Author Topic: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o  (Read 1868 times)

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Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 266
Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« on: July 10, 2019, 03:10 PM »
Hi,

Anybody that can explain why not all sandpaper can be bought in quantities of 10/50/100 ?

Anywhere a simple overview which grids and quantity are available per type and machine? FT's website is not truly user-friendly for this (understatement) and neither is their work app (hint to ft dev's: sort on grid?) :o
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 03:33 PM by threesixright »

Online ear3

  • Posts: 3800
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 03:23 PM »
And while we're at it, why 100 grit Granat isn't available for the RTS and RS2 in America.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6023
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2019, 04:37 PM »
Anybody that can explain why not all sandpaper can be bought in quantities of 10/50/100 ?

There's hardly any logic to it. They're mostly geared towards professionals that's why most of their grits are available in 50 and 100 packs. And then some of the most popular papers and grits are also available in 10 for those who don't use that much.

I don't understand why they could not make a webpage where you can order any paper in any quantity you want and have it send to you or your local dealer for pick up.  The idea is so bloody simple and I'm sure people would really dig that.

Anywhere a simple overview which grids and quantity are available per type and machine? FT's website is not truly user-friendly for this (understatement) and neither is their work app (hint to ft dev's: sort on grid?) :o

Indeed, understatement of the year. Once, long ago they had a very nice website where I could find any kind of info about any kind of tool or accessory in a matter of seconds, now, with their new design, I just don't even bother anymore. The site is sloooooow, everything is hidden behind 30 layers of interface, and lots of stuff simply isn't there. No thanks.

I also noticed I used to buy lots of official Festool consumables back then, and now almost nothing. Everything I buy is 3rd party. Correlation or causation? I'll leave it to the Festool marketing geniusses to decide that.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 990
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2019, 04:49 PM »
I have to say I agree with Alex here, the target audience are professionals going through corresponding quantities.

The request for hand picked assortments has been made many times, and some dealers offer it. One of my brick and mortar store type dealer does it, mikestoolshop.at offers smaller quantities, online, too.

What I don't see, because of human error and time consuming process is true "old world candy shop" like hand picking: 1 here, 2 there and 3 of those ...

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6023
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2019, 05:55 PM »
What I don't see, because of human error and time consuming process is true "old world candy shop" like hand picking: 1 here, 2 there and 3 of those ...

I don't understand what you mean here. This is standard operating procedure for any webshop. Of which there are countless numbers all over the net.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 266
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2019, 06:02 PM »
Well good to see I'm not the only one  [tongue]

I think FT is missing the mark, there are plenty of prosumers around here I would think.

I already ditched a few webshops, since they seemed to be missing paper in the low quantities. Well, so I thought (lol). Now it turns out, it simply isn't available. Apparently someone at FT throws a dice, which paper gets which quantities. What a crapshoot.

For some types there are 3rd party alternatives, but not for all I think. Anyone a 3rd party for the DTS P100 paper, since the only sell this by the 100 [mad] ? Sorry for a better word, but this is really nuts. I can even imagine not all pro's even want to buy this by the 100. Makes me want to reconsider a DTS [eek]

To FT's CIO, I'm happy to make you a offer for a real website ;) Just shoot me a PM.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 266
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2019, 06:07 PM »
What I don't see, because of human error and time consuming process is true "old world candy shop" like hand picking: 1 here, 2 there and 3 of those ...

I don't understand what you mean here. This is standard operating procedure for any webshop. Of which there are countless numbers all over the net.
I think @six-point socket II  is talking about sandpaper. So you can just a pick a few sheets of whatever you need and try it out. Since every job is different and you never know what works and how much you need. Just guessing here !  [tongue]

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 990
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2019, 06:11 PM »
What I don't see, because of human error and time consuming process is true "old world candy shop" like hand picking: 1 here, 2 there and 3 of those ...

I don't understand what you mean here. This is standard operating procedure for any webshop. Of which there are countless numbers all over the net.

What I meant by that, orders that would need to be picked/commissioned like this:

2 Sheets   40 grit round 150 dia.
2 Sheets 120 grit rectangular
1 Sheet   180 grit delta
3 Sheets 120 grit delta, type a
2 Sheets 120 grit delta, type b
4 Sheets   80 grit round 90 dia. net type
...

I can see that for brick and mortar stores on a self service base by providing a shelf with open boxes. But not as "service" and priced accordingly for online retail.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 990
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2019, 06:12 PM »
What I don't see, because of human error and time consuming process is true "old world candy shop" like hand picking: 1 here, 2 there and 3 of those ...

I don't understand what you mean here. This is standard operating procedure for any webshop. Of which there are countless numbers all over the net.
I think @six-point socket II  is talking about sandpaper. So you can just a pick a few sheets of whatever you need and try it out. Since every job is different and you never know what works and how much you need. Just guessing here !  [tongue]

You are correct, Sir! :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1075
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2019, 06:36 PM »
One dealer in the US, Festool Nirvana, offers custom abrasive assortments in packs of 50.  If you need a 125 mm assortment, Hartville Tool offers a sampler pack.

Mike A.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2727
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2019, 07:23 PM »
Yes the Festool website is a disorganised mess - and this is the fault of German HQ as all international Fedtool Websites are based on the German website’s structure.

As for the sand papers - find a bricks and mortar store that splits packets - my preferred dealer has a rack of opened boxes.
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 530
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2019, 10:47 PM »
I have to say I agree with Alex here, the target audience are professionals going through corresponding quantities.

The request for hand picked assortments has been made many times, and some dealers offer it. One of my brick and mortar store type dealer does it, mikestoolshop.at offers smaller quantities, online, too.

What I don't see, because of human error and time consuming process is true "old world candy shop" like hand picking: 1 here, 2 there and 3 of those ...

Kind regards,
Oliver

No person would be involved,  automated dispenser for this would be straightforward.  They probably don't have to look any further than the plant where the paper is made to find the machines all ready existing or the bits to put a setup together. 

maybe not much business to make a free standing business, but just team up with someone like Amazon,  1/2 dozen distro setups around the country where they have a machine set up with all the sizes and grits, it just grabs it all dumping it in the box and it's off and away.  No different than other things.

I think Festool thinks they win because people will have to buy large amounts and then buy for each machine. In the end, folks standardize on 1 size, and buy all their machines around that, so a 115mm sander, no thanks.  Also they look elsewhere as Alex mentions.   I did buy a big batch of stuff with all the grits to get going.  It truely felt insane.  But if I need more or other sizes, I'm probably looking elsewhere

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 266
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2019, 01:38 AM »
What a insanity. A company got famous because of dust free sanding. Yet  paper is hard to get in normal quantities.

Why would you buy a car, if there is no fuel for it, except if you buy 1000 liters at a time?

FT please wake up, a official FT response would
appreciated. Wishful thinking?



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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6023
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2019, 02:59 AM »
For some types there are 3rd party alternatives, but not for all I think. Anyone a 3rd party for the DTS P100 paper, since the only sell this by the 100 [mad] ?

nonpaintstore.nl can help you with all your sanding needs all over the world.

I can see that for brick and mortar stores on a self service base by providing a shelf with open boxes. But not as "service" and priced accordingly for online retail.

It's already been done by countless webshops all over the net for many types of articles. Nothing new here, and fulfilling a typical order takes just minutes in a well set up organisation. There are for instance websites where you can order every single Lego brick in any quantity they have. Much more complicated than just a few sheets of sandpaper and yet they manage while not being an international multi-million dollar company like Festool. And it's not a stand alone operation, everything is connected, having sandpaper easily available will make it easier for people to justify buying an expensive sander. Or two.

No person would be involved,  automated dispenser for this would be straightforward.  They probably don't have to look any further than the plant where the paper is made to find the machines all ready existing or the bits to put a setup together. 

Exactly.

I think Festool thinks they win because people will have to buy large amounts and then buy for each machine. In the end, folks standardize on 1 size, and buy all their machines around that, so a 115mm sander, no thanks.

At one point I had 13 Festool sanders, I would have never bought so many if I hadn't been able to get sandpaper for them in low quantities. Now down to 6 sanders. I dumped the RO90 specifically because of the bad availability of sandpaper, would have loved to hang onto it and keep on buying paper in 10 packs for many years to come. 

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 266
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2019, 03:53 AM »
It's already been done by countless webshops all over the net for many types of articles. N
Any website comes to mind that do this for FT sand paper ?  [tongue]

I need to sand 15 large windows/doors (with glass) (~ 800x2000 metric) and I have not a clue how much I need. Add to that, I have not a clue what grit to start. I would just want to buy 10 of each for the whole range (P80 - P240 or so) and see what works.

For the DTS I probably need P120, P150 and P180 (to start with). Awesome only comes in 100 pieces per boxes, 150+ EUR. I don't mind spending it, if there is a need for it.

Is there any rule of thumb how long a piece of Granat actually lasts (when doing windows)? I mean: do I need to count with 1 piece  (avg) per window or can you do 5?

[rant starts]

To see what quantities are available you would think thats a 30 second lookup:

  • goto Festool(.nl)
  • click Search (right top)
  • type: P120
  • yeah 931 hits ! very useful, lets narrow it down. Simply adding the machine would do it, right?
  • type: P120 DTS
  • wrong! zero results
  • ok, well at least adding 'granat' works, right?
  • P120 granat
  • wrong! zero results

[jawdrop]

This is really amature hour. A search engine that can not search and was clearly never tested.

Bottom line: "p120 granat dts" should just list all available abrasives for this machine/type/grit

Right, let's download their "order app", add the tool, goto abrasives. Awesome, all paper sorted in random order  [eek]. Very handy for an order app and people that like to scroll up and down to figure out what it is you have.

This website is a laugh, premium prices for tools, yet, to get the "fuel" for it, you need to fiddle around until you end up with RSI  [mad]

@festool fix your search engine, it's not that hard, really not. I know, your probably "scammed" by some fancy-pantsy it-company with hour rates going through the roof, telling you its impossible or will charge you insane amount of $$$. But it shouldn't be hard and not cost a fortune. Put your CTO to work.

You would expect that an outstanding tool company like FT would have a dito website, guess not.

[rant ends]

This is simply ridiculous and utterly frustrating.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 990
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2019, 04:16 AM »

(...)

I can see that for brick and mortar stores on a self service base by providing a shelf with open boxes. But not as "service" and priced accordingly for online retail.

It's already been done by countless webshops all over the net for many types of articles. Nothing new here, and fulfilling a typical order takes just minutes in a well set up organisation. There are for instance websites where you can order every single Lego brick in any quantity they have. Much more complicated than just a few sheets of sandpaper and yet they manage while not being an international multi-million dollar company like Festool. And it's not a stand alone operation, everything is connected, having sandpaper easily available will make it easier for people to justify buying an expensive sander. Or two.

No person would be involved,  automated dispenser for this would be straightforward.  They probably don't have to look any further than the plant where the paper is made to find the machines all ready existing or the bits to put a setup together. 

Exactly.

(...)


I see where you two are coming from. Imaginable? Yes! Personally, I don't see it.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1152
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2019, 06:06 AM »
"now, with their new design, I just don't even bother anymore. The site is sloooooow, everything is hidden behind 30 layers of interface, and lots of stuff simply isn't there."

But it's pretty, and that's what counts.

"having sandpaper easily available will make it easier for people to justify buying an expensive sander. Or two"

I have to agree with that. Every time I have thought about purchasing a Festool sander I have weighed my limited sources of consumables compared to other brand sanders.

For me the closest brick and mortar store is 35 miles away, so if I need something today it's a one hour drive each way plus a $5 bridge toll, so about $20 round trip just to get some sandpaper. I can of course order online, but since there is not "get it today" option on Amazon or elsewhere, that doesn't help if I need it now.

It would be nice if ToolNut or someone else could develop a sub-site where people could go and order just what they want in the quantities they want. How big is the selection of various grits, papers, sizes? A couple hundred items maybe.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 06:21 AM by Bob D. »
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Offline Alex

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Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2019, 07:03 AM »
Any website comes to mind that do this for FT sand paper ?  [tongue]

Nope.

I need to sand 15 large windows/doors (with glass) (~ 800x2000 metric) and I have not a clue how much I need. Add to that, I have not a clue what grit to start. I would just want to buy 10 of each for the whole range (P80 - P240 or so) and see what works.

I do this all day, more often than I'd actually like. I'd be able to paint most of your house's woodwork with one 50 piece pack of P80 and one of P180. €50 of Indasa paper, and done.

For the DTS I probably need P120, P150 and P180 (to start with). Awesome only comes in 100 pieces per boxes, 150+ EUR. I don't mind spending it, if there is a need for it.

There are 10 packs of P120 and P180. No need for P150.

Is there any rule of thumb how long a piece of Granat actually lasts (when doing windows)? I mean: do I need to count with 1 piece  (avg) per window or can you do 5?

Depends on what you sand, so there is no rule. Water based paints tend to gum up your paper a lot sooner than oil based. Sanding putty or plaster also gums up your paper much quicker.

This is really amature hour. A search engine that can not search and was clearly never tested.

It is, but as said by Bob, it looks nice!

Seems to me their current philosophy is to treat their website more as a brochure than as a knowledge base.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6130
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2019, 09:17 AM »
Anywhere a simple overview which grids and quantity are available per type and machine?

The only overview that I know of is near the last few pages of the Festool catalog. It's 4 pages long and highlights the sander, grit size, quantity, part number & price. Interestingly enough, they no longer list 10-packs so maybe they're no longer offering them.

As far as purchasing goes, Bob Marino used to let you select your own in quantities of 10 each, however I can't find that option on the BIS website.
https://beavertools.com/festool-24/accessories/abrasives.html

As mentioned Festool Nirvana allows customization.
https://www.festoolnirvana.com/collections/top-sellers/products/festoolnirvana-fnc-gr-50-custom-abrasive-assortments-granat-50pcs

Woodcraft used to let you choose your own, then they went the variety sample pack route and now even that option is done.  [sad]

Edit:
Found this on the Festool website:
https://www.festoolusa.com/knowledge/abrasives
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 09:26 AM by Cheese »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6023
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2019, 12:41 PM »
Found this on the Festool website:
https://www.festoolusa.com/knowledge/abrasives

That's a nice find. I tried to find the same page on the Dutch website, but I can't.

Notice how there's no Saphir listed for the RAS, while Festool says they will support any tools with parts and consumables for 10 years.

Online ear3

  • Posts: 3800
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2019, 01:42 PM »
Oh look, they included for the NA market 100 grit granat for the RTS in the new net abrasives -- but still no regular 100 grit Granat.  I swear to God this is driving me crazy.


Anywhere a simple overview which grids and quantity are available per type and machine?

The only overview that I know of is near the last few pages of the Festool catalog. It's 4 pages long and highlights the sander, grit size, quantity, part number & price. Interestingly enough, they no longer list 10-packs so maybe they're no longer offering them.

As far as purchasing goes, Bob Marino used to let you select your own in quantities of 10 each, however I can't find that option on the BIS website.
https://beavertools.com/festool-24/accessories/abrasives.html

As mentioned Festool Nirvana allows customization.
https://www.festoolnirvana.com/collections/top-sellers/products/festoolnirvana-fnc-gr-50-custom-abrasive-assortments-granat-50pcs

Woodcraft used to let you choose your own, then they went the variety sample pack route and now even that option is done.  [sad]

Edit:
Found this on the Festool website:
https://www.festoolusa.com/knowledge/abrasives
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6130
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2019, 02:37 PM »
Notice how there's no Saphir listed for the RAS, while Festool says they will support any tools with parts and consumables for 10 years.

Ya I noticed that Alex...they used to offer Saphir in 24, 36, 50 & 80 grit.  [sad] [sad]

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2019, 03:15 PM »
Festool says that they will have spare parts.  They do not state that they will have consumables.

Peter

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1152
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2019, 06:09 AM »
I wonder are there any consumables that can not be obtained from other sources should FT drop them.
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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6023
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2019, 06:21 AM »
I wonder are there any consumables that can not be obtained from other sources should FT drop them.

I have found and tried so many different types of sandpaper over the last 10 years, and for almost anything there is a good equivalent or alternative for Festool paper.

Except for Saphir, I have never seen a paper from any other source that can match that. There is a paper by Flexovit that comes very close but is still not as strong and durable as Saphir.

For the angle grinder there are fiber discs that are just as strong or even stronger than Saphir, but I consider that a different category of tools. Those discs don't have a velcro backing but are tied down with a nut.

Since the RAS is by design the sander for rough work, it should always have saphir quality paper on it.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1152
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2019, 07:50 AM »
"Since the RAS is by design the sander for rough work, it should always have saphir quality paper on it."

Interesting, as I don't believe my RAS didn't come with any Saphir, only Rubin
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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6023
Re: Festool sandpaper packaging "madness" :o
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2019, 12:01 PM »
"Since the RAS is by design the sander for rough work, it should always have saphir quality paper on it."

Interesting, as I don't believe my RAS didn't come with any Saphir, only Rubin

They offer two types of paper for the RAS, Saphir and Rubin. Since I always use it for paint prep I always load it with Saphir, mostly P50. Saphir is a lot more durable than Rubin.

In the other RAS thread I read that Festool found that people in the US use the RAS quite differently than people over here in Europe.