Author Topic: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review  (Read 99389 times)

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Offline Peter Halle

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I received a product soon to be released to the market and was asked for my thoughts on it.  Let's get the disclosure stuff out of the way right now.  I did not solicit getting this product.  I am not an investor or related in anyone who is involved.  I get no compensation in any way but I get to keep the square.  If that bothers you now that I have disclosed that then...

The square I received may be different than what will ultimately be released.  It does have a patent pending.  I do not know what the retail price will be.

But until I get a chance to put together video segments shot, here is a teaser about what makes it different in my mind from my kitchen counter:



Peter

Offline Billedis

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2016, 09:49 PM »
Looks interesting.  Thanks for sharing Bill

Offline ear3

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 07:39 AM »
Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 08:56 AM »
Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.

Ed,  curious about your comment.  Which aluminum do you think will deform?  The square?  The track?  The bearing area of the square to the side of track is about 5.75 inches.

I have nothing to do with the manufacturer or the sales of this square so these questions are just for knowledge.

Peter

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 08:57 AM »
Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.
I have had the opportunity to use this new square extensively.
not visible in Peter,s video clip: the square is not a flat plate . It has a raised surface that backs up the the track edge for about six inches so the clamping action simply holds two pieces of metal together which are already up against each other. The guide rail tracks are not soft. they are heat treated, probably to a T5 or T6 temper, or you would not able to keep them straight in normal use. stay tuned for more details.
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Cheese

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 09:36 AM »
I wouldn't worry about any rail damage as that is just a simple over center spring clamp that doesn't provide a lot of "track bending power."

http://www.southco.com/en-ca/97

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 09:50 AM »
I wouldn't worry about any rail damage as that is just a simple over center spring clamp that doesn't provide a lot of "track bending power."

http://www.southco.com/en-ca/97

Rainy day today.  I checked the clamp on the one I have and it is a Southco.

Peter

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 01:36 PM »
That's brilliant! I was fiddling around with a square last year but never came up with a method of attaching to the rail that I really liked. Kudos to the designer!

RMW
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Offline ear3

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 04:07 PM »
I was thinking about the track, but based on others comments I guess it wouldn't be an issue?

Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.

Ed,  curious about your comment.  Which aluminum do you think will deform?  The square?  The track?  The bearing area of the square to the side of track is about 5.75 inches.

I have nothing to do with the manufacturer or the sales of this square so these questions are just for knowledge.

Peter
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 05:04 PM »
Assuming the "hook" is pressing the side wall of the slot against the square there should not be any tendency to twist the AL making up the slot. If it is pulling on the lip of the slot then there might be some potential bend it slightly. I think it will depng on how far the hook extends into the slot. Hope this makes sense.

RMW

I was thinking about the track, but based on others comments I guess it wouldn't be an issue?

Interesting.  We'll see what comes of it.  I could see potential issues of deforming the soft aluminum every time it locks down.  Even slight deformations will result in out of square cuts.

Ed,  curious about your comment.  Which aluminum do you think will deform?  The square?  The track?  The bearing area of the square to the side of track is about 5.75 inches.

I have nothing to do with the manufacturer or the sales of this square so these questions are just for knowledge.

Peter
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2016, 09:26 AM »
thanks for the interest and comments regarding our new GRS-16 Guide Rail Square.
Look for our own video and complete details on the story in a post following the 4th of July weekend with the launch of production shipments.
We've moved from being a FESTOOL user to accessory developer and manufacturer as part of our business serving tradespeople who use our products in their line of work. A reason to change our status to "RETAILER" and our "handle" to the business name: "TSO Products" - but my nickname is still "Klemm".
Have a great 4th of July Holiday wherever you are!
see you next week on the FOG
Klemm
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2016, 09:24 AM »
our plan to go live with video and information about our new GRS-16 "5-second" Guide Rail Square was put on hold by a major MICROSOFT OFFICE 365 Exchange Online problem.
We have been running our business on OFFICE 365 for a good number of years and this is the first time that we have been effectively shut down and now more than a week.
We have Product ready to ship, a video and text to explain it but are still waiting for our online capability to come back online.
Last night MS said they "have 79% of the fix deployed"  and "expected to complete within 48 hours"

thanks for bearing with us!
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline scottie

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2016, 11:50 AM »
Just watched your product video:
Looks incredible!
I was sad to miss the woodpecker's one-time square. Now I'm glad I did.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2016, 03:20 PM »
Awesome design! I ordered one, looking forward to using it, much easier than the setup I was fiddling with.

I assume you limited the length specifically so it will fit in a systainer, which makes sense, As a suggestion, I would prefer a longer one to improve accuracy, and would pay a premium for it.

Good luck, doubtless there will be tons of demand.  [thumbs up]

RMW
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Offline dalep

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2016, 03:25 PM »
I just ordered one too, looking forward to using it

Regards

Dale

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2016, 03:48 PM »
Very good design.  I may have to add to the wish list.
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2016, 03:58 PM »
I grabbed my square out and a full sheet of plywood.  Using my Starrett carpenter square which has been tested for square the plywood was amazingly square.  Then using the square to set my distance I tried it out this blue rail square using the 2700 rail and the 1400 rail.  Using the long rail it is a bit of a wrestling match due to the sticky rubber strip on the bottom of the rail.  I was able to get consistently to within 1/16" of square at 96".  Grabbing a speed square on the other end it was so quick to adjust.  Using a 1400 rail it was nuts on every time.  I believe that to be due to the foam on the plywood - not the accuracy of the square.

Now what I want is one made in a mirror image so that it could be installed on the other end of the rail and then quickly slid into place to square the other end when using a long rail.  As quickly as they adjust it would really cut down on the rail adjusting dance - if you know what I mean.

They are ruggedly built.  Last week I was going to shoot a video (OOPS) while at work and I placed the square and a short section of rail on the trunk of my wife's car so that I could open the van door.  I then got distracted and went off to work.  I discovered on the job that I didn't have what I needed for the video.  RATS!.  When I came home my wife asked me to run to the grocery store - 16 miles round trip.  I took her car.  The next morning I noticed the rail on her trunk (it stayed there for 16 miles at speeds up to 65 MPH).   [thumbs up] The square was out in the street.   [eek] Anodizing a little messed up on the corners but otherwise OK.  [big grin]

Peter

« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 04:03 PM by Peter Halle »

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2016, 05:24 PM »
They are ruggedly built.  Last week I was going to shoot a video (OOPS) while at work and I placed the square and a short section of rail on the trunk of my wife's car so that I could open the van door.  I then got distracted and went off to work.  I discovered on the job that I didn't have what I needed for the video.  RATS!.  When I came home my wife asked me to run to the grocery store - 16 miles round trip.  I took her car.  The next morning I noticed the rail on her trunk (it stayed there for 16 miles at speeds up to 65 MPH).   [thumbs up] The square was out in the street.   [eek] Anodizing a little messed up on the corners but otherwise OK.  [big grin]

Peter

Peter,
Now this would have made for a great video, and a testimonial to the fact clamping the rail is optional!
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2016, 08:36 PM »
I just ordered one too, looking forward to using it

Regards

Dale

How did you do that. There seems to be only one obscure (to me) way to pay.


Offline copcarcollector

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2016, 01:06 AM »
How did you do that. There seems to be only one obscure (to me) way to pay.

@Michael Kellough

Click the button that says "Authorize.net", the next step will let you enter a credit card. "Authorize.net" is their cc processor

They should change that  language online in my opinion...



« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 01:10 AM by copcarcollector »

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2016, 08:03 AM »
Good morning FOG members and thank you . . .
- for your patience - MICROSOFT Online was back up for us and running last night
- for your feedback which we take very seriously (more on that later)
- for your orders  from coast-to-coast in the US and also overseas!

we're shipping [smile]

Klemm
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2016, 10:13 AM »
 I sent along the following suggestions via the website.

Offer a discount for two ( 2) or more. Perhaps during the free shipping 30 days.

Expand the video to show usefulness of two guides with sheet goods or long trim board

Post schematic drawing so we can easily make a box, tray or holster. My guess is someone quickly will come up with a holster to attach to the MFT rail. Of course you can measure but a top and side drawing would be a help to construct a holder of some kind if a #1 Systainer was not in the offing.

It has two triangular opening but an extra hole at the pointed end would help to hang it on the wall or from a hook on the MFT rail.

Throw in an extra screw. These are hard to find and it is unlikely but some keep track of small parts for future use.

Woodpeckers would have added a rule along the long edge for what I don't know but they just add rules to everything they make. (LOL) Then they would have offered either Metric or Imperial with one in stainless steel.

It is on my shopping list. I can see the usefulness of two. Perhaps a second one could be developed that acts just as a holder in place that would not have to be that large that would sell for about half the cost.
Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2016, 10:47 AM »
I sent along the following suggestions via the website.

Offer a discount for two ( 2) or more. Perhaps during the free shipping 30 days.

Expand the video to show usefulness of two guides with sheet goods or long trim board

Post schematic drawing so we can easily make a box, tray or holster. My guess is someone quickly will come up with a holster to attach to the MFT rail. Of course you can measure but a top and side drawing would be a help to construct a holder of some kind if a #1 Systainer was not in the offing.

It has two triangular opening but an extra hole at the pointed end would help to hang it on the wall or from a hook on the MFT rail.

Throw in an extra screw. These are hard to find and it is unlikely but some keep track of small parts for future use.

Woodpeckers would have added a rule along the long edge for what I don't know but they just add rules to everything they make. (LOL) Then they would have offered either Metric or Imperial with one in stainless steel.

It is on my shopping list. I can see the usefulness of two. Perhaps a second one could be developed that acts just as a holder in place that would not have to be that large that would sell for about half the cost.
Clark - thanks for the organized list of suggestions and comments.
Qty discount idea: we'll see how quickly we can upload that functionality on the website. We still have a lot of work to do on the integration of this product and all the back-end functions. If we don't get it done quickly, the idea will remain on our plate.

Using two squares: Peter Halle made a suggestion for a Square to go on the opposite end - a mirror image product. Is that what you also have in mind? We can do that if there is sufficient indication of interest. We can mention it in the video re-do and see what comments we get.

Holster / tool holder is in the works already based on earlier suggestions during field testing - thanks for reinforcing the need.

Systainer storage: we are wondering if there is a sufficient need to warrant tooling up a Systainer insert of High density EPS foam like FESTOOL uses as (black) filler blocks when shipping some power tools need - let us know. Likely adds about $ 10 to cost for foam, larger box and shipping.

Hole for hanging: we considered it at first before realizing that there are already two perfectly "easy" hanging holes in the form of the open triangles. No aiming required to carefully hang - anything will work as a hook or peg. Your reaction to our response, please.

Extra Screws: - AMEN to that. We chose Imperial fasteners to simplify replacement issues in the field. We spell it out in the website specs, too. We may choose to include a couple of extra screws in future shipments. Meanwhile if anyone loses a screw, we'll mail out no charge replacements anyway:)

Laser engraving; we can do that when we see a justifiable value - probably on a future and different product.

keep the feedback coming - we'll post updates

Klemm




TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2016, 10:53 AM »
After I posted my comment on a mirror image square for the opposite end (not for everyone's usage of course and would only be of use if the sheet or workpiece had two parallel edges) I realized that would probably preclude the use of the 2700 rail on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and the 1400 as a crosscut unless it was of a different and smaller design.

Peter

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2016, 11:04 AM »
After I posted my comment on a mirror image square for the opposite end (not for everyone's usage of course and would only be of use if the sheet or workpiece had two parallel edges) I realized that would probably preclude the use of the 2700 rail on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood and the 1400 as a crosscut unless it was of a different and smaller design.

Peter
Peter, why would a mirror image GRS-16-R Square not work with any rail, regardless of length? - what am I not understanding?
Klemm
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline clark_fork

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2016, 11:12 AM »
I sent along the following suggestions via the website.

Offer a discount for two ( 2) or more. Perhaps during the free shipping 30 days.

Expand the video to show usefulness of two guides with sheet goods or long trim board

Post schematic drawing so we can easily make a box, tray or holster. My guess is someone quickly will come up with a holster to attach to the MFT rail. Of course you can measure but a top and side drawing would be a help to construct a holder of some kind if a #1 Systainer was not in the offing.

It has two triangular opening but an extra hole at the pointed end would help to hang it on the wall or from a hook on the MFT rail.

Throw in an extra screw. These are hard to find and it is unlikely but some keep track of small parts for future use.

Woodpeckers would have added a rule along the long edge for what I don't know but they just add rules to everything they make. (LOL) Then they would have offered either Metric or Imperial with one in stainless steel.

It is on my shopping list. I can see the usefulness of two. Perhaps a second one could be developed that acts just as a holder in place that would not have to be that large that would sell for about half the cost.
Clark - thanks for the organized list of suggestions and comments.
Qty discount idea: we'll see how quickly we can upload that functionality on the website. We still have a lot of work to do on the integration of this product and all the back-end functions. If we don't get it done quickly, the idea will remain on our plate.

Thanks. For now I would wait for the mirror image modification.

Using two squares: Peter Halle made a suggestion for a Square to go on the opposite end - a mirror image product. Is that what you also have in mind? We can do that if there is sufficient indication of interest. We can mention it in the video re-do and see what comments we get.

I was thinking more of a cut down version that would just be a holder so you could run around and more easily clamp the rail in place making sure there was no drift. Not so much a mirror image but just half or a third of the size with the emphasis on the primary holder to square the rail.  I was also thinking of how the guides slide along the table. It seems to me that the steps are to loosen the clamps and with the holder guide at the north end, it more easily slides along to the next cut on the square.

Holster / tool holder is in the works already based on earlier suggestions during field testing - thanks for reinforcing the need.

I always worry about a tool or square falling on the floor I work on concrete floors. I want to put it safely away.

Systainer storage: we are wondering if there is a sufficient need to warrant tooling up a Systainer insert of High density EPS foam like FESTOOL uses as (black) filler blocks when shipping some power tools need - let us know. Likely adds about $ 10 to cost for foam, larger box and shipping.

No interest here. Too mercurial for me.

Hole for hanging: we considered it at first before realizing that there are already two perfectly "easy" hanging holes in the form of the open triangles. No aiming required to carefully hang - anything will work as a hook or peg. Your reaction to our response, please.

It is a matter of gravity. How will it hang on the wall?  My thought was that if the hole was at the pointed end, it would better hang straight down rather than hang at a tilt.



Extra Screws: - AMEN to that. We chose Imperial fasteners to simplify replacement issues in the field. We spell it out in the website specs, too. We may choose to include a couple of extra screws in future shipments. Meanwhile if anyone loses a screw, we'll mail out no charge replacements anyway:)

Laser engraving; we can do that when we see a justifiable value - probably on a future and different product.

No value. I was just kidding about what would Woodpecker do? They go overboard with features.

keep the feedback coming - we'll post updates

Klemm
Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Kev

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2016, 11:47 AM »
@TSO Products

Hi,

I'm getting "free freight" on shipping to Australia .. Not complaining, just confirming before I enter my credit card details [smile]

Kev.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2016, 12:17 PM »
Peter, why would a mirror image GRS-16-R Square not work with any rail, regardless of length? - what am I not understanding?
Klemm

If you consider how much room each square takes on the rail, then I think that you will see certain combinations of rail and 2 squares do not allow for the full 4 ft or 8 ft to fit between the squares.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: A New Rail Square Coming to Market - Teaser for Future Review
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2016, 12:38 PM »
@TSO Products

Hi,

I'm getting "free freight" on shipping to Australia .. Not complaining, just confirming before I enter my credit card details [smile]

Kev.
Kev,
yes, we will pay shipping for this product introduction - including to you friends in Australia. We are planning to use US Postal Service for shipping. We just checked on UPS shipping cost to the UK, which is based on air shipment only and shipping cost would be $ 157.71 not including any fees at the receiving end. You can see why we are planning to us the Post Office - slower but more reasonable cost.

Klemm
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions