 09:47 AM »
Your guide.  The Parallel Edge guide.  If not, maybe a description.  There was alot of info on the Rail Square on your site but none for the parallel edge guide.

https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/grs-16-pe-parallel-edge-guide-rail-square/

Is there video of the parallel guide in use?
Not sure whose Parallel Guide you are seeking info on. commercial, home made? can you be more specific? brand?
Hans

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #229 on: August 26, 2016, 10:38 AM »
Good Morning Hans,

Appreciate your reference to You Tube; using search engines available to me, I find well over 10 pages of You Tube videos regarding the use of Festool Parallel Guides.  However, none of them address the combined use of your product with the Festool product.  My inquiry was just for assisting me in justifying the expense of your tool, that's all.  To date I've been quite happy with my Qwas Square and a single Parallel Guide attached to the opposite end of the rail.  I do verify square with a variety of tools at my disposal:  Qwas Dogs, Anderson Square, various Woodpecker precision squares.  Thus, I guess I'm well equipped with what I already have.

I do wish you good success in this and all aspects of your business.

DrD

If you can leave the QWAS Square attached to a guide rail you're all set, no reason to buy another rail square.

While the GRS-16 is an excellent product the primary functional difference between the two squares is that the TSO product can be quickly installed/removed and it is instantly square. No other reference tools required.

That is a HUGE benefit for many people but if you don't need to remove your QWAS Square....

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #230 on: August 26, 2016, 11:26 AM »
Good Morning Hans,

Appreciate your reference to You Tube; using search engines available to me, I find well over 10 pages of You Tube videos regarding the use of Festool Parallel Guides.  However, none of them address the combined use of your product with the Festool product.  My inquiry was just for assisting me in justifying the expense of your tool, that's all.  To date I've been quite happy with my Qwas Square and a single Parallel Guide attached to the opposite end of the rail.  I do verify square with a variety of tools at my disposal:  Qwas Dogs, Anderson Square, various Woodpecker precision squares.  Thus, I guess I'm well equipped with what I already have.

I do wish you good success in this and all aspects of your business.

DrD

DrD - pardon me - I mistook your inquiry to refer to the "Parallel Guide" made by Festool and others. You can find videos describing our Guide Rail Square Parallel Edge GRS-16 PE on our website: https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/grs-16-pe-parallel-edge-guide-rail-square/
These abbreviated videos just went up on our site yesterday.
I might mention that my personal dissatisfaction with our own QWAS Square led me to develop the GRS-16 series of tools. An easy way to decide if it does something for you is to buy, try it and return it if it's not enough of an improvement for you.  [unsure]
Hans

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Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #231 on: August 26, 2016, 03:40 PM »
I only got to play with this yesterday and today.

it is great. I wish I had it years ago. I cut up 10 sheets into 12" strips and every cut was perfect.


the only additions I would add it to include the washer and nut
I would mark a scale along the edge for rougher cuts. the job I was doing didn't require 100% accuracy . a few mm less was ok . the scale would allow you to just drop and cut .

Alan,
if you need a 10-32 Screw and can't obtain one, let us know and we'll send you one no charge. We will consider including and a washer if and when it appears that there is sufficient demand to warrant the added cost. We thought there might be a demand but your comment is the first one we can recall to suggest making it a part our standard product. We'll keep an ear out for more requests and maintain an open mind.

The scale idea: could you send a sketch or marked up picture that would help us understand how that would work?
Hans

I thought the bolt could be included so that I could use the washer if needed. I hate having to go looking for these things. these little jobs never get done. I have been meaning to do the same thing to my parallel guides for years and still haven't done it

there isn't relly a need to have the washer , when I used it, it didn't tip once
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #232 on: August 26, 2016, 03:48 PM »
I wanted a scale on the edge that goes against the work piece.
if you are cutting off the edge you can use the edge to set the distance

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #233 on: August 26, 2016, 04:19 PM »
Alan
if I understand you correctly you would have a scale showing approxiamtely 200+ millimeters to the left of the guide rail. Any reading from this scale would have to relate to one or the other edge of the guide rail. The left side would pose quite a parallax problem while the cut side as a reference would introduce the variable of the splinterguard "0" location. After all that, the scale would be useful only for dimensions ranging between 160mm and 400 mm.
I'm probably still not understanding you correctly. Perhaps a practical example illustrating your point would let me figure it out.
Hans
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Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #234 on: August 26, 2016, 04:39 PM »
I think you have the idea.
im not sure where you see parallax.
it would only be good for rougher cuts where the exact dimension wouldn't need to be 100%

you could also make the scale movable so you could dial in the accuracy
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline builderbob

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #235 on: August 26, 2016, 07:05 PM »
I think you have the idea.
im not sure where you see parallax.
it would only be good for rougher cuts where the exact dimension wouldn't need to be 100%

you could also make the scale movable so you could dial in the accuracy

I think some Right - Left adhesive measuring tape from Kreg or Starrett would work great. Or painters tape and a pencil or sharpie. Since these are rougher cut markings anyway, something like this would work!
Kapex, TS55, CMS GE, Carvex 420, Domino DF500, MFK 700, OF 2200, OF 1400, OF 1010, EHL65, RAS 115, RTS 400, RO150, ETS 150/3, ETS 125, CT 22 (2), CXS (2), C-15+3, T-12+3, PSB 300 & more MFT's than i can count!

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #236 on: August 26, 2016, 07:16 PM »
come on now bob. surely your not suggesting using cheap tape instead of investing hundreds in a new tool.

I was thinking about sticking a scale on the rail. it would really help for rougher cuts
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #237 on: August 26, 2016, 08:12 PM »
Alan, we'll keep an ear out for other customer voices calling for this feature along with their expressed willingness to pay the additional cost it will entail. If we can see a business case for any technically feasible accessory we are prepared to pursue it - that is our business after all.

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Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 280
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #238 on: August 26, 2016, 10:51 PM »
Got my GS-16 PE today. That thing was packed well enough that it my survive being run over by a half track! Great job Hans!!!!

jack

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #239 on: August 27, 2016, 12:54 AM »
Jack,
glad your GRS-16 PE arrived in good shape as expected. We would like some feedback as to how these tools ar stored when not in active use. We worked hard to be able to fit the original GRS-16 flat into into a SYSTAINER 1. We had hoped to be able to create a fitted HD EPS filler block for SYS 1 but found there is not enough room left around the perimeter for that to protect the tools in shipment. That's why we went to SEALED AIR urethane foam as an intermediary step. Safe transit but not very practical for storage in the shop or truck. SO we are working on tooling for a more re-usable box filler. But we also heard earlier calls for a "holster" and a "Pouch" and even a hook or something to hang the tool from the workbench or MFT-3.

We would appreciate some discussion from our customers who have received their tool and are starting to use them. What's missing to make it convenient to have around the workplace when it's not latched onto a guide rail?
Hans
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Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #240 on: August 27, 2016, 03:54 AM »
I wanted a scale on the edge that goes against the work piece.
if you are cutting off the edge you can use the edge to set the distance

You can get tape with measurements to stick on .. can't remember who offers it - but there's a few.

Offline Cheese

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #241 on: August 27, 2016, 03:10 PM »
You can get tape with measurements to stick on .. can't remember who offers it - but there's a few.

Starrett   [cool]

Offline DrD

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #242 on: August 27, 2016, 03:27 PM »
Also check with FastCap and Lee Valley; I've gotten adhesive baked tapes for both.

DrD
Dr.D

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Offline Claimdude

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #243 on: August 28, 2016, 12:13 AM »
Hans,

My equipment never leaves the shop, in fact, I have sold nearly all the systainers my inventory of Festools came in. I built a Jack-Bench modified to be an extra large MFT that is mobile on wheels and height adjustable. I put a 1/4" insert rail around the perimeter so it would be nice if a plastic coated hook would slide into the 1/4" track so it could be re-positioned around the table. I am attaching a photo of my bench for reference.

Thanks
Jack


Jack,
glad your GRS-16 PE arrived in good shape as expected. We would like some feedback as to how these tools ar stored when not in active use. We worked hard to be able to fit the original GRS-16 flat into into a SYSTAINER 1. We had hoped to be able to create a fitted HD EPS filler block for SYS 1 but found there is not enough room left around the perimeter for that to protect the tools in shipment. That's why we went to SEALED AIR urethane foam as an intermediary step. Safe transit but not very practical for storage in the shop or truck. SO we are working on tooling for a more re-usable box filler. But we also heard earlier calls for a "holster" and a "Pouch" and even a hook or something to hang the tool from the workbench or MFT-3.

We would appreciate some discussion from our customers who have received their tool and are starting to use them. What's missing to make it convenient to have around the workplace when it's not latched onto a guide rail?
Hans

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #244 on: August 29, 2016, 09:38 AM »
Jack,
thanks for the specific response.
I made a note of the vinyl coated "hook" suggestion. The design challenge I see is that you would want to be able to hang the GRS on to the hook with just one hand - not having to steady the hook with the other hand. The limitation with making the hook a one piece semi-rigid design is that it would be limited to the specific track or extrusion. - Hmmm ???[unsure]
I'm open to suggestions from everyone on this. Perhaps someone can show a coat-hanger mock-up as a starting point for us. The attachment method to the workbench is the issue where we need input.

 Your workbench would make an interesting separate new thread  - especially the height adjusting mechanism inside!

Hans
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Offline builderbob

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #245 on: August 29, 2016, 01:56 PM »
come on now bob. surely your not suggesting using cheap tape instead of investing hundreds in a new tool.

I was thinking about sticking a scale on the rail. it would really help for rougher cuts

It was worth a shot! ;)
Kapex, TS55, CMS GE, Carvex 420, Domino DF500, MFK 700, OF 2200, OF 1400, OF 1010, EHL65, RAS 115, RTS 400, RO150, ETS 150/3, ETS 125, CT 22 (2), CXS (2), C-15+3, T-12+3, PSB 300 & more MFT's than i can count!

Offline Claimdude

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #246 on: August 29, 2016, 09:08 PM »
Thanks Hans! - The plastic coating is to keep it from damaging the anodizing of my GSR-16 and PE

If there are a few here interested in knowing more about my Jack-Bench I will start a thread and post more pics. The web site where I purchased the plans is www.jack-bench.com

The author of the plans is a great guy. I needed to modify my bench to be geared toward being low enough for me to use it from a sitting position as a table more or less and he respond to my email request for help on the weekend when he was on vacation I believe. He helped work through the dimension changes and even calculated what height the legs needed to be.

Jack

Offline The.Handyman

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #247 on: September 28, 2016, 01:12 PM »
Looking to buy one of the GRS-16 guide rail squares. My one question to everyone is:

How are you storing your GRS-16 PE?

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #248 on: September 28, 2016, 04:45 PM »
Mine has pretty much stayed on the rail, of course in my case it never leaves the shop.
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #249 on: September 28, 2016, 06:02 PM »
Looking to buy one of the GRS-16 guide rail squares. My one question to everyone is:

How are you storing your GRS-16 PE?

mine is stored in the systainers with the saw. it fits in a classic sys 4 in front of the saw
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #250 on: September 28, 2016, 06:35 PM »
I posted pics of my GRS -16  Square being stored in the TS55 systainer earlier in this thread.

The GRS -16  PE is rectangular so cannot be stored like its predecessor. I was lucky enough to pick up a zipped bag for a £1, three days earlier at a car boot sale.  It is pefect fit for the PE including the new polystyrene  packing that Hans sent me (Thank you Hans, you da man!).

I have some dimpled foam to add to the top inside face of the bag to protect the PE fully. Will do that tomorrow.

I used the  PE square today, fantastic.  Cutting some bullnosed worktop, so I had to used the square on the back edge of the worktop as it does not sadly work with the front bullnose edge of the worktop.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 06:43 PM by tazprime38 »

Offline Pykie

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #251 on: November 09, 2016, 05:02 AM »
You guys still shipping these to Australia? Very interested.

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #252 on: November 17, 2016, 09:15 PM »
You guys still shipping these to Australia? Very interested.
You bet we're shipping to Australia! - just try to stop us  [big grin]
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Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #253 on: November 17, 2016, 09:24 PM »
You guys still shipping these to Australia? Very interested.
You bet we're shipping to Australia! - just try to stop us  [big grin]
Hans
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@Pykie I got both of mine quick and hassle free. Don't hesitate.

Offline Mark Johnson

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #254 on: November 19, 2016, 02:29 PM »
Can the GRS-16 PE be stored in a Sys 4 in front of the TS55 as indicated ?  There are 2 responses above one says it can (Alan m), the other says because it's rectangular it can't and they are storing it in a separate pouch (tazprime38)?  Any clarification on this appreciated.

Also, the dimensions of the GRS-16 PE would be helpful as I could not see them on the TSO product page, although I may have missed them.

Thanks, Mark

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #255 on: November 19, 2016, 04:12 PM »
@Mark Johnson - you make a very good point about this whole measurement topic. We have a dimension section on the GRS-16 web page but somehow not on the GRS-16 PE version (actually both have the identical 16x6 inch overall rectangular footprint outline).
thanks for bringing it to our attention.

I'll go to the shop and verify the fit into Systainers and post it by Sunday with pictures
Hans
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Offline Spiff

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #256 on: November 19, 2016, 04:15 PM »
Hmm - interesting products, glad I discovered the thread!  8)
I was about to purchase a Triton angle guide, but I like what I see at your web site.  Although your stuff is a lot more expensive I can see the logic and quality behind it.  Maybe I need to hunt out my piggy bank.  Slightly concerned about the possible customs fee hammering though, as I live in the UK  [scared]

Some minor (and pedantic) feedback: 
On your GRS-16 listing it says

Quote
......

Two instances where this unique feature comes in handy:

A.You are using a long guide rail combination and want to be sure that, in spite of the distance from the front square, you are still perfectly square 8 feet (or 4m) away.

But as NASA found out when they missed Mars - 8 feet is not equal to 4m  [smile]

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #257 on: November 19, 2016, 04:31 PM »
@Spiff - we have added the 2,438 mm distance to our list of needed corrections - good observation - thank you!
UK woodworkers rank high on our list of global customers - you'll be glad you joined them  [smile]
Hans
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #258 on: November 19, 2016, 08:12 PM »
Can the GRS-16 PE be stored in a Sys 4 in front of the TS55 as indicated ?  There are 2 responses above one says it can (Alan m), the other says because it's rectangular it can't and they are storing it in a separate pouch (tazprime38)?  Any clarification on this appreciated.

Also, the dimensions of the GRS-16 PE would be helpful as I could not see them on the TSO product page, although I may have missed them.

Thanks, Mark
@Mark Johnson - storing GRS-16 will work in the Systainer with the TS55 see picture. It works best when placed against the back. When placed in front, it displaces the TS55 in a way which causes interference with the foam filler block and prevents the lid from being closed.

GRS-16 PE version will not fit in a SYstainer with the TS55 as the pictures show

The difference in size between the two models exists in the corners which have been trimmed. Compare the shape of the GRS-16 placed on top of a GRS-16 PE with silver colored marking to make it more distinguishable. The footprint of both tools will fit into a 16 inch x 6 inch rectangle.

Hope this clarifies.
Hans
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #259 on: November 19, 2016, 08:16 PM »
pictures did not upload before - here goes again . . .
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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #260 on: November 19, 2016, 08:21 PM »
hope all the pictures loaded this time ...
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Offline Mark Johnson

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #261 on: November 19, 2016, 08:31 PM »
Thank you very much for the quick and helpful response.

So if the GE variant is to be stored, it will need to be outside of the Systainer system it seems. Another quick question hopefully, would it make sense to use the FS Rapid clamp with the guides or would it potentially be working against them?

Thanks, Mark

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #262 on: November 19, 2016, 09:12 PM »
Thank you very much for the quick and helpful response.

So if the GE variant is to be stored, it will need to be outside of the Systainer system it seems. Another quick question hopefully, would it make sense to use the FS Rapid clamp with the guides or would it potentially be working against them?

Thanks, Mark
[/quote
@Mark Johnson - The GRS-16 PE (Parallel Edge version) needs to be stored in something other than a Systainer - a shallow drawer, for example.
Both GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Square are fully compatible with Quick Clamps or any clamp of that T-slot dimension on the FS Guide Rails. Note the little half-round cut out in the GRS-16 to provide clearance for clamps.
FESTOOL guide rails do a very job of resisting movement on clean (no saw dust etc) sheet material and many users apply clamps as the exception rather than the rule. Do what you are comfortable with.
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Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #263 on: November 22, 2016, 06:21 PM »
Can the GRS-16 PE be stored in a Sys 4 in front of the TS55 as indicated ?  There are 2 responses above one says it can (Alan m), the other says because it's rectangular it can't and they are storing it in a separate pouch (tazprime38)?  Any clarification on this appreciated.

Also, the dimensions of the GRS-16 PE would be helpful as I could not see them on the TSO product page, although I may have missed them.

Thanks, Mark


sorry for the late reply.
i have a ts55 in a classic systainer.
the saw insert is designed 180 degrees from the tloc insert. the blade side of the saw is at the front.
my original square fits in just infront of the saw between the saw and the systainer
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Pykie

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #264 on: November 24, 2016, 01:42 AM »
Got mine in Melbourne about 3 days after ordering. Excellent service and a great bit of kit

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 9
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #265 on: December 28, 2016, 05:56 PM »
So, apparently I just discovered this thread and the GRS-16 while waiting for the Ms. to get ready on the morning of December 23rd.

Being the Tool-Addict I am, pulled the trigger right away, hoping that the GRS would be with me, when I return home in January after holidays with the family.

Who would have thought that the brilliant guys @TSO Products would be so quick that the square is sitting at my neighbors since December 27th, waiting to be collected!  [eek]
Astonishing shipping times! 4 days over Christmas from the US to Germany!

Can't wait to get my hands & saw on the product!  [cool] [big grin]

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #266 on: December 28, 2016, 06:12 PM »
The week after Thanksgiving I built a fireplace mantle using the square, rail, and Ts-55.  Seems that I forgot to get my Kapex out of the office that morning.  Worked great on the simple mantle.  Hope that you get the same results that I have.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Jesse Cloud

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #267 on: December 28, 2016, 06:41 PM »
I have been using the square for a couple of months now and had good results.  It cuts good and square, as good as the mft with dogs or the Festool fence.

Its so flexible that its the first thing i reach for if I will be doing the cut only once or twice and don't need to set a stop.

And it is a big help when your mft is loaded with other stuff or has a setup you don't want to break down yet.

Maybe the best bang for the buck of any festool related product I've bought.

Offline Gwerner

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #268 on: December 28, 2016, 08:05 PM »
Thinking I might need to give this a go. One of these combined with my Woodpeckers bench rule with the stop might just eliminate my parallel guide set.

Offline ScotF

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #269 on: December 28, 2016, 08:42 PM »
Thinking I might need to give this a go. One of these combined with my Woodpeckers bench rule with the stop might just eliminate my parallel guide set.
That was what I was thinking...

Offline mike_aa

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #270 on: December 28, 2016, 10:38 PM »
@Gwerner  @ScotF

Something like this?

Mike A.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:41 PM by mike_aa »

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #271 on: December 28, 2016, 10:39 PM »
to all of you who post on the FOG forum: - a heartfelt thank you !
your messages, comments, questions and compliments all add up to guidance and encouragement in our daily work and new product developments.

You have a bigger impact than you might imagine. Please keep it up as we roll into the new year together!

all the Best!
Hans and Eric
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Offline Gwerner

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #272 on: December 28, 2016, 11:25 PM »
@Gwerner  @ScotF

Something like this?
(Attachment Link)
Mike A.

Yep, seeing your original post now has convinced me.

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #273 on: December 28, 2016, 11:36 PM »
@Gwerner  @ScotF

Something like this?
(Attachment Link)
Mike A.

Yep, seeing your original post now has convinced me.

Now imagine if the ruler stop was wider and had two adjustable slot width bench dogs as the zero stop [wink] [big grin]

Offline ScotF

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #274 on: December 29, 2016, 11:03 AM »
@Gwerner  @ScotF

Something like this?
(Attachment Link)
Mike A.

Yep, seeing your original post now has convinced me.

Exactly -- I remember seeing your post and it looks like the perfect set-up -- no fuss.  [thumbs up]

Offline Gwerner

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #275 on: December 29, 2016, 04:07 PM »
I'm in, just ordered the PE version.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #276 on: December 29, 2016, 05:20 PM »
... And then for another application there is coming something else.  One got delivered to my doorstep yesterday.  HOLY COW!

Sorry, sworn to secrecy at this point.  But hopefully the weather will cooperate this weekend and I can put it thru the paces.

Hint:  It is not a snow shovel but it a pinch...  And it does not replace all those squares you guys are buying.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #277 on: December 29, 2016, 05:40 PM »
And it does not replace all those squares you guys are buying.

Peter

Just most of them...

Tom

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #278 on: December 29, 2016, 05:44 PM »
I meant the TSO guide rail squares.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #279 on: December 29, 2016, 06:19 PM »
I meant the TSO guide rail squares.

Peter

TSO guide rail square is not included in "most", it is the finest guide rail square in the history of guide rail squares.  [wink]

Tom

Offline SouthRider

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #280 on: December 29, 2016, 09:36 PM »
Now all we need is an optional tape measure cartridge with built in cursor that fastens to the top of the square, and has the offset for the rail width built into the tape!

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #281 on: December 29, 2016, 10:48 PM »
Now all we need is an optional tape measure cartridge with built in cursor that fastens to the top of the square, and has the offset for the rail width built into the tape!
@southrider  -  your comment is not as far fetched as some might think. You won't be surprised when you sede some of the add-ons for our Guie Rail Squares as the new year unfolds - stay tuned.
If you're not on our "TSO Insider" mailing list just sign up  at tsoproducts.com so you'll hear more about it

Hans
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Offline Dan Pattison

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #282 on: January 07, 2017, 06:33 AM »
I just released a full video review as well as a review article of both the GRS-16 and the GRS-16 PE.  A big thanks to @TSO Products for sending these to me to review.  I put them both to work in my shop for the past couple of months and was impressed with their performance.  See them in action and get all of my thoughts in my review below.  Hope you guys find it helpful.



You can also read my full review article on my website.

https://www.danpattison.com/blog/2017/1/7/grs-16-track-saw-guide-rail-square-review
Dan Pattison

danpattison.com

Offline Alan m

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #283 on: January 07, 2017, 05:58 PM »
i  tip it to move it aswell.
i was thinking about adding some small wheel to the side of the track so that when it tips the wheels will roll easy
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Offline Gwerner

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #284 on: January 12, 2017, 02:41 AM »
Now all we need is an optional tape measure cartridge with built in cursor that fastens to the top of the square, and has the offset for the rail width built into the tape!
@southrider  -  your comment is not as far fetched as some might think. You won't be surprised when you sede some of the add-ons for our Guie Rail Squares as the new year unfolds - stay tuned.
If you're not on our "TSO Insider" mailing list just sign up  at tsoproducts.com so you'll hear more about it

Hans
info@tsoproducts.com

I had a chance to use my GRS-16 PE for the first time tonight and have to say I'm impressed. Only did some 36" cuts so I can't speak to the accuracy on longer cuts yet, but every cut I made was dead on square and this works perfectly for me. Looking forward to see what kind of add-ons you have in store for this.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #285 on: January 20, 2017, 09:29 PM »
a customer inquired on January 13th about shipping a Guide Rail Square to the UK.
 We received this message today - 7 days later:

"Hello TSO people,

This is to let (you) know that my order ( GRS-16 Parallel Edge Guide Rail Square ) arrived safely and very speedily. ( I am in the United Kingdom.)

I appreciate good design and  sound products , so I am very happy to add this Guide to my Track saw accessories. Not cheap but unique to the market and fulfilling a genuine need so well done.


Kind Regards
R.G."


International shipping, as well as domestic, is really running well
Hans
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #286 on: January 22, 2017, 03:24 PM »
I used my PE guide yesterday and it really is a game changer as I only need to mark where the cut needs to be at a single point and then just plonk the rail with PE guide on the mark and tight against the front edge.

No checking, then just cut. Saves so much time trying to make sure your cutting square. Yesterday didn't even check the cuts to confirm the cuts were square as didn't need to.

Hans, can you elaborate on the new attachments and when is the release date? Will the new attachment work on both the original and PE squares? Will this be true for future and all new accessories or will some work with only the original square and not the PE and vise versa?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #287 on: January 22, 2017, 07:41 PM »
@tazprime38  - your experience report regarding the performance of your Guide Rail Square is welcome and appreciated - most helpful - thank you.

Our accessory plans are at the stage where we have launched current production with mounting provisions for accessories on our development horizon and others we have not even thought of yet. Our aim is and will always be to provide for backward compatibility to the extent possible - to the extent that we are savvy enough to look that far ahead. Case in point: our new MTR-18 and PTR-18 precision triangles - lots of accessory adaptability designed in from the start as you'll see in a month or so.

For existing Guide Rail Squares we envision a retrofit kit to make new accessories compatible. Good point - we should say so in our TSO INSIDER newsletter, too.

Hans
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #288 on: January 23, 2017, 05:44 AM »
Will the retrofit kits bring in some error margins ie will the accuracy be compramised?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #289 on: January 23, 2017, 09:37 AM »
the planned retrofit and future Guide Rail Square accessory changes will have ZERO effect on accuracy.
Hans
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Offline tazprime38

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #290 on: January 23, 2017, 11:46 AM »
Hans, that is good to know.

Have you released any info on the mtr-18 and ptr-18 precision triangles?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #291 on: January 23, 2017, 12:10 PM »
Hans, that is good to know.

Have you released any info on the mtr-18 and ptr-18 precision triangles?

@tazprime38  - no specifics published yet  on the two new 18" Triangles. They will be announced when ready to ship production triangles of both models in February.
TSO INSIDER News will have the first public details followed by the FOG.

We are probablky even more anxious than you are [wink]
Hans
info@tsoproducts.com
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares - and the MTR-18 Triangle

Offline Corwin

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #292 on: February 12, 2017, 11:12 PM »
Gave my GRS-16 Guide Rail Square a bit of a workout today with super results.  It snapped right on the rail and was dead on square.  I needed to cut a good number of panels to the same size so I paired it with a Woodpecker's rule and rule stop and got consistent results.  Worked great!

(Attachment Link)

Thanks TSO!

Mike A.

Way, way, way late to this thread.  [doh]  So, just finished reading this from start to finish and I must say that this product looks like the best answer yet to square your rail to your workpiece.

The setup (from the quoted post) that uses both a TSO square and a measuring rule looks like a great way to readily make your cuts. But, rather than use the rule's stop directly against the end of your workpiece, why not use a spacer the width of your Guide Rail in between the two so you can set the stop directly to the desired dimension? Simply cut a spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail by butting a stop against the back side of the Guide Rail and then butt your spacer material up to that stop and cut off the excess -- perfect spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail. Now that rule will function properly.  [wink]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 926
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #293 on: February 13, 2017, 12:20 AM »
Gave my GRS-16 Guide Rail Square a bit of a workout today with super results.  It snapped right on the rail and was dead on square.  I needed to cut a good number of panels to the same size so I paired it with a Woodpecker's rule and rule stop and got consistent results.  Worked great!

(Attachment Link)

Thanks TSO!

Mike A.

Way, way, way late to this thread.  [doh]  So, just finished reading this from start to finish and I must say that this product looks like the best answer yet to square your rail to your workpiece.

The setup (from the quoted post) that uses both a TSO square and a measuring rule looks like a great way to readily make your cuts. But, rather than use the rule's stop directly against the end of your workpiece, why not use a spacer the width of your Guide Rail in between the two so you can set the stop directly to the desired dimension? Simply cut a spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail by butting a stop against the back side of the Guide Rail and then butt your spacer material up to that stop and cut off the excess -- perfect spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail. Now that rule will function properly.  [wink]

Good idea, @Corwin

That would be especially helpful if you have to do a number of cuts that are of different dimensions.  It takes the math of subtracting the guide rail offset out of the equation.  [big grin]   Thanks!

Mike A.

Offline Corwin

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #294 on: February 13, 2017, 12:42 AM »
Thanks, Mike! A scrap piece that has been cut to the width of your Guide Rail has a few applications that prove handy.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline fuzzy logic

  • Posts: 323
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #295 on: February 13, 2017, 05:49 AM »
Getting envious of the availability of these attachments for Festool guide rails. 
They seem so darned good at what they do. 
Well done Hans and Eric.  And, for open-mindedness wrt constructive criticism.

Currently use Bosch rails - which they don't fit. 
Imagine that could be a deal breaker for some people. 

Wonder how come Festool never came up with this 'innovative' idea - and, put it into production. 
Bet would be a lot more expensive though. 

 Richard (UK)

[edit: added a word]
Decent people do the right thing - always?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #296 on: February 13, 2017, 01:45 PM »
Gave my GRS-16 Guide Rail Square a bit of a workout today with super results.  It snapped right on the rail and was dead on square.  I needed to cut a good number of panels to the same size so I paired it with a Woodpecker's rule and rule stop and got consistent results.  Worked great!

(Attachment Link)

Thanks TSO!

Mike A.

Way, way, way late to this thread.  [doh]  So, just finished reading this from start to finish and I must say that this product looks like the best answer yet to square your rail to your workpiece.

The setup (from the quoted post) that uses both a TSO square and a measuring rule looks like a great way to readily make your cuts. But, rather than use the rule's stop directly against the end of your workpiece, why not use a spacer the width of your Guide Rail in between the two so you can set the stop directly to the desired dimension? Simply cut a spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail by butting a stop against the back side of the Guide Rail and then butt your spacer material up to that stop and cut off the excess -- perfect spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail. Now that rule will function properly.  [wink]

@mike_aa and @Corwin you make us show our hand:
for some time we have been aiming to add accessories to the GRS-16 series which would facilitate exactly what you are talking about - namely combining "squaring" with "parallel edge distance setting".
Our NextGen GRS-16 series have been shipping quietly with a new integral provision for such an attachment. This provision is designed to be retrofittable in the field. We will provide instructions how to accomplish this on all GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE squares ever built.
 when our accessory becomes available some months into this year we will provide full particulars.
Hans
info@tsoproducts.com

TSOproducts.com
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares - and the MTR-18 Triangle

Offline tazprime38

  • Posts: 214
Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #297 on: February 13, 2017, 07:10 PM »
Gave my GRS-16 Guide Rail Square a bit of a workout today with super results.  It snapped right on the rail and was dead on square.  I needed to cut a good number of panels to the same size so I paired it with a Woodpecker's rule and rule stop and got consistent results.  Worked great!

(Attachment Link)

Thanks TSO!

Mike A.

Way, way, way late to this thread.  [doh]  So, just finished reading this from start to finish and I must say that this product looks like the best answer yet to square your rail to your workpiece.

The setup (from the quoted post) that uses both a TSO square and a measuring rule looks like a great way to readily make your cuts. But, rather than use the rule's stop directly against the end of your workpiece, why not use a spacer the width of your Guide Rail in between the two so you can set the stop directly to the desired dimension? Simply cut a spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail by butting a stop against the back side of the Guide Rail and then butt your spacer material up to that stop and cut off the excess -- perfect spacer the exact width of your Guide Rail. Now that rule will function properly.  [wink]

@mike_aa and @Corwin you make us show our hand:
for some time we have been aiming to add accessories to the GRS-16 series which would facilitate exactly what you are talking about - namely combining "squaring" with "parallel edge distance setting".
Our NextGen GRS-16 series have been shipping quietly with a new integral provision for such an attachment. This provision is designed to be retrofittable in the field. We will provide instructions how to accomplish this on all GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE squares ever built.
 when our accessory becomes available some months into this year we will provide full particulars.
Hans
info@tsoproducts.com

Hans, can you post pictures of the new integral provision on the latest version of the GRS -16 /PE squares?